Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[TempestSurge]

Yeah it makes more sense to me for them to continue with the world and characters they already have. It's pretty clear that the Takahashi brothers had way more planned beyond Dark Dawn and I imagine that lore is still tucked away in their heads. Obviously it's gonna have to change a bit with the years between releases, but if they do it right I think it could work.

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Another interesting thing is that Mother 3 came out over ten years after Earthbound and still referenced plenty of characters and lore from EB (though the main story was only tangentially connected in many places). They also had the Mother 1+2 compilation 3 years before Mother 3, so if they were really serious about reviving Golden Sun they could do the same thing on Switch, given that Nintendo plans to keep the Switch alive for quite a while. This lines up with what a lot of other people have suggested where they remake the first two games before the main event comes along afterward. However, this does leave Dark Dawn hanging a bit, and if they were to have a remake I doubt they'd do DD without TBS and TLA. Lol I guess they could do GS1+2+3, but that's pretty farfetched (although it would be awesome). So maybe it's most likely that they just cut to the chase and make Golden Sun 4, but idk. Also, I feel like they wouldn't retcon DD. I know a lot of people have suggested this and would like it, but I feel like the Takahashi brothers consider DD to be part of their lore and they obviously had more planned for the current continuity. Feel free to disagree with any of this.

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"Backslash!" - Shulk
Sorry to pick on your typo, but that's where my brain went lol.

IIRC he just said he was worried about there being too many, which isn't quite outright saying that FE has too many characters. But yeah, he did acknowledge it.

I don't know where this idea of Sakurai choosing from a list came from, but Sakurai's tweet doesn't really say that there was anything like that.

Yeah I don't see the Takahashi brothers retconing Dark Dawn despite it coming off as the entry that seems to have the most critical reception from fans. Not to mention the imagery of them taking years to brainstorm and put the story and lore together for Golden Sun's 4 continuation only for them to stop and throw their hands up and scrap everything and pretend like the first part of Dark Dawn doesn't exist seems silly lol.

 

[Ninjaed]

Yeah I don't see the Takahashi brothers retconing Dark Dawn despite it coming off as the entry that seems to have the most critical reception from fans. Not to mention the imagery of them taking years to brainstorm and put the story and lore together for Golden Sun's 4 continuation only for them to stop and throw their hands up and scrap everything and pretend like the first part of Dark Dawn doesn't exist seems silly lol.

Not sure that's what people meant by retconning. It's just that DD introduced new lore elements (stuff that had been dormant for a looong time... yet had never been seen in the first game?) out of nowhere. Having them do some cameo or perhaps even take a small part in some bonus content would be "retconning" DD's lore into GS 1+2.

As for the remake... GS 1+2 would be the most sensible thing to do. Each lasts about 20-25h, add in some bonus content and you reach 60h. Dark Dawn would then be included in GS4, removing the need for any password shenanigans. It would give you the option to start after the events of DD though, provided you have a password from Dark Dawn (DD did give you one at the end, no?).

That way, they can gauge the marketing sensibility of the project with the easier made remake... then tackle the more controversial sequel if things are looking up. If not, pull the plug definitively without giving the series a closure.

 

[SPEN18]

Not sure that's what people meant by retconning

In this context, I think "retconning Dark Dawn" would mean pretending it never happened and continuing the story from after the Lost Age. It could also mean making a game that takes place many years before GS1 or many years after DD, as some have suggested, though that wouldn't necessarily "retcon" anything in DD.

Dark Dawn would then be included in GS4, removing the need for any password shenanigans. It would give you the option to start after the events of DD though, provided you have a password from Dark Dawn (DD did give you one at the end, no?).

AFAIK, Dark Dawn didn't have a password mechanic. Likely they assumed at the time that GS4 would be on the DS or 3DS, so you'd be able to transfer your data without a password. There's no guarantee that a GS4 that continues from Dark Dawn would even allow you to transfer data, though, especially if they used a different protagonist (say, Felix's child).

 

[Bladebreaker]

I don't know where this idea of Sakurai choosing from a list came from, but Sakurai's tweet doesn't really say that there was anything like that.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Note: "I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Pretty clear to me that he at least contributed to the final decision making process.

 

[SPEN18]

Note: "I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Pretty clear to me that he at least contributed to the final decision making process.

I never said that he doesn't contribute at all, just that his autonomy is very limited in the process.

Also that's the same tweet I've been citing in various posts, so we're dealing with different interpretations of the same source.

I think that the main disconnect is that people are focusing on that last sentence, whereas the sentence before it is much more clear-cut to me: "the selection was made entirely by Nintendo." He muddies the waters a little bit with the statement after it, but in my perception of it he's just saying that if Nintendo suggested some wacko character that isn't feasible to make, then Sakurai would advise them to pick someone else. But the important part is that Sakurai's decision is only based on [Nintendo's] selection. If he's given a character that Nintendo wants, he has no good reason to reject it unless he truly feels that character is nigh impossible to create. His input is mainly on the game dev end, telling the business people at Nintendo whether or not their choices are realistic. Basically, if your boss tells you "you should do this," then if you're going to tell them it's a bad idea, you should probably have a very good reason why. People have brought up that Sakurai technically doesn't work exclusively for Nintendo, but Nintendo is the one commissioning and publishing the project so ultimately they do have the power to restrict his character selection to any reasonable degree. Really, though, I don't think that Nintendo's and Sakurai's views of Smash would be so disparate that there'd be any issues with Nintendo picking the characters. If Nintendo gives him 5 characters that they want, Sakurai would have very few reasons not to go through with it.

 

[Nauzgo]

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate’s DLC line-up is now complete. This time the selection was made entirely by Nintendo. I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan.

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 6, 2018

Note: "I decide if we can create a fighter based on their selection, then come up with the plan."

Pretty clear to me that he at least contributed to the final decision making process.

It sounds to me like Sakurai had the chance to deny a character because he couldn't think of an appropriate moveset. I guess he wouldn't be able to deny like 10 characters because he wouldn't want them.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I never said that he doesn't contribute at all, just that his autonomy is very limited in the process.

Also that's the same tweet I've been citing in various posts, so we're dealing with different interpretations of the same source.

I think that the main disconnect is that people are focusing on that last sentence, whereas the sentence before it is much more clear-cut to me: "the selection was made entirely by Nintendo." He muddies the waters a little bit with the statement after it, but in my perception of it he's just saying that if Nintendo suggested some wacko character that isn't feasible to make, then Sakurai would advise them to pick someone else. But the important part is that Sakurai's decision is only based on [Nintendo's] selection. If he's given a character that Nintendo wants, he has no good reason to reject it unless he truly feels that character is nigh impossible to create. His input is mainly on the game dev end, telling the business people at Nintendo whether or not their choices are realistic. Basically, if your boss tells you "you should do this," then if you're going to tell them it's a bad idea, you should probably have a very good reason why. People have brought up that Sakurai technically doesn't work exclusively for Nintendo, but Nintendo is the one commissioning and publishing the project so ultimately they do have the power to restrict his character selection to any reasonable degree. Really, though, I don't think that Nintendo's and Sakurai's views of Smash would be so disparate that there'd be any issues with Nintendo picking the characters. If Nintendo gives him 5 characters that they want, Sakurai would have very few reasons not to go through with it.

Thank you for this thorough explanation, that was needed.

It all comes down to "can I come up with a moveset for this character, no? then show me the next one", until Sakurai gets 5 satisfactory choices that work well with his design philosophy.

 

[TempestSurge]

Not sure that's what people meant by retconning. It's just that DD introduced new lore elements (stuff that had been dormant for a looong time... yet had never been seen in the first game?) out of nowhere. Having them do some cameo or perhaps even take a small part in some bonus content would be "retconning" DD's lore into GS 1+2.

As for the remake... GS 1+2 would be the most sensible thing to do. Each lasts about 20-25h, add in some bonus content and you reach 60h. Dark Dawn would then be included in GS4, removing the need for any password shenanigans. It would give you the option to start after the events of DD though, provided you have a password from Dark Dawn (DD did give you one at the end, no?).

That way, they can gauge the marketing sensibility of the project with the easier made remake... then tackle the more controversial sequel if things are looking up. If not, pull the plug definitively without giving the series a closure.

I just don't expect the Takahashi brothers to change a thing basically, even though Dark Dawn has more controversy around it. I expect Golden Sun 4 to pick up where Dark Dawn left off (with the previous games made available for catch up). The brothers seem to exhaust themselves to the brink when it comes to the story elements and creating the world of Golden Sun, and if takes a long time for them to just put story/plot ideas together, and they've been brainstorming the past few years for the continuation of the story after Dark Dawn's end, then I don't see them being stopped by controversy or Nintendo scrapping 'Golden Sun 4' of what's already been brainstormed up to said point. Which is why I see remakes and a new Golden Sun 4 happening at the same time. Dark Dawn released several years after the first two so a Golden Sun 4 announcement popping up and getting released in the next two years or whatever would just kinda be the norm of how long it takes the brothers to work out the world and connect/create story elements.

 

[Ninjaed]

Oh, then no. Don't discard Dark Dawn, no no no. Have some of its lore elements be present in the remake but that's it. While I disagree with Matthew and Tyrell being copy/pastas of their dads, I was fine with the rest. Some characters could have used more development but nothing a remake can't take care of.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Man, I would love to see a grown-up/older Sveta. I hope that if she's in the next game they give her a badass design/feel like what I think of Piers.
That'd be amazing.
And Rief too; I wonder if they would go the Kraden-like sage route or make him do a 180° and turn into a more rugged adventurer with a scar on one of his eyes lol

I really want them to make DD 'work', if that makes sense. Getting rid of most of it would be a shame and I have to say I would be very disappointed.
Just thinking about a new game is getting me hyped, though.

 

[SonicLink125]

Ridiculous TinFoil Hat theory: Sakurai is an Otaku by heart which is why he's not fond of the Golden Sun style because it's not "anime" enough. The clothing in GS makes too much sense. It has to be ridiculous like 50 belts on a character or lots of zippers or non symmetrical clothing. Not stuff that adventurers actually would use.

Just a weird thought that's most likely untrue. It also makes me love the design of Golden Sun so much more. Especially Dark Dawn's design. It's not over the top and it's easy to cosplay while looking like you can wear it everyday. Matthew and (Adult) Isaac's outfits come to mind. They're just so cool to me!

 

[Silo777]

Updating the theory doc now.

Isaac’s assist just gives off that “last minute” vibe to me, like it’s something that wasn’t always planned. I think it’s the fact that it was shown at the last possible moment is what gets me. No other major ballot character was shown as an assist in that last direct except him. So why would they save their most requested first party character after Ridley and K Rool to the end instead of letting fans down easy like they did with literally everyone else. Every other returning assist was shown in the E3 or August direct. Isaac is the odd one out. The best explanation I can come up with other than Nintendo is a jerk is that it was a more recent decision. I think the reason Isaac seemed to pick up so much traction after the August direct with the Rathalos tweet, the trademark and all that is because some sort of decision was made regarding him. If they decided to make an assist for him in that timeframe, they’d have no other choice than to show it in the next and final direct.

Are you still with me here? Alright, let me ramble on for a bit more. So why would they make an assist so late in the game? Yeah Isaac is super popular, but it seems a bit random to decide on his assist a couple months from release. What if, and this is a big if, Isaac was planned for base at one point? Then it became very clear that there was absolutely no way he’d be done for base. Realizing that they bit off more than they could chew, they had to make some changes. I like to think his may have been a conversation at one point: “Forget it, push him into DLC we’ll finish him later, for now take what we have so far and make it into an assist! His movement animations aren’t done? I don’t know, make him teleport or something!” Then that brings up the question of why they would bother with the assist. Simply put, they pretty much have to. Other Golden Sun content is in the game like Felix and Matthew, if Isaac was mysteriously gone then people would think he’s a near lock.

It’s also possible they saw the massive jump Isaac had from the Rathalos Tweet and, while Isaac was DLC, thought Golden Sun fans might’ve been pissed if nothing substantial was in base after that, hence the assist.

I think I need to lay down, I’m going crazy.

 

[WaddleMatt]

Updating the theory doc now.

Isaac’s assist just gives off that “last minute” vibe to me, like it’s something that wasn’t always planned. I think it’s the fact that it was shown at the last possible moment is what gets me. No other major ballot character was shown as an assist in that last direct except him. So why would they save their most requested first party character after Ridley and K Rool to the end instead of letting fans down easy like they did with literally everyone else. Every other returning assist was shown in the E3 or August direct. Isaac is the odd one out. The best explanation I can come up with other than Nintendo is a jerk is that it was a more recent decision. I think the reason Isaac seemed to pick up so much traction after the August direct with the Rathalos tweet, the trademark and all that is because some sort of decision was made regarding him. If they decided to make an assist for him in that timeframe, they’d have no other choice than to show it in the next and final direct.

View attachment 178552

Are you still with me here? Alright, let me ramble on for a bit more. So why would they make an assist so late in the game? Yeah Isaac is super popular, but it seems a bit random to decide on his assist a couple months from release. What if, and this is a big if, Isaac was planned for base at one point? Then it became very clear that there was absolutely no way he’d be done for base. Realizing that they bit off more than they could chew, they had to make some changes. I like to think his may have been a conversation at one point: “Forget it, push him into DLC we’ll finish him later, for now take what we have so far and make it into an assist! His movement animations aren’t done? I don’t know, make him teleport or something!” Then that brings up the question of why they would bother with the assist. Simply put, they pretty much have to. Other Golden Sun content is in the game like Felix and Matthew, if Isaac was mysteriously gone then people would think he’s a near lock.

It’s also possible they saw the massive jump Isaac had from the Rathalos Tweet and, while Isaac was DLC, thought Golden Sun fans might’ve been pissed if nothing substantial was in base after that, hence the assist.

I think I need to lay down, I’m going crazy.

Its a nice theory but there is one flaw.

Piranha Plant.

Piranha Plant is likely DLC because he could not be completed for base as development has already been started. Why couldn't they do this for Isaac?

Unless both were planned and the plant had more work done I don't know about this one.

 

[SPEN18]

Its a nice theory but there is one flaw.

Piranha Plant.

Piranha Plant is likely DLC because he could not be completed for base as development has already been started. Why couldn't they do this for Isaac?

Unless both were planned and the plant had more work done I don't know about this one.

Are we 100% sure Piranha Plant was planned for base? It sounded like they had just began development on him, so maybe he was planned to be free DLC from the start. I can't remember if we got a definitive statement from Sakurai on this.

 

[SonicLink125]

Are we 100% sure Piranha Plant was planned for base? It sounded like they had just began development on him, so maybe he was planned to be free DLC from the start. I can't remember if we got a definitive statement from Sakurai on this.

Plus, if you consider this, Piranah Plant would be a much easier character to develop compared to Isaac. And it's a first for them to do a Limited Time Offer that they had a head start on.

 

[Silo777]

Its a nice theory but there is one flaw.

Piranha Plant.

Piranha Plant is likely DLC because he could not be completed for base as development has already been started. Why couldn't they do this for Isaac?

Unless both were planned and the plant had more work done I don't know about this one.

Alright, instead of making a logical reply, I’m going to go full nuts and say something probably dumb because that’s what I do best.

What if, after deciding Isaac would be DLC, they realized they now had some time on their hands. So, they decided to make a joke character for a DLC bonus. It wouldn’t be completely ready for release, but they might as well make something with all that time. There’s no way Isaac could’ve taken that place as the “buy the game get this character free” spot because people might get the wrong impression and think Isaac is done but they’re holding this super requested character behind a paywall.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Been a moment and a half since I’ve been around. What have I missed?

 

[Ninjaed]

If they were pressed for time, why give him new moves though? I don't think it was done that slapdash at all. It's highly possible they wanted to bring him back, then were taken aback by the Rathalos tweet event and thought "oh crap, they're gonna be mad pissed..." Because of that, they added some new moves to him to try and appease the Golden Sun Community because Isaaw wasn't going to be playable in the first place. I'd say this is the most likely scenario.

Another scenario is that they were planning to release Isaac, perhaps Shadow or Bandana Dee as DLC. All 3 scored highly enough on the ballot that their amiibos and DLC would sell. Once again, taken aback by the Rathalos tweet... the rest is the same, with the exception that Isaac becomes playable. This is the scenario I'd like the most.

If it's the former, please at least make Lloyd playable, or Amaterasu... She'd be such a great addition with her sundisk, her rosary and her many painting skills.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Hey guys, I updated the mock-up of the website. I'll work on it again later, but if someone wants to fill a few parts, go for it, that will be less work for me.

Remember: it's a mock-up, and the goal is to translate it into a real website later on the line; but that will come in a second part.

Looking better, definitely.

Its a nice theory but there is one flaw.

Piranha Plant.

Piranha Plant is likely DLC because he could not be completed for base as development has already been started. Why couldn't they do this for Isaac?

Unless both were planned and the plant had more work done I don't know about this one.

Piranha Plant was never planned to begin with, it was planned as DLC. And quite likely reuses assets already in the base game anyway. Some bosses are returning, and other bosses are seemingly reusing assets. We've seen Werewolf and King Bulblin on the "World of Light" preview entry, which could likely imply they are bosses... very possible that Petey Piranha also is, and Petey Piranha is literally just drawn from the returning boss model for Piranha Plant.

 

[Silo777]

If they were pressed for time, why give him new moves though? I don't think it was done that slapdash at all. It's highly possible they wanted to bring him back, then were taken aback by the Rathalos tweet event and thought "oh crap, they're gonna be mad pissed..." Because of that, they added some new moves to him to try and appease the Golden Sun Community because Isaaw wasn't going to be playable in the first place. I'd say this is the most likely scenario.

Believe me, none of what I say is the most likely scenario, I’m just proposing a possibility. As for the new moves, as I said, if the assist was made with what they currently had of Isaac, those moves could’ve been part of his moveset. I can imagine a neutral b move where you can input a direction right after you press it, and the move will change depending. Up for lift, down for pound, press no direction for move. Just upscale the moves and there you have it. Don’t you think it’s odd he’s the only one with new moves? That could explain it.

Another scenario is that they were planning to release Isaac, perhaps Shadow or Bandana Dee as DLC. All 3 scored highly enough on the ballot that their amiibos and DLC would sell. Once again, taken aback by the Rathalos tweet... the rest is the same, with the exception that Isaac becomes playable. This is the scenario I'd like the most.

I agree I’d love this scenario, if it’s true it shows that they care for us fans.

 

[Ninjaed]

Believe me, none of what I say is the most likely scenario, I’m just proposing a possibility. As for the new moves, as I said, if the assist was made with what they currently had of Isaac, those moves could’ve been part of his moveset. I can imagine a neutral b move where you can input a direction right after you press it, and the move will change depending. Up for lift, down for pound, press no direction for move. Just upscale the moves and there you have it. Don’t you think it’s odd he’s the only one with new moves? That could explain it.

I agree I’d love this scenario, if it’s true it shows that they care for us fans.

Pleasing the fans after the tweet is an explanation but... then what about Shadow? What about Waluigi? Those 2 didn't get touched at all. No one has been except Isaac. Just like how "we're pressed for time so let's give him new moves" was a huge hole in your logic, that only Isaac among the fan favourites got touched is one for mine. It can't be because Shadow is 3rd party, since Waluigi is fully owned by Nintendo and didn't fare any better. It can't be "balancing the trophies" because it's a non-issue. Starfy and Tingle are still useless while others are pretty OP.

All that remains is a very odd choice to modify a trophy's moveset when there really was no need to... No matter the scenario, Sakurai's team was pressed for time. Why dedicate some of that precious time to updating a trophy's moveset when they could've polished Chrom's model and animations for instance? It doesn't make much sense unless these moves had already been developed anyway.

 

[SonicLink125]

Believe me, none of what I say is the most likely scenario, I’m just proposing a possibility. As for the new moves, as I said, if the assist was made with what they currently had of Isaac, those moves could’ve been part of his moveset. I can imagine a neutral b move where you can input a direction right after you press it, and the move will change depending. Up for lift, down for pound, press no direction for move. Just upscale the moves and there you have it. Don’t you think it’s odd he’s the only one with new moves? That could explain it.

It's still strange to me that Isaac is the only AT to return (Gray Fox being the exception for obvious reasons). I still find it interesting that of all the characters you can easily shrug off as, "Fake leak", "Guess it wasn't meant to be for now.", etc., Isaac is the exception here and a special case. There's some weird things going on about him that hopefully we get official answers to. It could be nothing or it could mean anything. Still, I feel like anything Golden Sun related is coming soon. Be a game or DLC fighter.

My only wish is that we don't go too deep into this theory that we'll go insane and be crushed to learn that there was going to be nothing in the end.

 

[Silo777]

Pleasing the fans after the tweet is an explanation but... then what about Shadow? What about Waluigi? Those 2 didn't get touched at all. No one has been except Isaac. Just like how "we're pressed for time so let's give him new moves" was a huge hole in your logic, that only Isaac among the fan favourites got touched is one for mine. It can't be because Shadow is 3rd party, since Waluigi is fully owned by Nintendo and didn't fare any better. It can't be "balancing the trophies" because it's a non-issue. Starfy and Tingle are still useless while others are pretty OP.

All that remains is a very odd choice to modify a trophy's moveset when there really was no need to... No matter the scenario, Sakurai's team was pressed for time. Why dedicate some of that precious time to updating a trophy's moveset when they could've polished Chrom's model and animations for instance? It doesn't make much sense unless these moves had already been developed anyway.

There’s two major differences here that make them not really comparable. For one, both Waluigi and Shadow were assists in smash 4. This makes it much easier to just port them to smash ultimate and that’s that. With Isaac they most likely had to either pull from his unfinished playable version (if this is true) or make it from scratch. If they’re making it from scratch anyway, might as well add some stuff while you’re at it. It’s not like the moves are drastically different, they’re just variations on the same thing. The second difference is that both Waluigi and Shadow already have playable reps for their series. Golden Sun doesn’t, this assist is all we have right now. Because of that, it makes sense that they’d want to do something a bit special for us. I can see them putting that extra detail in as an apology of sorts that he wasn’t finished for base.

Also, if they did decide on Isaac being pushed back to DLC at around the Rathalos Tweet and trademark where it most likely was if this whole thing is true, that leaves them with more than two months to make a single assist trophy, that they might not even have to make from scratch. It seems like more than enough time.

Any way you slice it though, Isaac having new moves is suspicious. It shows they had to do some pretty good research on Golden Sun, considering both Pound and Lift are both represented accurately. Why go that extra mile for just an extra move or two for an assist? Unless...he’s more than that. *tinfoil hat intensifies*

 

[KoopaSaki]

There’s two major differences here that make them not really comparable. For one, both Waluigi and Shadow were assists in smash 4. This makes it much easier to just port them to smash ultimate and that’s that. With Isaac they most likely had to either pull from his unfinished playable version (if this is true) or make it from scratch. If they’re making it from scratch anyway, might as well add some stuff while you’re at it. It’s not like the moves are drastically different, they’re just variations on the same thing. The second difference is that both Waluigi and Shadow already have playable reps for their series. Golden Sun doesn’t, this assist is all we have right now. Because of that, it makes sense that they’d want to do something a bit special for us. I can see them putting that extra detail in as an apology of sorts that he wasn’t finished for base.

Also, if they did decide on Isaac being pushed back to DLC at around the Rathalos Tweet and trademark where it most likely was if this whole thing is true, that leaves them with more than two months to make a single assist trophy, that they might not even have to make from scratch. It seems like more than enough time.

Any way you slice it though, Isaac having new moves is suspicious. It shows they had to do some pretty good research on Golden Sun, considering both Pound and Lift are both represented accurately. Why go that extra mile for just an extra move or two for an assist? Unless...he’s more than that. *tinfoil hat intensifies*

Whoa there guys your starting to freak me out a bit. I honestly hope Isaac has a chance to get promoted to playable but this is all just theory. They probably just ported his brawl model over and added a few moves to it just to satisfy us golden sun fans a bit more after the ballot showed our demand. I think Isaac was planned for the AT right at the start unfortunately as other characters probably took priority.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The best way to go about things is don't expect much, and you won't be that disappointed. Unfortunately, most people ride their hopes on only one character, so this backfires more often than it should.

Piranha Plant was never planned to begin with, it was planned as DLC. And quite likely reuses assets already in the base game anyway. Some bosses are returning, and other bosses are seemingly reusing assets. We've seen Werewolf and King Bulblin on the "World of Light" preview entry, which could likely imply they are bosses... very possible that Petey Piranha also is, and Petey Piranha is literally just drawn from the returning boss model for Piranha Plant.

I find this interesting, because Sakurai went to all the trouble to have people possibly recreate Brawl assets from scratch, since Brawl was made all the way back in the Wii days. I sometimes wonder if all this asset retrieval was set up so that they would be easier to port over afterwards, should he plan to make an even bigger sequel at some point.

 

[SPEN18]

they most likely had to either pull from his unfinished playable version (if this is true) or make it from scratch

If they had already made a model for playable Isaac but later downgraded him to an AT, I think they'd use a completely different model with only a few reused assets. Otherwise it could look suspicious if only one AT has this drastically better model that looks like a PC's model. If this was true, it would explain why Isaac's model may look a little rushed.

I sometimes wonder if all this asset retrieval was set up so that they would be easier to port over afterwards, should he plan to make an even bigger sequel at some point.

On one hand, Sakurai seems to treat every game as if it's his last. On the other, it's generally good practice to design things in a way that's easily portable and can be reused for other stuff. So it's possible.

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And yeah, let's not completely drown ourselves in theories. It's fun and supports discussion, though, so have at it if you want I guess. Just don't convince yourself that the theory is the only possible explanation for everything.

 

[Silo777]

Whoa there guys your starting to freak me out a bit. I honestly hope Isaac has a chance to get promoted to playable but this is all just theory. They probably just ported his brawl model over and added a few moves to it just to satisfy us golden sun fans a bit more after the ballot showed our demand. I think Isaac was planned for the AT right at the start unfortunately as other characters probably took priority.

It can’t be the brawl model though. And if it is, it’s been changed so much that there’s no real point in porting it in the first place. Isaac was given special attention, he’s the only assist from brawl to come back (aside from gray fox who’s just back because snake is)

I realize it’s a crazy theory, it’s just for fun and something to think about though. It’s not like I fully expect it to come true.

 

[JaidynReiman]

It can’t be the brawl model though. And if it is, it’s been changed so much that there’s no real point in porting it in the first place. Isaac was given special attention, he’s the only assist from brawl to come back (aside from gray fox who’s just back because snake is)

I realize it’s a crazy theory, it’s just for fun and something to think about though. It’s not like I fully expect it to come true.

It's definitely not the Brawl model. It's vastly different. Isaac looks a lot taller for one. Now, it's not as clean as it could be, but there's no way it's just a slightly updated Brawl model. It barely even resembles that model at all.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Updating the theory doc now.

Isaac’s assist just gives off that “last minute” vibe to me, like it’s something that wasn’t always planned. I think it’s the fact that it was shown at the last possible moment is what gets me. No other major ballot character was shown as an assist in that last direct except him. So why would they save their most requested first party character after Ridley and K Rool to the end instead of letting fans down easy like they did with literally everyone else. Every other returning assist was shown in the E3 or August direct. Isaac is the odd one out. The best explanation I can come up with other than Nintendo is a jerk is that it was a more recent decision. I think the reason Isaac seemed to pick up so much traction after the August direct with the Rathalos tweet, the trademark and all that is because some sort of decision was made regarding him. If they decided to make an assist for him in that timeframe, they’d have no other choice than to show it in the next and final direct.

View attachment 178552

Are you still with me here? Alright, let me ramble on for a bit more. So why would they make an assist so late in the game? Yeah Isaac is super popular, but it seems a bit random to decide on his assist a couple months from release. What if, and this is a big if, Isaac was planned for base at one point? Then it became very clear that there was absolutely no way he’d be done for base. Realizing that they bit off more than they could chew, they had to make some changes. I like to think his may have been a conversation at one point: “Forget it, push him into DLC we’ll finish him later, for now take what we have so far and make it into an assist! His movement animations aren’t done? I don’t know, make him teleport or something!” Then that brings up the question of why they would bother with the assist. Simply put, they pretty much have to. Other Golden Sun content is in the game like Felix and Matthew, if Isaac was mysteriously gone then people would think he’s a near lock.

It’s also possible they saw the massive jump Isaac had from the Rathalos Tweet and, while Isaac was DLC, thought Golden Sun fans might’ve been pissed if nothing substantial was in base after that, hence the assist.

I think I need to lay down, I’m going crazy.

The truth is far more bleak. They think we like seeing our favorite fighter's trapped in magic snow globes.

 

[JaidynReiman]

The truth is far more bleak. They think we like seeing our favorite fighter's trapped in magic snow globes.

This isn't even close to the truth.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

This isn't even close to the truth.

Considering how shills, and those in the media say "Be grateful he's in the game at all" and or " Even being an AT is an honor" yeah...no....they do. lol

 

[ZelDan]

"We" as in NIntendo/Sakurai, or "we" as in other gamers/Smash fans?

I could definitely see NIntendo or Sakurai thinking that assist trophy status is a great thing and from their point pf view "hey your character is in the game, isn't that exciting!?" Honestly maybe they even feel that way about spirits.

Smash fans or anyone familiar with the series know how lame it is though.

 

[Gioka]

Are we 100% sure Piranha Plant was planned for base? It sounded like they had just began development on him, so maybe he was planned to be free DLC from the start. I can't remember if we got a definitive statement from Sakurai on this.

Development hasn't just begun for him because he will be done soon after launch and developing a character takes a year. That being said, I don't think PP was planned for base.

Alright, instead of making a logical reply, I’m going to go full nuts and say something probably dumb because that’s what I do best.

What if, after deciding Isaac would be DLC, they realized they now had some time on their hands. So, they decided to make a joke character for a DLC bonus. It wouldn’t be completely ready for release, but they might as well make something with all that time. There’s no way Isaac could’ve taken that place as the “buy the game get this character free” spot because people might get the wrong impression and think Isaac is done but they’re holding this super requested character behind a paywall.

I can see them thinking "well, we know Isaac is popular and people are willing to pay for him" if they did indeed hold him back for DLC, however the theory of "he was base but they decided to finish PP first!" just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I can see why making a joke character as bonus, but if you had time constraints for characters that are now pushed, why make the bonus in the first place? I would just keep development and that's it.

 

[tbuster766]

I agree. I love Fire Emblem and it's my No.1 favorite gaming franchise ever.....but it's seriously overrepresented right now.

There was no need for all 3 of Awakening's protagonists to be playable characters.

I have always rooted for more Fire Emblem characters...until I realized Sakurai gave them special treatment since smash wii u....

 

[osby]

I have always rooted for more Fire Emblem characters...until I realized Sakurai gave them special treatment since smash wii u....

Special treatment? You mean getting characters?

 

[Gioka]

Special treatment? You mean getting characters?

There was literally no reason to make the 3 of Awakening's main characters playable. I love Robin and Chrom, I think Lucina shouldn't have made it in and I think Chrom shouldn't be yet another echo, if they weren't going to bring anything unique, Robin was more than enough rep. And in 4 we not only got Lucina and Robin but Corrin and Roy made it back in so it felt a bit biased that FE got 2 out of 7 DLC slots

 

[osby]

There was literally no reason to make the 3 of Awakening's main characters playable. I love Robin and Chrom, I think Lucina shouldn't have made it in and I think Chrom shouldn't be yet another echo, if they weren't going to bring anything unique, Robin was more than enough rep. And in 4 we not only got Lucina and Robin but Corrin and Roy made it back in so it felt a bit biased that FE got 2 out of 7 DLC slots

Aside from Ken, none of the echoes bring anything new. Chrom was added because he was really requested, like Metroid (which already got a newcomer)

Lucina was initially only an alt costume. Presenting her as special treatment isn't a very good example.

Roy was only a veteran and they were all going to come back in this game anyway. And Corrin wasn't even picked by Sakurai, but was a suggestion by development team that he even initially opposed.

I think Fire Emblem got a lot of characters for relatively small series (not necessarily "too many"), but I don't really see a special treatment.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

There was literally no reason to make the 3 of Awakening's main characters playable. I love Robin and Chrom, I think Lucina shouldn't have made it in and I think Chrom shouldn't be yet another echo, if they weren't going to bring anything unique, Robin was more than enough rep. And in 4 we not only got Lucina and Robin but Corrin and Roy made it back in so it felt a bit biased that FE got 2 out of 7 DLC slots

Awakening was responsible for putting Fire Emblem back on the map. I'd say it deserved three characters. Plus, two of them are only low-resource clones, so I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Gioka]

Aside from Ken, none of the echoes bring anything new. Chrom was added because he was really requested, like Metroid (which already got a newcomer)

Lucina was initially only an alt costume. Presenting her as special treatment isn't a very good example.

Roy was only a veteran and they were all going to come back in this game anyway. And Corrin wasn't even picked by Sakurai, but was a suggestion by development team that he even initially opposed.

I think Fire Emblem got a lot of characters for relatively small series (not necessarily "too many"), but I don't really see a special treatment.

I know echoes don't bring anything new and that Chrom got in because he was requested, but he was requested that much due to the extremely poor treatment he got in the Smash 4 trailer tbh. Yes, Lucina was an alt costume, and maybe she should have stayed that way, I am not saying she is the only example, but what I mean is that we got 3 Fire Emblem newcomers in Smash for Wii U, and yes, Roy was a veteran, so was Wolf, for example, and he didn't make it back as paid DLC. And Corrin may not have been picked by Sakurai but made it in anyways. There is a certain bias towards Fire Emblem, perhaps because of the new iterations success to be tied to Smash (with Marth's and Roy's inclusion being the reason the series made it out of Japan to begin with). The point is, no other franchise got 3 newcomers (even if one was a clone) in Smash 4.Fire Emblem was the first franchise in this speculation cycle to get two songs in the page, for example. I think that is the special treatment we are talking about.

I love Fire Emblem but I understand why people are mad towards this "bias" because there are other popular franchises not being even addressed.


EDIT: I am aware of Awakening's success and its meaning for the FE franchise, and I know they are clones, but it doesn't mean people aren't mad about it, in fact, the clones is exactly one of the reasons why everyone is mad at FE reps.

 

[osby]

I know echoes don't bring anything new and that Chrom got in because he was requested, but he was requested that much due to the extremely poor treatment he got in the Smash 4 trailer tbh. Yes, Lucina was an alt costume, and maybe she should have stayed that way, I am not saying she is the only example, but what I mean is that we got 3 Fire Emblem newcomers in Smash for Wii U, and yes, Roy was a veteran, so was Wolf, for example, and he didn't make it back as paid DLC. And Corrin may not have been picked by Sakurai but made it in anyways. There is a certain bias towards Fire Emblem, perhaps because of the new iterations success to be tied to Smash (with Marth's and Roy's inclusion being the reason the series made it out of Japan to begin with). The point is, no other franchise got 3 newcomers (even if one was a clone) in Smash 4.Fire Emblem was the first franchise in this speculation cycle to get two songs in the page, for example. I think that is the special treatment we are talking about.

I love Fire Emblem but I understand why people are mad towards this "bias" because there are other popular franchises not being even addressed.


EDIT: I am aware of Awakening's success and its meaning for the FE franchise, and I know they are clones, but it doesn't mean people aren't mad about it, in fact, the clones is exactly one of the reasons why everyone is mad at FE reps.

"first franchise in this speculation cycle to get two songs in the page"?! I'm not even going to attempt at answering this. If people are mad about this, they really need to remind themselves the world doesn't turn around them.