Gimping

[Zankoku]

Another serious discussion time!

This time, we'll focus on the best way to make up for Sheik's limited outright kill potential (besides tipped usmash) - edgeguard gimps!

We talk a lot about it, but there's rarely much chat about how to do this effectively. So let's get into the specifics.

IDEAS TO DISCUSS:
Characters recovering low
Characters recovering high
Tether recoveries
Falco Phantasm
Meta Knight
Aerials to use
Characters not worth trying to gimp

 

[sheikamaru]

If theres an mk and they up b near the ledge leaving you to guess either stage or ledge, go for the ledge. all mks dont want to get punished after up b-ing so go for the ledge.you'll be surprised at the early stock lead.

 

[stealth3654]

We should discuss this a few characters at a time, because there's a different way to gimp each character

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I don't bother gimping MK, I focus on punishing him when he returns to the stage. It's just too much risk to try. Maybe I'll throw a few needles at him if he's low.

Against the spacies if they're side-Bing level with the stage I needle them, tether the ledge, and wait for the Up-B and then snap it. Sometimes I'll sour-spot BAir/NAir them to get them a little further, especially with Fox.

For Snake I switch to Zelda the moment I hit him far enough. imo Zelda is far better at gimping Snake than Sheik, especially threatening him with lightning kicks when he's forced to cypher, Dins can be pretty useful to hit him doing a C4 recovery or when he's recovering high.

I'll post more later.

 

[Zankoku]

Lightning kicks gimp? What?

I used to needle spacies, but lately they've been quick enough to just hit side+B immediately afterward and get back anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

One of my favorite edgeguarding stuffsies I like to to on people recovering low -> mid is run off, then time your double jump -> retreating nair back onto the stage (sorta like a Melee-esque edgeguard). The weak hit while rising allows for some good position too, and it's easier to capitalize on than needles sometimes, and it still covers a lot of their options. Fully charged needles (esp. aerial) are amazing sometimes too though. And of course, bair and fair are lovable as usual, fair giving that cool angle (sometimes you can trap the opponent in needles and angle yourself to do a double jump -> fair on the opponent, I don't know if that's guaranteed though), like what Izaw was doing in some of those matches. sweetspot bair if fresh has some really nasty initial knockback (think like aerial shuttle loop), and can net kills even at relatively low percents if the opponent is set up for it (usually from bthrow, since opponents like to DI high near the edge), I've seen it kill as early as 80% with this situation.

 

[Fuujin]

imo Zelda is far better at gimping Snake than Sheik,

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yes they do. They prevent Snake from returning to the stage, don't they?

 

[Juushichi]

The Toe usually kills Snake, not gimps Snake.

I do like rising Nair, dropping fair-> rising fair/nair (height dependent), and sweet or sourspot bair mostly. I have to think about using needles more efficiently for edgeguarding vs nonspacing. How often do you guys jab phantasms?

 

[Zankoku]

Yes they do. They prevent Snake from returning to the stage, don't they?

If you outright kill a character when he is supposed to die, that is no longer gimping.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

It puts you up a stock.

If you'd rather complain about semantics and try and gimp him as Sheik rather than transform and take the stock, by all means be my guest.

 

[Zankoku]

If you're wanting to wait until triple digits to land a kill instead of discussing methods of finding far earlier possibilities, be my guest.

As I said, there are some characters that cannot be gimped (or at least, not if the player isn't being ********). We're not discussing how to kill those ones.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ah, because of course Snake is impossible to gimp.

I mean, 7% heavy armour. Do any moves even do that much damage?

 

[Zankoku]

What? That doesn't even make sense. Armor reduces knockback, and is not directly based on damage.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Uh what? lol. I don't know where you get your facts from.

There are 3 main kinds of armour in the game. They either cancel all knockback because their prerequisite is met or don't.

Percentage based heavy armour, including Snake's 7% heavy armour on cypher, block all moves that do % equal to or higher than their armour threshold. Some moves that seem to do equal amounts but break it anyways is because completely fresh moves have a 5% bonus on damage, which goes into two decimal places.

Knockback based heavy armour, most notably on Yoshi's double jump, completely blocks all knockback from moves that don't reach a certain knockback threshold.

Super Armour blocks all knockback ever.

afaik windboxes ignore all armour.

Then again what do I know, I'm only working on my own mod of the game and need to know these things.

 

[Zankoku]

...I'm going to interpret that as "equal to or lower" so it makes sense.

In which case, that leaves strong hits of uair, bair, and nair; dair; and the smashes. None of those have particularly helpful knockback for gimping, unless Snake decides to DI down.

I can see an early percent KO with Zelda's lightning dair, but you'd need Snake at a decently high percent to safely transform in the first place.

Either way it all supports not relying on a gimp KO against Snake (because edgeguarding has an intersect, but not all cases of edgeguarding are gimps).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh lol typo, yeah you're right.

And idgaf about semantics. If it makes Snake dead then good outcome.

 

[Zankoku]

Okay, go discuss killing Snake elsewhere then.

 

[Judo777]

I'm going to go ahead right now and define gimping as KOing your opponent off the bottom blast zone when they were recovering.

I feel this includes spikes and what regularly define as gimping but removes things like them getting hit with a SL that sent them too far away to recover in the first place.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I think we should throw needles are people recovering low since they are likely recovering low for a reason. A good needle could cause them to panic and we could follow with a fair or quick ledgegrab.

 

[Roller]

I agree with Billy, that we should discuss separate characters at a time.

But some general ideas, using needles to b-boost off the ledge then cancel them and proceed to double jump fair.

When people are recovering low, face towards the stage and fair them for a stage spike.

Stage spike pretty much always combos into a footstool.


Nice to meet you all I'm an aspiring Sheik Main, After playing Tutu so much I decided that I may as well pick her up.

 

[Juushichi]

So... now that's: Judo, Ripple, Tutu, Kennispam, Roller and myself (Fino too?). So many MW Sheik players, goddamn.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Kenni never plays, and I'm quitting Sheik/Smash not sure which one yet.

 

[Judo777]

So... now that's: Judo, Ripple, Tutu, Kennispam, Roller and myself (Fino too?). So many MW Sheik players, goddamn.

I have said it once and will say it 100 times more. EVERYONE picks up sheik at some point. It's just the cool thing to do these days.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I play Sheik because she's the other half of one of my characters.

Also imo Sheik is reeeeeeeeeeally heavily underrated.

 

[KenniSpam!]

So... now that's: Judo, Ripple, Tutu, Kennispam, Roller and myself (Fino too?). So many MW Sheik players, goddamn.

i main wolf tho

 

[sheikamaru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KGpNIMZ3AQ

thought this should go here for this thread.

i like the use of the weak nair though, that's pretty cool

 

[Zankoku]

LOL that'd've been way cooler if I didn't die to some stupid glitch.

 

[sheikamaru]

lolol yea, nice work on that oli btw. so what was it? a random hitbox after oli up b/s or was it a purple pikman?

 

[Zankoku]

He had a purple pikmin and it ended up being hidden behind him and still have an active hitbox for some reason.

 

[holyv]

The falco phantasm is easy out-priorized by a smashattack.
Sheik has a very long hitbox on dsmash, the bubble will appear and he will be knocked back off the stage.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

If you're in a position to dsmash Falco phantasm then he should be going to the ledge.

 

[holyv]

If you're in a position to dsmash Falco phantasm then he should be going to the ledge.

yes, like jumping and phantasming onto the middle of the stage.
than you just dsmash, or usmash

I did not tested this.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

then its not really gimping?

I'm confused.

yes d/usmash hit through the second 2/3'rds of phantasm, but its not really gimping if you do it in the middle of the stage.

 

[holyv]

then its not really gimping?

I'm confused.

yes d/usmash hit through the second 2/3'rds of phantasm, but its not really gimping if you do it in the middle of the stage.

Wow i how can i did not notice that >.<

But it would be a best option if he was at high % wouldn't be?

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Upsmash is a great option for killing falco out of phantasm if hes going high/far enough, I've personally never killed a falco in the middle of the stage with a downsmash before.

 

[Good Ol' Tree]

Needles do well against spacies, but they tend to catch on after a little while. I like to jump off and just kind of fall near the end of my chain length and watch if I can get a hit, and, if not, chain back.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Gimp_kill

Why have Brawl players so horribly distorted the definition of this word?

Or is 40-80+ a gimp in Brawl or something?

 

[Life]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Gimp_kill

Why have Brawl players so horribly distorted the definition of this word?

Or is 40-80+ a gimp in Brawl or something?

>implying smashwiki is meant to be taken seriously

And in Brawl, it's not uncommon to have characters surviving to 150+. So depending on the matchup, yes.

 

[Zankoku]

Considering Sheik's strongest KO move doesn't actually KO most characters until the 100's, yes, getting a KO within 40-80% is easily a gimp.