Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[GodzillaGuy64]

I mean, my paranoia stems from actual paranoia, anxiety, etc. I got the short end of the stick for mental health genes, sadly.



I... kinda disagree to an extent actually. I really do think we'll get a Sakurai video in May so the June direct is free for a double reveal. If we end up getting the ARMS reveal in the June direct, that means we basically went like 4.5 months without a character reveal, 4.5 months without ANY FP2 characters revealed, AND it's eating up one of the June slots.



Ugh I didn't even think of that; thanks for adding that to the paranoia's fuel to the fire.

I do think Geno will be at the June direct though, assuming the heavy Mario rumors are true. I know Nintendo doesn't usually make sense, but I'd think they'd want to push "Mario Mario Mario" as hard as they can, and Geno pushes Mario while Rex doesn't. Plus, and don't hate me for this, but Rex just isn't a great E3 pick unless they suddenly want to start pushing Xenoblade a lot harder.

I'm in the mindset that Rex (and Pyra?) is in FP2, but not in the first half.

They said the character's gonna be revealed in June. How can they do a Sakurai presentation in May?

 

[OffBi]

At least Rayman has the excuse of being nearly impossible to make a faithful Mii costume out of. I'm going into some heavy speculation about Sakurai's philosophies and Ubisoft's policies, but I think it could just be that when Sakurai thinks Rayman, he thinks the very first Rayman game, but Ubisoft would prefer that any representation of Rayman is the modern Legends/Origins style. Often times people pin the blame on Sega for a similar reasoning behind why Sonic doesn't change color to pay homage to his friends or a powerup like Super Sonic, but other than that I can't think of any proof that a third party has outright kept their character out of the game over design conflict or that Sakurai has turned down a character for that reason. But, even Rayman's spirit is his modern design, despite the fact that many spirits aim for the oldest piece of artwork they could get a high quality scan of.


Sorry if I came off seeming to think that you believe Geno is only coming back as a costume - that's not the case at all. What I'm hoping you'll take away from this is that there is no "premium" costume, and if there were, Geno would not be getting one. Sans got an "insanely faithful costume" because how the hell would they botch it? I seriously want someone to come up with some way that Sans could get a costume and it not be faithful.

I understand that to you, "faithful" is the issue, but you need to understand that these costumes aren't all made to be faithful, some of them are made for this really rare concept called "fun".
View attachment 269292
Is this the best Nintendo could do to make K.K. Slider into a Mii hat? Of course not. They could have given him the full head treatment. But they didn't, because they didn't want to. It's funny to wear the K.K. Slider hoodie. This may not be the entire reason, but it's an attempt to illustrate the point that a decision is made by someone on how to represent the character, and sometimes they go with a comical approach. I mean, the full costume has K.K. Slider shooting lasers from the tip of his guitar... Why wouldn't they have some fun with that?

Another thing to keep in mind is that there's almost no way the original designers or a designer from the home franchise of these costumes isn't consulted on the design of the costume, and even if they aren't, Toby Fox was consulted on the design of the Sans costume. I guess that he could have told them "the body is fine, let's just ignore the head", but the thing about costumes with a visible face barring costumes like K.K. that are intentionally designed to be funny, the character has a natural skin tone. There is no bone white for Mii fighters, and I don't think they would have ever expected us to do something like that.

I drew some ****ty mock-ups of the alternative Sans costumes that would have been "unfaithful"; let's say he gets the K.K. Slider treatment:

View attachment 269297


Horrifying. Also he kind of looks like Papyrus. That's not very representative of Sans. How about a hat:
View attachment 269298

Well, it's better! But maybe it could be confused for a Team Skull hat? Or to be more realistic, it's just the top of a skeleton head. At that point, you're really treating Sans like a meme - any skeleton could be Sans and Sans could be any skeleton.

Is this working against my point? Are you going to tell me "well since they could have done that it means that they put extra effort into Sans!" But that means that since they didn't do this for Black Knight, or Ray Mk-III or Samus, Meta Knight, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, those are all "premium" costumes with extra effort put into them.

Ultimately, the design choices don't really make a lot of sense. I don't think there's a pattern to it, they just do what they think looks right for whatever they're going for. Or maybe I can go for the low hanging fruit and say "I sure do remember when Sans put a Gaster Blaster on his arm and started blasting", which is the biggest inconsistency with his costume.

Look back at my first long post about costumes and why they don't have "premium" variants. Geno is not that important. If Sakurai thought in Smash 4 that Geno's costume was a good enough representation of him, then if he has no intention of making a fighter out of him, and has an intention to get the costume back, we're getting that costume. He's not getting upgraded, he never was getting upgraded, there is no "upgrade". I think the most likely scenario, which was dodged for some reason:

Hero revealed. Comes with his Dragon Quest costumes, and Chocobo. Then we would have gotten a Sans-esque fade to black -> Smash x Super Mario RPG -> Geno's original costume, Beware the Forest's Mushrooms track. He does some vaguely Geno things and that's it. Nothing would have changed, Sakurai would have shrugged and told us it's better than nothing. It still might happen, rude as that would feel, but I am so confident that we're not going to see an "upgraded" Geno costume I promise you I will buy the thing for you if he comes with some kind of new head to be more "faithful".

>those "unfaithful" sans costumes
I don't know which image best describes my mood, so have some of them

Spoiler: Mood

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...Didn't Sakurai say the full character is being revealed in June for ARMS?

That said, I view premium costume as "has music" as the key factor. Goemon and the previous Geno costume were just as faithful, so it doesn't really seem straight-out based upon quality alone. Just like I don't buy it's some Indie-only thing. The only key factor has to be music. There may be other stuff, but we have two examples at most of premium costumes. Not saying Geno would be one, but there's no update to be done. It's already premium details. Adding a few extra polish might be one thing(but that's generally Ultimate as normal), but you literally need music and it becomes equivalent to the other premium costumes. It's not exactly an upgrade in that regard. We can't even outright say they're going to be "almost identical to the real thing" since we really don't know that for sure. Once more examples come along, we'll have a far better sample pool. The Mallow Hat could be labeled premium for all we know and come with music Geno doesn't while the latter is playable.

That also said, we should find out pretty soon what's going on. Just got about 2 months, since as I noted, the proper reveal for Challenger Pack 6 is supposed to be in June right now. That's not just the release, but when the showcase is supposed to be. This looks a lot more like a Byleth-esque reveal. The fact they only told us the franchise(and made it clear it's ARMS 1, if a 2nd game is being worked on) was just to boost attention to the game. They gave us a demo(a week is not long enough imo) as well to help promote it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Saw people respond about Richter being in Harmony of Despair in 2010 but that adds to the point I was making earlier. Richter was DLC and not the main character. He keeps coming back as cameos because Castlevania fans like him. He hasn't been the lead in a Castlevania game since 1993. Geno's not too terribly different given the basis of my argument was that Richter primarily got in because of Castlevania fans, not Smash fans. If Sakurai is willing to cater to the fans of a specific third party franchise, why is Geno different? As an extension of this, this is also the guy that genuinely fought Square itself to get Dragon Quest in Smash and then managed to haggle for FOUR of the most popular main characters. Given his history with Geno, I'm hard pressed to believe he wouldn't put in similar effort.

 

[Polarthief]

They said the character's gonna be revealed in June. How can they do a Sakurai presentation in May?

...Didn't Sakurai say the full character is being revealed in June for ARMS?

I heard "released"; let me go back and watch that (awful) direct again...

"the next fighter will be ANNOUNCED and released---"... ffs, yeah I heard wrong and now I'm mad about it.

Now I'm wondering if the delay is so they can be like "hey look, spirits and assist trophies don't deconfirm!" by adding Spring Man, and then they go right into Geno and Waluigi reveals. I am very skeptical of seeing ARMS+2 reveals though, unless one of them is one of the bonuses Fatman has been talking about, or they might come to their senses, realize they didn't reveal crap back in that direct mini, and throw us a bone with some extra reveals.

 

[Fatmanonice]

So, we've kind of established that Nintendo is basically hardcore holding all its cards until June which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Nintendo has been doing Directs for 8 1/2 years so some of you may not remember the days when Nintendo had two major news dumps a year: E3 and usually something before the holidays. Based on this, I think "E3" is going to be great by default because we're practically guaranteed a news dump that we haven't seen since like E3 2010, which was one of Nintendo's best.

 

[YsDisciple]

I'd like to add that by now, the Super Smash Bros. franchise at present day (evidenced with Ultimate) has gained the status of being widely acknowledged as what many could consider the de-facto Video Game Franchise Hall of Fame. Back in the N64 days and up till Melee, it was all Nintendo. When Brawl came around and the guest characters started joining, third parties were still perhaps a bit weary about lending their characters; however Sonic and Snake proved otherwise. Came Smash 4 and by then we could see that third more third parties seemed to have opened up to the idea of lending their IPs for the game (Capcom = Mega Man and Ryu; Bandai Namco = Pac-Man; etc.). And now, with Ultimate, I think it's pretty safe to say that the mentality for most third parties now is more of a "I'd like my characters to be in Smash", rather than "I'm not sure if it's a good idea". This is of course became possible thanks to the effort, attention to detail, and love that Mr. Sakurai and staff (from Sora Limited, Nintendo, Bandai Namco, and collaborating third parties) have put into the game and how it has shown through each character's designs, playstyles, etc. The clear representations of faithful character adaptations from their source material are KEY for this (i.e.: Mega Man, Ryu, Terry, Sonic, Banjo & Kazooie, Hero, etc.).

With this, all I ask fellow Genobros, and guests that frequent this thread is to have faith in the dev team. Even at launch, Ultimate was a stellar game to begin with. The additional content afterwards has been generosity from the devs.

 

[Polarthief]

So, we've kind of established that Nintendo is basically hardcore holding all its cards until June which is kind of crazy when you think about it. Nintendo has been doing Directs for 8 1/2 years so some of you may not remember the days when Nintendo had two major news dumps a year: E3 and usually something before the holidays. Based on this, I think "E3" is going to be great by default because we're practically guaranteed a news dump that we haven't seen since like E3 2010, which was one of Nintendo's best.

Seeing as we had an okay direct in September and a garbage-tier mini in March, on top of both Microsoft and Sony pushing their new consoles... They must be aware that they need to go all out this year, yeah? Surely they must.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I heard "released"; let me go back and watch that (awful) direct again...

"the next fighter will be ANNOUNCED and released---"... ffs, yeah I heard wrong and now I'm mad about it.

Now I'm wondering if the delay is so they can be like "hey look, spirits and assist trophies don't deconfirm!" by adding Spring Man, and then they go right into Geno and Waluigi reveals. I am very skeptical of seeing ARMS+2 reveals though, unless one of them is one of the bonuses Fatman has been talking about, or they might come to their senses, realize they didn't reveal crap back in that direct mini, and throw us a bone with some extra reveals.

Honestly, the fact they advertised them as characters from ARMS 1 and used the logo? I don't see it having a chance of happening that it's anyone but an ARMS 1 character. It might not be an AT or Spirit, and it's most likely Spring Man and/or Ribbon Girl due to being the core mascots(the game doesn't really have a protagonist exactly), but it could be anyone among the listed picture, by their own admission.

I also doubt more than two reveals(including the ARMS character) at most. That's a lot during that time. They also are slowly working on each character. Hopefully they don't pull another logo/franchise thing. It made sense since COVID19 delayed development for this challenger pack. I'd rather wait it out for others. It also is a good idea to give one more character as long as they have a tiny bit to show. Even a render is good. But I could see them only announcing it ala Joker with a special trailer.

 

[Polarthief]

Honestly, the fact they advertised them as characters from ARMS 1 and used the logo? I don't see it having a chance of happening that it's anyone but an ARMS 1 character. It might not be an AT or Spirit, and it's most likely Spring Man and/or Ribbon Girl due to being the core mascots(the game doesn't really have a protagonist exactly), but it could be anyone among the listed picture, by their own admission.

I wasn't arguing it could be an ARMS 2 rep. I was saying ARMS reveal + 2 more reveals (7 and 8).

I also doubt more than two reveals(including the ARMS character) at most. That's a lot during that time.

I get that, but they showed off *nothing* in March, so this wouldn't even be a double reveal in my eyes. Plus they could just say who #8 is without actually showing them off, like when they showed off Terry but had very little gameplay of him (just show the model, or don't even if you can't yet).

It also is a good idea to give one more character as long as they have a tiny bit to show. Even a render is good. But I could see them only announcing it ala Joker with a special trailer.

Yeah and that'd be fine, at least for me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wasn't arguing it could be an ARMS 2 rep. I was saying ARMS reveal + 2 more reveals (7 and 8).

Ah, misread.

I get that, but they showed off *nothing* in March, so this wouldn't even be a double reveal in my eyes. Plus they could just say who #8 is without actually showing them off, like when they showed off Terry but had very little gameplay of him (just show the model, or don't even if you can't yet).

Because of COVID19. They literally said it. There's little chance for a third reveal because they were still delayed on tons of work. 1 reveal because they'd have at most a small trailer or picture is enough with the time they actually had to work on it(which is very little). Realistically, we might've gotten the proper reveal for ARMS with a character in May at the latest otherwise, or that's when it would've released. They were highly delayed too much to show off anything.

That's oddly said. Okay, so, by May at the latest expecting only a ARMS character reveal is most likely if COVID19 didn't exist. Anybody else would've been likely as late as June for a quick trailer, right around the time after ARMS' showcase. I hope that explains it better.

Yeah and that'd be fine, at least for me.

Better than March, no doubt. And yeah, the mini-direct wasn't too exciting. Can't blame 'em. They really didn't have a lot to show cause of the pandemic.

 

[Polarthief]

Because of COVID19. They literally said it.

I thought they said that because of how late the mini was and for the lack of anything leading up to it. Corona or not, I don't see them having nothing to show for yet again in June.
Edit: I typed this before looking at the exact wording.

There's little chance for a third reveal because they were still delayed on tons of work.

But they have the name of the character, just say who it is.

Better than March, no doubt. And yeah, the mini-direct wasn't too exciting. Can't blame 'em. They really didn't have a lot to show cause of the pandemic.

What was their reasoning for having very little 2020 content in September though, y'know? Honestly, I don't think it has as much to do with Corona as it does with them holding their cards until (what would have been) "E3"/June.

PS: Just looked again, here's their exact wording on Corona. Has more to do with release dates/"other information":

June's gonna be big, pandemic or no. Has to be.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought they said that because of how late the mini was and for the lack of anything leading up to it. Corona or not, I don't see them having nothing to show for yet again in June.

One small thing after ARMS, sure. But beyond that? Not very likely. Though I have to reread what they said again. Cause I remember it also explaining that they didn't have much to show as is.

Okay, that confirms it for me that the delays of games are related to COVID19. Since that's literally the only context of what could be delayed. Albeit, that's my take on it.

But they have the name of the character, just say who it is.

That's fine for Challenger Pack 7. For 6, they needed to promote ARMS, so gave us a guessing game.

What was their reasoning for having very little 2020 content in September though, y'know? Honestly, I don't think it has as much to do with Corona as it does with them holding their cards until (what would have been) "E3"/June.

Of course some stuff was held back. They need to make the entire year useful. Also, they had some major projects being released very soon, so taking away from Pokemon and New Horizons is a bad idea. That's their big stuff. Everything else was clearly smaller in comparison. If it wasn't for COVID19, March's direct(which would've almost assuredly be around the time released that it was, so it doesn't take away attention from New Horizon, their latest money sink), they'd have more content to show.

 

[Powerman293]

Seeing as we had an okay direct in September and a garbage-tier mini in March, on top of both Microsoft and Sony pushing their new consoles... They must be aware that they need to go all out this year, yeah? Surely they must.

Lol this is Nintendo. They don't understand ideas regarding MUST HAVING to do stuff. Thye could just as easily be like "Well Corona screwed over the economy, so people can't afford launches of PS5 and Series X, so we can just do literally nothing and sell Switches since they're cheaper."

 

[Polarthief]

That's fine for Challenger Pack 7. For 6, they needed to promote ARMS, so gave us a guessing game.

7 I expect more than a name, seeing as the ARMS reveal is making up for the lack of one from Feb-May, and will be releasing like, what, a week after the reveal? I don't even count the ARMS reveal as a June reveal.
7 should be mostly done (unless they explicitly say Corona is the cause of that delay). 8 they can at least name drop.

Of course some stuff was held back. They need to make the entire year useful.

By making the first half pretty barebones? Unless you like AC, you only have XC1 re-releasing and a PMD remake (which is very hit-or-miss for most; I remember loving the original but found the demo to be very... eh) for the entire first half.

Also a reminder that AC was *supposed* to be a 2019 game until it was delayed to March. Could you imagine how awful 2020 would start out if they didn't have AC hardcore carrying them?

Also, they had some major projects being released very soon, so taking away from Pokemon and New Horizons is a bad idea.

I still don't understand this argument. There will be some overlap in consumers, sure, but if things are spaced out, fans will be excited for everything they plan to get. Don't dump release dates together because that's obviously dumb when you force people to make decisions between which game to buy (or even play if money isn't an issue), but revealing stuff together... idk, I don't see how it takes away from one or the other.

All I know is the rest of 2020 is pretty much empty and March gave us ****all, so if June doesn't blow our minds, that's gonna be a really sad direct and we'll be left wondering what the hell happened. Obviously Corona exists, but that doesn't mean they can't show off anything they've been working on the last few years.

If it wasn't for COVID19, March's direct(which would've almost assuredly be around the time released that it was, so it doesn't take away attention from New Horizon, their latest money sink), they'd have more content to show.

Nah, because then they'd have way less to show off in June, which is when Sony and Microsoft will surely do something crazy of their own as the two battle it out for next gen's top console. Nintendo obviously doesn't want to look like the little brother and is holding everything for June (another post anyone can SS and laugh at me in June if it turns out to be false). Just like with Geno's evidence pile, I think June's pile is starting to look similar in that it'll be big and chock-full of Mario stuff.

Edit: Reminder that E3 was canceled in mid-March, about 4.5 weeks ago, and then Nintendo posted their mini-direct just 2 weeks later, so they were still planning for their E3 direct in Feb/early March (when PAX East still went off). Everything was still in the mindset of "E3 is happening, save stuff for it".

Lol this is Nintendo. They don't understand ideas regarding MUST HAVING to do stuff

Idk man, they know their stock is down, they know Switch production is severely dampened, and they know they're having a relatively crappy first half of 2020, outside of AC.

Thye could just as easily be like "Well Corona screwed over the economy, so people can't afford launches of PS5 and Series X, so we can just do literally nothing and sell Switches since they're cheaper."

All those nonexistent Switches since everywhere is sold out and not getting new units.

Mario's 35th anniversary, March direct had nothing, the insider rumors circling around; nah, June's gonna be big. Laugh at me post-direct if I'm wrong, I'm sticking to that.


TL;DR cuz there's a lot of rambling here:
- Corona isn't why March was small. Scroll up to my previous post for what they said in the mini direct.
- E3 canceled in mid-March. PAX East went off end of Feb start of March.
- Nintendo still had everything in mind regarding E3 still happening since the mini direct happened only ~3 weeks after E3 was canceled.
- Stuff is being saved for June. June direct will be big. May not necessarily be big for Smash, but it will be big in general.

 

[StarLight42]

We already have so many characters that have no business being in Smash

-Dr Mario
-Piranha Plant
-Roy
-Pichu
-Wolf
-Richter
-Ness and Lucas
-Young Link and Toon Link

maybe even so more than that

Not trying to dab on any of these characters, almost more half of them I actually really enjoy and i’m glad they’re in. My point is that the Smash fanbase is always going to make rules about what characters can’t get in, and then when said characters gets in, they’ll make up new rules as to why that character was a necessary inclusion.

I mean, really. If Ness wasn’t in Smash 64, would anyone really be going crazy for Earthbound reps? The answer is a cold hard no, no matter what type of hindsight bias you might have. Same for a lot of those other characters I listed.

Urban Champion was a classic NES game, but I don’t see anyone inching for the “Urban Champion” to join Smash. But if he WAS in, we’d be seeing all of that “he’s based and he was a lock!!!1” hilarious nonsense.

Mark my words, we’ll see it for Geno too. Some of his biggest detractors will hide their tail between their legs, pretend they never ever doubted him, and sing his praises while bowing down to their newly built Geno altar.

I’m saying this because I think some of you guys get way too ...affected by the detractors and you try to understand why they are the way they are, even though it’s quite simple, they’re trolls but they also want fake internet brownie points, likely due to a lack of attention in real life, because otherwise I fail to understand why they have such a god complex. It’s basic common sense human psychology.

And i’ll fully admit i’ve “taken the bait” in the past before as well, but as I have distanced myself from toxic smash discussion centres, i’ve been much better off for it.

Because believe me, it’s not going to stop at Geno. Once Geno is in, there will be multiple other popular requests that attract the Smash trolls like a magnet. It is inevitable.

Thanks for watching my ted talk.

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

At least Rayman has the excuse of being nearly impossible to make a faithful Mii costume out of. I'm going into some heavy speculation about Sakurai's philosophies and Ubisoft's policies, but I think it could just be that when Sakurai thinks Rayman, he thinks the very first Rayman game, but Ubisoft would prefer that any representation of Rayman is the modern Legends/Origins style. Often times people pin the blame on Sega for a similar reasoning behind why Sonic doesn't change color to pay homage to his friends or a powerup like Super Sonic, but other than that I can't think of any proof that a third party has outright kept their character out of the game over design conflict or that Sakurai has turned down a character for that reason. But, even Rayman's spirit is his modern design, despite the fact that many spirits aim for the oldest piece of artwork they could get a high quality scan of.


Sorry if I came off seeming to think that you believe Geno is only coming back as a costume - that's not the case at all. What I'm hoping you'll take away from this is that there is no "premium" costume, and if there were, Geno would not be getting one. Sans got an "insanely faithful costume" because how the hell would they botch it? I seriously want someone to come up with some way that Sans could get a costume and it not be faithful.

I understand that to you, "faithful" is the issue, but you need to understand that these costumes aren't all made to be faithful, some of them are made for this really rare concept called "fun".
View attachment 269292
Is this the best Nintendo could do to make K.K. Slider into a Mii hat? Of course not. They could have given him the full head treatment. But they didn't, because they didn't want to. It's funny to wear the K.K. Slider hoodie. This may not be the entire reason, but it's an attempt to illustrate the point that a decision is made by someone on how to represent the character, and sometimes they go with a comical approach. I mean, the full costume has K.K. Slider shooting lasers from the tip of his guitar... Why wouldn't they have some fun with that?

Another thing to keep in mind is that there's almost no way the original designers or a designer from the home franchise of these costumes isn't consulted on the design of the costume, and even if they aren't, Toby Fox was consulted on the design of the Sans costume. I guess that he could have told them "the body is fine, let's just ignore the head", but the thing about costumes with a visible face barring costumes like K.K. that are intentionally designed to be funny, the character has a natural skin tone. There is no bone white for Mii fighters, and I don't think they would have ever expected us to do something like that.

I drew some ****ty mock-ups of the alternative Sans costumes that would have been "unfaithful"; let's say he gets the K.K. Slider treatment:

View attachment 269297


Horrifying. Also he kind of looks like Papyrus. That's not very representative of Sans. How about a hat:
View attachment 269298

Well, it's better! But maybe it could be confused for a Team Skull hat? Or to be more realistic, it's just the top of a skeleton head. At that point, you're really treating Sans like a meme - any skeleton could be Sans and Sans could be any skeleton.

Is this working against my point? Are you going to tell me "well since they could have done that it means that they put extra effort into Sans!" But that means that since they didn't do this for Black Knight, or Ray Mk-III or Samus, Meta Knight, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, those are all "premium" costumes with extra effort put into them.

Ultimately, the design choices don't really make a lot of sense. I don't think there's a pattern to it, they just do what they think looks right for whatever they're going for. Or maybe I can go for the low hanging fruit and say "I sure do remember when Sans put a Gaster Blaster on his arm and started blasting", which is the biggest inconsistency with his costume.

Look back at my first long post about costumes and why they don't have "premium" variants. Geno is not that important. If Sakurai thought in Smash 4 that Geno's costume was a good enough representation of him, then if he has no intention of making a fighter out of him, and has an intention to get the costume back, we're getting that costume. He's not getting upgraded, he never was getting upgraded, there is no "upgrade". I think the most likely scenario, which was dodged for some reason:

Hero revealed. Comes with his Dragon Quest costumes, and Chocobo. Then we would have gotten a Sans-esque fade to black -> Smash x Super Mario RPG -> Geno's original costume, Beware the Forest's Mushrooms track. He does some vaguely Geno things and that's it. Nothing would have changed, Sakurai would have shrugged and told us it's better than nothing. It still might happen, rude as that would feel, but I am so confident that we're not going to see an "upgraded" Geno costume I promise you I will buy the thing for you if he comes with some kind of new head to be more "faithful".

First thing that came to mind:

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

7 I expect more than a name, seeing as the ARMS reveal is making up for the lack of one from Feb-May, and will be releasing like, what, a week after the reveal? I don't even count the ARMS reveal as a June reveal.
7 should be mostly done (unless they explicitly say Corona is the cause of that delay). 8 they can at least name drop.

Indeed.

By making the first half pretty barebones? Unless you like AC, you only have XC1 re-releasing and a PMD remake (which is very hit-or-miss for most; I remember loving the original but found the demo to be very... eh) for the entire first half.

Those are pretty big things, especially 2/3rd and it's doing pretty well, to be honest. AC is still a major IP that people are constantly kept with. It's obvious it's not for everyone, and for whatever reason they weren't able to provide more content. I can't say why, but it's clear something is up.

Also a reminder that AC was *supposed* to be a 2019 game until it was delayed to March. Could you imagine how awful 2020 would start out if they didn't have AC hardcore carrying them?

Who knows why the delay happened. But it happened to work out. Tons of delays seem to be common latey.

I still don't understand this argument. There will be some overlap in consumers, sure, but if things are spaced out, fans will be excited for everything they plan to get. Don't dump release dates together because that's obviously dumb when you force people to make decisions between which game to buy (or even play if money isn't an issue), but revealing stuff together... idk, I don't see how it takes away from one or the other.

I see it as them trying to keep sales for their massive products important. You don't put up major new data. Smash in itself kills a lot of speculation on any other current product. It's well known[/quote]
There's a lot of overlap. They can't space things out easily. The fact one game is delayed makes it harder to do stuff. Look at the lack of BOTW2. There's clearly a lot of delayed products as is, we just barely know what is what.

All I know is the rest of 2020 is pretty much empty and March gave us ****all, so if June doesn't blow our minds, that's gonna be a really sad direct and we'll be left wondering what the hell happened. Obviously Corona exists, but that doesn't mean they can't show off anything they've been working on the last few years.

No, we got a lot of stuff to chew on. It's just not your cup of tea. It wasn't mine either, but it had a lot of content. Smash is the biggest one, which anything related to that tends to take away from anything else outside of Zelda/Mario/AC/major IP's. It's why showcasing during an Indie direct is a good way to kill anybody caring about the Indie products.

Nah, because then they'd have way less to show off in June, which is when Sony and Microsoft will surely do something crazy of their own as the two battle it out for next gen's top console. Nintendo obviously doesn't want to look like the little brother and is holding everything for June (another post anyone can SS and laugh at me in June if it turns out to be false). Just like with Geno's evidence pile, I think June's pile is starting to look similar in that it'll be big and chock-full of Mario stuff.

It's clear they have little to show, so it makes sense to space it out, yeah. Why the delays/lack of content? Nobody knows. We know some of the delays do overall exist with COVID19 in mind, especially as they're working from home computers(which slows down development a lot), but that just recently happened. It could be 3rd party licensing issues. Contrary to popular belief, they don't get along with all. XD

 

[Enigma735]

Welcome to the thread! Complimentary Geno Hat:
View attachment 269308


I'm at a 7. I think given all that's happened since June/July there's no doubt that we'll be getting something SMRPG related soon.


>Resident Evil 8/4 Remake leakers be like:
View attachment 269309

Thank you!!! And yeah I agree too

 

[Glitch-EGamer]

I got a leak of the next Smash Fighter! It's not Geno, but...

Spoiler: He dropped out so he could join the fight

 

[Polarthief]

I mean, really. If Ness wasn’t in Smash 64, would anyone really be going crazy for Earthbound reps? The answer is a cold hard no, no matter what type of hindsight bias you might have. Same for a lot of those other characters I listed.

The Mother fans would. They've been so ravenous that Reggie had to quit his job! /s

Those are pretty big things, especially 2/3rd and it's doing pretty well, to be honest. AC is still a major IP that people are constantly kept with. It's obvious it's not for everyone, and for whatever reason they weren't able to provide more content. I can't say why, but it's clear something is up.

AC is big, yes. People still don't shut up about it nearly a month later. PMD:DX is not. I haven't seen anyone talking about it past the first few days.
XC1 remaster, I'm unsure on. I get that XC is pretty popular, but idk if I'm underestimating it's popularity or not. I don't think it's that big a deal since it's just a remaster (an HD port with bonus content). If it was XC3, it'd be a bigger deal for sure.

Who knows why the delay happened. But it happened to work out. Tons of delays seem to be common latey.

Oh I wasn't saying it was a bad thing, but again, could you believe how bad this year would have started if it dropped last year instead? I wouldn't be surprised if part of the decision to delay it was also because of Pokemon and they didn't want to drop the two games too close to each other.

see it as them trying to keep sales for their massive products important. You don't put up major new data. Smash in itself kills a lot of speculation on any other current product. It's well known

Are you saying a reveal would kill other announcements? Idk, I think even Sora getting in Smash wouldn't topple a SMAS2* drop.
*Super Mario All-Stars.

There's a lot of overlap. They can't space things out easily. The fact one game is delayed makes it harder to do stuff. Look at the lack of BOTW2. There's clearly a lot of delayed products as is, we just barely know what is what.

We also don't know if BOTW2 is gonna be a 2020 game or not. If it is, I definitely expect an info dump in June. If it's not, we won't see it til ~September/October or so. I'm still in the belief that it was originally intended as the 2021 holiday title (possibly even a 2022 title) since 2019's E3 just said it's "in development".

No, we got a lot of stuff to chew on.

Eh, a lot of very specific stuff isn't "a lot to chew on". Giving us more general stuff (like Mario) is a bit more to chew.
AC is great don't get me wrong, but it's not everyone's cups of tea. XC and PMD are significantly less so than AC.

It's why showcasing during an Indie direct is a good way to kill anybody caring about the Indie products.

I wasn't even talking about the indie showcase; that's a completely separate thing, but IIRC, NONE of those games were even Nintendo-exclusives. Some were timed (and partially lied about like Exit the Gungeon being a timed exclusive for both PC and Switch), but none were just for Nintendo only, so... I don't consider that to be anything Nintendo can be like "LOOK WE HAVE GAMES!" about since every other platform gets them too. Just my two cents on cross-platform releases that they aren't really "news for Nintendo".

It's clear they have little to show, so it makes sense to space it out, yeah.

Are you saying they'll have little to show in June as well? Because I really don't feel like that's going to be the case.

I got a leak of the next Smash Fighter! It's not Geno, but...

Spoiler: He dropped out so he could join the fight

View attachment 269324

The true reveal I never knew I wanted.

 

[Powerman293]

All those nonexistent Switches since everywhere is sold out and not getting new units.

Mario's 35th anniversary, March direct had nothing, the insider rumors circling around; nah, June's gonna be big. Laugh at me post-direct if I'm wrong, I'm sticking to that.


TL;DR cuz there's a lot of rambling here:
- Corona isn't why March was small. Scroll up to my previous post for what they said in the mini direct.
- E3 canceled in mid-March. PAX East went off end of Feb start of March.
- Nintendo still had everything in mind regarding E3 still happening since the mini direct happened only ~3 weeks after E3 was canceled.
- Stuff is being saved for June. June direct will be big. May not necessarily be big for Smash, but it will be big in general.

We still have until the end of the year for Nintendo to ramp Switch production back up.

And I get that we can assume that this year was planned with no delays in mind, so I get that Nintendo could have SOMETHING. But there have been bunk years where Nintendo doesn't put out good stuff. 3DS in 2015 despite being mid lifecycle didn't have much from Nintendo asides from Major'as Mask.

 

[Polarthief]

But there have been bunk years where Nintendo doesn't put out good stuff. 3DS in 2015 despite being mid lifecycle didn't have much from Nintendo asides from Major'as Mask.

You could totally be right and I'll feel like the damn foolish idiot who was wrong yet again. It's just what I'm choosing to believe in unless I'm proven wrong in June.

 

[Droodle]

I thought they said that because of how late the mini was and for the lack of anything leading up to it. Corona or not, I don't see them having nothing to show for yet again in June.
Edit: I typed this before looking at the exact wording.



But they have the name of the character, just say who it is.



What was their reasoning for having very little 2020 content in September though, y'know? Honestly, I don't think it has as much to do with Corona as it does with them holding their cards until (what would have been) "E3"/June.

PS: Just looked again, here's their exact wording on Corona. Has more to do with release dates/"other information":
View attachment 269318

June's gonna be big, pandemic or no. Has to be.

June is likely going to be pretty big because Nintendo has literally no announced official games after XC:DE comes out late May (other then the ones like Bayo 3 or Metroid Prime that have no release date). But being "big" in a direct sense doesn't mean that it'll be a "big" direct in the Smash sense. Now Smash is nearing 2 years old, and while it is still huge; I think character reveals are no longer going to be the "beginning/ending surprise announcements", Smash isn't the end all be all of Nintendo's year, although (again) it is still huge.

That's one of the reasons why I would stop trying to go in with the expectation that 7+8 will be revealed alongside the ARMS rep. The ARMS rep in and of itself, will likely be a 3 min long segment with the reveal + gameplay. Chances are the same will be the case for 7, which would make Smash take up approximately 5-6 mins of the entire direct. I wouldn't expect 8 to be revealed at E3, even if the ARMS rep is introduced in an entirely separate Sakurai presentation. It's just not a good idea in general to do such a move with the COVID situation. Chances are the development of the ARMS fighter has severely slowed down because of it, although I would still expect it to be 80% finished. Fighter 7 is likely around halfway finished, but the changes will likely put them behind schedule. If Fighter 8 is in development, I would still expect it to be at the beginning stages. If they end up revealing Fighter 8, I can only expect it to be an ARMS-like reveal where they just state the series the character is from.

On top of just development, you also have to realize that animation companies that do the actual reveal trailers are also behind schedule/closed right now.

What does this have to do with Geno? Nothing really, he's still pretty likely to be character 7. E3 reveals always tend to be "big fan requests", or "big characters". He fits the criteria for E3 nicely. There are definitely a good amount of other possibilities, like:
- Waluigi
- Rex and Pyra
- Isaac
- Dante
- Phoenix Wright
- Lloyd/Yuri
- Heihachi
etc;

But that said, outside of maybe Lloyd, Yuri, Heihachi, and maybe Rex and Pyra; Geno definitely has the best case supporting him currently to be character 7. If he isn't 7, then it pretty likely that he's 8. If he's neither of those OR another Square rep is revealed, then I would say his chances fall down HARD.

 

[RingJ5]

At least Rayman has the excuse of being nearly impossible to make a faithful Mii costume out of. I'm going into some heavy speculation about Sakurai's philosophies and Ubisoft's policies, but I think it could just be that when Sakurai thinks Rayman, he thinks the very first Rayman game, but Ubisoft would prefer that any representation of Rayman is the modern Legends/Origins style. Often times people pin the blame on Sega for a similar reasoning behind why Sonic doesn't change color to pay homage to his friends or a powerup like Super Sonic, but other than that I can't think of any proof that a third party has outright kept their character out of the game over design conflict or that Sakurai has turned down a character for that reason. But, even Rayman's spirit is his modern design, despite the fact that many spirits aim for the oldest piece of artwork they could get a high quality scan of.


Sorry if I came off seeming to think that you believe Geno is only coming back as a costume - that's not the case at all. What I'm hoping you'll take away from this is that there is no "premium" costume, and if there were, Geno would not be getting one. Sans got an "insanely faithful costume" because how the hell would they botch it? I seriously want someone to come up with some way that Sans could get a costume and it not be faithful.

I understand that to you, "faithful" is the issue, but you need to understand that these costumes aren't all made to be faithful, some of them are made for this really rare concept called "fun".
View attachment 269292
Is this the best Nintendo could do to make K.K. Slider into a Mii hat? Of course not. They could have given him the full head treatment. But they didn't, because they didn't want to. It's funny to wear the K.K. Slider hoodie. This may not be the entire reason, but it's an attempt to illustrate the point that a decision is made by someone on how to represent the character, and sometimes they go with a comical approach. I mean, the full costume has K.K. Slider shooting lasers from the tip of his guitar... Why wouldn't they have some fun with that?

Another thing to keep in mind is that there's almost no way the original designers or a designer from the home franchise of these costumes isn't consulted on the design of the costume, and even if they aren't, Toby Fox was consulted on the design of the Sans costume. I guess that he could have told them "the body is fine, let's just ignore the head", but the thing about costumes with a visible face barring costumes like K.K. that are intentionally designed to be funny, the character has a natural skin tone. There is no bone white for Mii fighters, and I don't think they would have ever expected us to do something like that.

I drew some ****ty mock-ups of the alternative Sans costumes that would have been "unfaithful"; let's say he gets the K.K. Slider treatment:

View attachment 269297


Horrifying. Also he kind of looks like Papyrus. That's not very representative of Sans. How about a hat:
View attachment 269298

Well, it's better! But maybe it could be confused for a Team Skull hat? Or to be more realistic, it's just the top of a skeleton head. At that point, you're really treating Sans like a meme - any skeleton could be Sans and Sans could be any skeleton.

Is this working against my point? Are you going to tell me "well since they could have done that it means that they put extra effort into Sans!" But that means that since they didn't do this for Black Knight, or Ray Mk-III or Samus, Meta Knight, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl, those are all "premium" costumes with extra effort put into them.

Ultimately, the design choices don't really make a lot of sense. I don't think there's a pattern to it, they just do what they think looks right for whatever they're going for. Or maybe I can go for the low hanging fruit and say "I sure do remember when Sans put a Gaster Blaster on his arm and started blasting", which is the biggest inconsistency with his costume.

Look back at my first long post about costumes and why they don't have "premium" variants. Geno is not that important. If Sakurai thought in Smash 4 that Geno's costume was a good enough representation of him, then if he has no intention of making a fighter out of him, and has an intention to get the costume back, we're getting that costume. He's not getting upgraded, he never was getting upgraded, there is no "upgrade". I think the most likely scenario, which was dodged for some reason:

Hero revealed. Comes with his Dragon Quest costumes, and Chocobo. Then we would have gotten a Sans-esque fade to black -> Smash x Super Mario RPG -> Geno's original costume, Beware the Forest's Mushrooms track. He does some vaguely Geno things and that's it. Nothing would have changed, Sakurai would have shrugged and told us it's better than nothing. It still might happen, rude as that would feel, but I am so confident that we're not going to see an "upgraded" Geno costume I promise you I will buy the thing for you if he comes with some kind of new head to be more "faithful".

See, the issue here is that I’m arguing from a point of “the list is real” and you’re arguing from a point of “the list is fake, or at least has fake information.”

Consider that, at one point, FP1 was supposed to be the end. No more DLC after #5, so there was literally no chance for Geno to get in as a full character until more DLC was decided upon, which it thankfully was. In that light, I could easily see them pulling out all the stops for his costume’s return if there genuinely wasn’t the option at the time to make him fully playable.

The list in question implies that not only was a Geno costume planned for Wave #2, but two more SMRPG costumes were as well. I can’t see a scenario where they went that far out for Geno, basically as far as they could possibly go without making him a character because Squere had the bigger fish that they wanted to fry with their one available chance at the time, yet they didn’t update the Geno costume’s design in literally any way.

More to the point, however, is the inclusion of songs to begin with. You appear to agree that if Geno were to only get a costume, he’d at least get a song included. So, taking that into consideration, let’s take a second to look at how that would look in comparison with the other characters that get songs:

Sans: A full-body costume that completely hides the Mii, to the point where a casual viewer could unironically mistake it for the real thing at first.
Cuphead: A full-body costume that completely hides the Mii, to the point where a casual viewer could unironically mistake it for the real thing at first.
Geno: A costume that does not hide the Mii at all, and looks like a Mii wearing a a Geno costume.

To me, that doesn’t quite add up, especially considering that so far the only DLC costumes to entirely obscure the Mii’s head(and possibly the only ones overall, not sure about base-game) are the ones that come with songs. Geno’s costume being the odd one out in that scenario out of laziness/spite just doesn’t make sense to me.

But just for a second, let’s say it does, and that they really didn’t give enough of a **** about Geno to update his design at all. However. even if you take design out of the equation entirely, none of the costumes on The List had songs to begin with.

Sans was missing from said list, yet he had a song. The only other applicable costume that should have had a song at that point was Geno, who was also missing. Songs themselves would require different “packages” in comparison to basic costumes, regardless of costume design. Thus, in other words, the theory still works even if you’re adamant that “premium” costumes don’t actually mean “full-body costumes with songs”.

But again, not if you don’t believe that the Mallow/Smithy leak was real to begin with, then the whole argument is moot anyway. I’ll say again, though, that the list was shared to others quite a while(around June/July, if I’m remembering correctly) before PG got to it, though, so it bring bait for him still seems particularly unlikely to me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

AC is big, yes. People still don't shut up about it nearly a month later. PMD:DX is not. I haven't seen anyone talking about it past the first few days.
XC1 remaster, I'm unsure on. I get that XC is pretty popular, but idk if I'm underestimating it's popularity or not. I don't think it's that big a deal since it's just a remaster (an HD port with bonus content). If it was XC3, it'd be a bigger deal for sure.

Pokemon = Big. That's why it makes sense for Nintendo to use it as a major seller. Also, they did give us tons of other Pokemon information to chew on at the time.

Oh I wasn't saying it was a bad thing, but again, could you believe how bad this year would have started if it dropped last year instead? I wouldn't be surprised if part of the decision to delay it was also because of Pokemon and they didn't want to drop the two games too close to each other.

It makes sense. Two giant IP's would clash in sales. Gotta spread it out, etc.

Are you saying a reveal would kill other announcements? Idk, I think even Sora getting in Smash wouldn't topple a SMAS2* drop.
*Super Mario All-Stars.

Oh, Sora in Smash absolutely would topple it. The Smash Effect, if you will, is huge as hell. It's literally their biggest IP overall. Not in terms of sales, but in terms of fan reception.

We also don't know if BOTW2 is gonna be a 2020 game or not. If it is, I definitely expect an info dump in June. If it's not, we won't see it til ~September/October or so. I'm still in the belief that it was originally intended as the 2021 holiday title (possibly even a 2022 title) since 2019's E3 just said it's "in development".

Yeah, I think 2021 was always intended as well.

Eh, a lot of very specific stuff isn't "a lot to chew on". Giving us more general stuff (like Mario) is a bit more to chew.
AC is great don't get me wrong, but it's not everyone's cups of tea. XC and PMD are significantly less so than AC.

Tons of product, which they gave, is a lot to chew on. As noted above, the fan reception depends upon the series. Problem is they aren't good at being able to hold fanbases like they used to.

I wasn't even talking about the indie showcase; that's a completely separate thing, but IIRC, NONE of those games were even Nintendo-exclusives. Some were timed (and partially lied about like Exit the Gungeon being a timed exclusive for both PC and Switch), but none were just for Nintendo only, so... I don't consider that to be anything Nintendo can be like "LOOK WE HAVE GAMES!" about since every other platform gets them too. Just my two cents on cross-platform releases that they aren't really "news for Nintendo".

I'd say the reveal of different products will get different reactions depending upon the product itself. It doesn't matter if it's a timed exclusive so much is if it's something a ton of people care about. Barely anyone cared about anything that wasn't Smash and Xenoblade at best. PMD wasn't related to that direct, mind you. That was shown off beforehand. Though it was neat information.

Are you saying they'll have little to show in June as well? Because I really don't feel like that's going to be the case.

To be honest, I think it's going to be a bit less than we're expecting. I'm sure more might've been planned, but we know they actually are taking longer to do projects. Also, worth noting Sakurai said he had trouble meeting with some developers due to COVID19, so that kind of confirms the lack of Smash news or that expecting a ton is pretttttty unlikely. That's part of why I think one more character in June is the most we'll get.

 

[Firox]

We already have so many characters that have no business being in Smash

-Dr Mario
-Piranha Plant
-Roy
-Pichu
-Wolf
-Richter
-Ness and Lucas
-Young Link and Toon Link

Um, what metric are you using to decide which characters "have no business being in Smash"? The clones/semi-clones I might be able to understand, but the rest? As much as I'd like to agree with you about Plant, even that one has a unique and interesting moveset. And Wolf? Come on now. He's an epic anti-hero/villain for the Starfox franchise and a fan favorite (no, don't you even think of calling him a clone of Fox. Only people that are totally ignorant of his playstyle would say that). As for Ness, he was a lot more relevant in 1999 (when he debuted in the original Smash) than he'd probably be in 2020, plus, again, he's unique and belongs to one of the best cult classic RPG's of our time. In the end, Smash is a collection of historical/promotional picks at the behest of Sakurai and Nintendo. We don't have to like it, but what other justification is there?

 

[Let Geno Smash]

We already have so many characters that have no business being in Smash

-Dr Mario
-Piranha Plant
-Roy
-Pichu
-Wolf
-Richter
-Ness and Lucas
-Young Link and Toon Link

maybe even so more than that

Not trying to dab on any of these characters, almost more half of them I actually really enjoy and i’m glad they’re in. My point is that the Smash fanbase is always going to make rules about what characters can’t get in, and then when said characters gets in, they’ll make up new rules as to why that character was a necessary inclusion.

I mean, really. If Ness wasn’t in Smash 64, would anyone really be going crazy for Earthbound reps? The answer is a cold hard no, no matter what type of hindsight bias you might have. Same for a lot of those other characters I listed.

Urban Champion was a classic NES game, but I don’t see anyone inching for the “Urban Champion” to join Smash. But if he WAS in, we’d be seeing all of that “he’s based and he was a lock!!!1” hilarious nonsense.

Mark my words, we’ll see it for Geno too. Some of his biggest detractors will hide their tail between their legs, pretend they never ever doubted him, and sing his praises while bowing down to their newly built Geno altar.

I’m saying this because I think some of you guys get way too ...affected by the detractors and you try to understand why they are the way they are, even though it’s quite simple, they’re trolls but they also want fake internet brownie points, likely due to a lack of attention in real life, because otherwise I fail to understand why they have such a god complex. It’s basic common sense human psychology.

And i’ll fully admit i’ve “taken the bait” in the past before as well, but as I have distanced myself from toxic smash discussion centres, i’ve been much better off for it.

Because believe me, it’s not going to stop at Geno. Once Geno is in, there will be multiple other popular requests that attract the Smash trolls like a magnet. It is inevitable.

Thanks for watching my ted talk.

Don't forget K.Rool and Banjo

See, the issue here is that I’m arguing from a point of “the list is real” and you’re arguing from a point of “the list is fake, or at least has fake information.”

Consider that, at one point, FP1 was supposed to be the end. No more DLC after #5, so there was literally no chance for Geno to get in as a full character until more DLC was decided upon, which it thankfully was. In that light, I could easily see them pulling out all the stops for his costume’s return if there genuinely wasn’t the option at the time to make him fully playable.

The list in question implies that not only was a Geno costume planned for Wave #2, but two more SMRPG costumes were as well. I can’t see a scenario where they went that far out for Geno, basically as far as they could possibly go without making him a character because Squere had the bigger fish that they wanted to fry with their one available chance at the time, yet they didn’t update the Geno costume’s design in literally any way.

More to the point, however, is the inclusion of songs to begin with. You appear to agree that if Geno was to only get a costume, he’d at least get a song included. So, taking that into consideration, let’s take a second to look at how that would look in comparison with the other characters that get songs:

Sans: A full-body costume that completely hides the Mii.
Cuphead: A full-body costume that completely hides the Mii.
Geno: A costume that does not hide the Mii at all.

To me, that doesn’t quite add up, especially considering that so far the only DLC fighters to entirely obscure the Mii’s face(and possibly the only ones overall, not sure about base-game) are the ones that come with songs. Geno’s costume being the odd one out in that scenario out of laziness/spite just doesn’t make sense to me.

But just for a second, let’s say it does, and that they really didn’t give enough of a **** about Geno to update his design at all. However. even if you take design out of the equation entirely, none of the costumes on The List had songs to begin with.

Sans was missing from said list, yet he had a song. The only other applicable costume that should have had a song at that point was Geno, who was also missing. Songs themselves would require different “packages” in comparison to basic costumes, regardless of costume design. Thus, in other words, the theory still works even if you’re adamant that “premium” costumes don’t actually mean “full-body costumes with songs”.

But again, not if you don’t believe that the Mallow/Smithy leak was real to begin with, then the whole argument is moot anyway. I’ll say again, though, that the list was shared to others quite a while(around June/July, if I’m remembering correctly) before PG got to it, though, so it bring bait for him still seems particularly unlikely to me.

Prove me if i wrong, but i think the mii list with Chocobo, Mallow and Smithy apparear in June 19th, 2019

 

[Vector Victor]

Honestly, Nintendo kind of owes Xenoblade at this point, what with the whole 'Sorry, Rex's game was too late to add him to the roster. By the way, here's Byleth.' That was probably one of the things that irked me the most out of that episode, and I'm not even a Xenoblade fan.

I'd like them to get a character, but hopefully Geno is revealed first, then them.

 

[Loliko YnT]

It's all fun and games until the Zoomers come in and take everything as life or death. Clout may as well be considered cancer at this point because anyone who looks for it might as well have it.

View attachment 269310

Pretty ironic for this guy to put Geno down , he litteraly has GAZ in his username !

---

More seriously tho , wanted to share that fan-art.

pic.twitter.com/lauNW862hK

— matt2san is off to the stars! (archived) (@matt2san) April 15, 2020

Now I'm picturing the little star piloting Geno like a giant mech.

 

[MisterMike]

Honestly, the fact they advertised them as characters from ARMS 1 and used the logo? I don't see it having a chance of happening that it's anyone but an ARMS 1 character. It might not be an AT or Spirit, and it's most likely Spring Man and/or Ribbon Girl due to being the core mascots(the game doesn't really have a protagonist exactly), but it could be anyone among the listed picture, by their own admission.

Anyone? Or... EVERYONE.

I got a leak of the next Smash Fighter! It's not Geno, but...

Spoiler: He dropped out so he could join the fight

View attachment 269324

BERNIE ASKS FOR YOUR COOPERATION!

Pretty ironic for this guy to put Geno down , he litteraly has GAZ in his username !

---

More seriously tho , wanted to share that fan-art.

pic.twitter.com/lauNW862hK

— matt2san is off to the stars! (archived) (@matt2san) April 15, 2020

Now I'm picturing the little star piloting Geno like a giant mech.

Super Mario RPG is Eva if Shinji wasn't a ***** and he teamed up with an italian man, a raincloud, godzilla, and a Disney princess.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Anyone? Or... EVERYONE.

I honestly think we're getting 4 alts and the rest will be in as Spirits. As well as extra events to get the rest of the ARMS' spirits alone, meaning you don't need to wait for them to show up on the Spirit Board.

Mind you, I don't expect a new AT either, though they could put one in to show up randomly. Spring Man would be disabled when the ARMS' character is played as, depending if he's playable or not. Who knows.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Three reveals in June would not be weird especially in the light that Joker was revealed about 4 1/2 months before they were released. 6 released in June, 7 probably August, 8 probably October. Not too much of a hassle. I've talked about it before but 3 or more at E3 is actually pretty common, especially when another character was teased months before. E3 2006, 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2018 all technically had triple reveals so last year's double was actually an outlier.

 

[Let Geno Smash]

Three reveals in June would not be weird especially in the light that Joker was revealed about 4 1/2 months before they were released. 6 released in June, 7 probably August, 8 probably October. Not too much of a hassle. I've talked about it before but 3 or more at E3 is actually pretty common, especially when another character was teased months before. E3 2006, 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2018 all technically had triple reveals so last year's double was actually an outlier.

But the context us different, the mayority of the cases in which we get 3 Reveals at E3 were in base roster,now we are in a 2nd (And Most likely last) wave of DLC. Well, let's pretend we will have HALF the DLC the same day since it should last 2 YEARS. Let's say they are MinMin, Geno and Crash (which very possibly ends up happening), Min min comes out in June as a hero that came out in July, Geno is a Shadowdrop of the September direct as Banjo (By the way, if we have 3 revelations in June I doubt much that we have one in September) and Crash in October or November as Terry. That means we won't have any new revelations until the VGA 2020 (if this year nintendo decides to show a new character and they're embarrassed to announce an Eighth Fire Emblem character made just to sell three houses, it's worth mentioning that I don't hate Byleth, I simply resent the context in which I enter) or in the case that not UNTIL JANUARY OR FEBRUARY 2021, it would be 6 months without new characters, I prefer Arms and Geno at E3 and crash in September. Or vice versa

 

[Polarthief]

Geno definitely has the best case supporting him currently to be character 7. If he isn't 7, then it pretty likely that he's 8. If he's neither of those OR another Square rep is revealed, then I would say his chances fall down HARD.

Yeah, but still not 100% no if he misses 7 and 8.

Pokemon = Big.

Pokemon, yes. Spin-off Pokemon games? Ehhh...

Oh, Sora in Smash absolutely would topple it. The Smash Effect, if you will, is huge as hell. It's literally their biggest IP overall. Not in terms of sales, but in terms of fan reception.

Oh well yeah in fan reception, sure. I wasn't talking about that specifically though. It's a whole thing; reception's part of it, but the most important thing (to Nintendo) is sales. Would a Smash reveal affect sales of an expected-to-sell-like-hotcakes game? I don't think it would, especially not something too-huge-to-fail like non-spinoff Mario games.

To be honest, I think it's going to be a bit less than we're expecting. I'm sure more might've been planned, but we know they actually are taking longer to do projects. Also, worth noting Sakurai said he had trouble meeting with some developers due to COVID19, so that kind of confirms the lack of Smash news or that expecting a ton is pretttttty unlikely. That's part of why I think one more character in June is the most we'll get.

Just curious, what do you think overall would be what we're getting? I'm personally expecting:

• ARMS +1 reveal for Smash: Not expecting +2, but I'd like to see it; 100% EXPECTING #7 shown off though. Also side-note: what if the ARMS and #7 reveals are linked like Kencineroar? Like after Spring Man/whoever throws a punch, you see a rocket fist punching him/whoever, and Geno's revealed? I doubt it'll happen since they're both DLC, but I'd welcome something different like that (plus only 1 trailer needed for 2 reveals).
• BOTW2 news of some sort: Doesn't have to be a lot if it's not releasing this year, but does has to be a lot if it's the holiday 2020 title since we know virtually nothing.
• Mario because 35th anniversary: Likely the rumors we've heard about SMAS2 or some kind of remaster (as in HD/upscaled port). I doubt anything will be a remake. Hoping for PM64/TTYD remasters, or even just ports at this point.
  • Paper Mario 3 (6): This one is totally in the air; not expecting it, but if it's actually real, it'll be shown off in June.
  • Metroid 5: Same as PM3. If it happens, awesome. Also despite not being tied to Mario, I put this here because it's somewhat relevant/tied to PM3.
• The holiday 2020 title, if it's not BOTW2: I could potentially see it being PM3 and Metroid 5 (yes, both being the holiday titleS) or even SMAS2 though.
• Likely one more secret thing no one expected. Could be the Switch Pro? Not a new console obviously, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to push that this year.

Regarding Sakurai, he could still say the name of another reveal, and say due to Corona, they'll be pushed back a bit more, etc. Also they could push #9 to #8 instead, especially if they're more local characters (i.e., Japanese). Hell they could have even done some kind of at-home presentation because, given the circumstances, I'm sure even grumpy businessmen who hold our favorite characters hostage would understand the situation.

I honestly think we're getting 4 alts and the rest will be in as Spirits. As well as extra events to get the rest of the ARMS' spirits alone, meaning you don't need to wait for them to show up on the Spirit Board.

That'd be cool, but poor Twintelle just gets cucked over I think it'd be cooler if they upgraded all 5 of the Spirits, and then SM and RG (because they're mascots) and MM (because she's the #1 most popular) all got an alt.
...or just add 3 more characters because screw it, why not, y'know? Helix (because he's weird AF), Dr. Coyle (+1 villain and a lot of people seem to want her), and virtually anyone else.

Mind you, I don't expect a new AT either, though they could put one in to show up randomly. Spring Man would be disabled when the ARMS' character is played as, depending if he's playable or not. Who knows.

That or they could swap him out for Springtron.

 

[StarLight42]

Um, what metric are you using to decide which characters "have no business being in Smash"? The clones/semi-clones I might be able to understand, but the rest? As much as I'd like to agree with you about Plant, even that one has a unique and interesting moveset. And Wolf? Come on now. He's an epic anti-hero/villain for the Starfox franchise and a fan favorite (no, don't you even think of calling him a clone of Fox. Only people that are totally ignorant of his playstyle would say that). As for Ness, he was a lot more relevant in 1999 (when he debuted in the original Smash) than he'd probably be in 2020, plus, again, he's unique and belongs to one of the best cult classic RPG's of our time. In the end, Smash is a collection of historical/promotional picks at the behest of Sakurai and Nintendo. We don't have to like it, but what other justification is there?

lol. I dunno if you were around for the Brawl days but it seems like you wern’t. Wolf was seriously not well received especially when he was like the last character revealed for Brawl, nowadays he’s beloved but again that’s likely a hindsight thing, even though he’s shaped up to be a great character in Smash. I highly doubt he’d be requested much at all if he wasn’t in Brawl especially considering the piss poor state of the Star Fox series (which atomic bombed with SF Zero and is likely only staying relevant because of Smash itself). Paint the picture however you want to, but at the end of the day, Starfox is extremely lucky to have 3 reps in the state that the series is in right now. I actually remember most people asking for Krystal in the Brawl phase tbh

Earthbound/Mother is lucky to have even one.

I’m not saying there is any justification towards who and who isn’t added. You’re kind of missing the point. I’m saying that because of characters like this being in the game, there really is no metric towards who can and can’t be in, aside from direct deconfirms like Goku and Superman or whatever

I mean, as “unimportant” and “side character” as Geno is, at least he’s in a game that contains the title of the most popular video game character in history. Again, none of this matters, but if we’re pretending it does, Geno actually has more reason to be added than a lot of characters already in / I see requested. SMRPG sold 2 million+ copies regardless if Geno was the main character in that game or not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, but still not 100% no if he misses 7 and 8.

Hard to say.

Pokemon, yes. Spin-off Pokemon games? Ehhh...

It's actually the most popular spin-off Pokemon game, and widely well known. There's a reason people clamor for a remake of Snap, new Stadium-like games, etc. Namely the notable ones. Stuff like Ranger isn't cared about as much due to completely different gameplay from the norm. Snap was lucky in that people just love the idea of taking screenshots.

Oh well yeah in fan reception, sure. I wasn't talking about that specifically though. It's a whole thing; reception's part of it, but the most important thing (to Nintendo) is sales. Would a Smash reveal affect sales of an expected-to-sell-like-hotcakes game? I don't think it would, especially not something too-huge-to-fail like non-spinoff Mario games.

Problem is? People don't care about other content and scream and moan when Smash isn't there. So it does, but not severely. They want to keep the spotlight on specific content.

Just curious, what do you think overall would be what we're getting? I'm personally expecting:

• ARMS +1 reveal for Smash: Not expecting +2, but I'd like to see it; 100% EXPECTING #7 shown off though. Also side-note: what if the ARMS and #7 reveals are linked like Kencineroar? Like after Spring Man/whoever throws a punch, you see a rocket fist punching him/whoever, and Geno's revealed? I doubt it'll happen since they're both DLC, but I'd welcome something different like that (plus only 1 trailer needed for 2 reveals).
• BOTW2 news of some sort: Doesn't have to be a lot if it's not releasing this year, but does has to be a lot if it's the holiday 2020 title since we know virtually nothing.
• Mario because 35th anniversary: Likely the rumors we've heard about SMAS2 or some kind of remaster (as in HD/upscaled port). I doubt anything will be a remake. Hoping for PM64/TTYD remasters, or even just ports at this point.
  • Paper Mario 3 (6): This one is totally in the air; not expecting it, but if it's actually real, it'll be shown off in June.
  • Metroid 5: Same as PM3. If it happens, awesome. Also despite not being tied to Mario, I put this here because it's somewhat relevant/tied to PM3.
• The holiday 2020 title, if it's not BOTW2: I could potentially see it being PM3 and Metroid 5 (yes, both being the holiday titleS) or even SMAS2 though.
• Likely one more secret thing no one expected. Could be the Switch Pro? Not a new console obviously, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to push that this year.

I think that's a bit much. I doubt that much big stuff as is. Probably no Metroid 5, or a very light "this is happening" thing at most. A lot of it will be smaller series.

Regarding Sakurai, he could still say the name of another reveal, and say due to Corona, they'll be pushed back a bit more, etc. Also they could push #9 to #8 instead, especially if they're more local characters (i.e., Japanese). Hell they could have even done some kind of at-home presentation because, given the circumstances, I'm sure even grumpy businessmen who hold our favorite characters hostage would understand the situation.

Considering he's trying to make 6 characters last for 2 years, it's likely to spread out more. So I'm still sticking with 1 more character. Could be wrong, of course.

That'd be cool, but poor Twintelle just gets cucked over I think it'd be cooler if they upgraded all 5 of the Spirits, and then SM and RG (because they're mascots) and MM (because she's the #1 most popular) all got an alt.
...or just add 3 more characters because screw it, why not, y'know? Helix (because he's weird AF), Dr. Coyle (+1 villain and a lot of people seem to want her), and virtually anyone else.

This is why I want an Echo Pass. Won't work for all ARMS' characters, though. It's sad for Twintella, but I have no faith in her. Being popular isn't enough when it comes to the core representation of the game. Though I don't think it's some silly reasons like her not using her arm-and-fists, but she's meant to be a unique take on it, so it's not entirely off from what they may be going for.

That or they could swap him out for Springtron.

AT's take a lot of extra work. Springtron at most could show up instead of Spring Man if an ARMS character is being played, but I don't see the original AT having a chance of being actually replaced. Swap out during current battles, sure. I also think Springtron is a likely alt.

 

[Polarthief]

I think that's a bit much. I doubt that much big stuff as is. Probably no Metroid 5, or a very light "this is happening" thing at most. A lot of it will be smaller series.

Is it really though? Half of it is remasters/upscaled ports, 1 of it is literally just expected by everyone (at minimum, ARMS+#7 reveal), BOTW2 news is a safe bet (even if it's just a "hey this game is still in development, here's a tiny amount of info". We still don't know the holiday title, so yeah I'd say that's another safe guess, and they do like to surprise us from time to time.

Considering he's trying to make 6 characters last for 2 years, it's likely to spread out more. So I'm still sticking with 1 more character. Could be wrong, of course.

True, but by revealing more sooner, I feel like you keep people invested, especially if you just namedrop one (maybe in a trailer) as that gives them time to speculate on what their moveset will be or how they'll play, whereas the ARMS reveal is completely overshadowed by "who is it?". No one's even talking about playstyle and whatnot.

This is why I want an Echo Pass.

Or just bonuses that are echoes, but yeah. I do think it's silly to be like "HERE'S THE TERM FOR CLONE CHARACTERS" and then give us 3 echoes in base and that's it. Almost (but not quite) as bad as Super Mario Maker 2 saying SM3DW is part of the "extra game styleS", and there still hasn't been a second one yet. It's like Nintendo doesn't know that making something plural when you only have 1 of it, makes people angry when you don't add another.

AT's take a lot of extra work. Springtron at most could show up instead of Spring Man if an ARMS character is being played, but I don't see the original AT having a chance of being actually replaced. Swap out during current battles, sure. I also think Springtron is a likely alt.

Would reskinning the AT be that bad though? Adding a whole brand new AT is one thing, but reskinning/voicing it, idk if it's take nearly as much time, especially since they're virtually the same character, just one's flesh and one's metal.

 

[Firox]

lol. I dunno if you were around for the Brawl days but it seems like you wern’t. Wolf was seriously not well received especially when he was like the last character revealed for Brawl, nowadays he’s beloved but again that’s likely a hindsight thing, even though he’s shaped up to be a great character in Smash. I highly doubt he’d be requested much at all if he wasn’t in Brawl especially considering the piss poor state of the Star Fox series (which atomic bombed with SF Zero and is likely only staying relevant because of Smash itself). Paint the picture however you want to, but at the end of the day, Starfox is extremely lucky to have 3 reps in the state that the series is in right now. I actually remember most people asking for Krystal in the Brawl phase tbh

LOL I've been with Smash since the beginning, so definitely during Brawl. I admit that I wasn't a regular of sites like this at the time, but I, for one, was ELATED to see Wolf since he was literally my favorite character from the Star Fox franchise. If he wasn't considered well received by the general "fan base" I suppose I can understand that, but to be fair, I feel that Wolf falls into the same category as Joker, Greninja, Pacman, ZSS, etc. in the sense that nobody was really campaigning for him yet he still ended up as a character that grew on people. As for the current state of the SF franchise, yeah, it's a dumpster fire, but you have to remember that Star Fox 64 was arguably the heyday of the franchise and it still held historical relevance to Nintendo. Even if Star Fox went on to suck rocket ships with Zero, the franchise was still somewhat respectable back in 2008.

Earthbound/Mother is lucky to have even one.

I'll give you that.

I’m not saying there is any justification towards who and who isn’t added. You’re kind of missing the point. I’m saying that because of characters like this being in the game, there really is no metric towards who can and can’t be in, aside from direct deconfirms like Goku and Superman or whatever

I mean, as “unimportant” and “side character” as Geno is, at least he’s in a game that contains the title of the most popular video game character in history. Again, none of this matters, but if we’re pretending it does, Geno actually has more reason to be added than a lot of characters already in / I see requested. SMRPG sold 2 million+ copies regardless if Geno was the main character in that game or not.

Ah, yeah, I realized after my post that I kinda read yours out of context. I get what you're saying. You can't argue against Geno's relevance and then claim that stuff like PP, Duck Hunt or WFT are any more justified.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Is it really though? Half of it is remasters/upscaled ports, 1 of it is literally just expected by everyone (at minimum, ARMS+#7 reveal), BOTW2 news is a safe bet (even if it's just a "hey this game is still in development, here's a tiny amount of info". We still don't know the holiday title, so yeah I'd say that's another safe guess, and they do like to surprise us from time to time.

Considering development is slowed down with everybody at home, I'd say it's a lot. I'm expecting a somewhat smaller one.

True, but by revealing more sooner, I feel like you keep people invested, especially if you just namedrop one (maybe in a trailer) as that gives them time to speculate on what their moveset will be or how they'll play, whereas the ARMS reveal is completely overshadowed by "who is it?". No one's even talking about playstyle and whatnot.

Problem is that one character keeps them invested just fine. ARMS didn't stop getting conversation. They could also use that time to give a new demo/download. For instance, Geno announced and Super Mario RPG downloaded for Switch. This keeps people happy. You don't need two names to do that. That, and they will be delayed in character creation, so announcing two is unlikely to be among their schedule. Even in the case of Hero, Banjo-Kazooie came out significantly later, and do keep in mind that pass was smaller and they actually weren't doing it over a single year. There's more to space out.

Or just bonuses that are echoes, but yeah. I do think it's silly to be like "HERE'S THE TERM FOR CLONE CHARACTERS" and then give us 3 echoes in base and that's it. Almost (but not quite) as bad as Super Mario Maker 2 saying SM3DW is part of the "extra game styleS", and there still hasn't been a second one yet. It's like Nintendo doesn't know that making something plural when you only have 1 of it, makes people angry when you don't add another.

Either way, yeah. Bonus characters in general, or a bonus pass, etc. I think more will come down the line.

Would reskinning the AT be that bad though? Adding a whole brand new AT is one thing, but reskinning/voicing it, idk if it's take nearly as much time, especially since they're virtually the same character, just one's flesh and one's metal.

That's actually a lot of work. Spring Man has many animations and you need to make sure the skin never once breaks. Basically, you've seen "play as" mods and all? Most of them are awful and break easily. They have to take a long time to make sure there's no weird graphical glitches and so on. And that's a skin alone. That's ignoring any extra details.

Also, hiring a new voice actor for that alone is extra money unneeded. At that point, it's in their best interest and development time to put a single line of code to disable Spring Man if you play as ARMS character. You could also say they prefer shortcuts in these cases.