CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
Okay everyone, one of my biggest like 'wow I need to adjust to this from Brawl' things is getting off the ledge, It's a lot harder, or perhaps just different now. In Brawl we were granted with one of the best ledge attacks in the game over 100%, and I know I abused the hell out of it lol
Well, I finally started doing some frame data testing tonight, and want to share the initial findings with all of you so we can put our collective minds networked together to determine the best options we should consider.
Here are some general ledge mechanics:
-If you grab the ledge off stage a second (or more) time in a row without landing or taking damage, you do not receive invincibility frames.
-You can regrab the ledge roughly 55 frames after letting go of it.
-The amount of time you spend on the ground prior to grabbing the ledge does not change the amount of ledge invincibility frames you receive, only air time and current percent. The more air time you have gives you more invincibility, and the more damage you have gives you fewer frames of invincibility.
-Ledge grab invincibility frames do not carry over into other animations.
-Invincibility for all of the below options start on the first frame that the animation starts. There is no start up to this.
And now, your options off the ledge:
Ledge Attack:
16 frames of invincibility
Attack comes out on frame 19
Leaves you completely vulnerable for 2 frames, not the best hitbox. The hitbox is relatively far away from you, and you have no invincibility frames as you are doing it.
Ledge Roll:
28 frames of invincibility
You can act 20 frames after the invincibility ends, making it roughly a 48 frame maneuver
Ledge Jump:
10 frames of invincibility
Can act on frame 16, leaving you vulnerable for 5 frames.
This means say nair comes out in about 18 frames, that means ledge jump nair leaves you vulnerable for about a total of 23 frames.
Ledge Get Up:
34 frames of invincibility
Can act on frame 35. This means you have 0 frames of vulnerability for this, and the only vulnerable time you would have is based on the start up lag of whatever option you pick.
So here is what we have. Ledge Get Up is the safest option, since there is no time between the ending of invincibility and when you can act again, however it is one of the slower options, thus making it easier to read and react. Despite this, it also gives you the best mixups, since you're going to be acting out of invincibility every time. Jumping is the quickest option, allowing you to act the soonest, but also has fairly poor vulnerability, especially considering the position it puts you in, the 5 frames of vulnerability between invincibility and action, and the start up lag for any ROB aerial not named fair (all others could be called unfair ). Rolling leaves you vulnerable for a disgusting 20 frames, but moves you during invincibility, to assist in having opponents whiff moves on you. But seeing that get up invincibility is longer than rolling, it's a pretty poor mixup in practice (if they try to time the punish for get up, they're also covering rolling at the same time).
So everyone, what do you think are the best ways to go about this? I don't have the frame data for the rest of ROB stuff (yet), but imagine things like get up > dtilt, get up > grab, get up > roll, jump > fair, etc etc. What are some of the major options, and advantages/disadvantages of each?
Lets break down this character and figure it out.
Well, I finally started doing some frame data testing tonight, and want to share the initial findings with all of you so we can put our collective minds networked together to determine the best options we should consider.
Here are some general ledge mechanics:
-If you grab the ledge off stage a second (or more) time in a row without landing or taking damage, you do not receive invincibility frames.
-You can regrab the ledge roughly 55 frames after letting go of it.
-The amount of time you spend on the ground prior to grabbing the ledge does not change the amount of ledge invincibility frames you receive, only air time and current percent. The more air time you have gives you more invincibility, and the more damage you have gives you fewer frames of invincibility.
-Ledge grab invincibility frames do not carry over into other animations.
-Invincibility for all of the below options start on the first frame that the animation starts. There is no start up to this.
And now, your options off the ledge:
Ledge Attack:
16 frames of invincibility
Attack comes out on frame 19
Leaves you completely vulnerable for 2 frames, not the best hitbox. The hitbox is relatively far away from you, and you have no invincibility frames as you are doing it.
Ledge Roll:
28 frames of invincibility
You can act 20 frames after the invincibility ends, making it roughly a 48 frame maneuver
Ledge Jump:
10 frames of invincibility
Can act on frame 16, leaving you vulnerable for 5 frames.
This means say nair comes out in about 18 frames, that means ledge jump nair leaves you vulnerable for about a total of 23 frames.
Ledge Get Up:
34 frames of invincibility
Can act on frame 35. This means you have 0 frames of vulnerability for this, and the only vulnerable time you would have is based on the start up lag of whatever option you pick.
So here is what we have. Ledge Get Up is the safest option, since there is no time between the ending of invincibility and when you can act again, however it is one of the slower options, thus making it easier to read and react. Despite this, it also gives you the best mixups, since you're going to be acting out of invincibility every time. Jumping is the quickest option, allowing you to act the soonest, but also has fairly poor vulnerability, especially considering the position it puts you in, the 5 frames of vulnerability between invincibility and action, and the start up lag for any ROB aerial not named fair (all others could be called unfair ). Rolling leaves you vulnerable for a disgusting 20 frames, but moves you during invincibility, to assist in having opponents whiff moves on you. But seeing that get up invincibility is longer than rolling, it's a pretty poor mixup in practice (if they try to time the punish for get up, they're also covering rolling at the same time).
So everyone, what do you think are the best ways to go about this? I don't have the frame data for the rest of ROB stuff (yet), but imagine things like get up > dtilt, get up > grab, get up > roll, jump > fair, etc etc. What are some of the major options, and advantages/disadvantages of each?
Lets break down this character and figure it out.