Sunrise, Sunset - Isaac for Smash Ultimate #GoldenSunday

[SonicLink125]

Just out of curiosity, and if you remember, what characters did you guys vote for in the ballot? For me it was:
-isaac: duh
-geno: duh
-crono: I had recently replayed chrono trigger and felt hopeful
-Roy: ended up being a waste of votes...lol
-dark samus: at the time ridley felt impossible to make it and I really wanted more metroid representation

What about you guys?

I only voted once because I honestly thought it recorded your IP address when you voted so you couldn't vote again and even if you could, it would only save your first one.

I obviously voted for Isaac as he's really the ONLY one I want out of anyone. Once he got in, I would focus on Simon Belmont (but looks like I won't need to fortunately). Shadow, K. Rool and Sora would be next, but I would have been content with just Isaac, honestly (but I would still have been weirded out if K. Rool didn't get in since he is a staple Nintendo villain). And Felix would be a great bonus too!

With that said, of all these other popular character choices like Geno, Skull Kid, Lloyd, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, Banjo&Kazooie, BWD, and any others I've missed, they all feel like they should be playable. I hope we see these guys first before any new IP and/or recency character honestly.

We;'d have had him by now if Dark Dawn was a million seller with at least an 85 on metacritic. His do or die now pends on how well he did in the ballot. That will be what sinks, or sails the ship. Thankfully, all the numbers about the ballot online says the ship sails. But we just have to wait.

This is the part that still baffles me and sometimes ticks me off. This is NOT an attack on the fans or the character at all, rather, at Nintendo to an extent. Xenoblade Cronicles came out in 2010 as well, and yet, they thought Shulk should get in over Isaac who's had his 3rd game out at the same time. I just don't get that. Now most likely Shulk didn't take his spot (and I do think Shulk is cool), but man, it felt like it when I saw his trailer. My heart felt torn that moment. Happy for Shulk's fans, but sad that Nintendo rather prioritize a new IP and neglect a successful one they had. Anyway, mini rant over.

 

[?!?!?!]

I only voted once because I honestly thought it recorded your IP address when you voted so you couldn't vote again and even if you could, it would only save your first one.

I obviously voted for Isaac as he's really the ONLY one I want out of anyone. Once he got in, I would focus on Simon Belmont (but looks like I won't need to fortunately). Shadow, K. Rool and Sora would be next, but I would have been content with just Isaac, honestly (but I would still have been weirded out if K. Rool didn't get in since he is a staple Nintendo villain). And Felix would be a great bonus too!

With that said, of all these other popular character choices like Geno, Skull Kid, Lloyd, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, Banjo&Kazooie, BWD, and any others I've missed, they all feel like they should be playable. I hope we see these guys first before any new IP and/or recency character honestly.

Agreed! and yeah its definitely possible that it was locked at one vote per IP, my first vote was Isaac for sure so I at least hope my last one was too lmao

 

[NessAtc.]

We;'d have had him by now if Dark Dawn was a million seller with at least an 85 on metacritic. His do or die now pends on how well he did in the ballot. That will be what sinks, or sails the ship. Thankfully, all the numbers about the ballot online says the ship sails. But we just have to wait.

didn't get an 85, but it did get a 79, so reviewers liked it well enough

 

[GoodGrief741]

Just out of curiosity, and if you remember, what characters did you guys vote for in the ballot? For me it was:
-isaac: duh
-geno: duh
-crono: I had recently replayed chrono trigger and felt hopeful
-Roy: ended up being a waste of votes...lol
-dark samus: at the time ridley felt impossible to make it and I really wanted more metroid representation

What about you guys?

Voted for Ninten and Snake. At least I get to see one make it in!

 

[Darkfur]

So.... I have a confession.... I actually liked Dark Dawn. D: And for more than me loving were-like creatures. I wish it wasn't so hated.

 

[Nazyrus]

I still gotta keep playing DD, i left it at the start because i really really wanted to replay GS 1 after beating GS The Lost Age lmao

 

[SonicLink125]

So.... I have a confession.... I actually liked Dark Dawn. D: And for more than me loving were-like creatures. I wish it wasn't so hated.

I'm in the same boat! It can't compare to the first two, but it's still a good Golden Sun game. The points of no return suck, but other than that, I had fun with it.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

I voted for Isaac and Snake, at least we know one is back due to popular demand.

And what happened to the event in Canada? Is it done? I can't even remember the date.

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

I only voted once because I honestly thought it recorded your IP address when you voted so you couldn't vote again and even if you could, it would only save your first one.

I obviously voted for Isaac as he's really the ONLY one I want out of anyone. Once he got in, I would focus on Simon Belmont (but looks like I won't need to fortunately). Shadow, K. Rool and Sora would be next, but I would have been content with just Isaac, honestly (but I would still have been weirded out if K. Rool didn't get in since he is a staple Nintendo villain). And Felix would be a great bonus too!

With that said, of all these other popular character choices like Geno, Skull Kid, Lloyd, Shantae, Dixie Kong, Black Shadow, Banjo&Kazooie, BWD, and any others I've missed, they all feel like they should be playable. I hope we see these guys first before any new IP and/or recency character honestly.


This is the part that still baffles me and sometimes ticks me off. This is NOT an attack on the fans or the character at all, rather, at Nintendo to an extent. Xenoblade Cronicles came out in 2010 as well, and yet, they thought Shulk should get in over Isaac who's had his 3rd game out at the same time. I just don't get that. Now most likely Shulk didn't take his spot (and I do think Shulk is cool), but man, it felt like it when I saw his trailer. My heart felt torn that moment. Happy for Shulk's fans, but sad that Nintendo rather prioritize a new IP and neglect a successful one they had. Anyway, mini rant over.

This is a very common misconception about that IP. Xenoblade is not the start of something wholly unique. Xenoblade is the third iteration of Monolith soft's Xeno series. Which started with Xenogears back on PS1. While the game's are unrelated in terms of story or character. Thematically, things align shockingly well. With many games that are legally disconnected, linked by means of borrowed plot elements and tone. Anyways, if you go into the development history of the Xeno series, you'll find it's basically the story of a team of developers trying and failing and trying again time in and again to get a vision off the ground they have faith in. When the company got sold to Nintendo, they were initially terrified that they weren't gonna get to maintain that freedom. But they were allowed to do so regardless. I ensure you, if Xenoblade failed Tetsuya Takahashi, his friends at the company, and his wife would have packed up shop and started Xeno a fourth time under another roof. But it didn't go that way. Nintendo pushing them along to make things better is what made that game what it was. It was the big break they needed, in order to see their creative vision fully realized and recognized.

The first Xenoblade is accredited with closing the dark period of RPG's, which began with the disastrous FF13. To this day it remains one of the most critically acclaimed games on the Wii, and is regarded by fans of the property, myself included, as one of the greatest games of all time, essentially jump starting the then stagnating JRPG genre on consoles all by its lonesome. It also marked the final instance wherein a developer in Nintendo's fleet had initially not planed to launch overseas. Since that title, every noteworthy game, regardless of genre that Nintendo has published has launched in the west. Xenoblade wasn't a commercial juggernaut. But it was without a shadow of a doubt, incredibly influential within Nintendo and to RPG's in the modern era. And it's critical success is most likely what allowed for the production of XCX. Which has began before smash 4.

Shulk's inclusion in smash did not come at the cost of Isaac. The concept of slots in that fashion is fundamentally flawed. Shulk was included to cast a drastically needed light on what held the potential to be one of Nintendo's greatest series. Nintendo knew they were finally sitting on the Final Fantasy competitor they had sought decades ago. It just needed a big shove. Something to get the mainstream to look at it. It hasn't reached that level yet. But give it a few more games. I very firmly believe Xenoblade will be a huge series. Nintendo wouldn't have put the delicate effort forth that they are with the IP without that plan in the back of their minds.

While I do think Isaac deserved to be in the game. And still very, very passionately do. I will never say that he deserved it more then Shulk after Xenoblade's accomplishments, and the Xeno series as a wholes legacy and importance to creative freedom in games. And from Nintendo's perspective, they're perfectly justified in that thought. Golden Sun 1 is a masterpiece. Golden Sun 2 is incredible but misses the mark in a couple ways. Golden Sun 3 is a borderline disaster. Ultimately, Nintendo needed to hedge bet's on a JRPG somewhere. Can both these properties co-exist? Of coarse. But it'll take a journey. A journey we're all on still.

 

[Nazyrus]

https://smashboards.com/threads/sun-moon-and-stars-theory.462525/ Hey everyone I thought I should leave this here, you might be interested in checking it out as it's a theory in favor for Isaac.

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

Because it's true, if Golden Sun wasn't dormant and was continually well-received, we'd probably have him by now.

Pac-man? aha I might be missing something but some characters were added for their iconic status/demand and not how their games were selling at the time they were included right?

Is there something I dont know about like were Pac-Man and Duck Hunt selling amazing games recently or during smash4s development Im just not aware of?
Mega Man too, was he selling well during the time of his inclusion? (i wouldnt be surprised to hear a yes to that for Mega man)

I know Isaac is no where near as iconic a gaming icon as Pac-man and Duck Hunt but hasnt a character from a dormant series been added before?


EDITED:

Guys don't take pseudo leakers/experts words for gospel either. It's easy to predict obvious characters like Ken, Isabelle, etc. Even K.Rool was kinda obvious after Ridley.
Remember that Brawl had Pit, while Kid Icarus had been dormant for 17 years, giving a new game 6 years later.
And Mr Game and Watch ? Last one was also 17 years before brawl.
Series being dormant is not a disqualifier, and since ballot has a huge impact this time, and we all know Isaac did well and that Golden Sun was a big deal back in the GBA era, his chances are pretty decent. So chill and relax, he is in.

Aha should have read this before posting....welp

 

[?!?!?!]

https://smashboards.com/threads/sun-moon-and-stars-theory.462525/ Hey everyone I thought I should leave this here, you might be interested in checking it out as it's a theory in favor for Isaac.

This would be the most amazing thing to happen for whats becoming more likely to be the last direct before the game's release

 

[TappyBat]

Pac-man? aha I might be missing something but some characters were added for their iconic status/demand and not how their games were selling at the time they were included right?

Is there something I dont know about like were Pac-Man and Duck Hunt selling amazing games recently or during smash4s development Im just not aware of?
Mega Man too, was he selling well during the time of his inclusion? (i wouldnt be surprised to hear a yes to that for Mega man)

I know Isaac is no where near as iconic a gaming icon as Pac-man and Duck Hunt but hasnt a character from a dormant series been added before?

pac-man is namco's mascot. they were help make the game

 

[Confirmation]

Anything come from that bar?

 

[ZelDan]

As odd as it sounds...I don't actually remember if I voted for the Smash Ballot, or who I voted for if I did.

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

pac-man is namco's mascot. they were help make the game

Oh well that makes some sense, but the point still stands for Duck Hunt, Mr.G&W and Pit

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

Pac-man? aha I might be missing something but some characters were added for their iconic status/demand and not how their games were selling at the time they were included right?

Is there something I dont know about like were Pac-Man and Duck Hunt selling amazing games recently or during smash4s development Im just not aware of?
Mega Man too, was he selling well during the time of his inclusion? (i wouldnt be surprised to hear a yes to that for Mega man)

I know Isaac is no where near as iconic a gaming icon as Pac-man and Duck Hunt but hasnt a character from a dormant series been added before?

Isaac and Pac-Man shouldn't be compared seeing how Pac-Man was the iconic mascot of the development studio for Smash 4 and that Sakurai's is more forgiving to less iconic characters from the Nintendo side.
I think the most comparable character to Isaac is Pit. Seeing how they both had a game that didn't sell as well for their last game being Kid Icarus of Myths and Monsters on the Gameboy and Golden Sun Dark Dawn on the DS. Also to note is the Golden Sun games had more of an impact to it's debut console than the Kid Icarus series did. Sakurai mentioned Pit being a popular character in America and Japan which can be comparable to Isaac's popularity in Europe and America.

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

Just out of curiosity, and if you remember, what characters did you guys vote for in the ballot? For me it was:
-isaac: duh
-geno: duh
-crono: I had recently replayed chrono trigger and felt hopeful
-Roy: ended up being a waste of votes...lol
-dark samus: at the time ridley felt impossible to make it and I really wanted more metroid representation

What about you guys?

Well I figured the way they would handle it was one vote per device. Since, if they didn’t have a way to keep spam to a minimum, they’d have a **** load of illegitimate votes. So chances are they either only took the first vote in a specific device or he last vote. Probably the first one.

That being said I still voted several times across several different devices. All of them Isaac.

 

[Confirmation]

You know, it just occurred to me: assist trophies are rightfully considered the worst.

Back in Brawl, they were characters getting representation that would otherwise wouldn't have gotten any. But now that DLC exists, being an assist means Sakurai has no intention of using you. It's a grim thought.

 

[PokiehlthePoet]

Isaac and Pac-Man shouldn't be compared seeing how Pac-Man was the iconic mascot of the development studio for Smash 4 and that Sakurai's is more forgiving to less iconic characters from the Nintendo side.
I think the most comparable character to Isaac is Pit. Seeing how they both had a game that didn't sell as well for their last game being Kid Icarus of Myths and Monsters on the Gameboy and Golden Sun Dark Dawn on the DS. Also to note is the Golden Sun games had more of an impact to it's debut console than the Kid Icarus series did. Sakurai mentioned Pit being a popular character in America and Japan which can be comparable to Isaac's popularity in Europe and America.

I know Isaac is no where near as iconic a gaming icon as Pac-man and Duck Hunt but hasnt a character from a dormant series been added before?

Yeah I agree Pit is probably the best comparison, for all kinds of reasons

 

[TappyBat]

You know, it just occurred to me: assist trophies are rightfully considered the worst.

Back in Brawl, they were characters getting representation that would otherwise wouldn't have gotten any. But now that DLC exists, being an assist means Sakurai has no intention of using you. It's a grim thought.

indeed

 

[Luigifan18]

You know, it just occurred to me: assist trophies are rightfully considered the worst.

Back in Brawl, they were characters getting representation that would otherwise wouldn't have gotten any. But now that DLC exists, being an assist means Sakurai has no intention of using you. It's a grim thought.

*grumble grumble grumble*

 

[GoodGrief741]

You know, it just occurred to me: assist trophies are rightfully considered the worst.

Back in Brawl, they were characters getting representation that would otherwise wouldn't have gotten any. But now that DLC exists, being an assist means Sakurai has no intention of using you. It's a grim thought.

I don’t know, I don’t think Sakurai considers DLC when making the game. If you look at what we know, DLC characters have only been veterans and characters from third party companies. You can’t very well have a veteran demoted to any other role as people will complain (not to mention that Lucas and Roy don’t really work as Assist Trophies), and we’ve only had two Assist Trophies from unrepresented third party franchises (Bomberman and Shovel Knight) and those two happened in Ultimate.

Plus, we don’t know Sakurai’s stance on upgrading ATs to playable through DLC.

 

[TappyBat]

I don’t know, I don’t think Sakurai considers DLC when making the game. If you look at what we know, DLC characters have only been veterans and characters from third party companies. You can’t very well have a veteran demoted to any other role as people will complain (not to mention that Lucas and Roy don’t really work as Assist Trophies), and we’ve only had two Assist Trophies from unrepresented third party franchises (Bomberman and Shovel Knight) and those two happened in Ultimate.

Plus, we don’t know Sakurai’s stance on upgrading ATs to playable through DLC.

it's only been vets cause they were missing and it was the first time dlc for smash was a thing. now everyone is back they can use other people now

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

it's only been vets cause they were missing and it was the first time dlc for smash was a thing. now everyone is back they can use other people now

It's entirely possible that they'll continue the ballot inspired fan service for DLC. We could get some new faces mixed in there like Rex and Springman but Sakurai will most likely consider carrying over this fanservice pattern seeing how well it's been received. We just need to keep pushing for Isaac until he makes it in the roster

 

[Vasculio]

I'm still holding out for Black Shadow as a possible echo *fingers crossed*

If not... my only hope from here would be for Isaac, Shadow and Geno make the roster

 

[NessAtc.]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

just gonna post this here as a reminder not to give up hope my guys

 

[Jupiter Ivan]

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

 

[Gioka]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

just gonna post this here as a reminder not to give up hope my guys

This is always appreciated, thank you!

Sorry I have been MIA I am going as an artist to a convention on November and it has been consuming all of my time. That being said, anyone has any juicy news? Date? Theories?
I read that the person who leaked Cloud in Sm4sh said that one of the leaks going around is legit, I don't know if it is really the person or if what he is saying is true but I hope it means Isaac.

 

[TappyBat]

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

roll with the punches my dude

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'm still holding out for Black Shadow as a possible echo *fingers crossed*

If not... my only hope from her would be for Shadow and Geno make the roster

And what does this have to do with Isaac? Take it to Black Shadow's thread.

 

[Gioka]

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

When has Sakurai failed us in that sense? The depiction is gorgeous, but I also have faith on the team, specially this time around they are really stepping the game up in terms of the models, look at Zelda for example <3 I have no doubt that Sakurai would want to give his best rendition of a character as beloved as Isaac specially if he makes it in because of the popular demand~!

 

[Calane]

So.... I have a confession.... I actually liked Dark Dawn. D: And for more than me loving were-like creatures. I wish it wasn't so hated.

Same. I'm actually one of the weirdos that hold it as their favorite in the series.

In fact, I'm probably the only one with that opinion.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

Smash renders always look better than anything fans can come up with, no worries there. Fans can come up with things that look close, though.

 

[SonicLink125]

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

Honestly for me, I woundn't care, I got Isaac in Smash! lol

Besides, I would love to see a comparison of Smash Isaac and Nazyrus render of Isaac. See how close they were.

Also, thank you, NessAtc. I sometimes forget about that Exit Poll. It just amazes me that Isaac came in Second. I know it's not the true source of the ballot, but it's the most accurate thing we got so far.

Edit:words

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pw5m-b4JHJ0_cGRKU15KYlTe1E/edit#gid=729442469

just gonna post this here as a reminder not to give up hope my guys

I don't remember where I heard it. But apparently there were 1.8 million votes cast in the ballot. If you run Isaac's 4.63% from this sample against 1.8 million you get about 85 thousand votes globally. For the sake of comparison K rool walks away with 130,000. Mind you that's not an exact science. This chart only captured 1/40th of the total votes assuming 1.8 million is accurate. But given how sample sizes tend to be decently reflective of actual results, i'd say it's the closest we'd ever come to actually knowing ballot results. 85K is more then enough to be playable when this same formula only turns out 40K globally for Bayonetta.

 

[NessAtc.]

I don't remember where I heard it. But apparently there were 1.8 million votes cast in the ballot. If you run Isaac's 4.63% from this sample against 1.8 million you get about 85 thousand votes globally. For the sake of comparison K rool walks away with 130,000. Mind you that's not an exact science. This chart only captured 1/40th of the total votes assuming 1.8 million is accurate. But given how sample sizes tend to be decently reflective of actual results, i'd say it's the closest we'd ever come to actually knowing ballot results. 85K is more then enough to be playable when this same formula only turns out 40K globally for Bayonetta.

Sakurai actually said himself that a total of 1.8 million votes were cast.
Source: https://nintendoeverything.com/super-smash-bros-fighter-ballot-garnered-1-8-million-votes-worldwide/

 

[N3ON]

Pac-man? aha I might be missing something but some characters were added for their iconic status/demand and not how their games were selling at the time they were included right?

Is there something I dont know about like were Pac-Man and Duck Hunt selling amazing games recently or during smash4s development Im just not aware of?
Mega Man too, was he selling well during the time of his inclusion? (i wouldnt be surprised to hear a yes to that for Mega man)

I know Isaac is no where near as iconic a gaming icon as Pac-man and Duck Hunt but hasnt a character from a dormant series been added before?

Pac-Man is literally the most recognizable video game character in the world and has releases of some sort nearly annually.

But even if he wasn't, resorting to the uncommon exception or extenuating circumstance validates the exact point you're arguing against, that it would be unlikely.

I’ve had a terrible thought....

If Isaac is in the game... Now that we have a beautiful HD depiction thanks to Nazyrus , what if his official model looks worse?!

That would certainly be making lemons out of lemonade.

 

[Darkfur]

Pac-Man is literally the most recognizable video game character in the world and has releases of some sort nearly annually.

But even if he wasn't, resorting to the uncommon exception or extenuating circumstance validates the exact point you're arguing against, that it would be unlikely.


That would certainly be making lemons out of lemonade.

Mmm... Reverse Lemons

 

[TheSpaceKing12]

Sakurai actually said himself that a total of 1.8 million votes were cast.
Source: https://nintendoeverything.com/super-smash-bros-fighter-ballot-garnered-1-8-million-votes-worldwide/

Then 85 thousand Isaac votes globally sounds like an extremely close estimate if this sample is worth going by. We can tell it's not an exact science based on Krystal and Shovel Knight polling ahead of Ridley and still being an Assist. The question there would be, how did the ballot impact those characters in reality? We can run numbers all we want but if 2.6% global can't make shovel knight playable, then it beg's the thought, does the ballot overrule sakurai's typical rules for newcomer selection. I'd say yes honestly. Both of these de-confirmations were edge cases.

Shovel Knight is a third party character, who's very small, and has only one game to his name. If there was a shovel knight 2 and probably a 3 as well, then i'd bet money he would be playable. But that's not the case, he hasn't had a large enough impact on gaming as a whole to justify the third party inclusion.

Likewise Krystal was probably heavily considered at one point, but had to be denied on the grounds of Wolf's far higher numbers and overall importance to the starfox series and nintendo at large. If Wolf hadn't polled as strong as he did. Krystal would be playable.

The thankful thing to consider here is that Isaac's only true competition for a slot from a fellow first party is Bandanna Waddle Dee. And after looking over these number's, running the maths and the like, i'd say that both of them could easily make it. So yeah. Sakurai's typical rules for character inclusion had to have more or less been picked apart piece by piece because of the ballot.