Geno's Bizarre Adventure part 2: Stardust Crusaders (Geno Support Thread #2)

[Geno Boost]

I forgot to mention something important if Geno is the last fighter then it actually make sense to bring back his DLC mii costume back long before he joins the battle and it actually does make sense from a business perspective and marketing point as people will more likely buy the Geno Mii costume earlier than after the actual Geno comes.
If Geno fighter pack was with the Geno mii costume less people will buy the Geno mii costume.

Also remember Sakurai celebrate anniversary of Tekken with only having the Heihachi mii costume

1995年のきょう『鉄拳』(Tekken)PS版が発売!!
オリジナルは1994年末のアーケード版｡リリースからわずか4ヶ月という移植の早さでした｡
息子をガケから落としちゃいけません｡
もちろん、親も落としちゃいけません｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/HAOOK3MdwS

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 31, 2021

and celebrated also SMRPG anniversary with Geno mii costume only

1996年のきょう『スーパーマリオRPG』(Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)発売!!
森のキノコに用心するのです。
マリオシリーズに本格的なお話がついたのは、これが初かも。#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/ec4eCtXxKx

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 9, 2021

So don’t lose hope there is still a room left for Geno as much as Xenonblade 2 and Tekken had even after the mii costume

 

[Deleted member]

I forgot to mention something important if Geno is the last fighter then it actually make sense to bring back his DLC mii costume back long before he joins the battle and it actually does make sense from a business perspective and marketing point as people will more likely buy the Geno Mii costume earlier than after the actual Geno comes.
If Geno fighter pack was with the Geno mii costume less people will buy the Geno mii costume.

Also remember Sakurai celebrate anniversary of Tekken with only having the Heihachi mii costume

1995年のきょう『鉄拳』(Tekken)PS版が発売!!
オリジナルは1994年末のアーケード版｡リリースからわずか4ヶ月という移植の早さでした｡
息子をガケから落としちゃいけません｡
もちろん、親も落としちゃいけません｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/HAOOK3MdwS

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 31, 2021

and celebrated also SMRPG anniversary with Geno mii costume only

1996年のきょう『スーパーマリオRPG』(Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)発売!!
森のキノコに用心するのです。
マリオシリーズに本格的なお話がついたのは、これが初かも。#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/ec4eCtXxKx

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 9, 2021

So don’t lose hope there is still a room left for Geno as much as Xenonblade 2 and Tekken had even after the mii costume

hey siri how do I like a post twice

He was even throwing Ryu off a cliff. When [0% chance of success] Geno busts down the door into Ultimate I'm going to commit to time traveling and hacking the webcams of everyone who never believed, just to see the look on their face.

 

[Audioplasma]

Love to see everyone still rooting for geno, him being the last character would honestly be the best way to end the game with a “impossible” character getting in against all odds

 

[Paraster]

Something I wanna say: you can believe Geno still has a chance if you want, but you shouldn't base that just on Kazuya and the Heihachi costume. It would only be equivalent to Geno if Heihachi himself was the Tekken rep even after his costume was added.

A more accurate analogue to Kazuya would be if Mallow was CP11 (or if we got a Mallow costume instead of the Geno one and Geno was CP11).

 

[Firox]

He was even throwing Ryu off a cliff. When [0% chance of success] Geno busts down the door into Ultimate I'm going to commit to time traveling and hacking the webcams of everyone who never believed, just to see the look on their face.

That moment, I assure you, will be a thing of legend. Like, I will seriously regale my grandchildren of its magnificence.

 

[QQS]

Geno as the Final Star, as the Last Wish, as the Special Request, as the Big Wish, is indeed a thing that QQS never stops believing.

Credit to ARTIST please.

GENO RETURNS HOME!

 

[Geno Boost]

Something I wanna say: you can believe Geno still has a chance if you want, but you shouldn't base that just on Kazuya and the Heihachi costume. It would only be equivalent to Geno if Heihachi himself was the Tekken rep even after his costume was added.

A more accurate analogue to Kazuya would be if Mallow was CP11 (or if we got a Mallow costume instead of the Geno one and Geno was CP11).

Here is your answer regarding that:
Nintendo have the result regarding that of who is the better choice as they have asked back in 2018.

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

So between Heihachi or Kazuya it’s not up to the tekken fans to decide however the SMRPG fans were given the chance to decide between Geno or Mallow.

 

[Paraster]

Here is your answer regarding that:
Nintendo have the result regarding that of who is the better choice as they have asked back in 2018.

Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars launched for the Super NES on this day in 1996. Are you Team Mallow or Team Geno? pic.twitter.com/auvmZWJsfM

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 13, 2018

So between Heihachi or Kazuya it’s not up to the tekken fans to decide however the SMRPG fans were given the chance to decide between Geno or Mallow.

That's not my point; I'm not talking about popularity or iconic status.

Franchise 1 gets character A as a Mii costume. Later, character B becomes a fighter.
Franchise 2 gets character C as a Mii costume, but character C later becomes a fighter anyway.

These two scenarios are different; the first scenario does not make the second more likely.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

I remember recently thinking to myself how strange it was that Geno’s Mii costume returning got little to no mention from Sakurai so I’m glad Geno Boost and @Serenade01 brought it up. Sure, we got to see it in two of Sakurai’s pics of the day, but there wasn’t even a, “sorry guys we couldn’t make him work again, here’s the best we could do” or something similar to that.
I mean, obviously not every character who gets Mii costume’d deserves a whole 30 minute eulogy from Sakurai, but the silence regarding the situation made me at least raise an eyebrow. The dude’s a top 10 requested character and yet Sakurai’s been suspiciously tight lipped on discussing his representation in Smash Ultimate, unlike with characters like the aforementioned Rex and Sans who were actually touched upon in their respective costume showcases.

But whatever, you could argue that since it’s a returning Smash 4 costume he probably doesn’t feel like repeating himself or something, It’s all speculation yadda yadda. But I like where your guys’ heads are at, and I feel like you’re really onto something.

Something I wanna say: you can believe Geno still has a chance if you want, but you shouldn't base that just on Kazuya and the Heihachi costume. It would only be equivalent to Geno if Heihachi himself was the Tekken rep even after his costume was added.

A more accurate analogue to Kazuya would be if Mallow was CP11 (or if we got a Mallow costume instead of the Geno one and Geno was CP11).

Oh yeah for sure, it’d be a fool’s errand to just bank his chances on one tiny piece of speculatory evidence, but I think a lot of us here are coupling that talking point alongside some other ideas as well. If the only thing we had to go off of was Kazuya getting in after Heihachi’s Mii costume then I’d probably be in the Mallow thread pondering the possibility of everyone’s favorite cloud boy man getting in before Geno haha.

 

[WeirdAlFan101]

So while I have personally come to terms with how the Mii Costume is more or less the end of the Ultimate road for Geno, I still thought I'd make this considering all the more recent speculative talk that has been spoken in his favor here, along with everything else he had going for him initially (unless I missed some things).

Again, this is all just hypothetical in my eyes, and I personally don't really think it'll change anything, but it still seemed interesting to share. Credit to MutationFoxy for the absolutely bangin' render used here.

 

[Geno Boost]

Yesterday this was uploaded
a new Geno MUGEN mod has been released!

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

Something to note is, if they wanted Heihachi, they could have put him in. They literally added a FULLY RENDERED model and an understanding of how to include him in the game.

For me, they chose Kazuya for other reasons. Maybe Bandai Namco had a reason to want Kazuya they like MinMin was picked over Springman.

Maybe they could get a voice they wanted so they went with Kazuya instead. They could be paying respects to the original voice actor by not choosing Heihachi.

I imagine we will learn “why Kazuya” in the Sakurai Presents. However, this tell us one thing. They aren’t afraid of rendering mii costume characters.

As for the Tekken rep, they should have chosen Kuma with Panda as alt skins.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

I'm going to have to agree with TooManyToastahs here and say the lack of mention probably stems from it being a returning costume and not some secret plan. Has he made extra mention of any returning costumes? If so then maybe I can see this being a point of speculation but otherwise I think it means nothing. It's possible he didn't want to open a can of worms by saying the wrong thing. Sakurai has to tread very carefully with what he says and he's mentioned this before. He probably just thought saying nothing would be simpler. It's also possible there was no way to talk about it without basically throwing Nintendo under the bus and he didn't want to do that. I think there's a lot of reasons (other than a secret plan) that the costume came with no extra fluff.

That being said, nothing is stopping Geno from being last. There are no rules other than no non video game characters. It just boils down to what Nintendo's thought process was and there's not a lot to go off of there that would support Geno, but it could certainly still happen.

 

[ivanlerma]

Yesterday this was uploaded
a new Geno MUGEN mod has been released!

MUGEN......What a time it was for me....

 

[Deleted member]

It is post E3 of 2021, in what is hopefully the waning of a global pandemic and a full six months after the reveal of Geno's costume... And there are still people who want to come into the Geno containment thread and try to temper the expectations a fanbase has over a character who, by everyone's admission, does not stand a chance.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or call the psych ward.

It's also possible there was no way to talk about it without basically throwing Nintendo under the bus and he didn't want to do that.

If you ask me, he threw Nintendo under the bus in the Steve presentation. I tend to not pay very much attention to the Mii costume segments, and Sakurai very rarely speaks about them in general, new or otherwise. Characters make it in as Mii costumes typically because they're often requested but hard to make a reality, or too similar to other characters, so to be truthful, the fact that Sakurai talked about Geno's costume in 4 is weird in itself. I believe he also spoke about Heihachi's costume back then, as well - if I remember correctly, this is where we get the idea that a Tekken fighter proved too difficult to implement at the time.

So we have two costumes that Sakurai has spoken about in the Smash 4 era, one of which was revealed prior to a release of a character from its home game (his son, no less) in Ultimate. Sakurai didn't feel the need to pat K. Rool or Isabelle fans on the back and tell them he did his best when they got costumed in 4... but for some reason he did with Geno (as previously mentioned, a top 10 fan favorite character) and Heihachi (whose fan demand I can't really even speak for), and then Rex and meme skeleton. Not Travis, a decently popular request, not Arthur, not Bomberman, not Zero...

Fan rules are getting tiresome.

A spirit can't become playable
Sephiroth's sword is too long
A mii costume reveal means the whole game is out of the running

The last legs these people have to stand on are assist trophies and the actual character of a mii costume getting in. I wonder who will survive...

 

[Aerospherology]

I forgot to mention something important if Geno is the last fighter then it actually make sense to bring back his DLC mii costume back long before he joins the battle and it actually does make sense from a business perspective and marketing point as people will more likely buy the Geno Mii costume earlier than after the actual Geno comes.
If Geno fighter pack was with the Geno mii costume less people will buy the Geno mii costume.

Also remember Sakurai celebrate anniversary of Tekken with only having the Heihachi mii costume

1995年のきょう『鉄拳』(Tekken)PS版が発売!!
オリジナルは1994年末のアーケード版｡リリースからわずか4ヶ月という移植の早さでした｡
息子をガケから落としちゃいけません｡
もちろん、親も落としちゃいけません｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/HAOOK3MdwS

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 31, 2021

and celebrated also SMRPG anniversary with Geno mii costume only

1996年のきょう『スーパーマリオRPG』(Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars)発売!!
森のキノコに用心するのです。
マリオシリーズに本格的なお話がついたのは、これが初かも。#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/ec4eCtXxKx

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) March 9, 2021

So don’t lose hope there is still a room left for Geno as much as Xenonblade 2 and Tekken had even after the mii costume

CP11 is pink or purple...
Time for Mallow

 

[TooManyToastahs]

Something to note is, if they wanted Heihachi, they could have put him in. They literally added a FULLY RENDERED model and an understanding of how to include him in the game.

For me, they chose Kazuya for other reasons. Maybe Bandai Namco had a reason to want Kazuya they like MinMin was picked over Springman.

Maybe they could get a voice they wanted so they went with Kazuya instead. They could be paying respects to the original voice actor by not choosing Heihachi.

I imagine we will learn “why Kazuya” in the Sakurai Presents. However, this tell us one thing. They aren’t afraid of rendering mii costume characters.

As for the Tekken rep, they should have chosen Kuma with Panda as alt skins.

I wholeheartedly agree with the Kuma and Panda idea. I reject our human overlords and embrace the fighting game bear revolution.

But anyways yeah that’s another important thing to note, Rex and Heihachi were both fully modeled and included alongside their related DLC fighters.
Rex was included as part Pyra and Mythra’s taunts, their opening animation, their winning animations, and their final smash (man Rex really made sure you didn’t forget him). Heihachi can be seen fully modeled and animated in the background of the Mishima Dojo, and perhaps he could even do more depending on what we see in the Sakurai Presents.

But still like you said, we now know the Smash team is not afraid of fully rendering and animating existing Mii costume characters. We technically already knew this with Pythra, but I think the Heihachi and Kazuya debacle really set it in stone for us.

This could mean a bunch of different things when looked at in a vacuum unfortunately.

Spoiler: Whoops I talked a lot

• It could simply mean nothing, and this was only something that happened with two characters.
• It could also mean Geno is coming but not as a playable character, but rather as a fully modeled cameo alongside someone like Mallow (No complaints here personally but I understand why this would be disappointing).
• Or maybe it could even mean that a post-launch Mii costume character is becoming playable… But it’s not Geno.
• And of course, best case scenario Geno breaks free from his gross Smash 4 costume and becomes a playable character.

So in conclusion… There is no conclusion, you have been scammed and the ride never ends!

He probably just thought saying nothing would be simpler. It's also possible there was no way to talk about it without basically throwing Nintendo under the bus and he didn't want to do that. I think there's a lot of reasons (other than a secret plan) that the costume came with no extra fluff.

Yeah this is kinda what I’m thinking too. Believe me, I want to be optimistic, but I can see future me sitting at my desk with a glazed look in his eyes thinking, “His silence regarding the Mii costume meant nothing, he just wanted to avoid stepping on anyone’s toes…”
I think the secret plan idea is pretty fun though and it kinda goes along with the other points we’ve speculated on, but like everything we’ve talked about it can easily be scrutinized. Plus it feels like something you’d look back on in retrospect and think, “Oh so THAT’S why he was so quiet regarding Geno this time around”.

Yesterday this was uploaded
a new Geno MUGEN mod has been released!

Oh wow this mod looks awesome! First there was the Rivals of Aether mod, now we have this MUGEN mod… It won’t be long until Geno is playable in every crossover fighting game besides Smash. His cameo empire is indomitable!

So while I have personally come to terms with how the Mii Costume is more or less the end of the Ultimate road for Geno, I still thought I'd make this considering all the more recent speculative talk that has been spoken in his favor here, along with everything else he had going for him initially (unless I missed some things).

Again, this is all just hypothetical in my eyes, and I personally don't really think it'll change anything, but it still seemed interesting to share. Credit to MutationFoxy for the absolutely bangin' render used here.

Awesome work man! This image is gonna be really helpful for keeping my dumb caveman brain organized regarding all the recent speculation stuff lol

 

[Geno Boost]

CP11 is pink or purple.,,
Time for Mallow

Cacomallow strikes back

 

[Penguinbowler]

While i think Geno's chances have been thouroughly dashed by this point, I'm fine with healthy speculation and wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I highly doubt there will be a challengers pass three, so the next character being the last one is making it somewhat tense. I wonder when they'll actually reveal the final character.

This final speculation period is probably gonna be interesting, though i can't help but feel they may have blown their capstone a bit to early with Sephiroth, who'd be pretty difficult to top, wouldn't be the first time (Both the main game and the first fighters pass had underwhelming final fighters compared to the earlier ones). It's actually kinda interesting they blow through hype picks early (Fighters pass 1 would be difficult since regionwise Terry, Hero, or banjo could be the biggest Hype pick, while in the base game i feel Belmont would have been a better finale then Incineroar, since Ridley was the best way to cap off the proper reveal).

 

[Shroob]

While i think Geno's chances have been thouroughly dashed by this point, I'm fine with healthy speculation and wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I highly doubt there will be a challengers pass three, so the next character being the last one is making it somewhat tense. I wonder when they'll actually reveal the final character.

This final speculation period is probably gonna be interesting, though i can't help but feel they may have blown their capstone a bit to early with Sephiroth, who'd be pretty difficult to top, wouldn't be the first time (Both the main game and the first fighters pass had underwhelming final fighters compared to the earlier ones). It's actually kinda interesting they blow through hype picks early (Fighters pass 1 would be difficult since regionwise Terry, Hero, or banjo could be the biggest Hype pick, while in the base game i feel Belmont would have been a better finale then Incineroar, since Ridley was the best way to cap off the proper reveal).

It's really not that interesting tbh.

Show the best stuff first to get people to buy into it early. Like all games, the majority of the sales will come within the first few months of its life, and while games will sell throughout its life, they never really replicate that day 1 boon. Like, to the absolute average Smash fan, if E3 2018 didn't win you over and make you go out and pre-order then and there, August 2018's Direct probably did.

Same can be said of DLC, really. Show the BIG stuff first to get people to buy the Fighter Pass early. Granted, we have no idea how Ultimate will end, so it's still yet to be seen if it'll truly end on a "low" note or not.

 

[Deleted member]

Same can be said of DLC, really. Show the BIG stuff first to get people to buy the Fighter Pass early. Granted, we have no idea how Ultimate will end, so it's still yet to be seen if it'll truly end on a "low" note or not.

Is that why FP2 started with Min Min and Steve? Is that really the "BIG" stuff? The average Smash player didn't start caring until Sephiroth, and I'd say that as far as a second year's worth of DLC is concerned, that's when the people who own the game (the target audience of DLC) actually started paying attention.

I think for once in their career, Nintendo isn't going to end this on a mundane note.

 

[Shroob]

Is that why FP2 started with Min Min and Steve? Is that really the "BIG" stuff? The average Smash player didn't start caring until Sephiroth, and I'd say that as far as a second year's worth of DLC is concerned, that's when the people who own the game (the target audience of DLC) actually started paying attention.

I think for once in their career, Nintendo isn't going to end this on a mundane note.

Is Steve big?

Is Steve, the character from the biggest game in the world big, and had literal wars with Banjo fans for months over which would get in if only 1 could in FP1?


C'mon now.

 

[ZelDan]

Is that why FP2 started with Min Min and Steve? Is that really the "BIG" stuff? The average Smash player didn't start caring until Sephiroth, and I'd say that as far as a second year's worth of DLC is concerned, that's when the people who own the game (the target audience of DLC) actually started paying attention.

I think for once in their career, Nintendo isn't going to end this on a mundane note.

Steve would absolutely be "big." While he might have been mixed amongst hardcore smash fans, he absolutely would be popular amongst a crapload of people outside said smash fans. (and by all accounts a good amount of hardcore smash fans still rooted for him too).

I'm saying this as someone that didn't want Steve in Smash too.

 

[Deleted member]

Is Steve big?

Is Steve, the character from the biggest game in the world big, and had literal wars with Banjo fans for months over which would get in if only 1 could in FP1?


C'mon now.

"let's ignore that no one cared about ARMS being included in Smash because this guy accurately said that Steve is hit or miss"

Steve is probably the most divisive character in Smash's history and if you watch any tournament matches involving him, the comments and the commentators themselves are often extremely critical of his inclusion and his jank over substance playstyle. The people that the fighter passes are catered to are competitive players who have an interest in every character in the pack, not the 6 dollar download that 12 year olds are going to beg for because the funny block man can fight Mario.

 

[Shroob]

"let's ignore that no one cared about ARMS being included in Smash because this guy accurately said that Steve is hit or miss"

Steve is probably the most divisive character in Smash's history and if you watch any tournament matches involving him, the comments and the commentators themselves are often extremely critical of his inclusion and his jank over substance playstyle. The people that the fighter passes are catered to are competitive players who have an interest in every character in the pack, not the 6 dollar download that 12 year olds are going to beg for because the funny block man can fight Mario.

Tournament announcers mean literal nothing in the long run.


Sakurai himself said how huge Minecraft is, and looking at its sales, it is. You can not like Steve all you want, but to say that he's "Not big" is laughable. He's by far the biggest character in FP2, and perhaps the DLC as a whole.

 

[Deleted member]

Tournament announcers mean literal nothing in the long run.


Sakurai himself said how huge Minecraft is, and looking at its sales, it is. You can not like Steve all you want, but to say that he's "Not big" is laughable. He's by far the biggest character in FP2, and perhaps the DLC as a whole.

If you're going to ignore the point of my statement to harp on Steve then there's no reason to continue talking.

 

[Shroob]

If you're going to ignore the point of my statement to harp on Steve then there's no reason to continue talking.

What does it matter if he's divisive in the competitive crowd?


Please cite your source where Sakurai said:

The people that the fighter passes are catered to are competitive players who have an interest in every character in the pack

Because as far as I'm aware, he has never said that the DLC is catered only to the competitive scene.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

I really hate to be that guy but considering the nature of the platform we’re on and past events, you guys might wanna take the Steve discussion to DMs or something. I’m not saying this to be the fun police or shut down an interesting debate, just wanna avoid any unnecessary conflict from the fellas upstairs if you catch my drift.

The discussion seemed to be over anyways, so hooray me for making an unnecessary post

 

[Shroob]

I really hate to be that guy but considering the nature of the platform we’re on and past events, you guys might wanna take the Steve discussion to DMs or something. I’m not saying this to be the fun police or shut down an interesting debate, just wanna avoid any unnecessary conflict from the fellas upstairs if you catch my drift.

The discussion seemed to be over anyways, so hooray me for making an unnecessary post

Regardless, I feel like people are giving up too early and jumping ship to the "Smash's last character is gonna suck!"-train.


It could, but I think it's okay to have some optimism about the final character lol. Hey, for all we know, maybe it'll be a pleasant surprise after all.

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

Cacomallow strikes back

Last color is Rainbow! Represent the 7 stars and boom, Geno!

 

[Deleted member]

What does it matter if he's divisive in the competitive crowd?


Please cite your source where Sakurai said:




Because as far as I'm aware, he has never said that the DLC is catered only to the competitive scene.

Sakurai does not have to say that the DLC is catered to the competitive scene; that's just business sense. The bulk of the profit Nintendo is going to see on Smash Bros is going to be from initial sales. You already said that. Every Tom, Duck and Harry is going to buy the game because it's the new hotness (which they did, Ultimate was the best selling game on Amazon within like... half an hour and remained that way for about a week) and many of those players are going to put it down shortly after they finish the "story mode" or do a handful of classic runs and spirit challenges. Smash has not had a whole ton of unique content in its entire history, and as such, the casual player is just going to move on to greener pastures as soon as some new game launches that their favorite content creator talks up.

The point to DLC in any normal game is to incentivize coming back to the game for a smaller cost than purchasing a sequel, but in a fighting game, that DLC is mostly going to fall flat because by the time it's ready to go, the game isn't en vogue anymore. Smash likely managed to avoid this for Joker because he was a huge name from a game that became a huge hit, and he (along with Piranha Plant) managed to release before anything else huge really hit the Switch. At this juncture, they have several goals:

1. Sell a fighter pass with Joker as the headliner to a casual audience who is still invested enough in the game to play it off and on at new releases for a year.
2. Sell a set of 5 fighters at a slight discount to competitive players who would have ended up buying all of them regardless to learn the matchups and have a competition ready setup to bring to their locals
3. Sell a popular character (Joker) individually to people whose interest in Smash Ultimate is likely to be waning.

In this sense, Fighter Pass 1 was likely much more successful as a blind buy than Fighter Pass 2 was because of the three possibilities, the first two were the most likely.

What's important to consider here, though, is that when Fighter Pass 2 was announced, Smash Ultimate was almost a year old. The Switch had something of a boom year in 2019 with a new, extremely hyped up game dropping almost every month. Daemon X Machina, Dragon Quest XI S, Yoshi's Craftwork Hellscape, Link's Awakening, Fire Emblem, Luigi's Mansion... If you're a Switch owner, you're riding cloud nine. If Smash Bros isn't your life and you only bought Joker, chances are you might not care about who came after him. Even if you bought the pass, you might just not care anymore.

Fighter Pass 2 is "truly bonus". The target audience for the whole pass is going to be extremely small because it's been too long for anyone but the dedicated to still care about Smash, and the real tragedy of the situation is that we'll never know the sales numbers for the whole pass vs individual characters, but I would be willing to bet money that after Byleth and Min Min, the amount of people willing to buy into the blind bag model dropped substantially. I wish I could understand the hangup here when I even admitted that Steve is very likely to be a huge driver of single DLC purchases because kids are gonna be kids.

In this way, Nintendo's goals are the same, but reversed in priority, where the single sales are probably going to be much bigger than the pass sales. Does that make sense? Priority number 2, in which a blind buy is sold to a competitive audience remains in the middle either way.

And this?

Regardless, I feel like people are giving up too early and jumping ship to the "Smash's last character is gonna suck!"-train.


It could, but I think it's okay to have some optimism about the final character lol. Hey, for all we know, maybe it'll be a pleasant surprise after all.

I already said they weren't going to make the last character an all in one representation of Hungry Hungry Hippos because of my reasoning. They've backloaded the pass because in that way, they can improve the single sales numbers, which are more profitable.

EDIT:

I really hate to be that guy but considering the nature of the platform we’re on and past events, you guys might wanna take the Steve discussion to DMs or something. I’m not saying this to be the fun police or shut down an interesting debate, just wanna avoid any unnecessary conflict from the fellas upstairs if you catch my drift.

The discussion seemed to be over anyways, so hooray me for making an unnecessary post

I'm sorry that I have betrayed you.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

Regardless, I feel like people are giving up too early and jumping ship to the "Smash's last character is gonna suck!"-train.


It could, but I think it's okay to have some optimism about the final character lol. Hey, for all we know, maybe it'll be a pleasant surprise after all.

I like that idea a lot too honestly. I think the expectations for Smash Ultimate’s newcomers this time around have been incredibly high, so we’re all pretty susceptible to feeling let down and a little defensive whenever the next character is revealed.
I don’t think this is without reason obviously, this game has one of the most stacked character rosters ever, so it’s only natural people were anticipating some crazy reveals only to be met with comparatively underwhelming ones like Byleth and Min Min.

I think we deserve to allow ourselves to be at least a little hopeful and excited for the very end of the game’s hype cycle, despite how many times it’s kinda burned us in the past. We’ve already had the worst possible outcome anyways, so there’s nowhere to go but up from here.

I'm sorry that I have betrayed you.

It’s okay I’ll just go cry in the corner…

 

[Shroob]

Sakurai does not have to say that the DLC is catered to the competitive scene; that's just business sense. The bulk of the profit Nintendo is going to see on Smash Bros is going to be from initial sales. You already said that. Every Tom, Duck and Harry is going to buy the game because it's the new hotness (which they did, Ultimate was the best selling game on Amazon within like... half an hour and remained that way for about a week) and many of those players are going to put it down shortly after they finish the "story mode" or do a handful of classic runs and spirit challenges. Smash has not had a whole ton of unique content in its entire history, and as such, the casual player is just going to move on to greener pastures as soon as some new game launches that their favorite content creator talks up.

The point to DLC in any normal game is to incentivize coming back to the game for a smaller cost than purchasing a sequel, but in a fighting game, that DLC is mostly going to fall flat because by the time it's ready to go, the game isn't en vogue anymore. Smash likely managed to avoid this for Joker because he was a huge name from a game that became a huge hit, and he (along with Piranha Plant) managed to release before anything else huge really hit the Switch. At this juncture, they have several goals:

1. Sell a fighter pass with Joker as the headliner to a casual audience who is still invested enough in the game to play it off and on at new releases for a year.
2. Sell a set of 5 fighters at a slight discount to competitive players who would have ended up buying all of them regardless to learn the matchups and have a competition ready setup to bring to their locals
3. Sell a popular character (Joker) individually to people whose interest in Smash Ultimate is likely to be waning.

In this sense, Fighter Pass 1 was likely much more successful as a blind buy than Fighter Pass 2 was because of the three possibilities, the first two were the most likely.

What's important to consider here, though, is that when Fighter Pass 2 was announced, Smash Ultimate was almost a year old. The Switch had something of a boom year in 2019 with a new, extremely hyped up game dropping almost every month. Daemon X Machina, Dragon Quest XI S, Yoshi's Craftwork Hellscape, Link's Awakening, Fire Emblem, Luigi's Mansion... If you're a Switch owner, you're riding cloud nine. If Smash Bros isn't your life and you only bought Joker, chances are you might not care about who came after him. Even if you bought the pass, you might just not care anymore.

Fighter Pass 2 is "truly bonus". The target audience for the whole pass is going to be extremely small because it's been too long for anyone but the dedicated to still care about Smash, and the real tragedy of the situation is that we'll never know the sales numbers for the whole pass vs individual characters, but I would be willing to bet money that after Byleth and Min Min, the amount of people willing to buy into the blind bag model dropped substantially. I wish I could understand the hangup here when I even admitted that Steve is very likely to be a huge driver of single DLC purchases because kids are gonna be kids.

In this way, Nintendo's goals are the same, but reversed in priority, where the single sales are probably going to be much bigger than the pass sales. Does that make sense? Priority number 2, in which a blind buy is sold to a competitive audience remains in the middle either way.

And this?


I already said they weren't going to make the last character an all in one representation of Hungry Hungry Hippos because of my reasoning. They've backloaded the pass because in that way, they can improve the single sales numbers, which are more profitable.

EDIT:

I'm sorry that I have betrayed you.

Right, I'm not arguing that DLC sales tend to fall off over time, that's just basic business. There's a greater than 100% chance that FP2 has sold less than FP1 did. FP1 launched the same day as the base game, and in December, which was prime time for Americans/Europeans(Christmas), and New Years(Asian territories). FP2 launched a year-post launch.


But the comp scene in Smash is a fraction of the playerbase that bought Ultimate at the end of the day. Ultimate's sold close to 24 million copies as of writing this, and obviously, no, not everyone bought the First, or even 2nd pass. Now, can we accurately translate how many of the people who bought the DLC are comp players? No, we really can't.



But again, how does this loop back to the question. The question was simply "Is Steve big"? That's a cut and dry yes. This has nothing to do with the comp scene or how despised Steve is as a character. "Funni block man" is a way to get DLC to sell.


I didn't come in here saying that the "LAST CHARACTER IS GONNA SUCK!", you can clearly see that from my post, but my original post remains the same as it was then. Steve was shown off early in Pass 2 because he's big, that's it, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find people who disagree with that statement.

 

[Urso_Ornitier]

Coming from a business background, trying to cater the pass for the competitive scene to buy it is silly.

The competitive scene is going to buy the pass no matter who you put in there. Competitive scene is not only dedicated to the game, but they need to know who they are going to fight against.

Even if you won’t play any character or like any character in the first or second pass, you still need to learn how to play against them. You’re still gonna spend time in training to figure out each characters limits and abilities. The best way to do that and stay competitive is to buy the pass, you have no choice.

So I KNOW the competitive scene is going to buy the pass. Whom do I cater to? Casuals and newcomers.

 

[Staarih]

Seeing as this discussion is going on in the Geno thread, whether or not the DLC caters to competitive or casual audiences, we'll have to think about if Geno fits in either. Competitive, maybe (assuming that's closest to the speculation scene), but for the mainstream audience he may be too obscure, sadly.

 

[TooManyToastahs]

Seeing as this discussion is going on in the Geno thread, whether or not the DLC caters to competitive or casual audiences, we'll have to think about if Geno fits in either. Competitive, maybe (assuming that's closest to the speculation scene), but for the mainstream audience he may be too obscure, sadly.

I feel like obscurity is a really hard metric to gauge since there’s little to no hard evidence that suggests a character is well known, if you catch my drift.

Spoiler: I Talk a Lot

I personally think Geno’s pretty well known by most audiences at this point. Super Mario RPG is at least popular enough to keep getting re-releases (Wii and Wii U virtual console as well as the SNES Classic. It’s not on NSO yet but maybe that’s due to legal conflicts again). I’m 99% sure every single Smash content creator (YouTuber, streamer, meme page, etc.) has mentioned Geno at least once in their career, and a lot of these content creators have a pretty large out reach into the casual audience.

There’s also just a lot of appreciation for Super Mario RPG out there, particularly amongst the older crowd. This is once again a difficult metric to quantify, but I have seen my fair share of forum posts on other sites filled with people praising the game and sharing fond memories they had with it. Apparently the game was rented a lot back in the day too, so I imagine a large majority of the fanbase for this game might be on the older side.

But to be fair to the other side of the argument, Geno still isn’t a recognizable Mario character by any stretch of the imagination. Here’s something you’ve probably heard a lot: Geno is a character that only appeared in one Mario spinoff title (two if you count his cameo in Superstar Saga). Yeah it’s an annoying point that everyone and their mother likes to harp on, but it’s unfortunately still true.
This wouldn’t be an issue if characters like Geno and Mallow were kept around for other Mario games, but that’s an entirely separate rant I could go on for hours.

It also doesn’t help that our starboy is basically kept on life support thanks to Smash Bros. hype / speculation. Nowadays he’s more of a Smash character than a Mario character since Nintendo and Square Enix don’t seem too interested in using him any time soon grumble grumble. To the average joe, he’s definitely not a recognizable icon like Mario or Pac Man. But then again… The same can be said about Ice Climbers so I don’t really know if this whole debacle matters. Smash Bros is Smash Bros, it’s not a rat race to determine popularity or anything.

I think the nice thing is that we are now past the need to worry about whether a character is marketable or not. The smart business move would be to front-load the pass with marketable characters / characters you want to use to market other games, and then keep all the fun/unexpected stuff at the back, and it seems like this pass has done that already.

Also there’s that Sakurai quote where he talked about deciding characters not just because they’re recognizable, but because they’re fun to play. So hell maybe all of this means nothing and Sakurai is choosing Doshin the Giant as the final character in the pass.

…please let me will that into existence. doshin the giant fighting solid snake is something i need to see before i die.

 

[Geno Boost]

“Geno is too obscure” this really doesn’t make sense if anyone should be surprised it should be me in fact I live in the Middle East and during my time in school or college some of the students/friends came to me when see say my iPad and my laptop background wallpaper and tell me thats Geno or sometimes they also say that they do recall seeing this character online somewhere and that shocked me honestly as they are not even Nintendo fans or don’t own Nintendo consoles or played SMRPG.

What went throughout the timeline of 25 years Geno was just gaining popularity over and over again some people bring the excuse that SMRPG wasn’t released in Europe so he doesn’t have an audience or people wouldn’t know him there but that’s false as I do remember seeing the poll between the most popular smash pick between japan and America and Europe and Geno surprisingly scored high on the top 10 most wanted characters in Europe and this shows that Geno is still gaining popularity moreover SMRPG got released in Europe back during the Wii and then WiiU era and now the SNES mini some even got emulator such as me.

Don’t also forget last year when Geno was basically the biggest thread on smashboards surpassing both Ridley and King K. Rool threads and so many supporters and new users showed up to show their support.

Not only that but during the Cloud direct many people got to know Geno from Sakurai as well including new generation of Nintendo fans and square-enix fans so pretty much even the kids knows Geno and I have seen many videos by kids that they also wanted to have Geno in smash.

Geno is also popular enough to even get Geno haters for being a popular pick and for being in 2 games and being abandoned by parent companies for 25 years. A character like Porky and Mach Rider will never get this kind of hate as they haven’t reached that popularly.

Want something even more extra? I go to VRChat to many Japanese community and when they my Avatar with a Geno hat they tell me it’s Geno and they even start singing SMRPG songs in front of me.

 

[Staarih]

“Geno is too obscure” this really doesn’t make sense...

I'm not necessarily saying he's "too obscure", but inherently more obscure than many others, even within the Mario universe. In circles like this things are often seen with narrow, speculation-tinted glasses, which may skew a bit from reality. I was personally introduced to Geno via Smash speculation and I don't think I'm the only one - having appeared in one game 20+ years ago does that. While the character does get a lot of love, when discussing about characters which cater to both competitive and casual audiences (like the discussion before), I feel like Geno gets the short end of the stick, as disappointing as that is. There's just way too many other characters with a wider reach.

I think TooManyToastahs said it well: "It also doesn’t help that out starboy is basically kept on life support thanks to Smash Bros. hype / speculation". Then again, this is also actually quite impressive in itself, the Mii Costume and Sakurai talking about it is a testament of it. I'm not saying Geno doesn't ever have a chance because he's obscure, he just needs major fan push to get in and I'm not sure if this cycle of DLC is about that, with the Mii Costume returning and all. I'd love to see Geno get in at some point.

 

[WeirdAlFan101]

Well, I mean, I did include this point on my thing full of arguments, and I did that because it was brought up here, but Sakurai said during Pyra and Mythra's showcase that he did initially try to get Rex functionally working as a fighter.

So if he still got considered, even when his costume was made public knowledge on launch day, it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the road.

Now I still personally don't have high hopes that it will mean anything either, but that's still something to think about in this end stretch.

 

[Cahalan]

All things considered, one of the big trends people seem to gloss over is that every character in Smash Bros Ultimate has had at least one appearance on a Nintendo Console before being included. Even Cloud back during Smash 4 had something via a few 3DS games (peep Maximilian's reaction).

So really, stuff like Master Chief is a big pipe dream unless some big plays are made in the Fall. This still leaves many fan favorites on the table if we exclude DLC Mii Costumes and Assist Trophies.

Now with every Smash 4 Mii costume being accounted for during Kazuya's Costume Wave (rip Lloyd), there isn't much we can go off of for the next character. There were a hefty amount of rumors during the early days of DLC speculation surrounding Koei Tecmo and Ryu Hayabusa potentially being included as DLC.

That's just one of many potential outcomes we can see for Challenger Pack 11. Geno could be one of them and factor into his potential reveal trailer via a Mii Gunner fake-out. I doubt that Geno will be the last fighter, however, but considering Sakurai's continued acknowledgments of him and SMRPG dating as far back as Brawl, there's a glimmer of hope out there at least.