Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[RingJ5]

Sure. SE aren't idiots. They could've done that after negotiating to use Geno as playable. Works perfectly if so.

Or they just decided to renegotiate to release the costume later. Either, or.

They clearly did go that far. Was it the sole reason? Who knows. But we see pure DQ. We see that they need it to sell. They correlate pretty well. There might be more to it than that, sure, but we have zero evidence to suggest otherwise.

The actual question is what's going on with the costumes, not the fact they wanted DQ to sell in the West. Pass 2 was not negotiated for at the same time as Pass 1. It's quite possible they figured out something else with Geno and Chocobo. We have multiple possibilities, at least for Geno;

1. Costume was scrapped in the first place, and they only got the Spirit.
   1. The costume was scrapped originally, but negotiated for later.
2. Geno actually is going to become playable, something they decided later on, which would also lead to a scrapped costume.
3. The costume is fully there and they intended it with Hero, but plans changed due to an agreement among all three parties to focus on a series that actually needs it right now to sell. Likewise, another SE character is coming for both costumes.

Chocobo is highly unlikely to be playable, so it doesn't fit the pieces too well. Could've been scrapped altogether for all we know. Could come with Geno or another SE costume. So mostly 1, 1.1, and 3 is possible for this one.

“We have zero evidence to suggest otherwise.”

But we also have exactly zero evidence to suggest what you’re suggesting, that they removed the costumes solely because DQ needed the extra focus. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Cloud came with the Geno costume in Smash 4, I don't think they care about keeping their franchises separate.

Final Fantasy didn't need promoting in the West.

Dragon Quest did.

Different situations altogether.

That's why you shouldn't expect any other presentation to be hard focused on one franchise to begin with. They're all different situations from DQ, which needed it(especially when SE says it themselves, it's pretty clear part of why it happened, if not the full reason).

“We have zero evidence to suggest otherwise.”

But we also have exactly zero evidence to suggest what you’re suggesting, that they removed the costumes solely because DQ needed the extra focus. Correlation does not equal causation.

That's not the entirety of what I said. You're cherrypicking.

What I said was Geno's costume was not in the specific presentation(we don't know what happened to the costume) because it takes away from the DQ focus, which has a lot of evidence to why it was a sole focus.

There's literally no evidence to suggest Geno and Chocobo can't be in any other presentation. Just like they could've been scrapped due to negotiations that fell through in the first place. The only thing we know is that they weren't in a presentation dedicated to Dragon Quest only. There's also good reasons to believe, due to knowing they already started negotiating before November(as the timing of saying characters were worked on was during November too at the very least), that it was actually moved to another character presentation. Assuming Geno isn't playable. And this assumes the costume actually was negotiated for and succeeded in getting it back. Changing plans happens. Joker's reveal was changed from its intention, so we know for a fact things change before the presentation itself.

 

[Lord Woomy]

All this "Square demanded DQ!" all just feels like pointless "what ifs" that have no evidence and are, at best, backed up by circumstantial evidence. It's just casting doubt just for casting doubt's sake just to make people's already decided upon assumptions of what's coming and what isn't feel more justified. I feel like it's just some attempt to put us in our place or something after we showed a smidge of optimism.

 

[YsDisciple]

I apologize in advance if part of the following post will read like an umpteenth copy. Leaks and rumors aside (well... maybe they have pushed my hopes on him more), the main reason why I feel that Geno is very likely coming to Ultimate (now within the Fighters Pass Vol. 2) has always been its very self; the fact that he is a toy within the game he originated from, AND that said toy is possessed by a star spirit. On top of that, the mere fact that a little over 20 years have passed since Super Mario RPG first released on the SNES, and no direct sequel ever came after it, is a fate akin to most toys children get as presents, play a lot with them the first couple of days or months, and as most children grow, at the same time they outgrow most of their toys. Later when they find themselves within the midst of adulthood, nostalgia kicks in and they reminisce on those old toys they used to play with. THIS, this is what speaks volumes to me that Geno is very likely coming to Ultimate. Heck, Geno pretty much has starred his own untold Toy Story all these years; a cherished, beloved new toy that with the passing of time was forgotten by some, but most unfortunately, by its creators. Until now that is. Until nostalgia finally kicked in.

Also, I would like to address something in regards to the characters within Smash (fighters, assist trophies, spirits, etc.). Whenever we see Smash Bros., usually the reveal trailers, and even in the midst of a match, we see all these iconic characters come from their respective worlds, clashing with each other, or fighting alongside one another. However I've come to see each character along the lines of Smash Bros.'s lore. The epic battles the likes of Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, and the rest engage in, actually take place within the imaginary world. All the characters within Smash's lore are in reality, toys. The existence of Master Hand and Crazy Hand, the character trophies in Melee through Smash 4, the stickers in Brawl, they are all elements within the game that stand as proof to that fact. Ditto matches? It's just like when two kids have the same action figure and still play with them, changing their roles. The equivalent to this real life interaction is that in Smash, although players may choose a same character, they are differentiated with the use of name tags (the character is in a way a player's avatar).

Again, sorry if I went too deep with this reflection but... just wanted to share is all.

 

[Droodle]

If these suits were really smart, why did they let hero get shown off with Banjo? When he has geno levels, if not more, of support.

I'm going to assume that you said "before Banjo" and not "with Banjo".

It's pretty simple. Guess what draws the most live views at E3? The first thing at the beginning. By starting off with Hero, they're ensuring that they get the most watchers in the West as possible. If Banjo somehow ended up being shown off before Hero in the same presentation, well less people would end up caring about Hero getting shown off.

Square did the same strategy for their own E3 presentation, by starting off with their primary focus for next year(FF 7 Remake).

 

[Droodle]

Now imagine thinking 10 seconds of Chocobo would do any negative affect. It’s not gonna overshadow Hero nor the game. Again, 10 seconds.

Now quote exactly where I said that. You should read my argument without skimming it over.

 

[RingJ5]

Final Fantasy didn't need promoting in the West.

Dragon Quest did.

Different situations altogether.

That's why you shouldn't expect any other presentation to be hard focused on one franchise to begin with. They're all different situations from DQ, which needed it(especially when SE says it themselves, it's pretty clear part of why it happened, if not the full reason).


That's not the entirety of what I said. You're cherrypicking.

What I said was Geno's costume was not in the specific presentation(we don't know what happened to the costume) because it takes away from the DQ focus, which has a lot of evidence to why it was a sole focus.

There's literally no evidence to suggest Geno and Chocobo can't be in any other presentation. Just like they could've been scrapped due to negotiations that fell through in the first place. The only thing we know is that they weren't in a presentation dedicated to Dragon Quest only. There's also good reasons to believe, due to knowing they already started negotiating before November(as the timing of saying characters were worked on was during November too at the very least), that it was actually moved to another character presentation. Assuming Geno isn't playable. And this assumes the costume actually was negotiated for and succeeded in getting it back. Changing plans happens. Joker's reveal was changed from its intention, so we know for a fact things change before the presentation itself.

There is no evidence that implies that Square is so ridiculously single-minded that they would toss away already-completed DLC projected for international release in order to market something. And I’m not “cherrypicking” since the rest of your post is basically the exact points that I started this whole argument off with multiple pages ago, with the different costume possibilities and such.

And while I’ll keep myself to my own standards and say that correlation still certainly doesn’t equal causation, it is still worth noting that the only Square costumes in Smash’s history have arrived with Square characters. Out of a sample size of five non-Square waves since Square was first introduced into the series, Square costumes have appeared in none.

Similarly, while this certainly isn’t exactly hard evidence either, Hero’s is still the smallest costume wave in the pass. You’d think that maybe they’d add one or two more DQ ones if they apparently knew beforehand that they were throwing out the returning ones due to them not being DQ, but I guess not.

 

[Deleted member]

Now quote exactly where I said that. You should read my argument without skimming it over.

Um, I did read your argument. It can still be a DQ presentation even with 10 seconds of 2 costumes each if not 30 seconds of Sakurai showing off amiibos. Pretty silly to think two costumes any way a sort of threat to a product Square Enix can handle the backlash and it might not even be as bad compared to Corrin. Negative attitudes from hardcore Smash fanbase shouldn’t that be a concern because if it’s the GENERAL audience then that would be a different story. I really don’t see it’s even worth pointing out that Hero fought other Heroes instead of Cloud.

 

[Ura]

I was one of the people who said Fire Emblem or Astral Chain would be an exception if any. Look what happened?

Promotions happening is just as, if not more, questionable that what others say. I literally based inferences on actual, measurable information. I find it unlikely (not impossible) for upgrades because of the way packs have been handled for two Smash games in a row. That is measurable.

I would at least appreciate responses that don’t ignore anything I’ve said in the past, because blindly believing anything is a bad idea. Dismissing it as a “fan rule” comes off as more of stick fingers in your ears and screaming so you don’t hear what an opposing side thinks.

I’m not blindly believing anything.

For the sake of the thread I think it would be best to move on.

I wasn't saying it was you but holy hell the amount of people that would get at my throat for the mere suggestion of a first-party DLC character was borderline insuferable. And like wise, that assumption died a death when it turned out people's perceptions didn't "have" to be correct based on precedent. So likewise, i'm not seeing much different with anti-promotions arguments making an assumption of what we got already.

Sure, there's the crossover element to take in to consideration yeah but Sakurai being proud of the amount of franchises represented in the game isn't the same thing as him saying "yeah i'm going to keep these franchises/characters the way they are forever". Obivously, that trend of expanding the crossover will continue but that abosutely doesn't eliminate the chances for characters/franchises in the game.

It's not so much sticking fingers in your ears and ignoring the opposite argument as it is being tired of the same circular debate over and over again. As far as i'm concerned, there really is no hard rule for anything until the DLC is all wrapped up and finished. That could come at any given moment in this Pass or even a hypothetical FP3.

Also, your point about promotions never happening before. Mewtwo & Lucas were promoted from trophy status in Smash 4. Not the best example. And no, they don't get a pass because they're veterans lol.

 

[T2by4]

Saw pap genos latest vid. Seems like Crash is the big name for FP6. I feel like thats good considering that mii costume leak that claimed crash was FP5. Geno may be coming after all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There is no evidence that implies that Square is so ridiculously single-minded that they would toss away already-completed DLC projected for international release in order to market something. And I’m not “cherrypicking” since the rest of your post is basically the exact points that I started this whole argument off with multiple pages ago, with the different costume possibilities and such.

What makes you think the costumes still came back? That's not proven. In fact, every 3rd party costume was not in base. They negotiated for them later, as we can tell. That means, assuming they came back, they had to negotiate for them for Pass 1. But here's the kicker; they're not there. There's an actual good chance they weren't coming back in the first place. This just came to mind about the timing. It's also possible they re-negotiated after deciding on Hero's presentation to be DQ-focused, which fits the timing of when Pass 2 was actually decided upon. Everything is basically accounted for, if they come back or Geno is playable. Or if they don't come back. Still fits.

And while I’ll keep myself to my own standards and say that correlation still certainly doesn’t equal causation, it is still worth noting that the only Square costumes in Smash’s history have arrived with Square characters. Out of a sample size of five non-Square waves since Square was first introduced into the series, Square costumes have appeared in none.

This only suggests they may not be coming back too. Besides that, patterns aren't a good way to look at it. That's a one-time thing and we've seen costumes come back all over the place. The actual patterns show the exact opposite, that they could come with almost anything. But it also suggests a SE second character, since they had multiple chances too. Either could happen and it'd make sense with everything that's going on. That's how weird this situation is.

Similarly, while this certainly isn’t exactly hard evidence either, Hero’s is still the smallest costume wave in the pass. You’d think that maybe they’d add one or two more DQ ones if they apparently knew beforehand that they were throwing out the returning ones due to them not being DQ, but I guess not.

So they might've been removed(for promotional timing on DQ's part) and put somewhere else? It's the only supporting piece that suggests they're coming back. But that's kind of it.

We have actual evidence of hefty DQ promotion. But seeing as how there's no way the costumes were going to be in base anyway, they would have to be DLC. But they're not there either. I was originally not for the "scrapped" bit, but I completely forgot about negotiation timing. They actually could've easily been scrapped due to new licensing costs for Hero. Seeing as how we have a Geno spirit, he's represented in some way, so it's no longer a priority. Of course, it doesn't mean they are scrapped, but it's easily a possibility.

 

[Droodle]

Um, I did read your argument. It can still be a DQ presentation even with 10 seconds of 2 costumes each if not 15 seconds of Sakurai showing off an amiibo. Pretty silly to think two costumes any way a sort of threat to a product Square Enix can handle the backlash and it might not even be as bad compared to Corrin. Negative attitudes from hardcore Smash fanbase shouldn’t that be a concern because of it’s the GENERAL audience then that would be a different story. I really don’t see it’s even worth pointing out that Hero fought other Heroes instead of Cloud.

Their goal isn't to handle the backlash, it's to minimize any possibility of backlash and maximize as much Western awareness as possible. If they approached anywhere near half of Corrin's level of backlash it would still result in a pretty bad outcome for how much Square Enix is trying to get DQ to take off in the west. Square Enix has already tried traditional marketing, and even then DQ didn't do as well as they'd hoped. Smash presentation was essentially the primary advertisement for DQ 11 S, you don't want your advertisement to give mixed feelings towards the products. That may also be one of the reasons why they pretty much kept entirely to DQ content for 17 minutes in a 21 minute presentation.

Heck it gets even weirder when you look at the other presentations:
- Joker is a weird exception due to his presentation style. But even then he fights tons of other series during his showcase.
- Banjo has a focus on Mario/DK series. Makes perfect sense.
- Sakurai uses Ryu as a dummy for Terry's presentation.
- Byleth showcases other Fire Emblem characters like Marth.

and then there's Hero as an exception to this, who pretty much does not feature any other characters at all during his presentation. Cloud vs Hero is an obvious choice, another one could be Hero vs FE/Link (who appeared in his trailer). Yet, pretty much the entirety of the presentation leans hard on the DQ aspect rather then the crossover aspect.

So while it may be weird that he didn't come with Geno/Chocobo costumes; Hero's presentation is pretty wonky in many aspects. Which is why it's reasonable to think of Hero's presentation as a DQ focused ad.

 

[MisterMike]

Saw pap genos latest vid. Seems like Crash is the big name for FP6. I feel like thats good considering that mii costume leak that claimed crash was FP5. Geno may be coming after all.

I'm more excited for the possibility of us getting a "Coach Carter on DVD" Mii Fighter outfit, not gonna lie.

 

[Deity Madason]

Can someone explain to me how Square Enix or Nintendo would at all feel that Geno would over shadow DQ in any sense. I see the arguments going on above haven't read them yet, so this may have already been stated to death already. Sure, a subsection of the online Western fanbase would probably be more happy about the Mii than Hero but just think about what Dragon Quest is for a second and realize how stupid that business meeting would've been.

Square: We'll give you the rights to four DQ protagonists.

Nintendo/or Sakurai: Sure, but can we bring back the Geno and Chocobo Mii costume in the same presentation.

Square: Lol no, that would overshadow Hero and that game we've literally been advertising since the Switch was the NX .

 

[RingJ5]

What makes you think the costumes still came back? That's not proven. In fact, every 3rd party costume was not in base. They negotiated for them later, as we can tell. That means, assuming they came back, they had to negotiate for them for Pass 1. But here's the kicker; they're not there. There's an actual good chance they weren't coming back in the first place. This just came to mind about the timing. It's also possible they re-negotiated after deciding on Hero's presentation to be DQ-focused, which fits the timing of when Pass 2 was actually decided upon. Everything is basically accounted for, if they come back or Geno is playable. Or if they don't come back. Still fits.


This only suggests they may not be coming back too. Besides that, patterns aren't a good way to look at it. That's a one-time thing and we've seen costumes come back all over the place. The actual patterns show the exact opposite, that they could come with almost anything. But it also suggests a SE second character, since they had multiple chances too. Either could happen and it'd make sense with everything that's going on. That's how weird this situation is.


So they might've been removed(for promotional timing on DQ's part) and put somewhere else? It's the only supporting piece that suggests they're coming back. But that's kind of it.

We have actual evidence of hefty DQ promotion. But seeing as how there's no way the costumes were going to be in base anyway, they would have to be DLC. But they're not there either. I was originally not for the "scrapped" bit, but I completely forgot about negotiation timing. They actually could've easily been scrapped due to new licensing costs for Hero. Seeing as how we have a Geno spirit, he's represented in some way, so it's no longer a priority. Of course, it doesn't mean they are scrapped, but it's easily a possibility.

Your entire argument is still predicated on the idea that Square is so laser-focused on promoting DQ in the west that they had Nintendo shelve an already-completed(the models for returning costumes have all been the same as Wii U), mutually-beneficial, internationally-projected set of two DLC costumes and potentially even mess up their whole returning costume release plan just so that they don’t take even the smallest amount of focus away from the Western marketing of a game that Nintendo is already both publishing and putting their massive marketing machine behind. I just can’t see a scenario where either party would unironically think that that’s a good idea.

As for the whole negotiation thing, consider this: If Square, at any point, wasn’t supposed to come with two returning Mii Costumes... why did all the other waves only come with two? Clearly, looking at their example, it isn’t supposed to be a hard and fast rule or anything, so where’s the Monster Hunter ones? The Namco ones? Surely it would make sense to throw the Namco ones in somewhere, those guys literally co-develop the game. Yet they just... didn’t. They stuck to two every time except for Square, which under the “they cut them to promote DQ” line of thinking makes no sense.

 

[Lord Woomy]

Can someone explain to me how Square Enix or Nintendo would at all feel that Geno would over shadow DQ in any sense. I see the arguments going on above haven't read them yet, so this may have already been stated to death already. Sure, a subsection of the online Western fanbase would probably be more happy about the Mii than Hero but just think about what Dragon Quest is for a second and realize how stupid that business meeting would've been.

Square: We'll give you the rights to four DQ protagonists.

Nintendo/or Sakurai: Sure, but can we bring back the Geno and Chocobo Mii costume in the same presentation.

Square: Lol no, that would overshadow Hero and that game we've literally been advertising since the Switch was the NX .

Ikr? I get Square can be ornery sometimes but even they probably realize the years of marketing for DQ aren't gonna be offset by a Mii Costume everyone expected returning.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Your entire argument is still predicated on the idea that Square is so laser-focused on promoting DQ in the west that they had Nintendo shelve an already-completed(the models for returning costumes have all been the same as Wii U), mutually-beneficial, internationally-projected set of two DLC costumes and potentially even mess up their whole returning costume release plan just so that they don’t take even the smallest amount of focus away from the Western marketing of a game that Nintendo is already both publishing and putting their massive marketing machine behind. I just can’t see a scenario where either party would unironically think that that’s a good idea.

Yet they did. Assuming the costumes were even negotiated to come back(which it doesn't matter if Nintendo has previous models. They can't use them in the game outside of "proof of concept" anyway without permission). They would've been negotiated at the same time as Hero. And yet, they're gone. There's actually a lot bigger chance they were never coming back. Thus, nothing else to present with DQ... but we already see that DQ doesn't have any other characters beyond itself in it. Where the other DLC has other various characters in it. They actually did a lot more focus than I thought.

As for the whole negotiation thing, consider this: If Square, at any point, wasn’t supposed to come with two returning Mii Costumes... why did all the other waves only come with two? Clearly, looking at their example, it isn’t supposed to be a hard and fast rule or anything, so where’s the Monster Hunter ones? The Namco ones? Surely it would make sense to throw the Namco ones in somewhere, those guys literally co-develop the game. Yet they just... didn’t. They stuck to two every time except for Square, which under the “they cut them to promote DQ” line of thinking makes no sense.

Why would the other waves matter? There's no pattern. Square-Enix is not the other companies. It's irrelevant what they(other companies) agree to. What matters is what SE says yes to.

Why are you looking for some kind of pattern? There never was one. Each company are their own thing and makes their own decisions. There's no reason to believe there's any correlation between them. Like, I doubt they're scrapped, but it would explain a lot. But it also makes even more sense to present them at a time later because they had time to negotiate. It'd make a lot of sense to come with another SE character, something they had time to do before Hero's presentation as is. People can re-license things/change agreements. Though to be frank, it's far more likely it was going to be hard-DQ focused no matter what due to the licensed agreement. The costumes, in that case, if they were coming back, would've been negotiated to be at a different time.

You can keep asking these questions, but the answers and possibilities are the same. Negotiations aren't a one-and-done thing. They never have been. Geno's costume was negotiated for Smash 4 and that's it. We already know all the 3rd Party costumes could not have been negotiated for both games. That's impossible. They'd already have shown up if that was the case. Sakurai did not immediately decide on a DLC pass. That was decided upon later. The idea Square said no? That's perfectly reasonable because, get this, they don't have to say yes to everything. It's their IP's. Renewing the license is what blatantly happened(since there's literally no other scenario that's possible) for many costumes(not necessarily all).

There's probably some redundancy in here, but you're assuming way too much that SE will say yes to everything coming back. That's possible, of course. But that may not have been what happened. Money is a thing that Nintendo and Sakurai have to spend. Renewing the costumes could've even cost more than they wanted to pay, since they already got enough DQ content. Or they felt saving it for a later time would be easier. Cause as I said, licensing agreements aren't that simple. They can do things in certain circumstances. "Do this now, and you get the costumes for a later character of your choice to come with" is possible. Yes, it's more likely to come with a SE character too. But we clearly see that's not the case for multiple costumes, and to say SE will only do stuff together isn't that simple. There's precedent, but there's also looking at the full picture. Things aren't black and white.

 

[MattX20]

Man, it feels like a courtroom over the whole Geno costume being MIA.

 

[Lord Woomy]

Man, it feels like a courtroom over the whole Geno costume being MIA.

WHERE WERE YOU ON THE MORNING OF JULY 30TH 2019?????

 

[RingJ5]

Yet they did. Assuming the costumes were even negotiated to come back(which it doesn't matter if Nintendo has previous models. They can't use them in the game outside of "proof of concept" anyway without permission). They would've been negotiated at the same time as Hero. And yet, they're gone. There's actually a lot bigger chance they were never coming back. Thus, nothing else to present with DQ... but we already see that DQ doesn't have any other characters beyond itself in it. Where the other DLC has other various characters in it. They actually did a lot more focus than I thought.


Why would the other waves matter? There's no pattern. Square-Enix is not the other companies. It's irrelevant what they(other companies) agree to. What matters is what SE says yes to.

Why are you looking for some kind of pattern? There never was one. Each company are their own thing and makes their own decisions. There's no reason to believe there's any correlation between them. Like, I doubt they're scrapped, but it would explain a lot. But it also makes even more sense to present them at a time later because they had time to negotiate. It'd make a lot of sense to come with another SE character, something they had time to do before Hero's presentation as is. People can re-license things/change agreements. Though to be frank, it's far more likely it was going to be hard-DQ focused no matter what due to the licensed agreement. The costumes, in that case, if they were coming back, would've been negotiated to be at a different time.

You can keep asking these questions, but the answers and possibilities are the same. Negotiations aren't a one-and-done thing. They never have been. Geno's costume was negotiated for Smash 4 and that's it. We already know all the 3rd Party costumes could not have been negotiated for both games. That's impossible. They'd already have shown up if that was the case. Sakurai did not immediately decide on a DLC pass. That was decided upon later. The idea Square said no? That's perfectly reasonable because, get this, they don't have to say yes to everything. It's their IP's. Renewing the license is what blatantly happened(since there's literally no other scenario that's possible) for many costumes(not necessarily all).

There's probably some redundancy in here, but you're assuming way too much that SE will say yes to everything coming back. That's possible, of course. But that may not have been what happened. Money is a thing that Nintendo and Sakurai have to spend. Renewing the costumes could've even cost more than they wanted to pay, since they already got enough DQ content. Or they felt saving it for a later time would be easier. Cause as I said, licensing agreements aren't that simple. They can do things in certain circumstances. "Do this now, and you get the costumes for a later character of your choice to come with" is possible. Yes, it's more likely to come with a SE character too. But we clearly see that's not the case for multiple costumes, and to say SE will only do stuff together isn't that simple. There's precedent, but there's also looking at the full picture. Things aren't black and white.

You keep dismissing all my arguments saying that there’s no evidence while refuting them with **** that you also have no evidence to back up, yet in your own personal opinion is more likely than my own opinion. You’re assuming just as much if not even more than I am, and now we’re just arguing in circles.

We really need a Direct already, goddamn.

 

[Deleted member]

How's it going contreras?

 

[AceAttorney9000]

In doing that, they essentially added rocket thrusters to the Geno hype train. In the result that Geno is literally anything less than a fully playable character at this point, they basically have to hope against hope that the backlash that would come from ramping up this train for a full extra year only to have it wreck in a ball of angry fire was worth the tiny extra bit of DQ advertising back in July, because there is no way in hell that they were unaware of how it would look at the time.

I've no dog in this "Square Enix wanted a Geno/Chocobo-free presentation for Hero" argument, but I will say this:

By now, Sakurai, Nintendo, and even Square Enix have to know that Geno is a heavily fan-requested character. If it turns out that Geno has been held back all this time, only to be revealed to be a Mii Fighter costume again, then I see it as meaning one of two things...

1. Square Enix, for whatever reason, absolutely will not budge on Geno being anything more than a Mii Fighter costume... despite that Geno becoming fully playable would only benefit all parties involved, with little to no effort on Square Enix's part.
2. Nintendo, and possibly Sakurai, have learned nothing from the November 1st, 2018 Nintendo Direct, where fan-requested characters like Isaac and Shadow were finally revealed to still be Assist Trophies, despite the wait and their absence beforehand leading their fans into getting excited and thinking they were possibly gonna be playable (the Grinch leak certainly didn't help, but I think the reaction would've been pretty bad regardless).

You can argue whether or not the Geno costume's exclusion from Hero's Mii Fighter costume wave was motivated by Dragon Quest promotion... but regardless of the intention, by excluding that costume in the first place, a ticking time bomb has been activated, one which we have no idea if it'll explode or not, or when it will explode if at all. We've had two more opportunities after Hero to find out (Banjo and Byleth), yet nothing happened and the answer still remains a mystery as of now.

I would hope that Geno is indeed becoming a fully fleshed-out playable character... but in the event that Geno is actually just a costume again (whether remaining unchanged from Smash 4, or given the Sans/Cuphead treatment and bundled with a music track), Nintendo needs to rip the bandage off as soon as possible. As the Isaac and Shadow Assist Trophies have shown, dragging things out only to disappoint fans is never a good thing.

 

[RingJ5]

I've no dog in this "Square Enix wanted a Geno/Chocobo-free presentation for Hero" argument, but I will say this:

By now, Sakurai, Nintendo, and even Square Enix have to know that Geno is a heavily fan-requested character. If it turns out that Geno has been held back all this time, only to be revealed to be a Mii Fighter costume again, then I see it as meaning one of two things...

1. Square Enix, for whatever reason, absolutely will not budge on Geno being anything more than a Mii Fighter costume... despite that Geno becoming fully playable would only benefit all parties involved, with little to no effort on Square Enix's part.
2. Nintendo, and possibly Sakurai, have learned nothing from the November 1st, 2018 Nintendo Direct, where fan-requested characters like Isaac and Shadow were finally revealed to still be Assist Trophies, despite the wait and their absence beforehand leading their fans into getting excited and thinking they were possibly gonna be playable (the Grinch leak certainly didn't help, but I think the reaction would've been pretty bad regardless).

You can argue whether or not the Geno costume's exclusion from Hero's Mii Fighter costume wave was motivated by Dragon Quest promotion... but regardless of the intention, by excluding that costume in the first place, a ticking time bomb has been activated, one which we have no idea if it'll explode or not, or when it will explode if at all. We've had two more opportunities after Hero to find out (Banjo and Byleth), yet nothing happened and the answer still remains a mystery as of now.

I would hope that Geno is indeed becoming playable... but in the event that Geno is actually just a costume again (whether remaining unchanged from Smash 4, or given the Sans/Cuphead treatment and bundled with a music track), Nintendo needs to rip the bandage off as soon as possible. As the Isaac and Shadow Assist Trophies have shown, dragging things out only to disappoint fans is never a good thing.

It’s basically a ticking time bomb destined to explode either way, the only question is what the explosion will actually be.

If it’s a character it will be confetti, if it’s a costume or nothing it’ll be an explosion of disappointment and hatred.

 

[Lord Woomy]

I would hope that Geno is indeed becoming playable... but in the event that Geno is actually just a costume again (whether remaining unchanged from Smash 4, or given the Sans/Cuphead treatment and bundled with a music track), Nintendo needs to rip the bandage off as soon as possible. As the Isaac and Shadow Assist Trophies have shown, dragging things out only to disappoint fans is never a good thing.

It's already too late honestly, if they wanted any form of damage control, they should've done it during the pass and not held out for so long. At this point, it barely even matters if it's with 6 or 11, they've messed up royally.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You keep dismissing all my arguments saying that there’s no evidence while refuting them with **** that you also have no evidence to back up, yet in your own personal opinion is more likely than my own opinion. You’re assuming just as much if not even more than I am, and now we’re just arguing in circles.

We really need a Direct already, goddamn.

You can't honestly say there's evidence supporting your side. I at least have hard evidence of SE directly saying they need to promote it. Of course that has more logic towards it. There's something tangible to look at.

I don't think the costumes are scrapped, once again, but we have no evidence they're still there. We know for a fact that negotiations had to happen again, as we see all 3rd party costumes with DLC-only. Which we know that the entire pass was not from the start by discussed later on during the base game, so that's the earliest those costumes could've been negotiated for. There's a reason why the costumes may simply not have made it in. SE can say no. That's up to them. Doesn't matter that Sakurai has the old costumes. That's not his call. He has to get permission to use them entirely. That includes any old 3rd party from a previous game. He can't just port them over and fully work on them(again, beyond proof of concept). We actually see this in Smash 3DS, where he ported Brawl over, but while Snake's data was there, it was cut in the end because he couldn't use it without Konami's permission.

We've seen cut content from 3rd parties. Not every AT is back either. Why is SE special when more than one company has said no to content? There's actual reason to believe, that yes, the costumes may have been cut. Not have, just may. I mean, I hope not(bar a playable Geno) myself, but there's nothing really stating they must come back. I'm sure, if they were cut, Sakurai gave it his all to get 'em back, like the rest of the content from 3rd parties. As I said, it's not a one-and-done deal.

 

[RingJ5]

You can't honestly say there's evidence supporting your side. I at least have hard evidence of SE directly saying they need to promote it. Of course that has more logic towards it. There's something tangible to look at.

I don't think the costumes are scrapped, once again, but we have no evidence they're still there. We know for a fact that negotiations had to happen again, as we see all 3rd party costumes with DLC-only. Which we know that the entire pass was not from the start by discussed later on during the base game, so that's the earliest those costumes could've been negotiated for. There's a reason why the costumes may simply not have made it in. SE can say no. That's up to them. Doesn't matter that Sakurai has the old costumes. That's not his call. He has to get permission to use them entirely. That includes any old 3rd party from a previous game. He can't just port them over and fully work on them(again, beyond proof of concept). We actually see this in Smash 3DS, where he ported Brawl over, but while Snake's data was there, it was cut in the end because he couldn't use it without Konami's permission.

We've seen cut content from 3rd parties. Not every AT is back either. Why is SE special when more than one company has said no to content? There's actual reason to believe, that yes, the costumes may have been cut. Not have, just may. I mean, I hope not(bar a playable Geno) myself, but there's nothing really stating they must come back. I'm sure, if they were cut, Sakurai gave it his all to get 'em back, like the rest of the content from 3rd parties. As I said, it's not a one-and-done deal.

There is absolutely nothing to imply that Square intends to promote DQ to the specific detriment of everything else, simply that they want to promote it in the first place. They do not have a notable history of self-sabotage that would make this kind of move logical or expected in any way, shape or form.

Literally everything else in your post is just your assumption on how their negotiations work, which we do not know any details of. Except- okay, I’m actually going to need a direct source on that Snake thing, because you’re staking a pretty big claim on it and I’ve never heard of anything even remotely like that.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There is absolutely nothing to imply that Square intends to promote DQ to the specific detriment of everything else, simply that they want to promote it in the first place. They do not have a notable history of self-sabotage that would make this kind of move logical or expected in any way, shape or form.

There was no self-sabotage, so that point doesn't really make sense. Them avoiding promoting FF was a smart move. Not including Geno's costume is debatable, but it definitely would've taken some spotlight away. This idea it wasn't a threat doesn't work. He's too requested for them to not take it into account.

Of course, priorities were pretty clear from the start. DQ-only.

Literally everything else in your post is just your assumption on how their negotiations work, which we do not know any details of. Except- okay, I’m actually going to need a direct source on that Snake thing, because you’re staking a pretty big claim on it and I’ve never heard of anything even remotely like that.

There's no assumptions. That's how they actually work. You negotiate for certain content. Everything points literally to a educated conclusion of how it works. If there was non-DLC 3rd party costumes, why are they not there? That means they were negotiated to come with specific DLC characters, which we know were not negotiated for at the start.

There's literally no other explanation for that. Remember, the idea of the Pass was thought of after they already were far into the base game. We know that for a fact. Sakurai cannot negotiate for DLC that may not happen. That's literally impossible. So yes, it's clear what happened. It's actually looking at the entire situation. Licensing also doesn't work the way you're implying it does. You can't use a product forever. You can't have a right to use an item literally in anything you want in general. There has to be something tangible to begin with so they can agree to it. Literally the only case where there's no need for negotiations is ZUN, but every single company doesn't work the way he does. They actually want to know what the hell their content is being used for. They may not care about every tiny detail, but SE absolutely cares about the details(why do you think Cloud's costumes suck? Why do you think we got two more Heroes? Cause SE wanted it that way. If it was purely up to Sakurai, we'd have Luminary and Erdrick and that was it. It's a two-way street, and the IP holder has the most control).

That said, you're right this is going in circles and I'll end it here on my part.

 

[P47]

Man, it feels like a courtroom over the whole Geno costume being MIA.

Turnabout Puppet

 

[RingJ5]

There was no self-sabotage, so that point doesn't really make sense. Them avoiding promoting FF was a smart move. Not including Geno's costume is debatable, but it definitely would've taken some spotlight away. This idea it wasn't a threat doesn't work. He's too requested for them to not take it into account.

Of course, priorities were pretty clear from the start. DQ-only.


There's no assumptions. That's how they actually work. You negotiate for certain content. Everything points literally to a educated conclusion of how it works. If there was non-DLC 3rd party costumes, why are they not there? That means they were negotiated to come with specific DLC characters, which we know were not negotiated for at the start.

There's literally no other explanation for that. Remember, the idea of the Pass was thought of after they already were far into the base game. We know that for a fact. Sakurai cannot negotiate for DLC that may not happen. That's literally impossible. So yes, it's clear what happened. It's actually looking at the entire situation. Licensing also doesn't work the way you're implying it does. You can't use a product forever. You can't have a right to use an item literally in anything you want in general. There has to be something tangible to begin with so they can agree to it. Literally the only case where there's no need for negotiations is ZUN, but every single company doesn't work the way he does. They actually want to know what the hell their content is being used for. They may not care about every tiny detail, but SE absolutely cares about the details(why do you think Cloud's costumes suck? Why do you think we got two more Heroes? Cause SE wanted it that way. If it was purely up to Sakurai, we'd have Luminary and Erdrick and that was it. It's a two-way street, and the IP holder has the most control).

First of all, I would absolutely call it self-sabotage to cut two pieces of content that were absolutely ready to go with a single word, that for all we know might have been negotiated for back in base game, because again we know literally nothing about how these negotiations work. But even besides that, there is no chance in the goddamn universe that “not including them for a few seconds in order to keep the focus solely on DQ” would get them more money overall than just... putting them up for sale, people wouldn’t care that much.

But all that is kind of besides the more interesting part of your response: Are you trying to claim that 3DS was at least partially a Brawl port? Do you have any sort of source to your claim about Snake being in the files?

 

[TX-55]

Holy****, Crash could have some RNG elements in his move-set.

Btw, would Geno come with a gimmick, or just a simple move-set similar to Banjo?
Sorry, I'm not really familiar with his abilities.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But all that is kind of besides the more interesting part of your response: Are you trying to claim that 3DS was at least partially a Brawl port? Do you have any sort of source to your claim about Snake being in the files?

It's not a Brawl port. Sakurai ports over old files to give him data to start working on.

Give me a sec, cause it's a real thing. I might have to find another unique site that lists the files. It's how we found out Ridley was a boss for a stage.

 

[MisterMike]

Man, it feels like a courtroom over the whole Geno costume being MIA.

WHERE WERE YOU ON THE MORNING OF JULY 30TH 2019?????

Turnabout Puppet

Nobody wanted this, but here it is:

Spoiler: I present to you...

Genix Wright

 

[RingJ5]

Holy****, Crash could have some RNG elements in his move-set.

Btw, would Geno come with a gimmick, or just a simple move-set similar to Banjo?
Sorry, I'm not really familiar with his abilities.

His “gimmick” would be timed hits. Some of his attacks would have extra damage/effects if you press/hold and release/etc at certain particular times.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Nobody wanted this, but here it is:

Spoiler: I present to you...

Genix Wright
View attachment 259696

I see the defense is ready...

Spoiler

... so is the prosecution, Your Honor.

 

[Shado-will]

Nobody wanted this, but here it is:

Spoiler: I present to you...

Genix Wright
View attachment 259696

"HOLD IT! That star piece belongs to everyone. You can't keep it."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2h8x7h/character_crowd_chant_files_show_lucas_snake_ice/
https://tcrf.net/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._for_Nintendo_3DS

Found it, kind of. The original data list was removed from Pastebin. Considering it's literally data from the 3DS version, it was technically a leak, so probably removed to not get in trouble or something. It doesn't cover the entire set of information, though. There was a lot more found than what the links point to.

A lot of sites don't list it due to the source being gone now. Can't blame them. Not sure why nobody saved it, but it's not findable by Google and not on SourceGaming either apparently.

 

[RingJ5]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2h8x7h/character_crowd_chant_files_show_lucas_snake_ice/
https://tcrf.net/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._for_Nintendo_3DS

Found it, kind of. The original data list was removed from Pastebin. Considering it's literally data from the 3DS version, it was technically a leak, so probably removed to not get in trouble or something. It doesn't cover the entire set of information, though. There was a lot more found than what the links point to.

A lot of sites don't list it due to the source being gone now. Can't blame them. Not sure why nobody saved it, but it's not findable by Google and not on SourceGaming either apparently.

So wait, it’s not actual specific character data, it’s the full list of crowd chant files from Brawl, just thrown in and commented out, including Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, etc? Unless you can remember something else more specific, I don’t think that a crowd chanting “Snake!” is something that Konami would have to be involved in, and it doesn’t prove further development intent unless you’re saying that it also does for Wolf, PT, and... er, the Fighting Alloy Team, since they’re also in there.

Anyway, to get things back on topic, now that it’s confirmed that all FP2 characters will have to include a stage, what would Geno’s be?

 

[MisterMike]

Anyway, to get things back on topic, now that it’s confirmed that all FP2 characters will have to include a stage, what would Geno’s be?

I made a post a while back about this:

I think Forest Maze is probably the better choice, really. It's where you meet Geno, it's where his unofficial theme song comes from which would be more fitting, and there's plenty you can do with it. You could have Wigglers that come out of the stumps and can act as bouncy platforms, or have Bowyer in the back shooting paralyzing arrow shots. Hell, you could even have Bowser's Castle, complete with Exor embedded in the top, looming off in the distance. Maybe they could have Exor descend down into the castle when the match starts like we see in the beginning of the game? And there's always the possibility of them just going hog wild with cameos from most if not all of the major bosses in the game.

 

[Franco Geno]

I think Forest Maze is probably the better choice, really. It's where you meet Geno, it's where his unofficial theme song comes from which would be more fitting, and there's plenty you can do with it. You could have Wigglers that come out of the stumps and can act as bouncy platforms, or have Bowyer in the back shooting paralyzing arrow shots. Hell, you could even have Bowser's Castle, complete with Exor embedded in the top, looming off in the distance. Maybe they could have Exor descend down into the castle when the match starts like we see in the beginning of the game? And there's always the possibility of them just going hog wild with cameos from most if not all of the major bosses in the game.

Facts

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So wait, it’s not actual specific character data, it’s the full list of crowd chant files from Brawl, just thrown in and commented out, including Wolf, Pokemon Trainer, etc? Unless you can remember something else more specific, I don’t think that a crowd chanting “Snake!” is something that Konami would have to be involved in, and it doesn’t prove further development intent unless you’re saying that it also does for Wolf, PT, and... er, the Fighting Alloy Team, since they’re also in there.

Anyway, to get things back on topic, now that it’s confirmed that all FP2 characters will have to include a stage, what would Geno’s be?

No, it was more than that. It had other character data too. I can't find anymore information cause the list was removed. That's just a tiny snippet of the data found. It also had the full data of Pokemon Trainer(who was cut due to transformation issues as is).

But like I said, the original data dump is erased. But yes, to use Snake in general in the final game, they have to have Konami's permission. The data found here isn't Snake being used, it's leftover unused data of the files from Brawl being transferred over. So either Sakurai didn't ask(which is possible) or negotiations fell through. I don't think he actually clarified if he failed to get Snake back or not. He did mention a small bit about him being one of the many requests on the ballot, but it wasn't too clear beyond that.

As for Geno's stage, I'm thinking a cloudy one based upon Star Road.