Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior (On to Fighter's Pass 2 Speculation)

Dorayaki

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Basically, I feel that Square doesn't respect Smash Bros, for some unknown reason. At least not to the degree they should. We probably should be thankful that we even got Cloud and Dragon Quest Hero in at all with all this knowledge in mind, but until we get Geno, there's always gonna be that missing piece for sure. Sora is literally the only Square character I can understand being excluded, partially because... well, Sora is technically owned by Disney. Though I'm sure Nintendo/Sakurai would have to talk to Square and/or Nomura about certain aspects anyway.
My personal thought isn't that Square isn't respecting Nintendo or Smash bros, at least they do, so that they can promote their brands under NIntendo consoles. I think what matters is that they don't think Geno matters to NIntendo and its fanbase, and mutually, Nintendo share the same thought with them. In their mind they regard Cloud and the DQ heroes as their current bridge of cooperation.

Like I mentinoed before, Nintendo isn't the main source of problem, the biggest matter is that Square never think about making use of Geno in their own game series despite of ownership. I do think with given popularity and potential, they could think about it, and not doing anything is a real waste. It would had been a good oppotunity for Geno to get rid of the Mario frame and start his own business to be like Banjo,
 
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I think hoping Byleth wasn't 5 is just wishful thinking. I know we'd all hope Nintendo and Sakurai wouldn't be as tone-deaf as making a FE character the last of the pass especially as they've repeatedly shown they are aware of the community's feelings but they are. I know that according to the pattern the pass seemed to set, Byleth looks like an outlier but if we look beyond the pass to the last generation of DLC we see a different story. Last game the only newcomers we got are the exact same thing as the pass, third parties and ads for Nintendo. Nintendo has always made sure to have some characters to promote what they are doing. With hindsight it's easy to see what actually happened was we were all just too quick to let go of the ad pick. Sure it sucks, but it makes way more sense than some super amazing character shuffling conspiracy.
 
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Geno's biggest obstacle at this point is still the fact NIntendo chose plant piranha over him to be the latest Mario rep, ignoring the difficulty of forcing expanding Mario contents at this point. It feels like Geno was a potential bonus choice if NIntendo wanted to make it happen without highlighting him as a main content,
Sakurai chose Plant himself to be different than the standard heroes/villains/whoever. I don’t think it has anything to do with Geno or any other characters, he just wanted a normal enemy as a fighter.
 
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Firox

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Even if Ultimate seems or is impossible to surpass, Smash is too big of a cash cow for them to let go. Believe me, we are getting another Smash after this game whether it has Sakurai directing it or not Nintendo won't let this franchise die.
I'm 99.9999% sure that there will always be another Smash Bros. Whether they will be of consistently higher quality is HEAVILY up to debate. Like it or not, sooner or later, the roster WILL hit critical mass in the same way Pokemon did where there will just be too many characters for the game itself to handle and/or to balance fairly. Plus, mechanically speaking, I predict that each subsequent Smash bros will show significantly diminishing returns. You can only optimize visuals and inputs so much. Even Sakurai himself seems to acknowledge this.
 
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Dorayaki

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Sakurai chose Plant himself to be different than the standard heroes/villains/whoever. I don’t think this matters much for Geno.
Problem stays that if Geno was in the plan, the slot for the bonus fighter would unlikely be from Mario series in the first place. And I think Geno is still objectively known as an unconventonal choice due to his role and demand,
 

Lord Woomy

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Problem stays that if Geno was in the plan, the slot for the bonus fighter would unlikely be from Mario series in the first place. And I think Geno is still objectively known as an unconventonal choice due to his role and demand,
You do realize, especially for a bonus character, Geno is under completely different circumstances than Plant because he's not owned by Nintendo
 

Dorayaki

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You do realize, especially for a bonus character, Geno is under completely different circumstances than Plant because he's not owned by Nintendo
The last reply meant to say that it could had been from an unpresented series, and, well, no matter if Geno would come soon, choosing to add more Mario contents is still controversial in its own way.

As for the other point, I see that the bonus can hardly be from 3rd party.
 

ForsakenM

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This Spirit battle change that depends on whether you purchased a Mii Costume or not is interesting but it's just visible proof of something anyone with above -20 IQ would already come to understand. It's almost like the developers of a game can make changes to content of the existing game in the future, who'd have thunk it?

Seriously though, the anti-Spirits argument has always been fundamentally flawed because it's based off the flawed concept that Sakurai and his team would never and could never make changes to the game in any way they deem fit. If that was the case, we wouldn't have any DLC or patches. The fact always was that if needed, changes can be made, and that was very not true nor were Spirits ever exempt from that. Just because we now have visible proof that A. They can change the names of Spirits to make way for new ones (something that totally defeats any argument against Geno btw) and B. That they are willing to adjust the content of Spirit battles based on what content you do or do not own, which is also proof that they can adjust Spirit battles in general for any reason they deem fit, doesn't mean anyone stuck in their stupid ways will change their minds.

Remember, most of the people arguing against us are using their feelings as a defense and unfortunately the only retort for that is to call them out for not being logic but emotional and to bring it back to facts and logic. If they cannot or will not, the discussion is rendered pointless and mute as they will refuse to listen to reason.

Also, to clarify since I got a weird message from Neon05 Neon05 yesterday, my post was not meant to say 'Throw away all the speculative information regarding Geno': it was meant to say 'Put that all aside for a moment and realize that we have a strong enough base with just the facts directly tied to Smash.' I say this because I feel like we rely too much on what leakers say or think and that we hinge on speculation when in reality, we have the highest chance of getting our character in Vol 2 and none of it has to do with anything other than solid factual events. Oh, and I want to add in that I forgot to tie in that Geno's Mii Costume has yet to return. Some my see this as speculation, but it is a fact that it has yet to return despite having multiple opportunities to do so. Considering it's just copy/pasta free money for Square, the fact that it STILL hasn't returned raises questions. So yes, the lack of the returning costume leads into speculation, but the fact that is hasn't returned and that it's a good sign for Geno remain just that: facts.
 

Neon05

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This Spirit battle change that depends on whether you purchased a Mii Costume or not is interesting but it's just visible proof of something anyone with above -20 IQ would already come to understand. It's almost like the developers of a game can make changes to content of the existing game in the future, who'd have thunk it?

Seriously though, the anti-Spirits argument has always been fundamentally flawed because it's based off the flawed concept that Sakurai and his team would never and could never make changes to the game in any way they deem fit. If that was the case, we wouldn't have any DLC or patches. The fact always was that if needed, changes can be made, and that was very not true nor were Spirits ever exempt from that. Just because we now have visible proof that A. They can change the names of Spirits to make way for new ones (something that totally defeats any argument against Geno btw) and B. That they are willing to adjust the content of Spirit battles based on what content you do or do not own, which is also proof that they can adjust Spirit battles in general for any reason they deem fit, doesn't mean anyone stuck in their stupid ways will change their minds.

Remember, most of the people arguing against us are using their feelings as a defense and unfortunately the only retort for that is to call them out for not being logic but emotional and to bring it back to facts and logic. If they cannot or will not, the discussion is rendered pointless and mute as they will refuse to listen to reason.

Also, to clarify since I got a weird message from Neon05 Neon05 yesterday, my post was not meant to say 'Throw away all the speculative information regarding Geno': it was meant to say 'Put that all aside for a moment and realize that we have a strong enough base with just the facts directly tied to Smash.' I say this because I feel like we rely too much on what leakers say or think and that we hinge on speculation when in reality, we have the highest chance of getting our character in Vol 2 and none of it has to do with anything other than solid factual events. Oh, and I want to add in that I forgot to tie in that Geno's Mii Costume has yet to return. Some my see this as speculation, but it is a fact that it has yet to return despite having multiple opportunities to do so. Considering it's just copy/pasta free money for Square, the fact that it STILL hasn't returned raises questions. So yes, the lack of the returning costume leads into speculation, but the fact that is hasn't returned and that it's a good sign for Geno remain just that: facts.
Sometimes my messages are meant to be weird. No hard feelings.
 

Firox

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Honestly? Should have gone with Kamek then.
Exactly. Kamek may look like pretty much any other Magikoopa, but he actually DOES have his own personality and they could have designed him so that he represents ALL mooks by being able to summon different ones via magic. Imagine having a magic projectile that every time you aim it into the ground or a wall, he summons either a goomba, paragoomba, troopa, paratroopa, piranha plant or bob-bomb. He could then use the bob-bomb as a secondary projectile like Bowser Jr.'s mechakoopas.
 

QQS

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Does anyone else ever shed tears when listening to Goodbye Geno from Memoria? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LoAoPulSHA It would be so emotional if that's the music played when Geno returns.
I was going to post and share the same. Love that version and yes, gives me goosebumps because all the feelings I got attached to Geno, and also my childhood + love for the character since I first played in 1996.

Not pretty sure if the song is coming in the Smash Music collection; but it has chances to appear in the CGI trailer.

I would be paid in full if they start with Let’s play Geno with the puppets scene from Smash64 intro; then Forest Maze remixed/rock with the gameplay (after the splash screen); and finally Good-bye Geno.

By the way, I was looking Rosalina trailer and maybe they can make a video following that sequence. Like for example they re-used the style of King DDD being the silhouette of King K Rool; and Duck Hunt being Banjo-Kazooie.

(If the next direct starts with galaxies or forests, I’m done).

So can you imagine if LUMA follows and stop by the FEET of Geno!? My heart would stop for a minute...

2AC5487D-3497-48F8-9BE4-CAE0B130BD0F.jpeg
 

AdamBel731

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That is quite the interesting development with the Cuphead Mii costume Spirit battle.

But honestly... I'm still not surprised. As ForsakenM ForsakenM said, the mindset that Sakurai and his team wouldn't add a character just because they're a Spirit is such flawed logic. As I've said many times, if Sakurai or Nintendo want to add a character, a little image isn't gonna stop them. "But it isn't JUST an image, there is a battle too and blah blah blah..." Okay? Again, if Sakurai or someone else REALLY want to add a character who is a Spirit, I genuinely don't think they're gonna say "Aw well shoot, looks like they're an image and have a battle, guess they're just impossible to implement..." If someone is going to make the argument that changing up the battle and how Geno's Spirit works would be "too much work," um... I hate to break it to you, but "Everyone Is Here," 100+ stages, and how much Sakurai works is an indication that Sakurai probably will find a way to give the people what thet want. Changing how a Spirit works isn't really as intensive as 100+ stages and having every Smash character return, so I don't really get the argument then...

As we've seen with so many things in Ultimate, the impossible cam become possible. "Everyone Is Here," Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, etc., so many dreams have made it into reality, no matter how you slice it. There are gonna be people who say "But that doesn't mean Spirits will be upgraded!" Yeah... I guess? But coupled with the point that Sakurai will upgrade a character if he really wants to, the fact that so many "rules" and "never-evers" have been broken really should get people to stop making up rules.

Bottom Line: If Sakurai/Nintendo/Square Enix want to upgrade Geno, one battle and a Spirit aren't gonna stop them.
 
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Firox

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That is quite the interesting development with the Cuphead Mii costume Spirit battle.

But honestly... I'm still not surprised. As ForsakenM ForsakenM said, the mindset that Sakurai and his team wouldn't add a character just because they're a Spirit is such flawed logic. As I've said many times, if Sakurai or Nintendo want to add a character, a little image isn't gonna stop them. "But it isn't JUST an image, there is a battle too and blah blah blah..." Okay? Again, if Sakurai or someone else REALLY want to add a character who is a Spirit, I genuinely don't think they're gonna say "Aw well shoot, looks like they're an image and have a battle, guess they're just impossible to implement..." If someone is going to make the argument that changing up the battle and how Geno's Spirit works would be "too much work," um... I hate to break it to you, but "Everyone Is Here," 100+ stages, and how much Sakurai works is an indication that Sakurai probably will find a way to give the people what thet want. Changing how a Spirit works isn't really as intensive as 100+ stages and having every Smash character return, so I don't really get the argument then...

As we've seen with so many things in Ultimate, the impossible cam become possible. "Everyone Is Here," Ridley, King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, etc., so many dreams have made it into reality, no matter how you slice it. There are gonna be people who say "But that doesn't mean Spirits will be upgraded!" Yeah... I guess? But coupled with the point that Sakurai will upgrade a character if he really wants to, the fact that so many "rules" and "never-evers" have been broken really should get people to stop making up rules.

Bottom Line: If Sakurai/Nintendo/Square Enix want to upgrade Geno, one battle and a Spirit aren't gonna stop them.
Amen, dude. I think we've got plenty of evidence to conclude that a PNG isn't going to be the end-all for new inclusions. It's Sakurai's game. People need to stop arrogantly assuming that their own biases and opinions are going to dictate his actions. If he wants it, he's gonna get it. Period. Granted, Spirits DID end up being a de-confirmation for FP1 due to the timing, but FP2 is literally the wild wild west. ANYTHING can happen.
 
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JarBear

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Yeah, the game "cannon" has not been broken at all even with itself or the DLC itself.

"Only Kirby survived the BEAMS OF LIGHT due to the speed of the Warp Star."
DLC characters were pretty much ok ... you don't even have to battle them or anything, they just appear in your team at some point.
"Spirits are from people/characters who lost their bodies."
There are Spirits of items and non living things.
"Only the fighters can get their bodies back, everyone else cannot be part of the physical world."
There are Pikmin spirits, but Olimar/Alph use them in battle. Also, PHYSICAL BODY Petey is part of PPlants Final Smash. Oh, and how does Mario use the FLUDD when its a spirit? Broken Meta boys and girls...

Yeah, there are no holes in the story at all. It's perfect, he certainly has painted himself in a corner so no one else can get in. So the DLC fighters we are playing as are not real, they are SUPER PREMIUM Mii costumes ... with their own slots and what not.

I can go on about the Fan Rules of why you can't use Spirits or anything else ... but that's been exhausted.

Bottom Line: People need to stop taking the base game so seriously to make "rules."
 
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SpaceCrystal

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Oh dear, this is torture at this point. I’ve just been silently watching you guys in this thread trying to get all happy about Geno in Smash for awhile now. But this days worth of posts has just been painful. It’s just the same arguments posted over and over in a loop, and every time someone in this thread asks for it to stop it just goes on and on.

It’s one thing to try and correct someone over Sora and 2B’s chances and how you think they’re more likely than others think. It’s another thing to just keep going through the same points, for the same characters, without reaching a conclusion. At this point, the arguments are starting to make less and less sense. Maybe this should be talked out privately and not across pages of a thread putting it at risk of another ban. I don’t care who started it or what, it’s time for this to stop!
Yeah, I wonder why this thread hasn't been locked at this point. Nearly 3 years & 2,430 pages of nonsense rambling, sheesh.
 
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Rangez

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B. That they are willing to adjust the content of Spirit battles based on what content you do or do not own.
Here's my thing on this particular point. If the team is willing to swap out certain things in a Spirit Battle based on if you own the DLC content or not, why are we only seeing this now with Cuphead even though they could've done this with a number of certain Spirit Battles prior? Nakoruru? Iori? Ryo?

Even with some of the returning Mii costumes from Sm4sh like Akira and MegaMan.EXE, they also could've done this adjustment with their Spirit Battles too if they wanted.
 

JarBear

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Here's my thing on this particular point. If the team is willing to swap out certain things in a Spirit Battle based on if you own the DLC content or not, why are we only seeing this now with Cuphead even though they could've done this with a number of certain Spirit Battles prior? Nakoruru? Iori? Ryo?

Even with some of the returning Mii costumes from Sm4sh like Akira and MegaMan.EXE, they also could've done this adjustment with their Spirit Battles too if they wanted.
I dunno either, to me it represents more of a "they CAN make adjustments to things IF they wanted to." Doesn't mean they have to to make "sense" of everything, but at least shows they are willing to make adjustments.
 

JarBear

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As a friendly reminder, please do not feed trolls.

Let's continue talking about our SPECULATION of GENO in the GENO SPECULATION THREAD.

If Geno is added, the "fix" the Spirit issue is to simply have the base spirit at Geno (SUPER Mario RPG). The Zelda spirits that were edited did not specify the game they were from, just the series. So simply saying something like Super Mario RPG works for the game, but also works for the RPG spin offs from that game as well I think.
 
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Geno thread, what I'm about to share could most likely be the biggest hit against Spirit deconfirmations, and Spirit battles (for both WoL and The Spirit Board).

I stumbled upon an interesting post, on Gamefaqs no less (Not sure if I can share the link here).
Anyways, what caught my attention was that Spirit Battles can be altered, specifically the fighter representing said Spirit could be switched for a different fighter.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheNintendoFeed/status/1227589841690472449
View attachment 262249
Now look closely at the pics in this tweet, what do you see?
The Cuphead spirit is being represented by Mega Man. And apparently, that same spirit battle is changed if you've purchased Cuphead's Mii costume.

Mega Man gets replaced by a Mii Gunner wearing Cuphead's costume, and the music changes to Floral Fury from whatever it was previously.

Geno, Waluigi, Isaac, Shantae, and all the characters who had a Spirit battle since base game could get theirs altered if they were chosen for Fighters Pass Vol. 2 and beyond.
Hmmmm...
HMMMMMMMMMMM...
HMMMMMITY, HMMMMMITY, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...
...
That sounds pretty cool. I should probably buy that Cuphead costume now.

This

This right here

THIS is how we win.
Not fighting what we hate... but saving what we love. :ultpacman:
 
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I'm sorry for that, but it has to be said.
I mean, it's alright. It's understandable that you want this thread to go back on track, althrough I don't think it's such a good idea to say that you want the thread to be closed because of this discussion we're having.
 

Fatmanonice

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Yeah, I wonder why this thread hasn't been locked at this point. Nearly 3 years & 2,430 pages of nonsense rambling, sheesh.
That's everywhere though. I mean... That's basically Smash speculation in a nutshell. If you think this is bad you should see the kinds of arguments that happen BETWEEN Smash games when there's virtually no news or updates to go off of.
 
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The last reply meant to say that it could had been from an unpresented series, and, well, no matter if Geno would come soon, choosing to add more Mario contents is still controversial in its own way.

As for the other point, I see that the bonus can hardly be from 3rd party.
They literally just added another FE character, so I doubt another Mario character would be near as controversial.
 

Fatmanonice

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Geno's obstacles are honestly no bigger than a good number of the characters that got in. Ridley, Dark Samus, Daisy, and Chrom were dunked on by Sakurai himself, Plant is a generic enemy, Joker's main game isn't even on a Nintendo platform, Dragon Quest is a licensing nightmare, Banjo is owned by a direct competitor, and Byleth was added despite literally checking multiple boxes for things fans absolutely didn't want more of in Smash. I don't see how people can look at characters like Plant and Banjo and still be like "Geno's totally impossible."
 
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