Ghost pikmin theory thread

[Fino]

I have been discussing this with hilt, and we are both looking for a cause to the infamous ghost pikmin thread. After testing and playing around a little bit, I believe I have found a cause for the "ghost pikmin" glitch.

It all started on a replay I had, which got deleted on my wii (hilt has it too, he can post it), in which I was fooling around with a wolf cpu on skyworld. What happened was one of my pikmin got stuck on a re-appearing platform, and when my line reached the pikmin that was away from me, I blanked attacks. As soon as I moved forward, and the pikmin re-joined my line, the next attack came out with the same color that was stuck (purple).

I've also noticed that a majority (basically all) of ghost pikmin appearances in videos happen shortly after an encounter with the ledge. After seeing the skyworld vid (please post this hilt), and bait testing the ghost pikmin glitch, the theory that all evidence leads to it that... well... pikmin get stuck under the stage.

I had the ghost pikmin glitch happen to me in the middle of a set... and you know what cured it? I went back to the ledge where I think it started at, whistled or grabbed the ledge, and it miraculously was gone.

Causes of ghost pikmin glitch (from testing): quick movements from ledge and back - such as dropping down DJ fair and then landing back on the ledge, moving from below stage to on stage after grabbing the ledge (not tether) and then going to the stage, getting spiked and tether canceling immediately to a ledge movement. I think you get the point from here.

We're considering alternative theories to the cause and cure of the ghost pikmin glitch; however, this is as far as we have gotten and the conclusions we have made.

tl;dr Empirical evidence suggests the ghost pikmin glitch is caused by pikmin being stuck under the ledge, and going back to that same ledge cures it.

Discuss


~Fino

 

[Dyyne]

Yeah, that seems to be what all the occurrences in the past have suggested. My advice would be that to whomever it happens to next (if it's not online or super serious or something) pause, and just look under the stage, and maybe you can find it.
Fino, I agree with this hypothesis, but what has been my issue with it in the past is that: why does it happen on delfino more, and wouldn't the stage taking off kill the pikmin?

 

[Fino]

why does it happen on delfino more, and wouldn't the stage taking off kill the pikmin?

That has been the only thing, aside from hilt, from posting this a month or so ago when I came to this conclusion. lol.


~Fino

 

[Llumys]

Out of curiosity, has anyone tried waiting for Delfino to return to the part of the stage where the glitch occurred?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Okay, I do not believe the pikmin "get's stuck under the ledge". To be honest, fino, I to an extent dismissed your video to not having much relevance to Ghost Pikmin, but instead being something entirely different, as interesting as it was. My reasoning for this was simple.

The pikmin were, to an extent, close to the range of the pikmin that would be considered under olimar's control (as in, counted as being in his line), but weren't close enough to be used for an attack. Thus the attack being whiffed, and Olimar's pikmin order (since the pikmin wasnt actually used for the attack) does not move to the next pikmin. When you moved to a point to where the pikmin could return to olimar, it did. This does not happen during Ghost Pikmin. This is the main reason I saw it as being something entirely different, and based on stage (possibly only skyworld in that specific part). Also, the pikmin was obviously still visible. This... doesn't happen in ghost pikmin, not that that needed to be said haha. This glitch works in the same way but is not the same thing. It isn't caused, cured, or acts in the same way (I'm almost certain that a whistle would have fixed it, for instance).

I've seen an interesting replay that was sent to me. The olimar, fighting a mk on norfair, got ghost pikmin on the top right platform of the stage. One pikmin disappeared, a red, and before long the he began whiffing attacks. About fifteen seconds later, the mk downsmashed him, and olimar was sent flying diagonally right and up, passing the platform. He used fair to momentum cancel, but surprisingly while fairing when passing the platform that he lost the pikmin at, he pulled the pikmin back out of space, using it for the attack. I'm not entirely sure of the circumstances needed to do this, but I was extremely excited when it happened, haha.

However, the pikmin being "stuck under the stage" has no more proof than them merely "disappearing", and I have a hard time believing it to be the cause and/or situation of Ghost Pikmin.

Also, I've had it happen on other stages far more than Delfino. Norfair, battlefield, japes, and especially halberd. Not long ago on halberd four pikmin dissapeared at once from ghost pikmin... you can imagine how much I freaked out, haha.

edit: i have another theory but it'll take a lot more posting and a lot more time getting my thoughts straight to post. I'll save it for later ^^; It has to do with the pikmin before it dying and the pikmin replacing it and whatnot. Like I said, i'll post it later >.>

 

[Zori]

my friend told me another way to cure ghost pikmin....i forgot, ill ask him later

 

[Dabuz]

fino's sounds wrong because on japes my pikmin ALWAYS get stuck under the bottom of the middle platform, but thats after pikmin throw and not grabbing the ledge, hilts is definitely wrong because your pikmin are just knocked away and therefore unavailable to use until you whistle them back, that happens to me multiple times and whistle always cures it


edit: wtf happened to my sig?!

double edit: i think i know what causes, both matches which it occured were like 6 minutes, so no replays, but each time it happened when i up-b tether the ledge then immediately jump and fair before my pikmin get back in line/ invincibilty frames end (on halberd i fast falled the fair after tethering the ledge)


edit: and i tried whistle, up-b, and everything else olis can think of, but nothing fixed it, i even tried tethering the edge again

 

[DtJ Hilt]

hilts is definitely wrong because your pikmin are just knocked away and therefore unavailable to use until you whistle them back, that happens to me multiple times and whistle always cures it

wait, what? what theory are you talking about? I don't even think I said one in my last post lol. So i'm not sure what I said that was wrong

 

[Dabuz]

wait, what? what theory are you talking about? I don't even think I said one in my last post lol. So i'm not sure what I said that was wrong

sorry, i misinterpreted it, and it seems a lot of theses ghost pikmin glitches start with fairing off an edge/ when pikmin are knocked or not in the line

 

[Plasma Pikmin]

I thought most Ghost Pikmin occurrences start off with a Pikmin being killed, but no "ghost" appears when it does. That happened to me on Norfair and on Final Destination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5Ayjj81LOw

Like in that, the Blue Pikmin I fsmashed with got "killed" by Kirby's Up B, but no "ghost" appeared. It just...disappeared. Now notice, I had 2 Red Pikmin. I tossed one at Kirby, but missed, so it was coming back to me. I still had 1 Red in my line. I grabbed the ledge when the Red Pikmin was just about to get back in my line. I Uair'd under the stage. I regrab the ledge. I get back onstage, and only have 1 Red Pikmin with me when it looked like the other Red joined my line on the ledge. Then, Ghost Pikmin Glitch happened.

I think it has to do with a Pikmin being killed in an attack animation during a specific frame, like my Blue Pikmin during the Fsmash.

 

[Fino]

Again it happened right at the edge....


~Fino

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I thought most Ghost Pikmin occurrences start off with a Pikmin being killed, but no "ghost" appears when it does. That happened to me on Norfair and on Final Destination.

This is part of the theory I mentioned in my first post. Although that's only a piece of it and I'm not entirely sure if it's true and if it is, what causes the pikmin to die without creating a ghost.

Also Fino, it always happens at the ledge. That's nothing new lol

 

[DarkPikmin]

edit: wtf happened to my sig?!

double edit: i think i know what causes, both matches which it occured were like 6 minutes, so no replays, but each time it happened when i up-b tether the ledge then immediately jump and fair before my pikmin get back in line/ invincibilty frames end (on halberd i fast falled the fair after tethering the ledge)

Have the sigs have been weird lately or is it just me? They always seem to disappear when editing and the quick reply doesn't have show my sig (I have to go advanced)

I do remember having the ghost glitch after jumping and using Fair by the ledge. That seems to be key? I remember one of the threads long ago said that the ghost pikmin "slot" can be moved around with the whistle. Then up B to fix it?

Also what about desynched smashes? Are we going to get back into that or are we done with it? I know they are caused when your opponent hits a pikmin near you (returning from a smash or thrown NOT FOLLOWING BEHIND OLIMAR) then you input the smash. I have a replay of a down smash hitting above me xD.

 

[nevershootme]

even if you remedy the situation, the ghost pikmin effect kicks in again after a few throws and smashes are used and u have to re-apply the remedy.

one theory i can say is how u run around the stage (including edges). i don't have a clear explaination, but i've experienced it like 3-4 times in my brawl career.

 

[Llumys]

wewt

I was fooling around on Green Greens because I just got a texture hack for it, and I had the glitch going. I was at the edge, and I forgot what happened. I got a screenshot and a replay, and I can't record the replay. However, I could go look at the replay and explain exactly what happened step-by-step if that would serve for anything.

The yellow Pikmin was floating directly under a block on Green Greens. It wasn't explosive. ;_; I just went around the blocks to free it and the glitch was gone.

 

[Dabuz]

Also what about desynched smashes? Are we going to get back into that or are we done with it? I know they are caused when your opponent hits a pikmin near you (returning from a smash or thrown NOT FOLLOWING BEHIND OLIMAR) then you input the smash. I have a replay of a down smash hitting above me xD.

that does remind me actually, im pretty sure, ased on the fact that it only desynchs vs sword users, i believe the desynch happens when ANY DISJOINTED HITBOX HITS A PIKMIN WHO IS NOT IN LINE AND THEREFORE VULNERABLE TO ATTACKS AND THEN ANY SMASH IS USED WHEN THAT PIKMIN IS HIT, CAUSING THEM TO DO THE SMASH FROM WHERE EVER POSITION THEY ARE HIT TO IN THAT VERY SMALL TIME FRAME, it might not only be from disjointed hitboxes but i think thats the most common cause (hence why it always happens during my dsmash when fighting mks, tls, and marths)

but, for non disjointed hitboxes, it never seems to actually activate unless the pikmin is hit mid smash

 

[Weruop]

so this ghost pikmin is about when ur pikmin are follownig u, but not attacking when u try to make them.. right?

 

[Noa.]

Yes. Plasma Pikmin posted a video example in one of his posts above.

It's a very complicated topic. Finding the causes for ghost pikmin proves to be very difficult.

EDIT: This was my 900th post. I'll be at 1000 soon. Hmmm...

 

[DtJ Hilt]

so this ghost pikmin is about when ur pikmin are follownig u, but not attacking when u try to make them.. ?

Okay time to clear some things up, since a lot of people don't know what Ghost Pikmin is.

Ghost pikmin is when one or more pikmin disappear from Olimar's line as he grabs the ledge. The game thinks the pikmin is still there but it isn't. This creates a gap in olimar's line where the pikmin WOULD be. So basically this creates an empty spot, or "ghost".

This ghost follows the same rules when it isn't in the front of the line. Whenever another pikmin is used, it moves one spot forward in line. However, when it reaches to the front of the line it follows the command of being told to do the attack, but cannot actually perform it. Since it cannot perform the attack, it remains at the front of the line. Thus, unless the pikmin reappears (I haven't figured out entirely how to do so, but I know it's possible as I've seen it done once) no smashes can be used.

A temporary cure for this problem, is to whistle, which rearranges your line, including the Ghost. However, when the ghost comes back up, you're back at the same situation you were at before.

As I said before, I do not know how to permanently cure the glitch.

that does remind me actually, im pretty sure, ased on the fact that it only desynchs vs sword users, i believe the desynch happens when ANY DISJOINTED HITBOX HITS A PIKMIN WHO IS NOT IN LINE AND THEREFORE VULNERABLE TO ATTACKS AND THEN ANY SMASH IS USED WHEN THAT PIKMIN IS HIT, CAUSING THEM TO DO THE SMASH FROM WHERE EVER POSITION THEY ARE HIT TO IN THAT VERY SMALL TIME , it might not only be from disjointed hitboxes but i think thats the most common cause (hence why it always happens during my dsmash when fighting mks, tls, and marths).

but, for non disjointed hitboxes, it never seems to actually activate unless the pikmin is hit mid smash

I'm not entirely sure if you're right or not. I think it may be EASIER to attack with a desync'd pikmin while it's being hit with a disjointed attack, as I've had it happen to me when it was hit by attacks from Lucas and Ness. However there's videos of it happening from non-disjointed attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pSQAN7mXts
This video is really old but it shows that it can happen from a non disjointed attack as well.

 

[RichBrown]

I don't feel like reading any of this, and also you can usually cure the ghost pikmin glitch by just tethering a bunch, for some reason the pikmin gets back into the line when you do that. It doesn't work every time but whenever I've gotten the glitch, a lot of the time I do a few SH tethers and it comes back. It's your best bet if it ever happens, you really have nothing to lose. I get really angry at Olimars when the glitch happens to them and they don't tether haha

 

[Noa.]

A question about ghost pikmin.

Is it possible to have multiple ghost pikmin? Like two ghosts and four regular pikmin? Applying what Hilt said two posts above, would these pikmin be whistled in the color they were originally, (such as red, blue, yellow) or as a new "color" of pikmin, ghost?

 

[Dabuz]

A question about ghost pikmin.

Is it possible to have multiple ghost pikmin? Like two ghosts and four regular pikmin? Applying what Hilt said two posts above, would these pikmin be whistled in the color they were originally, (such as red, blue, yellow) or as a new "color" of pikmin, ghost?

yes, when i fought holynightmare on wifail recently i got ghost pikmin but i had 1 red that wasn't ghosted, and the other 5 were, it is possible, just unlikely

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I've had four pikmin ghosted at once on halberd, as I think I said in a previous post.

 

[RT]

my friend told me another way to cure ghost pikmin....i forgot, ill ask him later

He's referring to me.

This happened while I was playing against Stiltz, a now retired Olimar player sometime around April or May of this year. My theory consisted of attacking Olimar while he is using a Pikmin based move. The move we chose to test this with was fsmash. My theory was that by hitting Olimar while he's using the "ghost" Pikmin, it would cause the "ghost" Pikmin to get reshuffled into the back of the line. So, using Lucario, I fsmashed him while he spammed fsmash with his "ghost". And by doing so...a yellow Pikmin appeared at the end of the line even though it wasn't the Pikmin after the "ghost" one!

Is this the only way to cure it reliably? Unfortunately, we weren't able to save the replay because it happened during the last stock of a very long match. But I will say this, next time you happen to get a "ghost" Pikmin, please tell your opponent to stop attacking and test this out! I'm not sure whether the "ghost" is color specific.

I don't main Olimar, so I'll probably never get around to testing it, but I urge Olimar mains to do so. And if it ever proves to be true, then I'm glad to have figured one of Brawl's weirdest glitches.

 

[Zori]

i have hit an all time lazyness you found this thread before i told you about it....

 

[Noa.]

A possible solution to curing ghost pikmin is amazing.

I don't take it anyone can replicate ghost pikmin purposefully yet?

 

[Llumys]

Holy crap, I am amazed.

I have to tell my doubles partner about this; I'll never have to worry about wasting a stock in doubles ever again. :D

Anyway, awesome. It seems like it won't be too hard to bait your opponent into curing you.

Thanks!

Edit:

I went and looked at that replay on Green Greens I mentioned in an earlier post.

I was on a middle block on the left side, and I downsmashed with a blue and a yellow. I was facing right, and the yellow was behind me. After the block broke, I jumped onto the middle part of the stage, and a block that just fell trapped the yellow Pikmin.

I don't think this is a good example, but it's worth mentioning.