ForsakenM
Smash Lord
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He said the same thing about Vol 1 tho.
Will probably say the same thing about Vol 3.
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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior
- Thread starter PsychoIncarnate
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Will probably say the same thing about Vol 3.
Cahalan
Smash Ace
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Come to think of it, maybe Sakurai left the 16 dummy slots as an absolute limit to DLC as he must have predicted the potential success of DLC for Ultimate and wanted to implement a stopgap as to not be working on the game for an excess of 4 years after launch.
Surely that limit can be patched in an update, and modders will find out as soon as that happens, but until that happens, the 16 dummy slots (now down to 7) are all we have to go off of concretely.
Surely that limit can be patched in an update, and modders will find out as soon as that happens, but until that happens, the 16 dummy slots (now down to 7) are all we have to go off of concretely.
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Enigma735
Smash Lord
Even if we get bonus DLC Fighters, I'm not exactly sure if this puts Geno back in the running. I would love to be wrong, of course, but I can't see Nintendo wanting to make money off of both a Mii Outfit and fighter of the same character.
I'm going to need the source for that claim.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Just to add even more context:
1. Looking at your join date, I'm going to assume you weren't here for the Smash 4 speculation days. Shortly after Mewtwo was released, the game was datamined and this led to the infamous Roy and Ryu leak. There was also 3 additional dummyslots that were unnamed and didn't have anything in them. Sure enough, Roy and Ryu were the "surprise" E3 2015 announcements, accidentally spoiled by Nintendo two months early. The game was datamined once again and, sure enough, those 3 dummyslots were still there but they were all renamed to "Mario." 6 months later, we have Cloud released and Corrin and Bayo announced. Long story short: they filled all the dummyslots so it's a pretty reasonable expectation that they'll do it again with Ultimate.
2.
The number of names floating around insider circles since 2018 is definitely more than 3. Steve and Sephiroth were two of them and having both of them come true this year is pretty wild so more are definitely expected. Ryu, Lloyd, Waluigi, and Geno have been heard by multiple people since 2018 and Dante, Crash, and Master Chief since 2019. In my opinion, more than 3 of these are likely true.
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Oh, I remember those days. I was just a lurker though. It's possible this will be a repeat but we'll only be sure until the time comes. Will Nintendo learn from previous mistakes?
Probably not.
Musubi
Smash Apprentice
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- Nov 4, 2018
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I wonder if Nintendo realizes how much toxic behavior has been targeted at Geno fans since the Mii costume was revealed, and if they do realize it, if they understand that holding Geno's costume off for so long probably added to it. Whether or not Sakurai comments on Geno as a Mii costume, I would like to see him make a statement about treating fanbases who do not get their characters as playable with kindness in a future Famitsu article.
Something else I'd like to see is DLC Mii fighter special moves. So many great and popular characters have been given costumes, and it feels like the 3 special move options for each fighter type isn't enough to really fit all the characters. Like imagine if they gave a special move to brawler that let's them place down an explosive so that the Bomberman costume could have something that fits better. I find this is especially a problem for Geno. None of the special really feel like they'd fit Geno. There's even a perfect chakram side special that can be used for Geno Whirl, but it's stuck to a Mii swordfighter. The only issue with this is that it might affect game balance.
Something else I'd like to see is DLC Mii fighter special moves. So many great and popular characters have been given costumes, and it feels like the 3 special move options for each fighter type isn't enough to really fit all the characters. Like imagine if they gave a special move to brawler that let's them place down an explosive so that the Bomberman costume could have something that fits better. I find this is especially a problem for Geno. None of the special really feel like they'd fit Geno. There's even a perfect chakram side special that can be used for Geno Whirl, but it's stuck to a Mii swordfighter. The only issue with this is that it might affect game balance.
Griselda
Smash Lord
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So, hopping back on real quick (which I seem to be doing a lot of when I'm supposed to be working, but I'll make this quick) the Mii Costume comes out soon, and all of us should buy it. Add this to the whole 'stay vocal, loud and respectful but very blunt about what we want' thing I brought up before - although I'm aware that pushing back hard against the decision might be a little difficult at the moment given the current climate, but..
My question is: we know that it takes roughly two-ish months for a character to be developed at minimum, right? Is there a chance, then, that if we very obviously push back against Geno being a Mii and show them that there's a considerable amount of money to be made with Geno as a fighter they'd charge more for, would it be at all probable for them to throw Geno together as a fighter before the late 2021 deadline? We know that fighters have been developed short-notice before, like Sonic - for better or worse in his case, but he's just an example.
And I'd like honest answers about the possibility regarding the way development works and company politics and such, not just something like "It's best to move on, Geno's not coming to Ultimate". Since this line of thinking acknowledges that he's not currently planned to appear, but suggests a change of plans occurring.
My question is: we know that it takes roughly two-ish months for a character to be developed at minimum, right? Is there a chance, then, that if we very obviously push back against Geno being a Mii and show them that there's a considerable amount of money to be made with Geno as a fighter they'd charge more for, would it be at all probable for them to throw Geno together as a fighter before the late 2021 deadline? We know that fighters have been developed short-notice before, like Sonic - for better or worse in his case, but he's just an example.
And I'd like honest answers about the possibility regarding the way development works and company politics and such, not just something like "It's best to move on, Geno's not coming to Ultimate". Since this line of thinking acknowledges that he's not currently planned to appear, but suggests a change of plans occurring.
Cahalan
Smash Ace
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Maybe not so much as Nintendo... but Square Enix on the other hand?
That's probably the tipping point to convince them and a factor in the whole Square Enix side of this entire DLC run.
Sakurai was keenly interested in multiple characters under the Square Enix umbrella when first discussing DLC for the game. This comes after also negotiating Cloud's return to Ultimate to make "Everyone Is Here" happen.
My gut tells me that his want for more FF7 content in the game was done through negotiations for future DLC plans and the probable falling through for negotiations with Disney for Sora in Smash as DLC.
As for the question of "Geno", I'm sure Sakurai knows that his fans want him playable and personally wants to make a moveset for him since Brawl (as far as the public knows). Geno as a Mii costume with whoever was in Sephiroth's place originally might have been a bargaining chip to get things the way they are now (and potentially how they might pan out for the rest of the DLC run).
If Sora could not be done due to Disney negotiations falling through, Sephiroth and Geno could be the fallback plan. Lemme explain it like this:
Square Enix really wants to get Dragon Quest in on the action and Sakurai agrees. DQ is a huge franchise in Japan and has made waves in the annals of gaming history; it's a no-brainer inclusion. There were rumors of Hero being base game material, but that's debatable at best.
As for other DLC considerations, Sakurai might have personal interests in Geno and other SMRPG content for one reason or another. During said negotiations with Square Enix during Fighter's Pass 1, I bet multiple names past Hero were mentioned... including Geno. I theorize that a tier list of probable characters in order of priority was settled on between Square Enix, Nintendo, and Sakurai.
This is my theorized Square Enix Priority Guestlist for Smash DLC:
1. Hero (Dragon Quest) :: Top Priority for Square Enix with DQ11S on the horizon at the time
2. Sora (Kingdom Hearts) :: If the negotiations went through, this is who we'd end up with in place of Sephiroth
3. Sephiroth (Compilation of FF7) :: This is who would be next in line if Sora was successfully negotiated for.
4. Geno (SMPRG) :: Sakurai's own personal want for Square Enix DLC.
I bet that Crono also came up in DLC discussions when Hero was initially negotiated for. While Crono Trigger is an absolute banger of an RPG on the SNES, like Sora there would be some additional negotiations with Toriyama's parent company(s) for Art assets for Spirits (not impossible to pull off), and getting the original band of devs together to agree on Crono for Smash. If Crono is truly within reach negotiations wise he'd have priority over or under Geno.
This could also explain why leakers involved with "7 Squares" considered Geno as a non-serious contender: he was further down the list of priorities for Smash DLC from Square Enix.
My gut tells me that his want for more FF7 content in the game was done through negotiations for future DLC plans and the probable falling through for negotiations with Disney for Sora in Smash as DLC.
As for the question of "Geno", I'm sure Sakurai knows that his fans want him playable and personally wants to make a moveset for him since Brawl (as far as the public knows). Geno as a Mii costume with whoever was in Sephiroth's place originally might have been a bargaining chip to get things the way they are now (and potentially how they might pan out for the rest of the DLC run).
If Sora could not be done due to Disney negotiations falling through, Sephiroth and Geno could be the fallback plan. Lemme explain it like this:
Square Enix really wants to get Dragon Quest in on the action and Sakurai agrees. DQ is a huge franchise in Japan and has made waves in the annals of gaming history; it's a no-brainer inclusion. There were rumors of Hero being base game material, but that's debatable at best.
As for other DLC considerations, Sakurai might have personal interests in Geno and other SMRPG content for one reason or another. During said negotiations with Square Enix during Fighter's Pass 1, I bet multiple names past Hero were mentioned... including Geno. I theorize that a tier list of probable characters in order of priority was settled on between Square Enix, Nintendo, and Sakurai.
This is my theorized Square Enix Priority Guestlist for Smash DLC:
1. Hero (Dragon Quest) :: Top Priority for Square Enix with DQ11S on the horizon at the time
2. Sora (Kingdom Hearts) :: If the negotiations went through, this is who we'd end up with in place of Sephiroth
3. Sephiroth (Compilation of FF7) :: This is who would be next in line if Sora was successfully negotiated for.
4. Geno (SMPRG) :: Sakurai's own personal want for Square Enix DLC.
I bet that Crono also came up in DLC discussions when Hero was initially negotiated for. While Crono Trigger is an absolute banger of an RPG on the SNES, like Sora there would be some additional negotiations with Toriyama's parent company(s) for Art assets for Spirits (not impossible to pull off), and getting the original band of devs together to agree on Crono for Smash. If Crono is truly within reach negotiations wise he'd have priority over or under Geno.
This could also explain why leakers involved with "7 Squares" considered Geno as a non-serious contender: he was further down the list of priorities for Smash DLC from Square Enix.
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MattX20
Smash Hero
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If I had to guess, star language or at least older stars probably sound like more focused/mature versions of what PM64's are
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
We actually tested this out in the Fighter's Pass. One lingering theory that we had back in those days was that the 16 dummyslots could be filled because of ALTs. When Hero was announced it was "oh, okay, Hero's going to knock out 4 of them" aaaaaaaaaaand... He didn't. The game was datamined and Hero only fills one despite having four seperate ALTs. Along with stuff I was hearing at the time, this further solidified in my eyes that the Fighter's Pass wasn't the end and that additional DLC was very likely to be announced by the end of 2019.
YsDisciple
Smash Lord
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I wonder if Nintendo still fancies the idea of a legit RPG spinoff of the Super Mario series. Paper Mario with its latest entry kind of branched out into its own thing, having ditched some of the RPG elements since Super Paper Mario and onward, that it used to have in the original N64 game. Intelligent Systems went bankrupt this year so the fate of the Mario & Luigi games is up in the air, and that spinoff in particular was the closest RPG experience to SMRPG. Thus I do wonder if, come March 2021 they could perhaps surprise us with the announcement of a brand new Mario game within the RPG genre. Unless... they just want to keep Mario to his platforming games, and sports/kart/party spinoffs.
ForsakenM
Smash Lord
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I'm sorry, what?
Why would you NOT make the most money you can off of all of us fans thinking Geno is over, only to release him as a character later after you get maximum costume sales for Wave 8 and now we all come around and give them an additional 5-6.99?
That's business at it's finest.
S1itchey
Smash Apprentice
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I hope they still care about the RPGs. I'm scared they might not though as they seem to want mario to become more of a brand name like Mickey mouse than an actually exploitative property. Hopefully nintendo surprises us but my expectations are low.
Enigma735
Smash Lord
Interesting theory.
I've also been thinking about something as well. Personally, I think their is a chance, albeit unlikely, that maybe the Smash 4 DLC outfits could be outliers in terms of disconfirmations. A trend that is very apparent is that it seems like Sakurai is setting a goal to bring back every third-party Smash 4 outfit with each DLC wave. Considering the ground work is already their for those returning outfits, it feels like its not too hard to bring back those outfits, especially considering how the negotiations were already made for these outfits back in Smash 4. I think their is a slight possibility that whether a "costumed character" is in the cards or not, Sakurai will still include that character's costume since the work was already made in Smash 4.
Something that also supports this theory is that the first-party DLC costumes from Smash 4 made it in to Ultimate's base game, which yes, includes Inkling's, King K. Rool's and Isabelle's. And obviously, these three characters are separate playable characters as well. As such, I think their is a possibility that if first-party Mii Outfits can be both playable and Mii Outfits, then its certainly a slim possibility that this goes for the third-party Smash 4 DLC outfits as well.
With this theory in mind, I do think that completely brand new Mii Outfits like Travis Touchdown and Sans DO deconfirm considering these are completely brand new. As for the Smash 4 ones, I do think its at least possible that they may not deconfirm completely, and that Sakurai may just want to bring back every Smash 4 outfit, regardless if that character is planned to come playable later on.
Of course, this is very much a tinfoil hat theory, but it makes at least some sense to me, so I'll keep it in mind if we do get bonus characters in the future.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Well, we got a December reveal/release so now Smash's perfect December track record continues. This makes it pretty reasonable to expect something noteworthy to be announced next December too. With March, June, and December already being hard bookmarked like this, it means pack reveals and releases would have to be slowed down by more than twice the average gap to meet this perfectly. I think this adds more credence to "things aren't as they seem" as we go into 2021.
S1itchey
Smash Apprentice
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Add on to the possibly of a smrpg remake and that would be one the smartest business decisions they could make.
Fatmanonice
Banned via Warnings
Based on what Imran Khan said, Byleth was supposed to be released in December 2019 which means that Season 2 was supposed to be a December 2019 announcement too. This said, the "December 31st, 2021" deadline was already decided by November 2019 because that was when the presentation was recorded. At this point, they were saying "okay, we're only going to add stuff up until this time" and made it sound like they would totally nuke certain plans if they ran out of time. Fast forward to Steve's presentation and their statement is made concrete: everything they have planned for DLC will be released by 2022. In my mind, this says two things:
1. They have a concrete roadmap of everything else they want to add for DLC.
2. They're confident they can all of this on time without issue (developing and releasing 4 characters despite a global pandemic probably gave them enough optics and confidence to know they can)
One last thing to keep in mind is that, according to Sakurai, the last character of Season 2 was greenlit in January 2020 around Byleth's presentation so everybody who is going to happen between now and 2022 has already been decided. "Check's in the mail. You're beautiful, don't ever change. (You know what I mean.)" It feels like a done deal so now it's just a matter of waiting things out and seeing what they picked.
1. They have a concrete roadmap of everything else they want to add for DLC.
2. They're confident they can all of this on time without issue (developing and releasing 4 characters despite a global pandemic probably gave them enough optics and confidence to know they can)
One last thing to keep in mind is that, according to Sakurai, the last character of Season 2 was greenlit in January 2020 around Byleth's presentation so everybody who is going to happen between now and 2022 has already been decided. "Check's in the mail. You're beautiful, don't ever change. (You know what I mean.)" It feels like a done deal so now it's just a matter of waiting things out and seeing what they picked.
pinshadow
Smash Lord
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Yeah. and doesn't that kinda imply, you know, NOT Geno? I feel like we've been working on the assumption the entire time that while base-game stuff doesn't reaaally matter, and Min-Min is proof of that, DLC Spirits and Costumes are a lot more concrete in terms of what they're doing. They wouldn't do a Resident Evil Spirit Event if they were putting Leon in, they probably aren't doing a Ubisoft character if they got two costumes with Byleth, you get the idea. That's what made the missing Square costumes so suspicious in the first place, there was no reason for them not to come back, and Square is consistent with keeping their stuff with their characters like they did with the Smash 4 Mii Wave, so then that heavily implied we'd get another Square character. And that is exactly what happened. There is genuinely no reason for them to bring back the Geno costume now if they planned to make him playable.
OptimisticStrifer
Smash Champion
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Fatman I have a question for you; more just your opinion
How likely do you think the next Smash game will be the port everyone initially thought Ultimate would be? I could certainly seeing Nintendo trying to milk it's success for as long as they can get away with it.
How likely do you think the next Smash game will be the port everyone initially thought Ultimate would be? I could certainly seeing Nintendo trying to milk it's success for as long as they can get away with it.
ForsakenM
Smash Lord
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Or, you know, Geno is contracted to him X number of costumes just like Sephiroth was and there are a limited number of returning costumes, and Square only comes with Square content so it was always gonna be like this?
Thus, Geno's costume comes back with Sephy and we all pity party and buy the costume, getting max sales. Then Geno comes in Vol 3 since Sora would still likely fall through negotiations again and now we pay them more money.
Also, imagine having a PNG-Event and then going back that company later and thinking 'You know, we just got Vol 3 greenlit, but we did put glorified pictures in the game already, so I guess Leon or Jill are off limits.'
Would be kinda dumb, right? Though Dante and Wright are on the top of the list for Capcom, so RE is probably screwed anyway.
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Dee Dude
“Never ask Dee for anything again”
Sakurai’s latest POTD is a SMPRG reference using the costume, while it’s sad that Geno couldn’t make it in, atleast he’s still an open fan of the game.
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Paraspikey
Smash Journeyman
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If a Vol. 3 gets greenlit, most things are back on the table, they're able to go back and ask companies for characters regardless on if they already have content within the game.
Mr. Peepee
Smash Journeyman
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This has to be my favorite pic of the day image so far. Incredible reference!!!
MrJudd
Smash Journeyman
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I feel like the situation about Ultimate's DLC is much more complex than what we thought at first: we don't really have enough at this point to know everything, but I feel like a lot of things were decided way before most of us are expecting and Sephiroth is a living proof of that.
In fact, with the post of December 2018 brought up by the Newcomer Thread recently regarding multiple characters being already in works way before their actual release (almost 2 years at least), I'd like to propose a new argument: Fighter Pass 1 (or it's characters at least) was decided way before we all think it was, maybe even before 2018.
In fact, with the post of December 2018 brought up by the Newcomer Thread recently regarding multiple characters being already in works way before their actual release (almost 2 years at least), I'd like to propose a new argument: Fighter Pass 1 (or it's characters at least) was decided way before we all think it was, maybe even before 2018.
- Byleth was chosen to promote Three Houses, but what people forget is that the game itself was planned for 2018 before the delay happened.
- A fun thing brought up by Maximillian Dood back on Terry's reveal is that the character itself was a result of the SNK games that came out early in the Switch's lifecycle and did extremely well.
- Banjo's inclusion came because Minecraft paved the way right open: if Steve was in talks for 5 years, Banjo could've been decided at any moment between 2015 and 2018.
- According to the post I mentioned earlier, Enix was excited to put Hero in the game and was even planned for base game as the retro Japanese rep.
- As for Joker: it's more conjecture on my part, but Atlus is a big supporter for Nintendo (especially on the 3DS). While SMTV is still on it's way, Persona 5 was the most recent Persona entry (and one who made a big splash in the mainstream). That combined with the fact that Atlus milks a Persona game for a long time while they prepare the next entry, it's safe to say that Joker also was planned for a while.
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dream1ng
Smash Lord
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In Smash 4 they added six DLC slots, five dummy Marios and Mewtwo.
But you'll remember there were seven DLC characters total.
Because later, as the first three Marios would be accounted for with Lucas, Roy and Ryu, an extra sixth Mario was added.
The original count for characters didn't reflect how many we got. It was a preliminary number, that didn't reflect the final product.
You'll recall that it was also datamined that 4's All-Star had up to, if I recall correctly, nine stages, even though only seven were used in the final product.
There's no reason to believe Ultimate, which had its sixteen slots from the beginning, doesn't follow the same procedure of leaving ample space for the sake of future-proofing (especially given how it was almost assured that DLC was part of the plan from the beginning this time), but without the premeditated intention of having a final exact quantity. This is standard practice in which there is even a precedent in the previous game.
You can keep talking about the names that float around behind closed doors but if it's not lead to correctly deducing characters or timing, which it hasn't in your case, then it's not of much actual value.
No he didn't.
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Enigma735
Smash Lord
I may be wrong, but I believe Sephiroth is in reference to Culex.
Either way, its awesome to actually get an official SMRPG reference from Sakurai.
Sora Ltd. is the name of Sakurai's company.
MonkeyDLenny
Smash Lord
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Man, I dunno if this is salt in the wound or a celebration. Either way, I feel like it was really just SE who dropped the ball here. Sakurai was on our side
EDIT: Whoops, Dee Dude beat me to it lol
— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) December 20, 2020
EDIT: Whoops, Dee Dude beat me to it lol
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Powerman293
Smash Ace
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God the Mii almost looks like Geno from behind....
Nazyrus
Smash Champion
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Huh… is this a Culex reference even maybe?
Cahalan
Smash Ace
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Looking into numberings for a bit, it looks like the end goal for Ultimate once DLC has concluded is to have just slightly over 100 named playable characters in the game.
This total includes named character alt costumes (Alph, Koopalings, Hero Alts, Alex, Zombie, Enderman) and Echoes.
This total includes named character alt costumes (Alph, Koopalings, Hero Alts, Alex, Zombie, Enderman) and Echoes.
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AceAttorney9000
Smash Lord
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I know it's probably meant to be just a fun reference as well as a nod to the fans, but it just comes off as inconsiderately painful considering how close we got after so much support for so long...
Dan
Smash Lord
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It would be nice if he confirmed this... it would be nice to hear him say anything about Geno after Thursday's silence.
G0nard
Smash Apprentice
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Too me this bothers me. If Geno IS suppose to be a surprise later down the line of DLC, Wouldn't you wanna wait for the fighter to be revealed BEFORE making those references?
Dan
Smash Lord
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User was warned for this post
He. Will. Not. Be. A. Fighter.
Enigma735
Smash Lord
In other news, even GameXplain is covering the SMRPG reference from Sakurai.
- Status