Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior (Our quest is almost over! And when the time comes…)

EarlTamm

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The holy trinity is reborn!

Well, technically, we have two of the three from the original holy trinity of Smash 4 speculation (Mewtwo and Ridley). So I'm down for a new holy trinity. How about King K. Rool, Geno, and Isaac? Seems to fit the bill pretty well to me (Also, damn makes me more sad King K. Rool hasn't made it in given he's just as much up there with Geno in terms of huge fan demand and being a big topic since the time of Brawl).
The holy trinity of Ridley, K.Rool, and Geno is the franchise wide speculation. The undisputed icons of Smash speculation and breaking perceived limits. Ridley for his constant presence in Smash and one of Nintendo's villainous icons while being held back by gameplay, K.Rool for his huge popularity as an underused series villain who fights against relevancy, and Geno as the pinnacle of cult classics and a representative of Mario RPG's who fights against legal barricades and the view of one off's. That is how I see them at least.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Okay that was actually a lot of fun and well put!

so I already knew about the mii costume interview. but went to the link just to be sure and read through it and it hit me

Sakurai has gone ON RECORD to say that HE WANTS TO MAKE GENO A CHARACTER
do you know how HUGE that is?! how often has he said that about a requested character?!

You know what I'm 100% convinced now. Geno is in and he is in the base game. This is happening!
Even the detractors are forced to admit that, but they follow it up with, "Yeah but it still hasn't happened so it probably won't. What has changed now?"

...
 
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TerminalMontage TerminalMontage Your video on Geno was a blessing! Great work!
Thanks! I'm glad you guys liked it!
He missed the part of 2 third parties per company concept
Sonic/bayonetta
Megaman/ryu
Snake/Simon Belmont (suposivly)
So it would make sense for cloud/geno and Pac-man/heihachi or Llyod Irving so it's evened out
And that's a good point. I could've mentioned that, I hadn't really thought of it. I actually thought about discussing it with you guys before putting the video together, but then again it was something I wanted to do really quick before I started working on my next project, so I kept it kinda concise.
 

TBone06

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Even the detractors are forced to admit that, but they follow it up with, "Yeah but it still hasn't happened so it probably won't. What has changed now?"

...
It boils my blood when I hear that... What has changed? The fact that the biggest obstacle being Square not letting him in has been eliminated by show of the costume. Clearly there were timing issues which is why we didn't get him playable. It's not like he had a trophy or anything to base that costume off of, they had to make it from scratch. Also proof of Sakurai wanting him in is something we have determined since the end of the last game. A lot has changed. But people love to hate.
 

EricTheGamerman

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The holy trinity of Ridley, K.Rool, and Geno is the franchise wide speculation. The undisputed icons of Smash speculation and breaking perceived limits. Ridley for his constant presence in Smash and one of Nintendo's villainous icons while being held back by gameplay, K.Rool for his huge popularity as an underused series villain who fights against relevancy, and Geno as the pinnacle of cult classics and a representative of Mario RPG's who fights against legal barricades and the view of one off's. That is how I see them at least.
I've agreed with this point individually before in seeing these characters as all something to represent Smash's "supposed boundaries" and how their inclusion would SMASH all those boundaries and newcomer speculation would be all the better for it. If King K. Rool and Geno both manage to make it into Ultimate, the dream has come true and I really won't care who else is on the roster (The other three from my signature I would silently mourn while grinning and enjoying Ultimate too much).

But, I was more referring to the trinity of villains from Smash 4's speculation. Prior to release, these were the three that often got lumped together as people wanted more villains for Smash, and they were also just three of the most highly requested characters at the time. They were certainly mine, which has led to a little bit of remembrance bias on my part I'll admit, but I do remember these three being positioned in high regard leading up to Smash 4's final roster reveal (And even some languishing hope for the Wii U version having more characters than the 3DS). Quite a few people were devastated by the lack of these three, though at least we got Mewtwo back as DLC for that game.

Geno, at the time, did not have the support he seems to have garnered for Ultimate. He was mentioned, but wasn't as highly regarded or considered as likely. Especially considering how much of Smash 4's speculation pointed towards newer characters at the time. Thus, he isn't part of the original holy trinity to me, but I see him becoming a new member for Smash Ultimate.
 

EarlTamm

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Geno, at the time, did not have the support he seems to have garnered for Ultimate. He was mentioned, but wasn't as highly regarded or considered as likely. Especially considering how much of Smash 4's speculation pointed towards newer characters at the time. Thus, he isn't part of the original holy trinity to me, but I see him becoming a new member for Smash Ultimate.
Yeah, Geno's popularity was at it's prime back in the Brawl days. His chances are much better now compared to back then now that we have hindsight. I have just recently joined speculation, but I always heard that Brawl speculation was full of Ridley, Geno, and K.Rool supporters. When Smash 4 came around, Geno faded away from the spotlight for whatever reason and Ridley was killed off after the boss reveal so he did not make it to DLC speculation. K.Rool was the only one who had any major following I think. Btw, who is the third villain after Ridley and K.Rool in the trinity your talking about? Did I miss something?
 
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Thanks! I'm glad you guys liked it!


And that's a good point. I could've mentioned that, I hadn't really thought of it. I actually thought about discussing it with you guys before putting the video together, but then again it was something I wanted to do really quick before I started working on my next project, so I kept it kinda concise.
Thanks TerminalMontage TerminalMontage your video was great a lot of points I knew about easily and some I didn't know about

I forgot the geno costume was the only one to get e splash screen treatment

There's two more thing I can point out

One, square enix and nintendo are getting along a lot better now recently

Two, last time it was near the ending in smash when square enix got involved this time it's the beginning so plenty of time to ask/convince them to let geno in.
 
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I have never really understood the, "Nothing has changed since Brawl/Sm4sh" mindset. Obviously, a lot has changed.

First off, Square wasn't involved with Brawl at all. Maybe Sakurai wanted to add him, but could never secure the rights. Maybe Geno was the character to get the two companies together to talk.

Secondly, Sm4sh still didn't have Square on board until the very end. So, once again, Sakurai may have been unable to secure the rights. But, we got Cloud late and then a Mii Costume for Geno. Pretty awesome to have added at the end.

I guess that is what bothers me about it. The big thing that has changed is that Square and Nintendo are working from the beginning with this one, and Square already has Cloud included in it, plus Geno actually has content in Sm4sh. Seems like the things that were in his way previously have been dealt with. Hopefully, he will land a spot in Ultimate.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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When people say "What changed?" You have to remind them that for the first time Square Enix is involved in the game.

Then they say "But they were involved in Smash 4 and Geno still didn't come" Yes, but only at the end. And that's when we also got the Geno costume"

Then they'll say "Well if Square gets another character it'll be Black Mage or Sora, someone more relevant" or something to that degree.
 

EarlTamm

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Then they'll say "Well if Square gets another character it'll be Black Mage or Sora, someone more relevant" or something to that degree.
And then I would say that for FF, it is to recent of a series added to reasonably get a secound character. Sonic doesn't even have a secound character yet, and he has been around since Brawl. And when it comes to Sora you have all the Disney problems, and despite claims that you can avoid Disney references, Sora has a built in Micky head Key chain on his kingdom key. Also(Idk how true this is, I just heard it previously on this thread), Cloud getting in was exclusively Sakurai's decision, not him being forced by Square to put in their icon. I see this as Sakurai paving the way for Geno, pretty much doing a "Never ask me for anything ever again" to Square before got the chance. Are you gonna argue with the guy who put in your icon without being asked? That is how I see it.
 

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I have just recently joined speculation, but I always heard that Brawl speculation was full of Ridley, Geno, and K.Rool supporters.
Oh Goodness yes. Sometimes the vitriol that was spewed between the Ridley and Geno threads was quite the spectacle. I recall there being many a flamewar. I don't remember much about the K Rool Krowd, though. I'm kinda surprised that the Ridley and Geno crowds are as amicable as they are today, but I suppose the majority of us have just grown up quite a bit since then. lol

Also, PsychoIncarnate PsychoIncarnate I liked the OP as well. =) I'd love it if I could be on the supporter list too.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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welp looks like it's music they added today. a megaman 4 medley oddly enough.... hmmm is there anything unique about 4 compared to other megamans?
It's when the Charge Shot was added

Megaman couldn't charge before it.

It's also when the designs of the Robot Masters started going downhill.

Pharaoh Man and Skull Man are kinda cool

But then you have Dust Man
 

Mr Gentleman

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It's when the Charge Shot was added

Megaman couldn't charge before it.

It's also when the designs of the Robot Masters started going downhill.

Pharaoh Man and Skull Man are kinda cool

But then you have Dust Man
okay was just wondering if it might be something like first game with Protoman or or Bass or something. just seems weird to me that 4 would be the one singled out to get a medley. wasn't last games medley from 2?
 

PsychoIncarnate

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okay was just wondering if it might be something like first game with Protoman or or Bass or something. just seems weird to me that 4 would be the one singled out to get a medley. wasn't last games medley from 2?
Bass wasn't added until Mega Man 7

And I think Proto Man was in 2? Let me check

Nope, it was 3

Edit: I should mention that Mega Man 2 medley made sense because Mega Man 2 had awesome music and is the most popular of the original games.

Mega Man 4 medley... I dunno. I don't remember a lot of Mega Man 4
 
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Jazzy Jinx

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To add on to the previous discussion, besides having to deal with Disney in order to get Sora in the game, Sakurai might still not want to include him because it'll open the floodgates to even crazier, dumber, more impossible requests. Cloud already opened floodgates that (in my opinion) should have remained closed. The only saving grace is that Cloud's inclusion, and his status as Square Enix's mascot, paves the way to allow Geno to come in.
 

EarlTamm

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Oh Goodness yes. Sometimes the vitriol that was spewed between the Ridley and Geno threads was quite the spectacle. I recall there being many a flamewar. I don't remember much about the K Rool Krowd, though. I'm kinda surprised that the Ridley and Geno crowds are as amicable as they are today, but I suppose the majority of us have just grown up quite a bit since then. lol
There still seems to be some scars left from those days, as it seems it is not uncommon for people to be against Geno just because of the old fan base. It is different nowadays and this thread is very chill about everything(I agree that it is because the older supporters have mellowed more as well as the new supporters not having as much nostalgic connection, instead liking Geno's concept and design), but some people can't let go of stuff that happened over a decade ago.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Then they'll say "Well if Square gets another character it'll be Black Mage or Sora, someone more relevant" or something to that degree.
Geno may be owned by Square-Enix, but he isn't a Square-Enix character, if that makes any sense. They aren't holding onto him with a iron grip, his legal ownership is a matter of circumstance rather than intention. Ask yourself how the discussion for acquiring the rights to use Geno's clothes in Smash 4 would have went. Do you think S-E would have said "yes, but he cannot be a character!"? No, that doesn't make any sense, they've just given themselves monumental advertising for a game that isn't even going to be on a Nintendo console (FFVII remake) in the form of Cloud in Smash. Anything else is extra and basically inconsequential. We aren't dealing with two feuding companies here, the guys at the helm at both Nintendo and Square have been at this for an incredibly long time and likely know each other on a first name basis.

Have you noticed how Nintendo has made Octopath Traveler one of their most featured games in just about every Nintendo Direct since its announcement? It's a very, very strong relationship, and if Sakurai wanted Geno in the game, Geno is going to be in the game. The planets are sufficiently aligned and now it's possible and even probable.

Geno is going to be in this game. I would actually be shocked otherwise.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I also find it interesting that people assumed Square would FORCE a character to be in Smash if they were involved

But it's been confirmed Sakurai picked Cloud. Cloud wasn't thrust upon him. He had a choice

Square isn't this unbending behemoth people think they are
 

EricTheGamerman

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Yeah, Geno's popularity was at it's prime back in the Brawl days. His chances are much better now compared to back then now that we have hindsight. I have just recently joined speculation, but I always heard that Brawl speculation was full of Ridley, Geno, and K.Rool supporters. When Smash 4 came around, Geno faded away from the spotlight for whatever reason and Ridley was killed off after the boss reveal so he did not make it to DLC speculation. K.Rool was the only one who had any major following I think. Btw, who is the third villain after Ridley and K.Rool in the trinity your talking about? Did I miss something?
I wasn't around for the Brawl speculation, so I can't attest to that (I was so young that every new thing on the official site was awesome and I spent so long just looking at that site). I know Geno and Ridley had big followings for that game from how other people talk though. They may have been the original holy trinity for that game with King K. Rool. I was just specifically talking about Smash 4 speculation, in which Geno kind of took a back seat in comparison to his support in Brawl and now Ultimate. I saw Geno support and was one myself, but he didn't get mentioned as often by people and many people were focused on characters.

Pre confirmation of the roster, the big three were King K. Rool, Ridley, and Mewtwo to my knowledge. These were the three that formed the villain trio. To be fair Mewtwo isn't really a villain per se, but he was used as one in the final event match of Melee, was the final boss of the Blue/Red/Yellow, and had a fairly dark role in the Pokemon's first movie. As a result, he was lumped in as a sort of villain alongside King K. Rool and Ridley. Myself and others were lamenting that we only had Ganondorf and Bowser as the real villains of the game (Meta Knight and King Dedede hold the anti-hero status more so nowadays). So we were foaming at the mouth for more, especially when Wolf continued to be MIA as well.

That said, Geno does form the trinity of blowing away expectations so I'll say he can fit comfortably into that trio as well as the trio of requested, "less relevant" characters next to Isaac and King K. Rool
 

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I also find it interesting that people assumed Square would FORCE a character to be in Smash if they were involved

But it's been confirmed Sakurai picked Cloud. Cloud wasn't thrust upon him. He had a choice

Square isn't this unbending behemoth people think they are
I think people are interpreting Square's openness when Sakurai questioned them about possible characters as "forcing Cloud".
 

PsychoIncarnate

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I think people are interpreting Square's openness when Sakurai questioned them about possible characters as "forcing Cloud".
So how did it go? Do they have it on record?

Did it go

"So Sakurai, which of our fine characters do you want in Smash? We have Cloud, A random Slime, Cloud, Some dirty old Chocobo, Cloud, female Cloud, Black Mage, and CLOUD."
 

PsychoIncarnate

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If I recall correctly, Square was more shocked that Sakurai requested Cloud. They thought that he would have rather had someone more current as opposed to an older character like Cloud. There's an interview lying around somewhere to that effect.
I kind of feel like Square are a little out of touch

I don't even like Cloud, but when it comes to FF that's all I hear about from people
 
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I gotta hand it to y'all, your optimism is impressive considering how long we've been waiting. I, too, believe Geno has a remarkably good shot at being in the base game considering all of his concrete barriers to inclusion seem to be behind him at this point and just about the only thing that could conceivably get in his way at this point is if Sakurai just... changed his mind. But I hardly think that's likely, considering Geno's been on Sakurai's mind since Brawl and he's acutely aware of just how steadfast and massive his fanbase is. That said, there's always the slim chance that some corporate ******** could get in the way of our dream yet again or another Mario character could steal his spotlight, but regardless, I think he is one of, if not the most likely newcomer we haven't seen yet.
Stay strong, comrades. In five months, all will be revealed and we'll all be able to rest easy. And even if that means we still don't get to play as our favorite doll, at least we'll have the Mii Costume.
 
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Jazzy Jinx

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Just for reference's sake and to show I'm not just pulling stuff out of thin air: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/01/20/sakurai-x-nomura-creator-interview-2016-part-one/

Nomura: When we first talked, I asked “are you sure you’re okay with Cloud?” He’s not a character from a new game, after all.
Yeah, I think out of touch is safe to say.

I will say, having read the rest of the interview just now, it does seem like Nomura might be an overly critical type. I get this feeling from him that he wanted everything about Cloud to be perfect and meet his standards, as if there was no wiggle room for failure. Hopefully none of that douchery affects the negotiation for Geno as a character. I've read elsewhere that Square believes Kingdom Hearts is the future of the company and that they want to leave Final Fantasy behind. That could be a potential roadblock.
 
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EarlTamm

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I think one reason some are so convinced Geno is coming, even if they don't realize it, is what comes after Ultimate for Sakurai. He has always said that the current Smash game will be his last, and frankly, he will always be apart of the Smash series in some way till the day he retires, likely overseeing the project rather than doing anything physical. With Ultimate, it really does feel like he is trying to end his involvement on a high note. We know how Brawl was received, and there was some notable faults with 4. Sakurai could never leave with both of those games being decisive in their own ways, as well as the loose ends he would be leaving behind if he did leave. Sakurai is trying to please everyone, he is leaving no man behind, he is bringing in long requested characters and practically killed clone hate with the term of "Echo Fighters", it honestly feels like he is filling some sort of bucket list so he does not leave with regret, and that bodes well for Geno.
 

EricTheGamerman

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I gotta hand it to y'all, your optimism is impressive considering how long we've been waiting. I, too, believe Geno has a remarkably good shot at being in the base game considering all of his concrete barriers to inclusion seem to be behind him at this point and just about the only thing that could conceivably get in his way at this point is if Sakurai just... changed his mind. But I hardly think that's likely, considering Geno's been on Sakurai's mind since Brawl and he's acutely aware of just how steadfast and massive his fanbase is. That said, there's always the slim chance that some corporate ******** could get in the way of our dream yet again or another Mario character could steal his spotlight, but regardless, I think he is one of, if not the most likely newcomer we haven't seen yet.
Stay strong, comrades. In five months, all will be revealed and we'll all be able to rest easy. And even if that means we still don't get to play as our favorite doll, at least we'll have the Mii Costume.
I'll say this much, if we get Geno, I have no problems having more Mario characters (Mostly because most people here and I don't really count his as one, but whatever). I think there is a lot of interesting potential with other Mario characters, Captain Toad could have lots of potential, a trickster King Boo would be pretty awesome, Kamek would be cool because I'm all down for more sorcerers in Smash (See Ashley, Lip, Isaac, etc.). Which is to say nothing of course of Waluigi. As long as they're all unique characters, who cares?

Obviously I want Geno in first, but I'm not going to boycott other Mario characters just because my personal preference didn't get in (Though Kamek is pushing it a little as uninteresting characters go, as is King Boo, but I'm bias in liking him a lot from Luigi's Mansion).

Edit: Completely forgot to mention several other Mario reps. Paper Mario could be super unique if they really took the time with him. Fawful is my ideal pick for Mario RPG representation if we can't get Geno in the game. Even E. Gadd could be really cool if they made him based around the vacuum properly. Point being, Mario still has a lot of interesting characters to pull from. Geno just happens to be one with more support (and is... perhaps is just a bit more awesome than the rest...)
 
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Jazzy Jinx

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Welp, nevermind... This is why you always read the Part 2 before opening your mouth. =P

Sakurai: (laughs) This time, during Cloud’s development, I didn’t have any instructions like “he needs to be like this, he can’t be like this.” That saved us a lot of trouble.
My apologies for assuming.~
 
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Just for reference's sake and to show I'm not just pulling stuff out of thin air: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/01/20/sakurai-x-nomura-creator-interview-2016-part-one/



Yeah, I think out of touch is safe to say.

I will say, having read the rest of the interview just now, it does seem like Nomura might be an overly critical type. I get this feeling from him that he wanted everything about Cloud to be perfect and meet his standards, as if there was no wiggle room for failure. Hopefully none of that douchery affects the negotiation for Geno as a character. I've read elsewhere that Square believes Kingdom Hearts is the future of the company and that they want to leave Final Fantasy behind. That could be a potential roadblock.
Well, looking into it, Nomura wasn't the director (and possibly wasn't even involved) in SMRPG, so I don't think he'll be much of a problem. Honestly, I'm not even sure the original directors are even around still. Who knows who's in charge of Geno?

As for the KH roadblock...I got nothing on that one. It does seem odd that Square Enix would put their future into a franchise they don't even totally own. Perhaps they're thinking of becoming a Disney company?

That's a scary thought, lol...
 

PsychoIncarnate

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Well, looking into it, Nomura wasn't the director (and possibly wasn't even involved) in SMRPG, so I don't think he'll be much of a problem. Honestly, I'm not even sure the original directors are even around still. Who knows who's in charge of Geno?

As for the KH roadblock...I got nothing on that one. It does seem odd that Square Enix would put their future into a franchise they don't even totally own. Perhaps they're thinking of becoming a Disney company?

That's a scary thought, lol...
LOL, I don't think anyone chooses to become part of Disney

Disney devours them like Kirby in Triple Deluxe
 

Jazzy Jinx

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LOL, I don't think anyone chooses to become part of Disney

Disney devours them like Kirby in Triple Deluxe
And Disney hasn't gotten any less predatory. =P

I usually don't believe in the whole "these two characters are in competition for a slot" argument but I do think Sora is a pretty big potential roadblock. I'd have to verify all of my information more first, though. I don't deny Sakurai wants Geno in but there's a real chance that Square will push for Sora instead... and I could see Nintendo caving to that.
 
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A think the one thing both SMRPG and Kingdom Hearts share is that their composer is Yoko Shimomura. Btw, I hope they bring her in to do some work with some of the tracks.
Yoko Shimomura is a common element between a great many RPGs...I seriously think she's done at least one song in every RPG I've ever played, lol.

You're totally right, though--she's got to do a SMRPG track. It's like going back to her roots. And she's already on the staff for Smash (she did the Vega stage remix.) She can handle one more track, at least.

Here's a question I just thought of: what real instrument would be used for the main melody of Forest Mushrooms in a theoretical remix? I'm not sure what the current synth is meant to sound like. Some kind of woodwind?
 
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