Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[NoOtherPersona]

That's a very extreme reaction isn't it?

We're not allowed to discuss these things without you wanting to leave?

It seems to me like you're the one playing the victim card.

High key this is a very touchy subject matter best left other place's then the thread last thing we need is a heated discussion this is for isaac Golden Sun and Smash that's all this thread should ever be

 

[Sabrewulf238]

High key this is a very touchy subject matter best left other place's then the thread last thing we need is a heated discussion this is for isaac Golden Sun and Smash that's all this thread should ever be

I agree. I just thought it was an extreme reaction to what had been a civilized discussion until then.

 

[NessAtc.]

Honestly guys we should have seen this coming

I mean Futaba's in, so Joker was just gonna come eventually

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

To the joker bros in the audience, seriously congrats guys. I’m not a persona fan myself. I’ve never played the series. But I saw a lot of passion, and a decent number of fans seriously pushing for him. So to those of you here, contrats.

As for what this means about the dlc or Isaac? This is actually a huge gain for us honestly. Their first character can be assumed to be their most “hype” character for the dlc cycle, at least to the more casual smash fandom. Similar to Mewtwo in 4. So we can safely assume some of the characters to follow will be relative unknowns to the more mainstream casual smash fandom. Aka Isaac.

But the biggest boon for us is the fact that Reggie’s wording on the matter implied two important things. 1- Each character needs to be a big surprise. Well...what’s a bigger surprise than an assist making the leap? And 2- each character needs to be representing a new franchise for smash. Isaac repping golden sun still remains one of the largest first party series without a playable character.

For the first time in a whole month. I have genuine hope and passion for Isaac again. This information relit the sparks for me. I would rate Isaacs likelihood at a 40% right now. But that’s up MASSIVLEY from a miserable 1% or 2% I was riding on all month. This is one of the best outcomes I could habe realistically hoped for, honestly.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

So please stop this agenda of yours. (Sorry for double posting).

Yeah agreed with everyone else, get that **** out of here. Let's behave like adults. If you have something to say you can come right out and say it respectfully, or leave. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Anyways back on topic: I probably won't be able to play until tomorrow very busy day at work and then an end of year company party tonight but at least my girlfriend confirmed that Smash has arrived at the house, haha.

 

[Undella2]

Me earlier: yeah whatever joker whatevs

Me now: *bobs head to the tune of Last Surprise*

 

[GoodGrief741]

Woo boy this is certainly a topic and I wish I could speak my mind but I don’t want this place to get locked arghhh my principles hurt sorry to anyone that might be feeling harassed or attacked let me send you a virtual hug okay carrying on.

Also our man KoopaSaki is rep'ing the Isaac fans right now.
Send him your energy.

Errr sure. *makes Spirit Bomb pose* What’s he repping us at?

Joker, eh?

Can someone give me a quick rundown on who he(?) is?

The leader of the Phantom Thieves, a group of rogues who steal the corrupted desires of wicked folk in Tokyo.

It’s definitely a game with flair.

What larger company is the Persona series owned by, anyways?

We probably shouldn't expect more than one DLC character from any major non-Nintendo studio...

*insert SEEEGAAA soundbyte*

At least the announcer's now a playable character.

Huh? Joker is the announcer?

 

[tbuster766]

To the joker bros in the audience, seriously congrats guys. I’m not a persona fan myself. I’ve never played the series. But I saw a lot of passion, and a decent number of fans seriously pushing for him. So to those of you here, contrats.

As for wht this means about the dlc or Isaac? This is actually a huge gain for us honestly. Their first character can be assumed to be their most “hype” character for the dlc cycle, at least to the more casual smash fandom. Similar to Mewtwo in 4. So we can safely assume some of the characters to follow will be relative unknowns to the more mainstream casual smash fandom. Aka Isaac.

But the biggest boon for us is the fact that Reggie’s wording on the matter implied two important things. 1- Eqch character needs to be a big surprise. Well...what’s a bigger surprise than an assist making the leap? And 2- each character needs to be representing a new franchise for smash. Isaac repping golden sun still remains one of the largest first party series without a playable character.

For the first time in a whole months. I have genuine hope and passion for Isaac again. This information relit the sparks for me. I would rate Isaacs likelihood at a 40% right now. But that’s up MASSIVLEY from a miserable 1% or 2% I was riding on all month. This is one of the best outcomes I could habe realistically hoped for, honestly.

That's reassuring at the very least I'll say that.

 

[LuminoZero]

This man was in my GameStop
Wise one bless him pic.twitter.com/CobgHbnSk3

— Gay Exhaustion (@Wulphire) December 7, 2018

 

[NessAtc.]

This man was in my GameStop
Wise one bless him pic.twitter.com/CobgHbnSk3

— Gay Exhaustion (@Wulphire) December 7, 2018

yup we found our KoopaSaki
good on him

 

[TheBrainJem]

Honestly I think people would be surprised at the kind of stuff that flies here in Japan. It's not at all uncommon to see Japanese actors in blackface on TV, and the "Okama" homosexual trope is still played for laughs all the damn time. It's pretty gross.

With that said, having not read the stuff you linked, I never got the feeling that Atlus/Persona specifically was pushing some kind of anti-LGBT agenda? I heard about the ending of Catherine and that was definitely pretty bad, but I think it lines up with the general homophobia/transphobia that's pretty common in Japan. I'm not saying that to give them a pass, just to say that it's (sadly) not something exclusive to Persona, and you also have to weigh the fact that Kanji, one of the main characters from Persona 4, is canonically gay and (to my mind) was treated fairly respectfully and with actual nuance, by Japanese standards anyway.

That is to say, you're not wrong by any means, and I'm not trying to whataboutism this, but Cloud in Final Fantasy VII also cross-dressed as a woman in a brothel, nearly got sexually assaulted, and Barret is a pretty yikes black stereotype, but it was still cool to see Cloud join the fray in Smash. I think it's OK for people to be excited about Joker being in and it's also OK to feel as you do as well. I just wanted to add in my two cents there and say that I don't think it's quite as black and white as "Atlus hates LGBT." To my knowledge at least they're not on Chic-Fil-A's level at least where they're actively donating to hate groups.

EDIT: as for some of the fans of Atlus' games being pretty toxic, no argument there. But I'm not sure how that reflects on the company themselves. Rick and Morty fans, Kingdom Hearts fans, Call of Duty fans, etc. etc. all have VERY vocal and obnoxious and awful segments of their fanbases but I don't think it's fair to pin that on the company unless it's something that they actively stoke.

EDIT 2: Just because I didn't make it clear in my original post: what I'm getting at is that Japan is a different culture with a different history and different values and we can't judge them by 2018 Western liberal values. That goes without saying, of course. But the progressive movement in the United States and the widespread acceptance of LGBTQ+ individuals in North America and Europe is a VERY recent and far from complete phenomenon, and it just takes time. Japan is still a pretty homogeneous place (not as much as people think but that's another story) with a lot of very conservative worldviews when it comes to stuff like this. I do my best to engage my Japanese friends in conversation about this stuff or call out things that offend me when I see them, but it's slow going.

Since this is a fairly long post and I don't want to go off topic I'll just make bullet points:

>Yeah, I've seen that, I remember the blackface new years thing and it was foul.

> Catherine is the most notable example, but there is many examples throughout almost all Atlus games that basically go even worse, one from persona specifically being the persona 4 game's character Naoto who is specifically coded as a transgender man, and is a perfect example of how they actively discriminate against LGBTQ+ people in their games (specifically trans people in this case). I recommend reading that article to get the full picture as it list the instances of that in multiple games.

>As I mentioned, one somewhat decently done representation in a game is kinda overshadowed when the other ones are so blatently not and are very discriminatory (as I mentioned with Naoto, who is also from persona 4). It's the equivalent of giving a dog a treat while still yanking on its collar and hurting it on it's walk, any good intent or small praise is ruined by the abuse given at the same time.

>Cloud crossdressing isn't really problematic, crossdressers and trans people aren't the same thing, and people crossdress for many reasons, trans people can also crossdress too it's not something exclusive to CIS people. I won't deny Barret thing though for being a blatent stereotype. Personally I like poison from street fighter/final fight who is a stereotype of trans woman, but I still find enjoyment for her character and everything. It's once again not wrong to like certain things (I made it clear in my earlier post), but it is however wrong to push a hateful message in those thing. Poison or Barret can be stereotypes but if people from this groups like those characters still that's fine, it's only problematic when they are being use to push a hateful agenda or something.

>I did say "apparently" for the news regarding in house discrimation at Atlus against LGBTQ+ people as people are still looking into it. And once again even if it's the culture for this to be common place ( which still doesn't justify it since bigotry is something that's part of every culture and is wrong in every culture) if Atlus constantly does that **** on their games it's safe to say they are promoting it out of their own ideals and values, otherwise there wouldn't be an example in almost all their games.

> The problem with that is where the Rick and Morty fans making problems about scezhuan sauce or whatever came from their own thing (it's not like Rick raided McDonald's or cause riots to get it), the thing with how some Atlus fans acted was cause of what was being pushed in the actual games itself. I remember clearly when Cathrine came and the knowledge that a character in it was a trans woman, some "fans" went raiding the wikis calling her a "mentally ill man" and hateful shot like that, and that steams nor just from their own hatefulness, but also from the game treating the character the same way. And since stuff like that keeps happening in their games, yeah, they kinda are stoking the flames :/

>History and everything is irrelevant to that. We live in a day and age where people around the world can interact with almost no Barriers thanks to the internet and everything. It's not "2018 liberal values" it's basic respect morality and understandment should be universal to everyone no matter what circumstances or anything. And like it was said, all cultures have bigotry in one way or another in their roots and history. Doesn't justify seeping into a modern day era. I know tons f people in japan who are part of marginalized groups who have been around for a long time and have experienced discrimination and ****, just the same as my friends in America going through the same ****. Regardless of culture or history or time, hate is hate, and should not be promoted. That's just common sense. And from what I've seen, Atlus has been really stubborn and holding onto that hate. Once again, people can still. Enjoy the character and the games etc, just remember to recognize when the company behind it is doing something that is obviously wrong and be called our for it so they can change for the better.


That's all I'll say about that now since I don't want to get off topic again, but if you (or anyone else) still want to talk I'm free to dm.

Otherwise this is done

 

[ZelDan]

Playing through Ultimate now. Still have to get used to this game's physics and overall feel. It's fun.

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

Since this is a fairly long post and I don't want to go off topic I'll just make bullet points:

>Yeah, I've seen that, I remember the blackface new years thing and it was foul.

> Catherine is the most notable example, but there is many examples throughout almost all Atlus games that basically go even worse, one from persona specifically being the persona 4 game's character Naoto who is specifically coded as a transgender man, and is a perfect example of how they actively discriminate against LGBTQ+ people in their games (specifically trans people in this case). I recommend reading that article to get the full picture as it list the instances of that in multiple games.

>As I mentioned, one somewhat decently done representation in a game is kinda overshadowed when the other ones are so blatently not and are very discriminatory (as I mentioned with Naoto, who is also from persona 4). It's the equivalent of giving a dog a treat while still yanking on its collar and hurting it on it's walk, any good intent or small praise is ruined by the abuse given at the same time.

>Cloud crossdressing isn't really problematic, crossdressers and trans people aren't the same thing, and people crossdress for many reasons, trans people can also crossdress too it's not something exclusive to CIS people. I won't deny Barret thing though for being a blatent stereotype. Personally I like poison from street fighter/final fight who is a stereotype of trans woman, but I still find enjoyment for her character and everything. It's once again not wrong to like certain things (I made it clear in my earlier post), but it is however wrong to push a hateful message in those thing. Poison or Barret can be stereotypes but if people from this groups like those characters still that's fine, it's only problematic when they are being use to push a hateful agenda or something.

>I did say "apparently" for the news regarding in house discrimation at Atlus against LGBTQ+ people as people are still looking into it. And once again even if it's the culture for this to be common place ( which still doesn't justify it since bigotry is something that's part of every culture and is wrong in every culture) if Atlus constantly does that **** on their games it's safe to say they are promoting it out of their own ideals and values, otherwise there wouldn't be an example in almost all their games.

> The problem with that is where the Rick and Morty fans making problems about scezhuan sauce or whatever came from their own thing (it's not like Rick raided McDonald's or cause riots to get it), the thing with how some Atlus fans acted was cause of what was being pushed in the actual games itself. I remember clearly when Cathrine came and the knowledge that a character in it was a trans woman, some "fans" went raiding the wikis calling her a "mentally ill man" and hateful shot like that, and that steams nor just from their own hatefulness, but also from the game treating the character the same way. And since stuff like that keeps happening in their games, yeah, they kinda are stoking the flames :/

>History and everything is irrelevant to that. We live in a day and age where people around the world can interact with almost no Barriers thanks to the internet and everything. It's not "2018 liberal values" it's basic respect morality and understandment should be universal to everyone no matter what circumstances or anything. And like it was said, all cultures have bigotry in one way or another in their roots and history. Doesn't justify seeping into a modern day era. I know tons f people in japan who are part of marginalized groups who have been around for a long time and have experienced discrimination and ****, just the same as my friends in America going through the same ****. Regardless of culture or history or time, hate is hate, and should not be promoted. That's just common sense. And from what I've seen, Atlus has been really stubborn and holding onto that hate. Once again, people can still. Enjoy the character and the games etc, just remember to recognize when the company behind it is doing something that is obviously wrong and be called our for it so they can change for the better.


That's all I'll say about that now since I don't want to get off topic again, but if you still want to talk I'm free to dm.

Otherwise this is done

Hey friend, thanks for the in-depth reply. I think our views line up pretty closely actually, I just wanted to put in my two cents and hopefully offer up a different perspective. Agreed on basically all counts and I was not by any means trying to be an apologist for dumb racist/homophobic stuff that happens in Japan, just pointing out that Atlus is part of a wider culture (and honestly industry) where those issues are barely recognized at all and unlikely to receive any flak for it in their domestic market.

Yeah let's not derail the thread any more, but again I appreciate you taking the time. I wish more online discussions could be this civil haha.

 

[tbuster766]

This man was in my GameStop
Wise one bless him pic.twitter.com/CobgHbnSk3

— Gay Exhaustion (@Wulphire) December 7, 2018

Our boy!

 

[Undella2]

And, uh, one last thing I need to say before I'll revert back to mostly Isaac talk....

I can't believe they added Robin and Joker into smash before Batman. /s

 

[Isaac for Smash Pls]

I just hope it's the Mark Hamill Joker and not Heath Ledger or Jared Leto versions. Guess we gotta wait for the gameplay trailer to find out.

 

[Nazyrus]

Huh? Joker is the announcer?

Yep, Xander Mobus

 

[LegendOfDragoon]

Huh? Joker is the announcer?

Joker and Arsene, his persona, is voiced by Xander Mobus the announcer

 

[GoodGrief741]

And, uh, one last thing I need to say before I'll revert back to mostly Isaac talk....

I can't believe they added Robin and Joker into smash before Batman. /s

Black Shadow confirmed.

Yep, Xander Mobus

Joker and Arsene, his persona, is voiced by Xander Mobus the announcer

Huh, didn’t know. That guy’s versatile.

 

[Xenigma]

Finally stopped playing for the night (got stuff to do in the morning sadly). World of Light has been fun: got very few actual characters so far but did get Andy in there, plus Matthew off the Spirit Board for my first GS spirit! Definitely enjoying my time so far.

 

[LegendOfDragoon]

On another note I have to quit my search for Isaac's mii costume, but I did get the Mia Spirit, so there's that

 

[ZelDan]

First Mii outfit I got was Isabelle's, then immediately got the Champion Link costume.

Get outta here you two, you're already playable!

 

[Sentinel07]

Woo boy this is certainly a topic and I wish I could speak my mind but I don’t want this place to get locked arghhh my principles hurt sorry to anyone that might be feeling harassed or attacked let me send you a virtual hug okay carrying on.



Errr sure. *makes Spirit Bomb pose* What’s he repping us at?



The leader of the Phantom Thieves, a group of rogues who steal the corrupted desires of wicked folk in Tokyo.

It’s definitely a game with flair.



*insert SEEEGAAA soundbyte*



Huh? Joker is the announcer?

Yep. Xander Mobus voices both Joker and the Announcer (plus Master Hand obviously).

 

[KoopaSaki]

Here’s a photo from the smash launch guys. I was proud to represent the golden boi. I even met other golden sun fans and they were so amazed! We might just get new support soon.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Here’s a photo from the smash launch guys. I was proud to represent the golden boi. I even met other golden sun fans and they were so amazed! We might just get new support soon. View attachment 182056

This is, without a doubt, the most beautiful thing I’ve seen all day. Keep it up man, we need more people like you putting yourself out there for Isaac’s and Golden Sun’s sake.

 

[Geildus]

Here’s a photo from the smash launch guys. I was proud to represent the golden boi. I even met other golden sun fans and they were so amazed! We might just get new support soon. View attachment 182056

You’ve actually gave me hope again, keep it up man!

 

[JaidynReiman]

I honestly believe Isaac is in a good position after this, though part of me worries about Reggie's statement being rather literal. But regardless, AT's getting promoted certainly fits in line with Reggie's comment and I have massive doubts about Nintendo not getting any first-party DLC characters at all.

 

[Pandorum]

Here’s a photo from the smash launch guys. I was proud to represent the golden boi. I even met other golden sun fans and they were so amazed! We might just get new support soon. View attachment 182056

Awesome! Just awesome!! Thumps up!!

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Looks like assist trophies can be grabbed, pummeled and thrown too. Very interesting

Here’s a photo from the smash launch guys. I was proud to represent the golden boi. I even met other golden sun fans and they were so amazed! We might just get new support soon. View attachment 182056

I'm so proud of you man keep it up, one of my Twitter followers even spotted you

 

[Tetiro]

I honestly believe Isaac is in a good position after this, though part of me worries about Reggie's statement being rather literal. But regardless, AT's getting promoted certainly fits in line with Reggie's comment and I have massive doubts about Nintendo not getting any first-party DLC characters at all.

Reggie's comments? What comments were those?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Reggie's comments? What comments were those?

"These are going to be characters that are new to the series, just like Joker from Persona 5, characters you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate."

What Reggie said right after the reveal. The context is playable, so my assumption is he's only talking about playable characters here. If you take it very literally it means nobody in Ultimate, but I honestly don't think its going to be exactly that. Its only slightly worrying, but again, the context is referring to playable characters, and Isaac fits all the right criteria outlined. I also have doubts every single DLC fighter will be third-party as well.

 

[amazonevan19]

This game has been the game to break all fan rules. No one's ever been promoted from AT to playable in the same Smash game.,,maybe Isaac can change that?

As a Grinch believer, I was psyched for Isaac finally getting what he deserves after all this time, but like my most wanted, Shadow, Isaac got done dirty. Hardcore.

Here's to Shadow and Isaac getting the prize, this game or the next. My bet is that if there's even a glimmer of hope for either of them for Ultimate, it'll be in a hypothetical wave 2 of DLC. Perhaps the backlash after the last Direct showed Nintendo they've made a mistake. Wouldn't count on it but we can hope!

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Personally I think all five of the DLC characters are going to be third parties. I don't see why we can't take Reggie literally on this.

My only real hope for Isaac being playable in this game now is if we get a second batch of dlc characters. (and it ends up being a "tying up loose ends" sort of deal)

 

[Tetiro]

Personally I think all five of the DLC characters are going to be third parties. I don't see why we can't take Reggie literally on this.

My only real hope for Isaac being playable in this game now is if we get a second batch of dlc characters. (and it ends up being a "tying up loose ends" sort of deal)

I'm thinking this too but you know what, if the all of the DLC were as fantastic as Joker, then this would be one case of me being completely okay with Isaac, Geno etc not being in Smash as playable. This is a great runner up prize

 

[Q-Long]

I have honestly given up on series like Golden Sun, Rhythm Heaven, Advance Wars, Custom Robo, etc. getting characters. If Rex and Springman can't even make it, how can they? ;-;

All I can hope for now is interesting third party characters. Joker is interesting because he is not the mascot of his series, not old / established enough to have reached gaming legend status like Snake, Cloud, or Megaman and has little Nintendo presence which Bayonetta has. (Though he is just as hot ;0)

This, combined the facts that Sakurai stressed Nintendo made the DLC choices and Reggie stressed that this DLC season will be "unexpected" means the speculation cycle will be definitely unpredictable. Heck, "unexpected" rules out Fire Emblem and Pokemon. Unexpected also lines up with this fighting game trend of including wtf characters like the dude from Walking Dead in Tekken.

Some big games coming out next year:

Resident Evil 2 Remake - Leon
Devil May Cry 5 - Dante
Kingdom Hearts 3 - Sora
Shenmue 3 - Ryo
Dragon Quest Builders 2 - Erdrick?
Shin Yakuza - Kazuma Kiryu or the new guy Ichiban
Sekiro - The dude from Sekiro or a Dark Souls character
Tales of Vesperia Remaster - Lloyd or Yuri
Ace Attorney Trilogy - Phoenix Wright
Daemon x Machina - Only Nintendo published game I see getting a character atm if we rule out FE and Pokemon
Streets of Rage IV - Axel

Sonic and Pokemon are also getting movie releases next year...

 

[JaidynReiman]

I'm thinking this too but you know what, if the all of the DLC were as fantastic as Joker, then this would be one case of me being completely okay with Isaac, Geno etc not being in Smash as playable. This is a great runner up prize

The problem is context. You generally don't take being "in Smash" literally because typically whenever you say "X is in Smash!" its always about being playable in Smash. Context is very important, and literally everybody says "in Smash" when referring to characters being playable.

 

[Q-Long]

The first one I spawned was also Isaac... in my first match with K. Rool.

I took a photo. What could have been.

Hope you guys are having fun with the game.

The bubble effect makes it look like he summoned King K Rool lol

 

[Flynn.Scifo]

OMG guys, while booting the game for the first time I recieved a spirit, is this random ? Because I got this ... just incredible ...

 

[Quetzal77]

This game is really fun. Man Isaac would be amazing to have in this.

I got him as an assist after like 3 summons, and it felt pretty nice to see him! He actually looks good in game imo and he's very flashy so I'm sure people that don't know him will want to look up who he is. I also have him as my gamer tag.

As for spirits, I've only seen Matthew and I failed his battle so unfortunately no GS characters on my side yet.

Really hoping that GS is on the radar for DLC, especially since their focus is on new franchises.

 

[Nauzgo]

Well my guess now is that we'll get 5 3rd party characters. Still rooting for our boi though.

But I think other big japanese franchises are more likely now, like a Koei Tecmo rep, Yokai Watch, DQ, KH, Tales of, Nier, DMC, RE or even Okami. Then again, Reggie said something like they will be surprising, so I'm clearly forgetting someone here lol.

Either way, I'm happy with Joker. He brings such a unique, special artstyle to the game. If the other DLC characters are on the same level, I'm okay with Isaac not being playable. I'll still be craving for GS4 though.