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Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

Tetiro

Smash Ace
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Aug 5, 2011
Messages
877
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United Kingdom
It's got to be asked what on earth is going on over at Camelot? The lack of composer or music involvement (currently), Mario Golf World Tour sold badly (only found that out recently) and Mario Tennis Aces redeemed what a terrible game Mario Tennis Ultra Smash was

I really hope Camelot get back on their feet. As in the past couple of years only Mario Tennis Aces has been their killer title.

EDIT: In fact, if you look at their history, the number of titles they develop has heavily dwindled.

N64: Mario Golf / Mario Tennis
GBA: Golden Sun / Golden Sun: The Lost Age / Mario Golf: Advance Tour / Mario Tennis: Power Tour
GC: Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour / Mario Tennis: Power Tennis
Wii: We Love Golf! / Mario Power Tennis
DS: Golden Sun Dark Dawn (Yup! Dark Dawn was the only game they made for the DS)
3DS: Mario Golf: World Tour / Mario Tennis: Open / Mario Sports Superstars
Wii U: Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
Switch: Mario Tennis: Aces

I think Camelot might be having trouble hence the Golden Sun hell. Let's hope Mario Tennis Aces did enough to kick Camelot back up!
 
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hustler713

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
149
It's got to be asked what on earth is going on over at Camelot? The lack of composer or music involvement (currently), Mario Golf World Tour sold badly (only found that out recently) and Mario Tennis Aces redeemed what a terrible game Mario Tennis Ultra Smash was

I really hope Camelot get back on their feet. As in the past couple of years only Mario Tennis Aces has been their killer title.

EDIT: In fact, if you look at their history, the number of titles they develop has heavily dwindled.

N64: Mario Golf / Mario Tennis
GBA: Golden Sun / Golden Sun: The Lost Age / Mario Golf: Advance Tour / Mario Tennis: Power Tour
GC: Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour / Mario Tennis: Power Tennis
Wii: We Love Golf! / Mario Power Tennis
DS: Golden Sun Dark Dawn (Yup! Dark Dawn was the only game they made for the DS)
3DS: Mario Golf: World Tour / Mario Tennis: Open / Mario Sports Superstars
Wii U: Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash
Switch: Mario Tennis: Aces

I think Camelot might be having trouble hence the Golden Sun hell. Let's hope Mario Tennis Aces did enough to kick Camelot back up!
camelot is a small studio. I'm pretty sure that a new Golden Sun would be codeveloped by Monolith or Bandai or some of the other Studios that usually help out developing nintendo games from other Studios.

Golden Sun Games are big Games in terms of scope.
 
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KoopaSaki

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
559
Do you think nintendo is aware of our demand for golden sun 4 given how much request he has gotten for smash bros and our recent golden Sunday campaign? Just how likely is it they know somethings up?
 

?!?!?!

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 9, 2018
Messages
585
Do you think nintendo is aware of our demand for golden sun 4 given how much request he has gotten for smash bros and our recent golden Sunday campaign? Just how likely is it they know somethings up?
I'm sure they're at least aware of it. The question is, was it enough to get them to take action? Time will tell :)
 

Tetiro

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Messages
877
Location
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Do you think nintendo is aware of our demand for golden sun 4 given how much request he has gotten for smash bros and our recent golden Sunday campaign? Just how likely is it they know somethings up?
Enough to notice. But enough to acknowledge? That will come as we do more Golden Sundays and make it a known thing
 

TempestSurge

Smash Ace
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Oct 20, 2014
Messages
832
Is it really Nintendo holding the Golden Sun IP back or is it more on the Takahashi brothers? I feel it's the latter. They never said anything about Nintendo putting pressure on them after Dark Dawn or anything (the sequel was even allowed despite the many years between the first two games). It's unlike what happened with FE where the head developer was told by Nintendo that if Awakening bombed, it was over. The brothers just state how taxing it is to produce an RPG like Golden Sun but if the fans asked they'd get to work on another one despite that... and then nothing. It was their decision, not Nintendo making a statement for them.

One of the Camelot bosses recently even spoke of wanting to do another Shining Force and that requires working with Sega (and that games been out of the spotlight longer than Golden Sun's last game). We're completely in the dark when it comes to Golden Sun and if anyone on Camelot has similar wishes to bring it back.

It's much easier for Nintendo to invest in a new IP altogether than to force the brothers to make Golden Sun if they're not feeling it or throw the IP to some other studio just to have another game for the sake of it and have fans hate it cause it turned into something that's unrecognizable. I feel like if the Takahashi brothers approached Nintendo and stated they were on board to want to continue Golden Sun, Nintendo would be on board, not like the games sold bad or the demand hasn't been there for more Golden Sun. It wouldn't be the first time Nintendo's sat on an IP for a few years for it to finally get a new game installment, so even that wouldn't come off unusual. Either way, no harm in making Nintendo aware with Golden Sunday events anyways, if the Takahashi brothers still mean their words, Nintendo can pass on how much fans want Golden Sun to return.
 

SonicLink125

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Enough to notice. But enough to acknowledge? That will come as we do more Golden Sundays and make it a known thing
Yup! The more we keep this momentum, the bigger the demand will get to the point that they cannot ignore us.

Is it really Nintendo holding the Golden Sun IP back or is it more on the Takahashi brothers? I feel it's the latter. They never said anything about Nintendo putting pressure on them after Dark Dawn or anything (the sequel was even allowed despite the many years between the first two games). It's unlike what happened with FE where the head developer was told by Nintendo that if Awakening bombed, it was over. The brothers just state how taxing it is to produce an RPG like Golden Sun but if the fans asked they'd get to work on another one despite that... and then nothing. It was their decision, not Nintendo making a statement for them.

One of the Camelot bosses recently even spoke of wanting to do another Shining Force and that requires working with Sega (and that games been out of the spotlight longer than Golden Sun's last game). We're completely in the dark when it comes to Golden Sun and if anyone on Camelot has similar wishes to bring it back.

It's much easier for Nintendo to invest in a new IP altogether than to force the brothers to make Golden Sun if they're not feeling it or throw the IP to some other studio just to have another game for the sake of it and have fans hate it cause it turned into something that's unrecognizable. I feel like if the Takahashi brothers approached Nintendo and stated they were on board to want to continue Golden Sun, Nintendo would be on board, not like the games sold bad or the demand hasn't been there for more Golden Sun. It wouldn't be the first time Nintendo's sat on an IP for a few years for it to finally get a new game installment, so even that wouldn't come off unusual. Either way, no harm in making Nintendo aware with Golden Sunday events anyways, if the Takahashi brothers still mean their words, Nintendo can pass on how much fans want Golden Sun to return.
It is entirely possible that the Takahashi Bros. don't want another Dark Dawn situation and don't think that their crew is up to the task. If that's really the case, I don't understand why they don't get help from other Nintendo companies to help.
 

XenoWarriorX

Smash Champion
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Aug 11, 2018
Messages
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The discussion over whether the focus on the "Isaac for Smash" movement instead of the "Revive Golden Sun" movement has been a detriment or not is interesting. I agree with the base concept that we've been too focused on Smash, and that a lot of that energy needs to be turned towards getting a new game/remake, especially after Sakurai's comments basically saying to stop asking him about Smash DLC. I think Golden Sunday was a great step in the right direction.

That being said, something that doesn't seem to be mentioned as much is that many supporters didn't "lose their way" from the initial goal of reviving Golden Sun- they first joined as "Isaac should be playable in Smash" to begin with.

I'm pretty confident that a high number of Isaac supporters here or on other forums have never even played Golden Sun. This happens with any potential Smash character. People might like a character's design, moveset potential, or the idea of a new series being represented; they just like the fanbase and want them to be happy. That's the way I am with someone like Takamaru, honestly- I think he'd be a cool, unique addition, and that a reboot could be cool if done right, but it's not like I've played a lick of The Mysterious Murasame Castle. While it's good to encourage these people to play the games the characters come from, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with this type of fan. It's natural. And whether or not you think they're as "real" of fans, they've still helped get Isaac's name out there, and we should be thankful for that.

So the theory I've heard expressed is that there are a lot of Golden Sun fans based on Isaac's constant great performance in polls, but that we've squandered our voices by hopelessly spending them on Smash instead of a new game. But I don't think we would have gotten that loud in the first place without Smash acting as a rally point that has introduced new people to the character and series. I've definitely heard people who first played the series after learning about Isaac through Smash support. So while I think the emphasis should shift some, I absolutely don't think we should just give up or turn on backs on supporting Isaac or any other GS character for Smash. Instead we should be asking ourselves what we can do to get these types of supporters to get into Golden Sun as a series and get them more invested in a new game, instead of just a Smash character alone.
I guess it helped. But I'm not sure by how much.
 

SonicLink125

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I guess it helped. But I'm not sure by how much.
Enough to get the idea of Isaac as a fighter, who he is, what he can bring to Smash, where he originates from, why he and Golden Sun are an important part of Nintendo, etc. to many people who don't know Golden Sun. And since this Ultimate Cycle, we've had newcomers who would have never heard or tried Golden Sun if we've never pushed it. And those newcomers will spread the word on Golden Sun to even more people.

Smash obviously is not GS content and our #1 priority should have been on a new GS game, but Smash does/did help introduce people into Golden Sun. And that is Ay Ok.
 

Nauzgo

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Is it really Nintendo holding the Golden Sun IP back or is it more on the Takahashi brothers?
It's definitely because of Nintendo. Nintendo has the say and if Nintendo thinks Mario Tennis and Mario Golf are more profitable then Camelot has to make those. It's always on Nintendo to decide whether an IP is worked on or not.

Besides; I want to express my joy about the Golden Sunday being a success! What I also have to say though - and people should keep that in mind - is that Camelot's next project is obviously already decided. Don't be upset or disappointed if Mario Golf is next, because that has nothing to do with our campaign. When there's no Golden Sun after said potential Mario Golf, then we lost. We'll simply have to wait and see.

But who knows, maybe the Ballot votes from Smash 4 had an effect on Nintendo's view on Golden Sun and Camelot works on Golden Sun instead of Mario Golf right now. Just don't get your hopes up too high for the near future :)
 

Ninjaed

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Messages
468
Enough to get the idea of Isaac as a fighter, who he is, what he can bring to Smash, where he originates from, why he and Golden Sun are an important part of Nintendo, etc. to many people who don't know Golden Sun. And since this Ultimate Cycle, we've had newcomers who would have never heard or tried Golden Sun if we've never pushed it. And those newcomers will spread the word on Golden Sun to even more people.

Smash obviously is not GS content and our #1 priority should have been on a new GS game, but Smash does/did help introduce people into Golden Sun. And that is Ay Ok.
Exactly. Had several people on gamefaqs saying they had picked up the game to find out more about the series in Smash (sometimes dating back to Brawl) and others having been made aware thanks to Golden Sunday and taking an interest over what caused such a fuss. Few didn't get into the game, the others liked or loved it.

Nintendo is bound to notice the bump in sales we triggered (I've bought them on Wii U as well, replaying them as I speak). They can't not have noticed, they have people dedicated to analysing what feedback they get. And the feedback they get on Golden Sun now is "I've been a fan for several years, me want more", "wow that's a good game", "eh not my style" and "why was this discontinued by the way"? So I'm quite hopeful - confident even - that Nintendo will act sometime soon.
 

Frosty Pops

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Messages
332
Another thing to consider; the pool of fan wants is big, really. Really. Big. Even when you ignore current demands like Banjo-Kazooie, Geno, Bandana Waddle Dee Shantae, Shovel Knight, Rayman, Waluigi, Ashley and what have you, there's still a bunch of other characters that don't get as much demand (like Captain Syrup, any Warioware character that isn't Ashley, Kirby characters outside of the core quatuor, King Hippo, lesser-known or dormant third parties) to get past. Not to mention recent characters that get created (Elma, Rex & Pyra, ARMS fighters), with more certainly coming after them.

Also, reluctance to use stuff from Camelot (which may be why Waluigi gets passed over every time as well), either due to contractual or cultural reasons.

Luckily Nintendo has been listening more this generation, so a proverbial megaphone is necessary. Especially when Octopath Traveller proves how well old-school JRPGs fare.
I have not tried Octopath Traveller but it looks like a game I would love. And yes the fan demands are crazy. I have seen people supporting minion characters (although never heard anybody mention Pirhana Plant?) Like Hammer Bros, Kremlings, Space Pirates. To some really out there side characters, the painter girl from Kirby series (can't remember her name off the top of my head) Funky Kong, alot of Mario side characters even though alot only appeared in individual games. But not many have a large fan base like others who have been given ATs.
 

Pinguino21v

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Maybe a bit out of context, I just saw that Nippon Ichi Software (Disgaea serie) announced a new game that launch on February 28, 2019 in Japan.

If I tell you that, it's because there's a character, "a mecha equipped with a time travel function that Sherry finds in her father’s room. Since his parts are damaged, his memories are unclear" is named Isaac.

Artists! Time to crossover! Or wait the game release maybe.
 

SPEN18

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MI, USA
Speaking of Golden Sun songs, we can see one playing in the Living Room stage:
Welp. I guess I'm gonna be playing on the Living Room stage a lot this game. Didn't think it would come to that.

In fact, if you look at their history, the number of titles they develop has heavily dwindled.
Number of titles isn't necessarily the best way to gauge their productivity over time since developing a game for, say, the Wii U is much more taxing than developing for the GBA. Also, part of the reason DD was their only game on the DS is the two games they made for the Wii right before it (one of which I think was built out of a cancelled golf game for the PC). Since Mario Power Tennis was released the year right before DD they were likely developed concurrently, and also DD would have been a decently large project for them. Their productivity has gone down a bit just looking at their timeline of releases but they're still putting out a game every one or two years (which isn't too bad this day and age, given their size). That said, the quality of those games may be a bit of a different story.
 

Oracle_Summon

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Welp. I guess I'm gonna be playing on the Living Room stage a lot this game. Didn't think it would come to that.



Number of titles isn't necessarily the best way to gauge their productivity over time since developing a game for, say, the Wii U is much more taxing than developing for the GBA. Also, part of the reason DD was their only game on the DS is the two games they made for the Wii right before it (one of which I think was built out of a cancelled golf game for the PC). Since Mario Power Tennis was released the year right before DD they were likely developed concurrently, and also DD would have been a decently large project for them. Their productivity has gone down a bit just looking at their timeline of releases but they're still putting out a game every one or two years (which isn't too bad this day and age, given their size). That said, the quality of those games may be a bit of a different story.
The issue with Camelot right now is having to make a large scale game like Golden Sun using HD engines. Luckily, working on Power Tennis has helped them get familiar with HD graphics, but they need help from other Nintendo studios to make a large scale JRPG. Their small employee numbers will be overwhelmed with the size and scope of Golden Sun.
 

TempestSurge

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It's definitely because of Nintendo. Nintendo has the say and if Nintendo thinks Mario Tennis and Mario Golf are more profitable then Camelot has to make those. It's always on Nintendo to decide whether an IP is worked on or not.

Besides; I want to express my joy about the Golden Sunday being a success! What I also have to say though - and people should keep that in mind - is that Camelot's next project is obviously already decided. Don't be upset or disappointed if Mario Golf is next, because that has nothing to do with our campaign. When there's no Golden Sun after said potential Mario Golf, then we lost. We'll simply have to wait and see.

But who knows, maybe the Ballot votes from Smash 4 had an effect on Nintendo's view on Golden Sun and Camelot works on Golden Sun instead of Mario Golf right now. Just don't get your hopes up too high for the near future :)
The first two Golden Sun games were million sellers and despite Dark Dawn not being able to replicate that, it still wasn't detrimental to the point Nintendo had to call them out to pull the plug like FE. Also Camelot's been developing Golden Sun and Mario Tennis/Golf alongside each other (Nintendo even allowed Dark Dawn despite that coming years after the first two, they could have pulled the plug on that and stuck with the Mario.).

And you'd think if Nintendo would force a studio to stick to the most profitable it'd be Pokemon, yet even Gamefreak is greenlit to making an entirely new IP. It's just less conspiracy hoops to take the Takahashi's brothers words at face value, Golden Sun takes a huge amount of effort to come to fruition but they'll make another one if enough fans demand it, but there's even a disclaimer that it may not be likely cause once again the full amount of effort that goes into it.
 

tbuster766

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Aug 24, 2018
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I mean I would probably buy Mario Tennis too if it had a GS character. But I think we can both agree that isn't really reviving GS or Isaac, and would only be seen as one small step on the journey.
WHen I imagine Isaac in Mario tennis Aces, I imagine his special move being him summoning Judgement, obliterating the entire court and surrounding area, and the tennis ball landing on the barren other side of the net.

Isaac might be a bit too OP for Mario Tennis...
Well if Isaac did make a playable appearance in Mario Tennis I feel like it would be in the same vein as King K.Rool did with Mario Sluggards as a guest character of sorts. Sure it may not be much, but I'd take it regardless. More appearances for Isaac can't hurt.

The first two Golden Sun games were million sellers and despite Dark Dawn not being able to replicate that, it still wasn't detrimental to the point Nintendo had to call them out to pull the plug like FE. Also Camelot's been developing Golden Sun and Mario Tennis/Golf alongside each other (Nintendo even allowed Dark Dawn despite that coming years after the first two, they could have pulled the plug on that and stuck with the Mario.).

And you'd think if Nintendo would force a studio to stick to the most profitable it'd be Pokemon, yet even Gamefreak is greenlit to making an entirely new IP. It's just less conspiracy hoops to take the Takahashi's brothers words at face value, Golden Sun takes a huge amount of effort to come to fruition but they'll make another one if enough fans demand it, but there's even a disclaimer that it may not be likely cause once again the full amount of effort that goes into it.
If they end up making a new game, I really hope they end up collaborating with staff from other studios. I just don't think it's right if they work with a small group of people. They need all the help they can get to make it a great game of sorts.
 
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KirbyWorshipper2465

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If they end up making a new game, I really hope they end up collaborating with staff from other studios. I just don't think it's right if they work with a small group of people. They need all the help they can get to make it a great game of sorts.
Yeah, for the sake of comparison, Platinum Games has been rumoured to start up their own self-published game, and even then it wouldn't have AAA budget like their breadmaker Bayonetta has. The more manpower and resources you have, the better results you get.
 
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SonicLink125

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Yeah, for the sake of comparison, Platinum Games has been rumoured to start up their own self-published game, and even then it wouldn't have AAA budget like their breadmaker Bayonetta has. The more manpower and resources you have, the better results you get.
That reminds me, what other companies are rumored to be working on projects? It would be interesting if one or two of them are helping Camelot work on a new GS game. I don't count on it, but who knows, really?
 

Ninjaed

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I think it'd be best to get a Golden Sun remake first. It would feature both GS1 and GS2 with no cut in between the 2 after the Venus Lighthouse boss fight. Then, like any good remake, we'd get a decent amount of bonus content (for instance, the direct aftermath of the return of Alchemy) and the game would be brought up to today's standards. It would also be the perfect occasion to retcon lore newly introduced in Dark Dawn. Heck they could even change a few parts of the story to better suit their needs.

Still I doubt Nintendo has started any kind of work on that front yet. They may be discussing it now though. I do think we've managed to make enough of an impression for Nintendo to start seriously considering it.
 

Oracle_Summon

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I think it'd be best to get a Golden Sun remake first. It would feature both GS1 and GS2 with no cut in between the 2 after the Venus Lighthouse boss fight. Then, like any good remake, we'd get a decent amount of bonus content (for instance, the direct aftermath of the return of Alchemy) and the game would be brought up to today's standards. It would also be the perfect occasion to retcon lore newly introduced in Dark Dawn. Heck they could even change a few parts of the story to better suit their needs.

Still I doubt Nintendo has started any kind of work on that front yet. They may be discussing it now though. I do think we've managed to make enough of an impression for Nintendo to start seriously considering it.
A remake is best since it already has a proven concept that works and can be worked upon. The only issue is putting the team together necessary to create it. Nintendo will need some developers from Monolith Soft and other free developers. A part of Monolith Soft is making a new IP.

Hmmm....couldn't the Miitopia team help with programming Golden Sun? They have made an RPG and could keep the quirkiness out of the game.
The main issue is getting everyone on the same page and getting the team familiar with Golden Sun and working with Camelot. Putting new teams together takes time and a sense of unity in ideas and structure must be met when developing a project.

All in all we have:
  • Camelot itself - worked on Dark Dawn and knows how to make RPGs and overworld puzzles.
  • Takahashi Brothers - brains behind Golden Sun and keeping them is ideal.
  • Miitopia team - more RPG programmers on deck to help with work load.
  • Grezzo - Legend of Zelda 3D engine developers who could make an engine fit for Golden Sun HD. Includes character design and graphics.
  • Free Monolith Soft employees - the professionals at overworld design and world building.
That could work on a new Golden Sun.
 
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KoopaSaki

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Whatever happens next, we best be planning for the next event now that Golden Sunday has run its course. Of course there is the hope that they have already heard and might just bring back the franchise, but it’s best we keep up the pace just like the Ridley and king K. Rool guys. Just gotta make sure We don’t spam sakurai after that tweet last week.
 
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Dee Dude

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Let’s look at this way.

Now that Ridley and K.Rool are in and out of the way, Isaac will now easily become the most requested Nintendo character for Smash of all time.
Unless Waluigi (Who I also support) will become his competition

On a side note, is Golden Sun is still on the Wii U Eshop?
It’d be great for me to find a chance to finally play it and grow my support for Isaac without having to do an emulation or buy a GBA online.
 
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JaidynReiman

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So this is pretty great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvRY65AnT8Q&t=1436


Get a load of the boss battle music the romhack decided to used here.



Let’s look at this way.

Now that Ridley and K.Rool are in and out of the way, Isaac will now easily become the most requested Nintendo character for Smash of all time.
Unless Waluigi (Who I also support) will become his competition

On a side note, is Golden Sun is still on the Wii U Eshop?
It’d be great for me to find a chance to play it again and grow my support for Isaac without having to do an emulation or buy a GBA online.
Yes. You can still purchase GS and Lost Age on Wii U.
 
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LasermasterA

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Let’s look at this way.

Now that Ridley and K.Rool are in and out of the way, Isaac will now easily become the most requested Nintendo character for Smash of all time.
Unless Waluigi (Who I also support) will become his competition

On a side note, is Golden Sun is still on the Wii U Eshop?
It’d be great for me to find a chance to play it again and grow my support for Isaac without having to do an emulation or buy a GBA online.

Yes, we're now the biggest 1st party character who's also not a meme (Waluigi).

And yes, Golden Sun is still on the Wii U eshop. I don't see any reason for it to be removed.
 
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Ninjaed

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Let’s look at this way.

Now that Ridley and K.Rool are in and out of the way, Isaac will now easily become the most requested Nintendo character for Smash of all time.
Unless Waluigi (Who I also support) will become his competition

On a side note, is Golden Sun is still on the Wii U Eshop?
It’d be great for me to find a chance to finally play it and grow my support for Isaac without having to do an emulation or buy a GBA online.
Like the others said, it is. Several (many?) fans have bought them during Golden Sunday to show their direct support, thus showing Nintendo we're actually serious about this and more than willing to buy to make our dreams a reality. :ultridley:
 

Nauzgo

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Also Camelot's been developing Golden Sun and Mario Tennis/Golf alongside each other
Yes they did. But that was 15 years ago. I don't think they have time and staff to do this nowadays. Just look at the Wii/DS era. Golden Sun 3 but no Mario Golf and only a NPC port of Mario Power Tennis. I'd assume - and I'm sure I'm right about that - that Golden Sun takes more effort and money in development while they can reuse older models for both Mario Golf and Tennis which makes them prolly more profitable. It may be right that we got Dark Dawn over a new Mario Golf back then, but that was obviously because Golf didn't do well neither. Still they made another one after DD didn't do well aswell. That's why I'm sure Nintendo will make them do another Mario Golf before anything^^


And you'd think if Nintendo would force a studio to stick to the most profitable it'd be Pokemon, yet even Gamefreak is greenlit to making an entirely new IP.
Correct me if I'm wrong but GF isn't entirely owned by Nintendo iirc. But yeah, you're right. We can only speculate about that inter-company stuff. Still, I take the words of the brothers as Nintendo's point of view. Obviously Nintendo wouldn't risk such a expensive development if they weren't sure that enough fans would honor that. Mario Golf is just a safer money bet.
 
D

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The Brawl remix definitely wouldn't. But its still odd that Sakuraba hasn't had a track posted to the website.



Well, this was already answered, but it was just the existing Brawl remix.




Ah, it finally showed up. It was weird that it hadn't shown up yet. Is this just Felix Battle Theme / Final Boss?
It is. At the very least, we should get at least one or two more songs on account of Isaac's return. Most likely, all "Other" tracks should be available to use in all stages that aren't confined to a specific universe, meaning this could be used in Wrecking Crew or Pilotwings. So, at least it's not stuck on Norfair anymore.

*sigh* When are we going to get data leaks soon?
 

FlawedAI

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Well I posted this on the Newcomer Discussion thread, so I'll put it here too. Feel free to believe in it or not, but just know it's all desperate speculation :p
So this mostly hinges on Isaac's perceived popularity in the Ballot, but here goes:

THE GREAT ISAAC IN ULTIMATE THEORY:

Let's establish one thing: Ultimate looks rushed. Some models look bad (Isaac), some strange choices were made (Chrom's still in Robin's Final Smash, what?), and in general the turnaround from Smash 4 was crazy. Sakurai had like two years to finish this game, as opposed to Brawl or Smash 4, which each had a longer development time. With the focus on bringing back vets and fan favorites, Sakurai realized Isaac was popular enough to warrant inclusion, but he couldn't be finished in time, as his Psynergy attacks would take up too much development time. So, Sakurai decides he'll bring back Isaac's Assist Trophy for the time being, since he already got the rights from Camelot (not rights, per say, but permission, I guess).

Let's back up a few months to when Sakurai got these rights. Camelot has previously stated they'd make a new Golden Sun game if fans were interested, but they didn't actually expect this amount of demand. When Sakurai goes to Camelot, they're surprised at just how popular Isaac is, and realize people actually do want more Golden Sun. This is probably in Q3 (Late Summer-Fall) 2016, giving Camelot plenty of time to start working on a new game. While they have to finish Mario Tennis Aces, they start contacting other companies, like Monolith, to help them remake the first 2 Golden Sun games to get the team used to working on Golden Sun. Once Mario Tennis wraps up the pre-launch development, most of its team is sent to help with Golden Sun, but the game still needs more time, and it finally projected to release sometime (probably late) in 2019, prime opportunity for Smash DLC. Obviously, this game would line up perfectly for Isaac to be added in Smash, since it offers an excellent promotion for a revived IP, and Sakurai also gets to satisfy fans.

Fast foward to August of 2018, when most of the game is probably done (as in the characters are just being balanced, extra modes being worked on, etc.), and Sakurai tweets the infamous "Rathalos Tweet". This tweet shows three swordsmen lined up to face Rathalos in the Colosseum, and the resemblance to Golden Sun is uncanny. Link as the silent protagonist, Marth as "Mars", like a Mars Adept, and Shulk as the future-seeing Ivan. The tweet couldn't have been just a coincidence, as it's impossible to line up the characters like that in a normal match. Not to mention, the battle in the Colosseum is reminiscent of the Doom Dragon battle at the end of Golden Sun, against a giant dragon in an arena. Now, at first, the Isaac community (myself included) believed this to be a sure sign of Isaac being in Smash. However, this was not the case. Some say the tweet is a Monster Hunter reference, but I think differently. (This part doesn't come from me, but I think JaidynReiman brought it up first) Back during the Smash 4 hype cycle, Sakurai tweeted a picture of the Monado, and lo and behold, exactly one year later, to the date, Shulk is revealed. I believe the Rathalos tweet wasn't something of "Hey, check this out! This thing is in the game!", but rather, "Hey! Check out what we're currently working on!", as DLC would have been started to have been discussed right about now.

This brings us to the present day. Isaac's revealed as an Assist Trophy, and we're all sad. However, do not fear! Sakurai confirms that Nintendo decided DLC, not him. This is good news for Isaac's base, as Nintendo might be more willing to not only give fans what they want, being directly on the receiving end of requests, but also to promote any upcoming games. As it so happens, one of these upcoming games is a new Golden Sun, and Nintendo can see the dollars rolling already. They realize they can basically double dip on Isaac's popularity: Not only will nostalgic fans buy him and the new Golden Sun, but his inclusion in Smash as a brand new geomancer will make casuals interested in Isaac as a character. Now Nintendo can say "Hey, you like this Isaac guy? Check this out: it's the game he starred in! And it just came out! Crazy, right?" This will help to ensure the Golden Sun remake sells as well.

I have a bit more evidence to add that doesn't really fit anywhere else: Isaac's model doesn't look great (compare it to other Assist Trophies - it looks pretty bad, especially with the sleeves and face), giving evidence to my theory that he was added in last-minute to please fans, and not to mention when Isaac was shown off in the Direct, they used the Felix Battle Theme that's been around since Brawl. Brawl! He was the only Assist not introduced with new music, which is quite strange, huh? Maybe they're saving it for a Fighter Pack with Isaac?

That's my crackpot theory on Isaac's chances in Smash. I've managed to completely convince myself, but I give it around a 5% chance of actually happening. Mostly, I'm banking on Camelot realizing the demand for a new Golden Sun and Nintendo wanting to promote characters with Ultimate's DLC. What do you guys think? (Also, KMDP, feel free to remind me of anything I missed, since most of this comes from the Isaac thread.)
 

TheSpaceKing12

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Well I posted this on the Newcomer Discussion thread, so I'll put it here too. Feel free to believe in it or not, but just know it's all desperate speculation :p
The fact that this has an non zero chance is honestly refreshing.
 

FlawedAI

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The fact that this has an non zero chance is honestly refreshing.
Yeah, it's nice to know that there's a pretty solid chance of getting the game, the Isaac in Smash part is just secondary, tbh. I think the game has a much higher chance of happening, as high as 25% even.
 

Silo777

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Well I posted this on the Newcomer Discussion thread, so I'll put it here too. Feel free to believe in it or not, but just know it's all desperate speculation :p
This is a great write up, I’ve been thinking on these specific points a lot too. It feels like, with these things in mind, there’s just enough wiggle room for a miracle to happen and for it all to make sense. I don’t think Isaac should be counted out quite yet. Don’t lose sleep over it obviously, but I can see a possibility where it happens. Later I think I’m going to gather all the points Isaac has for him, things of suspicion, and the like into one text post and see how well they mesh.
 

SonicLink125

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Well I posted this on the Newcomer Discussion thread, so I'll put it here too. Feel free to believe in it or not, but just know it's all desperate speculation :p
Hahaha, I love it! Man, this theory is so crazy, I actually want to believe it! No one would see it coming if it was true! Even if it doesn't happen, I wouldn't be upset at all because it's that crazy. But then again, we've seen crazier...I think?
 

tbuster766

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Theories aside, just marveling at how the thread has been moving very slowly today. Glad that it is moving again a bit :p
 

KMDP

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Speaking of the Newcomer Discussion thread, I myself have made a few posts there.

Like this one.

Let me know if you think my points in that post were sound.
 
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SPEN18

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Speaking of the Newcomer Discussion thread, I myself have made a few posts there.

Like this one.

Let me know if you think my points in that post were sound.
Yeah, you pretty much summed up why it's completely backwards to say that Isaac isn't a popular request. His popularity, at this point, is not a question AT ALL. The only characters who can hold a candle to his popularity IMO are Banjo and Geno. The three new legends of Smash speculation. A few others like Waluigi or Skull Kid come pretty close to that but, in my personal perception of things, are not quite on the same level. That dude who thought Dee was more popular...no. At least not from what I've perceived these last few months.
 
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