Getting Better Results at Large Tournaments

[Nicole]

Okay, so, I've been thinking about a couple things with our character. I guess I'm posting this so I can hear your guys' opinions/advice/disagreements/questions/etc. I had at0msk stay with me for a couple days and he said something that concerned me and made me want to place better, which was:

"Any placing that has more than one of the same number is a bad placing."

So anything lower than 4th, basically. Now, we, as Peaches, almost ALWAYS place lower than 4th at any tournament with more than 20ish people, am I right? I don't think that has anything to do with our character. There's nothing bad enough about Peach that we shouldn't be able to place better. Ike, Wolf, and Sonic do it all the time. Is Peach worse than them?

If the problem does not lie with the character, it must lie with the players.

1) Killing Meta Knight.
-> I say killing MK in particular, because he is the character that we lose to often in tournament and the one than we can hit with moves the least - his aerials outspeed ours and his ground game outranges ours. He can kill us early at times while we cannot really do the same to him. Even if you're behind, catching MK's % up to your own shouldn't be a problem. It's taking the stock that really makes things difficult. Of course, this killing problem applies to all characters to a degree.
-> Our best kill option against MK is Uair, imo. The best thing to do, then, would be to bait a shuttle loop/fh something and hit him, but that's easier said than done. It's not like good MKs are going to shuttle loop unsafely very often. And many MKs on their last stock (all the good ones) are going to be very very cautious. They aren't just going to run into moves, and they can punish Peach for throwing out moves and expecting them to run into kills.
-> What do you guys think is the best solution for killing MK? If you and he are both around 160%, how do you get the kill before him?

2) Glidetossing turnips down as a quick movement.
-> I also play Zamus and Diddy, and both these characters use glidetossing down as an effective approach. So I was experimenting with this, and I feel that Peach can use glidetossing down (if you time it so that she slides the maximum distance) to increase her ground mobility. It takes only 3 turnips glidetossed down to get across Smashville. I think that's pretty good distance. It's faster than running.
-> The problem with doing this is that, while it slides you over to your opponent quickly, all they have to do is any move, and you'll get hit out of your glide. So this is especially hard to do against characters with projectiles, or grounded characters that Peach typically approaches in the air. However, against characters like Marth, Wolf, Kirby, etc, that try to wall Peach in the air, it can be very effective to get under them and punish. Theoretically, you should be able to punish any aerial, and you want to bait your opponent into doing an unsafe aerial by staying at a safe distance away and acting like you're going to approach with float.
-> This can be effective (in theory) by waiting for your opponent to jump, then glidetossing down so that you end up underneath them. You can hit them with any grounded move (since the turnip is gone), and you probably have time to nair/bair. This is a good way to land Usmashes, if you are good at reading. What do you think? Could this be a fairly reliable way to get early kills with Usmash, or is it too risky and too easily punished to ever be very useful?

3) Smash DI.
-> I think we all need to work on Smash DI. Think about it. MK is Fairing you off the stage. You SDI the first 2 hits and end up behind him. Your bair comes out in 6 frames. He's dead.
-> Peach is already good at getting out of moves due to her floaty nature. If we learn to SDI every multi-hit move, we can easily punish it. Remember who uses multi-hit moves as staples in their game.This is just a tiny list:
Snakes Ftilt/Nair
Wario's Dair/Nair
Diddy's Dash attack/Fsmash/Usmash
MK's Fair/Nair/Bair/Ftilt
Marth's Side B/Nair
IC's Blizzard/Squall Hammer
-> SDI can also help you live longer. This is something that you can easily practice with a friend who isn't even good, or something you can do even with computers. Just walk into things and work on SDI-ing multi-hit moves/kill moves. You'll be amazed. SDI is something that many other characters need to work on more than Peach, because they don't get out of combos/multi-hit moves as easily as she naturally does. It's something that I think we all take for granted, and something that we don't abuse enough.

I think improving on 3, finding solutions for 1, and testing 2 further could really help us place better. Placing is the most important thing we can do for our character. I place very inconsistently and I hate that. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, or perhaps you place consistently, but it's mediocre and you want to do consistently better.

Thoughts?

 

[Razmakazi]

1. I think you're half right. Peach is probably better or as good as those characters and sure we probably could be getting better but all of those characters you named have more kill power and more potential kill set-ups that Peach does (in ike's case he just has to hit you. >_< ). They also have more air speed and actual airdodges. And in Wolf and Sonic's case they overall just have way better mobility that Peach does. But yeah on the other hand it does make little sense that despite what those characters have that Peach doesn't that they still do better than Peach, especially Ike lol. At any rate, the best solution would probably be to let the kill come to you because everybody has trouble killing everybody in brawl if people play well enough and gay enough. It's not hard at all to avoid moves that you don't want to get hit by so you should just focus on staying alive and hitting people with the easiest move to land in whatever situation until they **** up and you kill them.

2. The typical ways I use a glide toss approach is glide toss upwards on an airborne opponent into utilt (true combo)/uair and glide tossing forward against a landing opponent. However other glide toss approaches can be better than you'd think. If someone is grounded you can still space the approach so you're outside of their range anyway. Besides, that's normally how you should be spacing so even though it looks like you did something nooby you really didn't so it can be good bait. It'd also be helpful to know which of her turnip throws (uthrow, forward throw, dthrow) has the least ending lag so we can figure out how to b.s people with gay baits.

3. Very important. It rly does help knowing how to react to gay moves like sdi'ing up + nairing falco's jab, sdi'ing straight behind pit's angel ring, escaping gay combos like mk's uair strings or fox/luigi/squirtle's utilt bs. hmm and this would help against zss since all 3 of her jabs actually hit her. It's basically just a testament to how important reaction is in brawl.

 

[¿Qué?]

God, this is interesting. I've used glide tossing away from the opponent for distance, and it works pretty well.

I kinda wanna say a little something about 1.

As time progresses I see more and more Peach players not having an impossible time with Meta-Knight anymore. I do understand that this is probably the most used character just to win tournaments. I feel that we should worry more about Falco and Marth. Just because they don't always place above Meta-Knight doesn't mean that it won't be an issue. They can still knock us out early game.

IMO our toughest match-ups in specific order are..

Marth
Falco
Meta-Knight
Snake

Falco and Meta can switch places according to the Peach player's MU experience in each.


But I totally agree with everything, though.

 

[Eddie G]

Eh...I've already pondered every detail you posted up there, but it's still a good post for those who haven't. Glidetossing down is, like everything else, situational. I recommend using it primarily as a means of chase.

Killing MK...you just have to catch the player offguard and beat them to the punch when it matters; that's going to be the case for any character you face in that situation. The only factor influenced by their character choice will be the difficulty of the exchange.

I agree, smash DI is important, all DI is. [brag-ish] I'm good at all forms of Brawl DI thanks to my experience with quick paced Melee DI (especially in situations like SDIing Fox's u-throw > uair or avoiding the second hit of Fox's uair, something that is a must know for the Melee Jiggs and Peach players out there), excluding the factor of being surprised for self-explanatory reasons. Because of that, the reactionary demand in Brawl seems like a walk in the park to me honestly. [/brag-ish]

That being said, is it even possible to consistently SDI MK's f-tilt and fair? The frame window for his fair (if a reasonable one exists) seems rather ridiculous and his multi-hits are the only attacks I have yet to consistently SDI out of excluding Nado. I can SDI his single, stronger hits/kill moves just fine, but the former is what gives me trouble.

 

[Razmakazi]

sdi'ing bair isn't hard or jab or his fair if he hits u while ur airbone. i think it'd be a little ridiculous to try to sdi out of a straight grounded fair to the face but maybe it's possibly. ima test it ;o

hmm and ftilt seems hard but it's for sure possible if ppl do it to snake and i know felix from what i heard consistently does it.

 

[z00ted]

[brag-ish] Yeah, I agree placing consistently is important. I'm fairly new and I think I've been placing pretty well (except for once) considering the competition and my prior experience. I don't entirely agree with Atomsk though, lower than 4th, bad? Nah definitely not for our character - and we also have to think about how many entrants are in it as well as who is in it. One of these days I do believe though that I can place top 4 at a HOBO, it's not out of the question at all for me. Consistency goes hand in hand with practice and who you play alot. If you play high players all the time, and keep up, you're bound to place better and keep on placing better.

Killing Metaknight isn't a problem for me anymore. It's NOT getting killed by Metaknight or screwing up too early. Metaknight actually isn't really a big issue for me anymore unless it's like a top (M2K, Tyrant, Lee, Anti) sorta thing. I almost have this matchup on lock.

I understand what you're getting at with the glidetossing turnips down thing, and I actually do it all the time. I just glidetoss them up.

I have to agree with the smash DI stuff. It helps Peach tremendously. I'm really good at it.

k I'm done. [/brag-ish]

 

[Nicole]

That being said, is it even possible to consistently SDI MK's f-tilt and fair? The frame window for his fair (if a reasonable one exists) seems rather ridiculous and his multi-hits are the only attacks I have yet to consistently SDI out of excluding Nado. I can SDI his single, stronger hits/kill moves just fine, but the former is what gives me trouble.

I can sdi his fair kind of consistently with olimar...which makes no sense. but as long as you're in the air with him when he fairs, i'm pretty sure you can sdi it.

[brag-ish] Yeah, I agree placing consistently is important. I'm fairly new and I think I've been placing pretty well (except for once) considering the competition and my prior experience. I don't entirely agree with Atomsk though, lower than 4th, bad? Nah definitely not for our character - and we also have to think about how many entrants are in it as well as who is in it. [/brag-ish]

Yeah but that's what I'm saying. Characters that I consider (and the community by way of the tier list considers) worse than Peach place better than her. Sonic, for example, places in top 5 at medium sized tournaments (35+) on a regular basis, and it isn't just ONE Sonic doing it. Ill, you have Espy down in TX. When doesn't he place in top 5, regardless of the size of the tournament or who enters? Is Sonic better than Peach? He has just as many unfavorable high tier MU's as we do - MK, Wario, Marth, GW, Diddy. You can't use our character as an excuse.

 

[z00ted]

Someone will break top five at a 55+ man tournament.
Soon too.

 

[deepseadiva]

If the problem does not lie with the character, it must lie with the players.

I'm glad this is slowly getting more accepted. The facts have always been present, and I only have respect for those that acknowledge "It's me".

1) Killing Meta Knight.

Killing is always gonna be the major issue. Personally, and in my opinion, these are the things I'm trying to incorporate:

• Usmash

I remember waaay back Edrees said "Fair is my spacing and usmash is my kill move", and I was like, "wat". It's kinda slow and it's a teeny hitbox - it's our hardest move to land. You're never gonna land it. ...this used to be my old perception, and I think it was very hindering. Once you get it into your head "This isn't going to work", it creeps into your playstyle, and your usmash never does work. You always end up hitting with the weak hitbox, and it's crushing. Thing is, it's not because the move lacks the needed range, it's because you've never been using usmash, you don't have the precise spacing ingrained. When you actually start throwing it out, when you go for the "hard reads" Pierce was talking about, you can find the openings. All you need is one usmash kill a game, and Peach is set.

So, start using usmash.

Question: Have you thoroughly gone through this thread?

• DToss Turnip -> Fair

Hopefully not everyone has forgotten this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH8lnKS64lU

Dair hits on frame 12.

Turnip Down Toss hits on from 7.

Think about how often you land SH dair, and how many openings you find with it. Now replace it with a kill set-up. Start scoring more kills.

• "Saving" Fair

Timeless advice, I know, but how is this even remotely realistic? What you do is you completly replace your "spacing" with bair. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that fair is a bad move. It's slow, it's telegraphed, when your floating forward: HRM WHAT IS PEACH GONNA DO? And I think, as the crutch move, it ends up hurting us in match-ups we really shouldn't be using it in. See: MK, Marth, Lucario. When you replace fair with bair, your using a faster move that lasts longer and most importantly: not using your really fantastic kill move.

2) Glidetossing turnips down as a quick movement.

I don't see the advantages of using down toss over up toss...?

For mobility, learn bonewalking, freepulling, and (something I'm still trying to even do twice) turnip dashing. I'm really racing to be the first one to perform it in tournament, because it sounds so good - but it's hard.

3) Smash DI.

Agreed with this, and all concluding statements.

 

[Metatitan]

I've seen soooooo many people telling people to save their Fair and I've even tried to do it. It doesn't work people, you NEED Fair. It's probably the only aerial that is pretty safe against a PS and Bair sticks your hurtbox out with you, not to mention it's much easier to punish than Fair. You will never be able to save Fair without hindering yourself. Just saaaaaayin.

Also up smash sucks, it'd be much more useful if Peach ran faster.

 

[Excel_Zero]

2) Glidetossing turnips down as a quick movement.
-> I also play Zamus and Diddy, and both these characters use glidetossing down as an effective approach. So I was experimenting with this, and I feel that Peach can use glidetossing down (if you time it so that she slides the maximum distance) to increase her ground mobility. It takes only 3 turnips glidetossed down to get across Smashville. I think that's pretty good distance. It's faster than running.
-> The problem with doing this is that, while it slides you over to your opponent quickly, all they have to do is any move, and you'll get hit out of your glide. So this is especially hard to do against characters with projectiles, or grounded characters that Peach typically approaches in the air. However, against characters like Marth, Wolf, Kirby, etc, that try to wall Peach in the air, it can be very effective to get under them and punish. Theoretically, you should be able to punish any aerial, and you want to bait your opponent into doing an unsafe aerial by staying at a safe distance away and acting like you're going to approach with float.
-> This can be effective (in theory) by waiting for your opponent to jump, then glidetossing down so that you end up underneath them. You can hit them with any grounded move (since the turnip is gone), and you probably have time to nair/bair. This is a good way to land Usmashes, if you are good at reading. What do you think? Could this be a fairly reliable way to get early kills with Usmash, or is it too risky and too easily punished to ever be very useful?

I know at least one good use for this, and that is punishing Falco's Shine. Lots of Falcos tend to use shine against Peach when she is holding a turnip so the turnip hits Peach, but since throwing down doesn't have a hitbox then this means he won't reflect anything. So the process is shielding the shine, glide tossing down and punishing him with w/e (I'm not sure if sweetspotted upsmash works, you should check it out).

Throwing down is a few frames faster than throwing at any other direction, so I'm sure this has some good uses to punish certain moves. I never got to experiment much with this since I discovered this a little bit before quitting Brawl. =\

 

[z00ted]

Excel Zero with them 09 metagame changing secrets!

Falco 45: 55 anyone?

 

[Meru.]

Okay, so, I've been thinking about a couple things with our character. I guess I'm posting this so I can hear your guys' opinions/advice/disagreements/questions/etc. I had at0msk stay with me for a couple days and he said something that concerned me and made me want to place better, which was:

"Any placing that has more than one of the same number is a bad placing."

I cant really agree with that. Good is subjective (what is good for you?) and a good placing is relative to your other placings. If you keep placing 25th at tourneys with 60+ persons, and then suddenly place 9th in a 100+ tourney, then that placing is truly amazing.

I do understand it coming for that person's mouth though, since he usually places top 4.

So anything lower than 4th, basically. Now, we, as Peaches, almost ALWAYS place lower than 4th at any tournament with more than 20ish people, am I right? I don't think that has anything to do with our character. There's nothing bad enough about Peach that we shouldn't be able to place better. Ike, Wolf, and Sonic do it all the time. Is Peach worse than them?
If the problem does not lie with the character, it must lie with the players.

I agree, and no, she definitely isn't worse.

1) Killing Meta Knight.
-> I say killing MK in particular, because he is the character that we lose to often in tournament and the one than we can hit with moves the least - his aerials outspeed ours and his ground game outranges ours. He can kill us early at times while we cannot really do the same to him. Even if you're behind, catching MK's % up to your own shouldn't be a problem. It's taking the stock that really makes things difficult. Of course, this killing problem applies to all characters to a degree.
-> Our best kill option against MK is Uair, imo. The best thing to do, then, would be to bait a shuttle loop/fh something and hit him, but that's easier said than done. It's not like good MKs are going to shuttle loop unsafely very often. And many MKs on their last stock (all the good ones) are going to be very very cautious. They aren't just going to run into moves, and they can punish Peach for throwing out moves and expecting them to run into kills.
-> What do you guys think is the best solution for killing MK? If you and he are both around 160%, how do you get the kill before him?

- Tbh, I think Peach's strength actually turns into a weakness here: Floating Dair or just even floating above MK for that matter. It turns into a habit eventually and it's something that has to be stopped vs MK, because floating above him = eating an aerial or Shuttle Loop. I played against a MK and I seriously couldn't float or even jump at all, since every jump would get punished. I wouldn't stop jumping, simply because it got to be a habit of mine, even though I knew Peach would get punished and that she even had much more and better options other than floating/jumping.

- Lately, I dont really fish for a kill anymore. They will come. Second, I've figured that Peach really needs pressure in order to kill. This is why I've been using jab a lot more often. Jab is so fast, it leads to pressure which leads to a kill. You don't immediatly have to throw out a kill move. That's what I think at least.

- How do you punish shuttle loop? @_@

2) Glidetossing turnips down as a quick movement.
-> I also play Zamus and Diddy, and both these characters use glidetossing down as an effective approach. So I was experimenting with this, and I feel that Peach can use glidetossing down (if you time it so that she slides the maximum distance) to increase her ground mobility. It takes only 3 turnips glidetossed down to get across Smashville. I think that's pretty good distance. It's faster than running.
-> The problem with doing this is that, while it slides you over to your opponent quickly, all they have to do is any move, and you'll get hit out of your glide. So this is especially hard to do against characters with projectiles, or grounded characters that Peach typically approaches in the air. However, against characters like Marth, Wolf, Kirby, etc, that try to wall Peach in the air, it can be very effective to get under them and punish. Theoretically, you should be able to punish any aerial, and you want to bait your opponent into doing an unsafe aerial by staying at a safe distance away and acting like you're going to approach with float.
-> This can be effective (in theory) by waiting for your opponent to jump, then glidetossing down so that you end up underneath them. You can hit them with any grounded move (since the turnip is gone), and you probably have time to nair/bair. This is a good way to land Usmashes, if you are good at reading. What do you think? Could this be a fairly reliable way to get early kills with Usmash, or is it too risky and too easily punished to ever be very useful?

- Meeeh... I've thought about it too. It's a good mix-up I guess, but I prefer throwing a turnip up. I'll try it anyway.

- I recommend people to learn how to quickly float hop, like a Japanese Peach. I'm still learning and trying to implement it into my own game, but I can see a lot of benefit of using this "technique", and it also helps her ground mobility.

3) Smash DI.
-> I think we all need to work on Smash DI. Think about it. MK is Fairing you off the stage. You SDI the first 2 hits and end up behind him. Your bair comes out in 6 frames. He's dead.
-> Peach is already good at getting out of moves due to her floaty nature. If we learn to SDI every multi-hit move, we can easily punish it. Remember who uses multi-hit moves as staples in their game.This is just a tiny list:
Snakes Ftilt/Nair
Wario's Dair/Nair
Diddy's Dash attack/Fsmash/Usmash
MK's Fair/Nair/Bair/Ftilt
Marth's Side B/Nair
IC's Blizzard/Squall Hammer
-> SDI can also help you live longer. This is something that you can easily practice with a friend who isn't even good, or something you can do even with computers. Just walk into things and work on SDI-ing multi-hit moves/kill moves. You'll be amazed. SDI is something that many other characters need to work on more than Peach, because they don't get out of combos/multi-hit moves as easily as she naturally does. It's something that I think we all take for granted, and something that we don't abuse enough.

- I agree. Her floatiness is a great advantage for SDI'ing things and I think we should all improve it. I suck at SDI'ing myself, but I will definitely work at that. Peach's DI is pretty good too. FF Dair ftw!

I think improving on 3, finding solutions for 1, and testing 2 further could really help us place better. Placing is the most important thing we can do for our character. I place very inconsistently and I hate that. I'm sure many of you feel the same way, or perhaps you place consistently, but it's mediocre and you want to do consistently better.

Thoughts?

We'll see the light eventually .

 

[¿Qué?]

- I recommend people to learn how to quickly float hop, like a Japanese Peach. I'm still learning and trying to implement it into my own game, but I can see a lot of benefit of using this "technique", and it also helps her ground mobility.


:

@.@ What is this I don't even?

Explain?

 

[z00ted]

it's not that good.

 

[deepseadiva]

I've seen soooooo many people telling people to save their Fair

Lol, when I wrote that I was imagining you and Dark as saying that.

It doesn't work people, you NEED Fair.

I'm thinking you don't. You don't NEED to pressure shields with fair. You don't NEED to go for those small punishes with it. Fair walling isn't nearly as effective as bair walling is. Start using bair in all those situations, or go for smaller things like turnip pulls, jabs, and ftilts/dtilts, and without changing anything about Peach: you've genuinely solved her killing problem. It's a player issue, always has been, always will.

One thing I've been meaning to look into is figuring out when to stop using fair during a stock. Due to how matches play out and move decay, we could probably spam fair from somewhere around 0-80%, save it till 130%, and voila. When I say "save fair", I don't mean never use it. Just replace it and use it intelligently so that by the time KO percents come around, fair just happens to be fresh.

Also up smash sucks, it'd be much more useful if Peach ran faster.

This is the negative mentality I was talking about. "Usmash sucks", well DUH. Ay mijito.

Listen, we can complain about how usmash isn't as good as this, or usmash doesn't have that, but in the end it's a very average move with a ridiculous pay-off. We compare and contrast Fox versus Peach - it's funny how our usmash is actually stronger. Sure it takes more than run->usmash for us to land ours, but it's not difficult. It's a read as small as "He's gonna jump and do an aerial" or "He's going to jump from the ledge". And again, it only takes one.

Think about how often we collectively "almost" win matches. A single move could have fixed every one of those.

How do you punish shuttle loop? @_@

Shield and then FH uair/nair. It's an essential punish in the match-up.

- I recommend people to learn how to quickly float hop, like a Japanese Peach. I'm still learning and trying to implement it into my own game, but I can see a lot of benefit of using this "technique", and it also helps her ground mobility.

I'm incorporating it as well, but all it is is mindgame material - which I'm not saying is weak, it's actually an incredibly strong tool, but it's not going to help Peach's speed issue. It's slower than running.

Everyone needs to start spamming float hopping.

 

[z00ted]

Float -> Footstool.

SOOO GOOD

 

[Razmakazi]

lol ill that's the '08 nikok


hmm and i disagree manny about bair walling being better than fair walling. fair has more range, u can space it farther back, it's super disjointed, and u don't have to aim to hit people for it to be effective. the hitbox can't safely be approached if your spacing is tight enough so in essence every fair would just be a bait.

bair is good as has a lot of uses but fair is just a better move with more uses b/c of the crown not being a hurtbox, b/c of the range, b/c of the swooping disjoint.

 

[SuSa]

*coughs* I agree with Meta.

You can't just repace your best move. It's your best move for spacing. It's your safest on powershield. It's the only move Snake can't reliably punish. I found that out a long time ago when I fought Edrees/Raz (trust me, this was practically a year and a half ago...) but their spacing was still good.

The only move I couldn't punish of theirs was fair. I'd punish the bair most every time, and Peach can't get close enough on the ground to do jack ****. You guys need fair.

However I do agree with trying to use it more sparingly when you're getting closer to kill %'s so that its fresh when you do use it.

 

[Meru.]

This is the negative mentality I was talking about. "Usmash sucks", well DUH. Ay mijito.

I agree. Being narrow-minded doesn't help at all.

Listen, we can complain about how usmash isn't as good as this, or usmash doesn't have that, but in the end it's a very average move with a ridiculous pay-off. We compare and contrast Fox versus Peach - it's funny how our usmash is actually stronger. Sure it takes more than run->usmash for us to land ours, but it's not difficult. It's a read as small as "He's gonna jump and do an aerial" or "He's going to jump from the ledge". And again, it only takes one.

Think about how often we collectively "almost" win matches. A single move could have fixed every one of those.

Hmm...

Since Usmash got more important, I think it might help if I'd sum up the good and bad things of Usmash.

Let's start with the bad news:
- Start-up is frame 14. That's quite slow...
- ... but not as slow as the horrid ending lag ----> very unsafe on shield
- Sweetspot range is soooo small
- No reliable set-ups

Good stuff:
- ******** reward. The normal sweetspot is really, really strong. The super sweetspot is just LOL.
- ******** priority... seriously. You can beat Link's Dair... you can actually beat a lot of Dairs.
- The vertical range is pretty decent.
- Sourspotted? Big deal. Your opponent is in a horrid position now, take advantage of that!
- Sourspot range is not so small

Shield and then FH uair/nair. It's an essential punish in the match-up.

Thanks! I hate SL so much, hopefully this will make my life a tad easier.

I'm incorporating it as well, but all it is is mindgame material - which I'm not saying is weak, it's actually an incredibly strong tool, but it's not going to help Peach's speed issue. It's slower than running.

Everyone needs to start spamming float hopping.

But... the way the Japanese do it, it makes me go WHOAA. It doesn't completely cover her speed issue, but it does help so. And it's also great for approaching as you can do practically everything out of a float hop.

 

[Nicole]

usmash is safe on shield if you charge it for awhile. it has ******** shieldpush. not saying you should do this often, but if you see that they're going to shield your usmash, you should charge it and they will be too far away to punish you AS WELL as they could have, most likely.

 

[Meru.]

usmash is safe on shield if you charge it for awhile. it has ******** shieldpush. not saying you should do this often, but if you see that they're going to shield your usmash, you should charge it and they will be too far away to punish you AS WELL as they could have, most likely.

I completely forgot to mention shieldpush, thanks for reminding me. It's the biggest reason why Usmash ***** close to ledges. If they shield it, they simply fall off ;p.

 

[Metatitan]

If you're opponent is smart you won't land up smash often. I still try for it but it just doesn't happen people.

 

[Gameswithgoodies]

If you're opponent is smart you won't land up smash often. I still try for it but it just doesn't happen people.

Think about how often we collectively "almost" win matches. A single move could have fixed every one of those.

landing it once is enough and if you look for the opportunity you can get one-upsmash kill once a match during most matches..

 

[Razmakazi]

If you're opponent is smart you won't land up smash often. I still try for it but it just doesn't happen people.

but i land usmash often enough vs smart people a lot. it's not something you just go for but you can condition habits out of people or just notice very simple patterns like a falco going for double laser or when u expect a wolf/DK/etc. to extend his hurtbox to you as he attempts to bair you.

i land usmash often enough to know that you don't need some manner of ridiculous read to get that kill. not that it's easy or not that you expect to land it all the time but it's good to put the fear in people to naturally cut off their options.

 

[Nicole]

(I'm not sure if sweetspotted upsmash works, you should check it out).

i THINK it works if you're pretty much right on top of him. he's a tall enough character. you have to have pretty good timing though, like usmashing him after he usmashes your shield - you have to do it at the max range usmash will hit and not waste any time. but really, something like nair would be way faster and would kill him too. not like glidetossing down to get somwhere has to end with usmash.

i didnt know you still came to the peach boards, excel. nice to see you around <3

 

[Scaphist]

I know at least one good use for this, and that is punishing Falco's Shine. Lots of Falcos tend to use shine against Peach when she is holding a turnip so the turnip hits Peach, but since throwing down doesn't have a hitbox then this means he won't reflect anything. So the process is shielding the shine, glide tossing down and punishing him with w/e (I'm not sure if sweetspotted upsmash works, you should check it out).

**** I thought I was the first to do this.

 

[LanceStern]

- I recommend people to learn how to quickly float hop, like a Japanese Peach. I'm still learning and trying to implement it into my own game, but I can see a lot of benefit of using this "technique", and it also helps her ground mobility.

@.@ What is this I don't even?

Explain?

it's not that good.

It's this

You don't need it to win, but it definitely helps the ground game.

*cough cough*

Spoiler

Changing direction
Using it to punish

 

[Excel_Zero]

i didnt know you still came to the peach boards, excel. nice to see you around <3

I like to drop in and check things out every once in a while. =]

Btw, I've heard great things from Ling Ling about you, Nicole. Keep it up, I'm rooting for you.

 

[¿Qué?]

It's this

You don't need it to win, but it definitely helps the ground game.

*cough cough*

Spoiler

Changing direction
Using it to punish

OHHH. That..

I always do that. XD!

I figured out wasping my first week of brawl with Peach. :3 I just didn't know what it was called until I looked it up.

 

[z00ted]

lol ill that's the '08 nikok

yet I see noone do it these days.

 

[Razmakazi]

now that i think about it a footstool punish would be quicker than a dair punish so footstool into that would be good. i wonder if bair/fair is guaranteed out of footstool to float. well bair prob is but i wonder about fair ;o

 

[¿Qué?]

now that i think about it a footstool punish would be quicker than a dair punish so footstool into that would be good. i wonder if bair/fair is guaranteed out of footstool to float. well bair prob is but i wonder about fair ;o

Foot stool> Float> Z drop Turnip> Fair(or if you FF fast enough you can go into a Bair lock).

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

I'll read this tomorrow

 

[Meru.]

It's this

You don't need it to win, but it definitely helps the ground game.

*cough cough*

Spoiler

Changing direction
Using it to punish

I actually meant the regular float hop :o. But they do this too and Im trying it too.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

illmatic's post sure had a lot about himself in it XD.

I also feel that some smasher's performance changes depending on certain people or characters appear. Its just another mindset that players need to fix. Also a lot of players have in there head that they need to be always doing something or they won't win. We should all abuse and remember the fact that we have 8 minutes which is plenty of time for you to collect yourself. Keeping the lead and pinishing mistakes and or things that can just be punished all together.

I find throwing turnips up very good against a lot of characters that like to run away. Also I don't know if it works for anyone else but when I turnip drop or down throw from the air I attack afterwards only to get the turnip back and it puts me in a perfect position that grabs it and its the enemy safely at the same time. And us as Peach players should keep in mind when we pull a turnip we don't have throw it right away. It is also a punishing too and a attack leader.

 

[hiROI]

For the whole usmash ordeal, I think that we should focus more on ways to connect with usmash than just trying to hit with usmash. For example, I was playing Kyon the other week and he was Snake and he air dodged to the ground. I was not close enough for the usmash, but if the opponent airdodges to the ground, you can ground float dair into an usmash. Also, try platforms for USmash! For example battlefield. When the character is on the lower platforms, ground float upair them, so they get pushed off the ledge if they are shielding, and you can just go for the usmash.

I'll add more later, but I'm currently reviewing for the PSAT D;

 

[Dark.Pch]

That being said, is it even possible to consistently SDI MK's f-tilt and fair? The frame window for his fair (if a reasonable one exists) seems rather ridiculous and his multi-hits are the only attacks I have yet to consistently SDI out of excluding Nado. I can SDI his single, stronger hits/kill moves just fine, but the former is what gives me trouble.

Hold away from meta when you get hit. You don't even need the C stick. No need at all for SDI. Same with his Nado. Just hold up. I had to tell with a meta at the tourny that just nada spammed. I broke out 80% of the time. Then punish with Nair or footstoll him out of Nado. I was telling Nicole to do this in one of her matches at apex.

I've seen soooooo many people telling people to save their Fair and I've even tried to do it. It doesn't work people, you NEED Fair. It's probably the only aerial that is pretty safe against a PS and Bair sticks your hurtbox out with you, not to mention it's much easier to punish than Fair. You will never be able to save Fair without hindering yourself. Just saaaaaayin.

Also up smash sucks, it'd be much more useful if Peach ran faster.

I seriously hate when people say this. You do not need to be abusing her Fair. Do you not realize what you are doing by abusing the move? This is one major reason people place bad or to a point they should be by now. People will be ready to see you go in so much with fair. Why are you gonna give the enemy what they want then lose? Ifthe enemy is gonna be thinking this and expect typical Peach play,why not mind **** them right here and hit them with something else.

Also,just because YOU can't do it, dosent mean everyone will fail at it and it can't be done. Cause I have actually learned to do this, Thanks to training with some good NYC Peeps.

With DDD, You really don't need to abuse fair.Bone walking and free pull screw over DDD hard. You camp him like hell.he is too slow to stop all this effectively. Go in a few times with Fair to ether hit him and space.Then go to camping him. Go in with nairs or space it on his shield. if you space it correctly, DDD can't punish you at all. Next you havespaced Bairsto reverse Jabs or Spaces Dairs to a single To w/e. Like some jab cancels. Then mixing all that up with grabs. Since you are doing all this, that fat duck will be in his shield alot waiting to strike. So mindgame his *** and get some grabs. Around this time you are eating his shield. And then getting some damage. And you can keep doing this till he is ready to die. And look, your Fair is still fresh. and you also have your other kill moves fresh.

Hmm,who else,...................... snake. Snake knows better to fight you in the air. You can glide toss to a ground floated spaced nair,then Jab to ether a jab cancel or another spaced Nair to wether. or hit him if heis not shielding and link all. Spaced bairs to reversed buffered jabs are good too. Apply this with what I said on how to handle snake .Moves are fresh and you harldy had to use fair.

Let see.........lucario. For his Fair chains, attack inbetween then with your bair.Don't do yours out first. Let him do it. You can easily hit him inbetween. Mix up camping and pressure. You don't really need touse Fair on Lucario. Really when that move can't leave you to be a sitting duck on him. Jab pressure or jab cancel to spaced moves. All he can do is roll, and pay attention to it to punish. Also Nair helps when up close to himand Ground floated pressure when spaced. Then of course get your grabs in and mix good turnip play. Dude is nearly to his death and then you have a fresh fair and even other kill movesto end this fool.

The fact that you think people need to abuse fair is one reason people. You seriously think by this time in the gamewith this character people are not gonna expect this? You need to learn how to save this move against every match up. figure out how to get damage on everyone till they are ready to die. Peach fair is 17 frames max range. And you gonna abuse that? That move is not that hard to stop dude.Thats why DK, DDD, KIRBY,and WOLF have a field day with thier Bair on Peaches that wanna go in with fair. Thats why Lucario has fun on you with his Fair. it's likea ganon and falcon going in with Punches so much. That's not smart. Seriously, quick reaction time,that move is not hard to stop by ANY character in this game. I honest feel no one should even lose to a Peach that uses Fair alot.

This is a problem that also relates to air happy Peach players. Always in the air. People already know how good her air game is. So will be expecting it and ready to punish. And the air happy Peach player gives it to them. Then get pusnied by attacks. They are forced to fight on the ground alot and have lil to no ground game. Cause they focus so much on being in the air.

I have said this many times, aggressives Peach play gets the beats. This is why I say doing this is bad. So many problems accure when you play like this. This is one of the main reasons Peach gets the results she does. When she should be doing better. No excuse for this.

So stop thinking Peach needs to abuse fair so much. Let your opponent that. And then mind **** them for thinking so. That's how it is done.

Yaaay- I recommend people to learn how to quickly float hop, like a Japanese Peach. I'm still learning and trying to implement it into my own game, but I can see a lot of benefit of using this "technique", and it also helps her ground mobility.

Yea,I started doing this a lil over a month ago and put it into my game. And I am upset I not done it before. it's one of her most useful tools she has. You can stop in placeand do w/e you want. Or bait reactions. Not many here got into melee hardcore and understood the use of wave dashing. But you can somewhat use this tool as wave dashing. Run to someone, float hop, then run the other direction, then jump cancel a turnip behind you to hit the enemy. Or run to them, then Float Hop to a Dsmash. can also do it to jab combos. or just do it a few times to confuse your enemy. Helps with foot work and you are hard to read. Can also do this to adash dance (one dash dance) to a instant dash attack (Tap the stick foward and C stick down)

It'sall about mindgames and THINKING OUT THE BOX. Playing logical and Typical gets you beat up. Peach is a stratigic character. Not some rambo rushing character. You are not meta knight. So people need to stop playing like they are.

Now for This thread in genreal. All this stuff was covered so many times.But all this is not the problem. it is the players behind Peach. I honestly don'tcare how many wanna get madat me for this.But it is the truth. Peach players are not on some pro level yet. And reasons for that are things I explained in this thread and in the "BBR Peach talk"thread. People seem to get really offended when I say this around here. if you wanna get better,except the truth. You should not take it as saying you are horrible and etc. it's nothing bad. it's just a fact that people are not at pro level along the lines like people who play worst characters then Peach.

There is no excuse up to this point. AT ALL. People need to abuse all Peach can do. Stop playing aggressive, seriously, CUT IT OUT! Stop thinking you need to fair all the time and learn how you can fight and get damage with limit use of it. Learn how to get every character to their death %. Peach is a stratigic character She has so much ****, it is almost insane. Mix and match your tools. Play around with stuff. FREAKING MINDGAMES MAN! Thats what peach is. So abuse it with all the stuff she can do. Tones of people lack mindgames. And that is important. Just knowing your character and being good/decent is not enough. That is one thing that seperates people from pros. Matter allthe things Peach can do.You seriously need it. You limit yourself hard buy not using them. Almost like you are sandbagging.

And last,accept the fact that none on are on pro level. Except that you all have problems that by this time should have been dealt with. Don'tgo to a tourny,do well then think you are hawt **** or the best Peach,etc. That right there already is making you bad. There is no excuse,there is no johns, there is no hype to make yourself feel good or bias crap to feel good after getting whooped.Do all this and you will see a change in everything.

it took my dumb as to remember and do all of this. ANd i still have much work to do to start beasting like the good old days.Now everyone go to the same and quit loseing to these pansy characters cause of crap like this.

 

[Eddie G]

Good post Dark.

I'll add some insight as well: more Peaches need to work on developing the quickest and most versatile out of shield game possible. That has been my focus these past 6 months and I'm seeing a lot of improvement over former mental walls because of it. I've advanced from HM to 6th in Ohio so far so I must be doing something right... xD

Know the quickest options you have in any given situation, and learn to acknowledge if there are situations where your options are not quite worth it and you should retreat and live to fight another day. I see a lot of unnecessary and early KOs landed on Peaches because they just don't know when to reset their positioning and instead try to fight through a sticky situation.

I've been utilizing a lot of groundfloat movement (into any option since it cancels back into standing, simple concept but full of win and unique to our character) and float canceled aerials OoS because they're quick. Floatcanceled bairs OoS are revolutionary for us against the MK matchup and have made my defensive play against him that much more effective.

This game focuses heavily on quick reaction time to beat your opponent and some people simply don't have quick reaction time, this is a given. The most efficient way to balance this deficit out is to learn how to use your character's quickest options to beat your opponent's to the punch, and know which of your moves can out-range or out-prioritize another. Things like that help more than people realize.

 

[LanceStern]

Good post Dark.

I'll add some insight as well: more Peaches need to work on developing the quickest and most versatile out of shield game possible. That has been my focus these past 6 months and I'm seeing a lot of improvement over former mental walls because of it. I've advanced from HM to 6th in Ohio so far so I must be doing something right... xD

Know the quickest options you have in any given situation, and learn to acknowledge if there are situations where your options are not quite worth it and you should retreat and live to fight another day. I see a lot of unnecessary and early KOs landed on Peaches because they just don't know when to reset their positioning and instead try to fight through a sticky situation.

I've been utilizing a lot of groundfloat movement (into any option since it cancels back into standing, simple concept but full of win and unique to our character) and float canceled aerials OoS because they're quick. Floatcanceled bairs OoS are revolutionary for us against the MK matchup and have made my defensive play against him that much more effective.

This game focuses heavily on quick reaction time to beat your opponent and some people simply don't have quick reaction time, this is a given. The most efficient way to balance this deficit out is to learn how to use your character's quickest options to beat your opponent's to the punch, and know which of your moves can out-range or out-prioritize another. Things like that help more than people realize.

I agree with all of this and believe we don't focus on this a lot.

I was recently thinking of punishing Falco moves like phantasm/up smash. There are times where it is worth it trying to punish, and there are times to just retreat and reset the situation. Moreso, if we are spacing correctly and covering options - along with quick reaction - we should have a higher chance of punishing EITHER of those options in any situation.