Goddess buffs in patch 1.1.4!!!

[Hydde]

it notonley doesnt kill..but at low percent the enemy can even hityou back even if u hit them

 

[PHP]

Her Counter needs a buff URGENTLY. It's freaking useless and using it is not really worth it. I can never kill anyone with it.

If you counter warlock punch it'll KO =]

And all I use it for is blocking projectiles

 

[ionustron]

Hi,

I don't usually like posting here or lurking because of the internalized gloom and despair and calls for customs, but I would add that I feel a possible nice little stealth buff given to her is in the form of Umbra Clock Tower. Playing around with that stage, seems legit for a tourney. I was concerned that the Space Harrier dragons would ram into players or shoot ribbons of fireballs but they seem to be just noisy decoration? The cave and walkoff portions are brief and far between the regular platforms. I think there's a bunch of possible ledge warp cancel shenanigans here!

Plus, After Burner music. I mean, her upsmash is pretty much the clean-burning thrust of a fighter jet. What's not to like?

Going to practice a bit more over there and I hope it becomes legit because ANYTHING is better than more Animal Crossing bgm.

(also, I use her counter to slide up on stage from ledges sometimes to catch careless smash attacks.)

 

[Hypertonic_J]

I still suck with her. Living on that 45% win-rate yo.

 

[Fuj¡netta 2]

Hi,

I don't usually like posting here or lurking because of the internalized gloom and despair and calls for customs, but I would add that I feel a possible nice little stealth buff given to her is in the form of Umbra Clock Tower. Playing around with that stage, seems legit for a tourney. I was concerned that the Space Harrier dragons would ram into players or shoot ribbons of fireballs but they seem to be just noisy decoration? The cave and walkoff portions are brief and far between the regular platforms. I think there's a bunch of possible ledge warp cancel shenanigans here!

Plus, After Burner music. I mean, her upsmash is pretty much the clean-burning thrust of a fighter jet. What's not to like?

Going to practice a bit more over there and I hope it becomes legit because ANYTHING is better than more Animal Crossing bgm.

(also, I use her counter to slide up on stage from ledges sometimes to catch careless smash attacks.)

Yaaas Ionoostron Queen of positivity!!!!

 

[wpwood]

Use counter on linear recoveries or recoveries that don't always snap to the ledge and hit through the stage like Mac, Ike, Cloud, Shulk, Ryu, Peach, and maybe a few others. The counter hit box will dip below the ledge and can gimp them that way.

 

[realmwars]

Considering I've mained her since the 3DS launch I kind of got a lot to say in this matter.

Now I'm still checking daily to see if any changes have been made and so far there's nothing, which really disappoints me.

First off I'll at least defend what I DO like about her. In terms of her default move set (since I don't use her custom moves) I actually like because it helps her adapt to multiple play styles. If anything I feel she can be used as a good counter pick character, of course this all depends if you know the MU between her and every character in the game, but she's got great defensive tools that can be used to figure out how your opponent plays. Her smash attacks are also great ways to punish opponents or if you can get solid reads, and even then she has more ways to KO. U-air, F-air off the stage, d-air off the stage, N-air has some KO potential, B-air, and even her up-tilt can KO and that move is really good as an anti-air if someone tries to come at you from above.

However I feel a number of her problem DOES involve the lag in some of her moves, and I really feel some heavy buffs need to be made to make her into something better (Even if I already do pretty well with her, she still needs an extra push.)

Now, anyone is free to express their thoughts on this next bit but these are what I feel Palutena needs to become a better fighter and why.

1. Frame 1 jab: Palutena's neutral jab is one of her safest moves. It stops a lot of opponents approach options and catches them. So if Palutena is supposed to be a more defensive character then having a frame one jab to keep a space between her and her opponent just makes the most sense.

2. Frame 1 counter: Palutena already has a very awkward counter (So much I actually forget to use it despite how much range it has.) Mainly because it's easy for her to get knocked out of her counter even if you do the input. Again if Palutena is meant to be played defensivly than her counter activating on frame 1 should help. Another I feel Palutena saying "counter" when it actually activates compared to her saying "counter" as you input the move just seems really impractical. Counters are supposed to be a surprise after all.

3. Super armor on her F-Smash and D-Smash: These are very powerful attacks of Palutena's that are good for reads and punishes. So why not make them more useful punish moves by making it so she doesn't flinch upon using them? Hell if Little Mac can have it on his smash attacks for that reason, why not the GODDESS?

4. Fix U-Smash's hit box: There are SO many times where despite the up-smash coming out my opponent doesn't get hit by it. Even if they're right in the middle of the move they take no damage and worst yet, I somehow still get hit by their attack instead. Mostly from Zero Suit's down-B. She's manages to jump right through my up-smash as it goes off and still hit me. I even see the pillar of light shoot up and yet she takes nothing from it.

5. Move out of recovery: There's a ton of characters who can't move out of recovery due to recovery stun. There's also a few characters blessed with the ability to attack even after they recover. just a few to list off. To be honest I feel all characters who teleport as their recovery shouldn't be affected by recovery stun. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would they be helpless after teleporting? It's even worse in Pally's case since unlike Palutena's teleport doesn't do damage. So I feel that puts her at more of a disadvantage. Now, her warp is already a great recovery move. It moves far, and it's even good for on stage mix-ups (warp ledge canceling can help if there's platforms involved) but the recovery state she's left in makes her too vulnerable to opponents that can juggle. If she could still fight back after warping she'd at least have a chance to say "Hey get off me."

Those are what I feel would be ideal changes to make her character even better. Feel free to give your thoughts on this.

 

[PHP]

Considering I've mained her since the 3DS launch I kind of got a lot to say in this matter.

Now I'm still checking daily to see if any changes have been made and so far there's nothing, which really disappoints me.

First off I'll at least defend what I DO like about her. In terms of her default move set (since I don't use her custom moves) I actually like because it helps her adapt to multiple play styles. If anything I feel she can be used as a good counter pick character, of course this all depends if you know the MU between her and every character in the game, but she's got great defensive tools that can be used to figure out how your opponent plays. Her smash attacks are also great ways to punish opponents or if you can get solid reads, and even then she has more ways to KO. U-air, F-air off the stage, d-air off the stage, N-air has some KO potential, B-air, and even her up-tilt can KO and that move is really good as an anti-air if someone tries to come at you from above.

However I feel a number of her problem DOES involve the lag in some of her moves, and I really feel some heavy buffs need to be made to make her into something better (Even if I already do pretty well with her, she still needs an extra push.)

Now, anyone is free to express their thoughts on this next bit but these are what I feel Palutena needs to become a better fighter and why.

1. Frame 1 jab: Palutena's neutral jab is one of her safest moves. It stops a lot of opponents approach options and catches them. So if Palutena is supposed to be a more defensive character then having a frame one jab to keep a space between her and her opponent just makes the most sense.

2. Frame 1 counter: Palutena already has a very awkward counter (So much I actually forget to use it despite how much range it has.) Mainly because it's easy for her to get knocked out of her counter even if you do the input. Again if Palutena is meant to be played defensivly than her counter activating on frame 1 should help. Another I feel Palutena saying "counter" when it actually activates compared to her saying "counter" as you input the move just seems really impractical. Counters are supposed to be a surprise after all.

3. Super armor on her F-Smash and D-Smash: These are very powerful attacks of Palutena's that are good for reads and punishes. So why not make them more useful punish moves by making it so she doesn't flinch upon using them? Hell if Little Mac can have it on his smash attacks for that reason, why not the GODDESS?

4. Fix U-Smash's hit box: There are SO many times where despite the up-smash coming out my opponent doesn't get hit by it. Even if they're right in the middle of the move they take no damage and worst yet, I somehow still get hit by their attack instead. Mostly from Zero Suit's down-B. She's manages to jump right through my up-smash as it goes off and still hit me. I even see the pillar of light shoot up and yet she takes nothing from it.

5. Move out of recovery: There's a ton of characters who can't move out of recovery due to recovery stun. There's also a few characters blessed with the ability to attack even after they recover. just a few to list off. To be honest I feel all characters who teleport as their recovery shouldn't be affected by recovery stun. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would they be helpless after teleporting? It's even worse in Pally's case since unlike Palutena's teleport doesn't do damage. So I feel that puts her at more of a disadvantage. Now, her warp is already a great recovery move. It moves far, and it's even good for on stage mix-ups (warp ledge canceling can help if there's platforms involved) but the recovery state she's left in makes her too vulnerable to opponents that can juggle. If she could still fight back after warping she'd at least have a chance to say "Hey get off me."

Those are what I feel would be ideal changes to make her character even better. Feel free to give your thoughts on this.

I like the changes you suggested, (frame 3 jab is more reasonable tbh) but other than that they sound amazing, however you forgot to address her overall end lag and her tilts (bar down tilt). You also didn't mention her specials which is a bit odd tbh since you were talking about lag.

 

[kamus_aran]

For me, i just want her default special set to be buffed in this way:

1. Autoreticle: we can freely move the reticle
2. Reflect Barrier: make it function like an actual wall so that no one can go though it and grab you or hit you with long range attacks without even going through it. I hate it when others' reflectors have different uses while ours can, mostly, only be used to reflect, the windbox is weak, it barely pushes anyone (except Mac recovery, some n-airs), plus it has too much endlag
3. Warp: if the move has no hitbox like Zelda's & Sheik's, make it at least has invincibility on the startup and when she reappears, geezz. If Sheik is free to get back to the stage, plus you can get punished if you chase her, why can't Palutena be like that
4. Counter: less startup and endlag, that's it

 

[realmwars]

I like the changes you suggested, (frame 3 jab is more reasonable tbh) but other than that they sound amazing, however you forgot to address her overall end lag and her tilts (bar down tilt). You also didn't mention her specials which is a bit odd tbh since you were talking about lag.

Well reason I didn't mention it is because I actually never had issues with lag on her tilts and speciaos (aside fr0m auto-reticle but I never use it up close so it doesn't hinder me much.) The end lag more so hinders me on her Smash attacks when I think I got a good read or punish.

 

[realmwars]

For me, i just want her default special set to be buffed in this way:

1. Autoreticle: we can freely move the reticle
2. Reflect Barrier: make it function like an actual wall so that no one can go though it and grab you or hit you with long range attacks without even going through it. I hate it when others' reflectors have different uses while ours can, mostly, only be used to reflect, the windbox is weak, it barely pushes anyone (except Mac recovery, some n-airs), plus it has too much endlag
3. Warp: if the move has no hitbox like Zelda's & Sheik's, make it at least has invincibility on the startup and when she reappears, geezz. If Sheik is free to get back to the stage, plus you can get punished if you chase her, why can't Palutena be like that
4. Counter: less startup and endlag, that's it

I can get behind all of these except for the Autoreticle. Actually, something I feel would be great is having a longer reach, so Palutena can still play keep away. Auto-reticle is more so appropriate as a pressure tool and not so much an offensive projectile like Fox.

Also I kind of like my idea for the warp too where you can still attack even after recovering, just so you're not completely helpless when coming back down.

 

[CreatureComforts]

I have a few things to say here.

1. Frame 1 jab: Palutena's neutral jab is one of her safest moves. It stops a lot of opponents approach options and catches them. So if Palutena is supposed to be a more defensive character then having a frame one jab to keep a space between her and her opponent just makes the most sense.

2. Frame 1 counter: Palutena already has a very awkward counter (So much I actually forget to use it despite how much range it has.) Mainly because it's easy for her to get knocked out of her counter even if you do the input. Again if Palutena is meant to be played defensivly than her counter activating on frame 1 should help. Another I feel Palutena saying "counter" when it actually activates compared to her saying "counter" as you input the move just seems really impractical. Counters are supposed to be a surprise after all.

I do agree that lag on Palutena's moves is a problem, but jab and counter aren't really the biggest problems. In my experience, autoreticle and tilts are the moves that I feel need some lag reduction to become more viable. Just a bit, nothing massive. However, faster jab and counter wouldn't hurt, and I would really like to see her counter become useful for things other than unintended silliness.

3. Super armor on her F-Smash and D-Smash: These are very powerful attacks of Palutena's that are good for reads and punishes. So why not make them more useful punish moves by making it so she doesn't flinch upon using them? Hell if Little Mac can have it on his smash attacks for that reason, why not the GODDESS?

I don't necessarily think that these need super armor, since they are relatively fast smash attacks with large windboxes, and considering Palutena does have two very viable options that already have super armor, I feel that this wouldn't help much. Plus it would probably lead to more people just spamming with Palutena. I see too many Palutena players just spamming DA because of the armor on it, and not just on For Glory.

Honestly, any buffs to f-smash or d-smash would be pushing it. They're both relatively fast, with great knockback and huge windboxes (less so with D-smash, but it's still functional)

5. Move out of recovery: There's a ton of characters who can't move out of recovery due to recovery stun. There's also a few characters blessed with the ability to attack even after they recover. just a few to list off. To be honest I feel all characters who teleport as their recovery shouldn't be affected by recovery stun. It just doesn't make sense to me, why would they be helpless after teleporting? It's even worse in Pally's case since unlike Palutena's teleport doesn't do damage. So I feel that puts her at more of a disadvantage. Now, her warp is already a great recovery move. It moves far, and it's even good for on stage mix-ups (warp ledge canceling can help if there's platforms involved) but the recovery state she's left in makes her too vulnerable to opponents that can juggle. If she could still fight back after warping she'd at least have a chance to say "Hey get off me."

I don't really agree with this. You mentioned a few characters that can act out of their Up-Bs. Almost all of them have something to balance it out, and I feel if we got the ability to act out of Up-B, it would come with some sort of nerf to balance it.

Sonic, Mega Man, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch, and Bowser Jr. to an extent have Up-Bs that are borderline unusable onstage. When Sonic uses Up-B onstage, I've found some setups that consistently allow me to hard-punish, and often take a stock. Bowser Jr. and ROB can also get gimped hard by certain characters, or in Bowser Jr.'s case, just smart players in general. Two of the things I most like about Palutena's Up-B is that it's ungimpable due to the intangibility, and it's usability onstage.

In the case of Yoshi, calling his Up-B a recovery move is a huge stretch, as it barely gives him any vertical height.

Bayonetta is the exception of the bunch. Though her Up-B does not give her much height, she can use it twice and act out of it easily. However, I feel that this was only given to her because she was designed to be a combo/air centric character, so we can't hope to ever get anything like that. Not to mention, it can be a bit difficult to get back to the stage at times.

Realistically, though, I feel like giving Palutena the ability to act out of her Up-B would have to come with some sort of nerf, whether it be increased landing lag, ability to be gimped once the move begins, or less potent recovery, I feel that it would lessen the viability of the move. I'd rather see Palutena's Up-B changed to be more like Sheik's vanish: hitboxes at the beginning and end, but even then I'd feel like they'd increase the lag if you landed on stage to compensate, so I guess we can't hope for too much in this department.

Everything else you said sounded pretty good to me.

1. Autoreticle: we can freely move the reticle
2. Reflect Barrier: make it function like an actual wall so that no one can go though it and grab you or hit you with long range attacks without even going through it. I hate it when others' reflectors have different uses while ours can, mostly, only be used to reflect, the windbox is weak, it barely pushes anyone (except Mac recovery, some n-airs), plus it has too much endlag
3. Warp: if the move has no hitbox like Zelda's & Sheik's, make it at least has invincibility on the startup and when she reappears, geezz. If Sheik is free to get back to the stage, plus you can get punished if you chase her, why can't Palutena be like that
4. Counter: less startup and endlag, that's it

I like these suggestions, though I see some complications with the first two. Moving the reticle could be problematic, as you will inevitably move it accidentally at times, and I fear that the move will become more like Din's Fire when used in the air, and that would be honestly really terrible. I like the auto targetting, because unlike other projectiles, opponents will have great difficulty finding consistent set-ups to avoid it.

I'd also be concerned about buffing reflect barrier to actually push players back, because it would have to have increased ending lag. Otherwise, we'd just be able to continuously push players out with it. The increased endlag would reduce its effectiveness as a reflector, which is important because it's one of the tools we can use to force projectile spammers to approach. Reflect Barrier is one thing with Palutena I honestly feel is best left alone. The increased pushback would be nice, but it'd be unrealistic to believe that it would happen without significant drawbacks. Less endlag does sound nice, though, because it would make it work better as an actual reflector, though it's pretty spammable already. F-Tilt would work great for walling enemies out, if only it had less lag.

The suggestion for longer reach on autoreticle would be really great, but I don't feel like we'd get that, unfortunately (even though there wouldn't be much wrong with it). I still really want it, though!

 

[Hydde]

To sad sakurai is on vacations

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Palutena doesn't need superarmor on Smashes just less startup and endlag+Upsmash hitboxes coming out on the same frame that the light is coming out.

Hydde : There has to be a Patch in about 2-3months just because of Corrin and Bayonetta. Now that Sakuwhy is on a extented vacation he has time to think how he should buff Palutena hehe.

 

[Hydde]

U forgot to mention the ugly counter. Dat counter.

You see Corrins AOE of his counter? Thats what Palutena deserved. I do not minded if it wasnt as strong as other counters... but some kind of explotion coming out from her is what she deserved,,,,, not that insult of a counter.

 

[meleebrawler]

U forgot to mention the ugly counter. Dat counter.

You see Corrins AOE of his counter? Thats what Palutena deserved. I do not minded if it wasnt as strong as other counters... but some kind of explotion coming out from her is what she deserved,,,,, not that insult of a counter.

But striking back physically is how the Counter power works in Uprising.

 

[wpwood]

Let Sakurai go on vacation and stop asking for buffs. The man nearly died making this game and he's put a lot of work into it. He deserves the break and Bandi Namco can work on buffs without him anyway. Palutena can keep up with almost anyone except the top tiers and they're top tiers for a reason. Her moves have uses; you have to find the use for them. Counter is good to stop recoveries that don't snap the ledge, are linear and the hit box goes through the stage. Counters are rarely used anyway because they require you to read the opponents attack, but you can probably get a better punish without counter anyway. How often do you see any of the other counter characters use their counter?

Every character has flaws and Palutena is no different. Sure some things are sub-par, but you've dealt with it since the game has been released. But there's also some things that are better than average. Her up smash has insane range and can hit people high in the air unlike anyone else, her up air beats most moves because it's disjointed (and is super strong), bair is invincible and safe on counter when timed right, DA is invincible and safe on counter as well. What other character can attack through another character's smash attacks without clanking?

Palutena is decent as she is, but could use a few tweeks. That doesn't mean we should keep complain about what we think is wrong, because, guess what, that will get nothing changed. The devs watch tournaments (not the only source for patches though) and see how characters work. Go to tournaments and show off what you can do with the character, instead of crying for buffs here and maybe then the devs will take notice.

 

[Hydde]

Too much sugar coating in that last post.

What u said about counter applies to all counters

The only way to make her win is you outplaying every single opponent.

She is not good plain and simple. And guess what,,, she is not is not being used in tournament for a reason. Devs should patch her because thats their work. Palutena is in a possition that hse doesnt even need tournie feedback for anyone to notice how wonky she is

 

[meleebrawler]

Too much sugar coating in that last post.

What u said about counter applies to all counters

The only way to make her win is you outplaying every single opponent.

She is not good plain and simple. And guess what,,, she is not is not being used in tournament for a reason. Devs should patch her because thats their work. Palutena is in a possition that hse doesnt even need tournie feedback for anyone to notice how wonky she is

Palutena is in a position where people are too lazy to bother using the thing that makes her great: her customs.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Well we can whine about customs all we want but they are not used in Competitive nor in FG and that won't change.

 

[Hydde]

Palutena is in a position where people are too lazy to bother using the thing that makes her great: her customs.

Can we stop talking about customs and forget they exist?.

 

[Dinoman96]

The problem is is that Palutena was basically build around the idea of using custom specials. Saying "we should forget about customs!" in regards to Palutena is a bit unfortunate because uh, they were the entire point of her character. It's like if I mained one of the Mii Fighters and said "well, who needs customs ahuh". Honestly it's why I never expected Sakurai to change her drastically with patches, because they most likely made her default kit inferior to her alternative specials on purpose to encourage customization and making her better.

Quite frankly, the only thing we can really do is wait until Smash 5 where hopefully Sakurai (or whoever's directing it) scraps the custom move gimmick and just gives her a proper default moveset and balance her around it, or wait until a Project M-esque mod comes out for Smash 4.

Until then, I'll be stuck playing Tournament Mode, where Palutena isn't gimped.

 

[Maraphy]

The problem is is that Palutena was basically build around the idea of using custom specials. Saying "we should forget about customs!" in regards to Palutena is a bit unfortunate because uh, they were the entire point of her character. It's like if I mained one of the Mii Fighters and said "well, who needs customs ahuh". Honestly it's why I never expected Sakurai to change her drastically with patches, because they most likely made her default kit inferior to her alternative specials on purpose to encourage customization and making her better.

Quite frankly, the only thing we can really do is wait until Smash 5 where hopefully Sakurai (or whoever's directing it) scraps the custom move gimmick and just gives her a proper default moveset and balance her around it, or wait until a Project M-esque mod comes out for Smash 4.

Until then, I'll be stuck playing Tournament Mode, where Palutena isn't gimped.

^This, and also it seems to me like there might not be any more balance patches since development is over.

Palutena has only gotten very minor adjustments throughout her sm4sh career; it's probably a sign that the dev team considers her balanced. Balanced around customs, obviously, since she isn't great without them. I wouldn't say she's bad, but she unfortunately has low chances of winning against skilled players of higher tier characters without them. Instead of lamenting her lack of buffs we should really just petition the community to allow us to use her as intended.

 

[CreatureComforts]

The problem is, they will never make an exception just for Palutena. Either everyone gets customs, or no one gets customs. And I'm pretty sure most players don't want custom villagers running around in tournaments.

 

[Ridel]

I have no problem with Palutena being hyperdefensive. It's just that having so many laggy, extremely punishable moves kind of defeats the purpose of having all that defense.

Yeah this is my main issues with her and it would be unbearable if only I wasn't used to PM Dedede who suffers the same way. Bait and punish characters should never have their main punish tools be unreliable or or not worth the payoff and sadly Palutena is the epitome of that definition.

 

[TastyCarcass]

For a defensive character she has no safe tools for if a character is actually able to get in her space with a simple shield stop.
Her moves are just to slow to do anything about someone in her face. The neutral game before that is ok, but this is where I feel she sucks.
None of her moves look like they could have any simple fixes to sort this flaw. Other than making jab frame 5, but it'd probably be too good at that point.

 

[PHP]

For a defensive character she has no safe tools for if a character is actually able to get in her space with a simple shield stop.
Her moves are just to slow to do anything about someone in her face. The neutral game before that is ok, but this is where I feel she sucks.
None of her moves look like they could have any simple fixes to sort this flaw. Other than making jab frame 5, but it'd probably be too good at that point.

Palutena is better just walling the opponent rather than approching