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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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Sorry in advance for a long one™

Yeah, I really doubt this means anything. Then again, Verge did hear Geno's name before, too, but it was only to be told that he wasn't the Square rep in the FP (which is true, as that was Hero). The fact that Geno's name keeps getting whispered fascinates me, though, and I know Sabi's old NoA source heard Geno back in November, too, right? It was still as a maybe, though.
You're right - I'm not convinced that this means anything outside of the fact that Brew has a confirmed history of guessing things that aren't Piranha Plant, but nailing the amount of DLC characters we're expecting at this point that early on is pretty big. I don't remember anyone else posting a solid number of DLC characters, especially not after they announced there would be 5, and before there was any data to mine.

Maybe it's unfair, but because he isn't some random on 4chan, I don't think T2by4 T2by4 has any reason to BS us, so I've done a 180 on my opinion of Brew; he's gone from attention seeking troll to lucky guesser. If Ryu Hayabusa actually shows up, he's gonna get elevated to "knows someone who actually leaked information".

It really sticks out to me that Verge heard Geno was leakbait but never clarified why and Sabi heard around the same time about Geno. Why specifically call Geno leakbait considering all the characters on that list were leakbait at the end of the day other than Erdrick and Luminary and even that was a bit of a smokescreen as to what Hero would actually end up being. And now we have evidence that someone with supposed insider information also heard about Geno at the same time.

So I see 2 possibilities:

1. Geno was straight up leakbait or at least was at the time of the leaks with the possibility of that being changed now that a second pass is coming
Bear with me, as I might be overthinking how leakbait works, if such a concept exists. It's been mentioned plenty here, myself included, that using one of the most popular characters to add to a fake leak, one of the most contentious characters still not in the game, to catch a leaker is full throttle ignorant. The concept would be that either the leaker or their liaison posts "my source tells me x, y and z" where x and y is true but z is essentially a land mine that uniquely identifies the leaker... but if you're leaking something and you know your job is on the line, there's no way you don't know that maybe you're getting baited. At that point, would any leaker not include fake information to further throw off the company? Like I said, the guy who guessed Terry and Ryu but got the Terry trailer all wrong - who got fired because of that? If he's just some random that won the lottery, someone losing their job over it is unfair. Using that as an example, leakbait is barely useful, because your leaker can pad their correct information with total garbage and make it look like they were taking a stab in the dark. The only way to make the bait truly effective is to make it extremely unique, and Geno is just not unique.

If Geno was used as leakbait, it was as leakbait for the first Fighters Pass.

Knowing that there would be 10 DLC characters before the game even launched raises some red flags. Sakurai mentioned back in the Banjo presentation (which was filmed in July-ish IIRC?) that it felt like the finish line was being moved further away, which would be a weird thing to say if he already knew how many fighters would be developed. The same goes for the way they unceremoniously announced the post-FP characters after Terry's reveal; why do it then?

Hopefully we'll have a clearer picture of everything after Terry gets released, but right now I'm skeptical.
2. 5 additional characters were always planned for SSBU DLC contingent on the game and its initial DLC selling well and Geno was a part of that potential FP2 plan from the beginning hence why so many people had heard whispers about him a year ago.
I think the Sakurai in a given direct is taken a little too literally. He does and says funny things for the people watching, and really, is more of a character than he is "game director Sakurai". I guess it's easy to think of a Nintendo direct as like a news report, a way for us to get updates about a game we already own, or things we're looking forward to, but they're advertisements. The wording is deliberately chosen, everything runs on a script. People call Sakurai's presentation a "livestream" sometimes, but Nintendo was open with the fact that the recording happened months ago, and there are obvious cuts as they loaded up various builds of the game to eliminate randomness and show exactly what they wanted - especially for Hero. Despite the low budget appearance, there was a good deal of production value involved in both of those presentations.

Why show that there were more fighters after Terry, if they knew there were more from the get go? Because that's good television. We were advertised 5 fighters. That's two less than Smash 4, in a game that was already packed with every character we already had, and 1 more than Smash 4 if you consider newcomers only. 5 is a convincing number to assume "that's all we're getting". Then, here we are, at the doorstep of the final character. People's hopes and dreams are on the line, everyone acts like they've never heard "AH YU OKE?", tons of people are disappointed at "Ken in a Hat" - boom.

more fighters.

Take a look at the reaction videos. Imagine how much less hype there would be in general had they said last November "ok 10 fighters on the way" and number 4 is Terry friggin' Bogard. People would shrug, move along, and wait for the next one. Since this is a fighting game, the analogy fits very well to say that we're the audience at a wrestling match. It's all story driven, but we only barely know that while we're watching - the action is real enough. Of course Sakurai's gonna say something to go along with the narrative of "here's more fighters for you", when he knows that we know that he's a workaholic. There's no way Nintendo doesn't capitalize on the fact that tons of people are legitimately worried for the man's health and want him to take a break from something that he very obviously loves doing, so he says things like "man, will I ever get a break?" or "the goalpost is moving further away". A huge chunk of the audience eats that up and some shed legitimate tears for the hell he's putting himself through. Again, it's good television. The showmanship is incredible.

I could be wrong about this, maybe Nintendo really did just come up to Sakurai right after Banjo and say "alright buddy more DLC time" and he's legitimately heartbroken that he can't take a break from this. Maybe under that desk there's a ball and chain on his leg and he's just faking that smile and good humor, but I think the aim was to not let the hype die down for as long as they plan to support the game in a big way. Just keep the updates and the characters rolling out to keep the fans happy and the late adopters able to come in to something still growing and changing. Someone mentioned a while back about how long Sakurai claims it takes to develop a character - approximately a year from the ground up, including securing the rights, and they said that would mean we wouldn't see a second wave character until September next year, which doesn't seem like Nintendo's plan here, where we're getting a new character every 3 months, give or take the average. I can't see them having that much dead zone from their latest expected date of February 2020.
 

wynn728

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Keep in mind, Vergeben said Hero would be coming to Smash Ultimate all the way back in November 2018 which is when the DLC line up for the Fighters pass was completed. Also the earliest the DLC plans were heard from according to Sakurai was way back in January 2018. Grant Kirkhope also said he had to keep Banjo & Kazooie a secret for a whole year before they were announced so it's possible Geno may still be in production for the additional DLC.
Well that begs the question now, if Geno has been hear since 2018 and they already decided on 10 DLC early on then why did they include Geno & Mallow as Spirits? I believe that a character would be a Spirit if they had no plan on using them currently, and if they already decided on the 10 fighters back in 2018 then wouldn't that actually hurt Geno's chances since that means they couldn't negotiate to use Geno and decided to put him in as a Spirit instead? Nobody would've question why there isn't a Geno Spirit at all in the base game of Smash Bros Ultimate, and if what people are saying that Sakurai was certain about having 10 DLC early on then there's a great chance that they couldn't get Geno at all.

I'm really not buying any of this and it's possible that Geno isn't getting in or that they know his costume is returning. I know there was celebration when Geno's costume didn't appear with Hero, but we had Team Rocket & Sans Mii Costume with Banjo's release so anything can actually happen.
 

DanganZilla5

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I personally am 50/50 on Geno. His Mii Costume didn't return, but that also kind of scares me. With how well the model on the Sans Mii costume is, it could very well be the case that they are taking time to improve on Smash 4's Gen costume and making it look just like Geno. Plus, while there is nothing that says that spirits deconfirm characters, there is still that chance that Sakurai gave these characters a spirit for a good reason. The good thing is that relevancy isn't a dealbreaker, as proven by Banjo, and Geno has been doing great on polls for a long time. Not to mention, Sakurai did make a big deal about pleasing the fans. So from my view, this is going to be his time, but either as a Mii Costume or playable character.
 

TheCJBrine

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Imagine if the mii costume came back as a full model swap.

Still disappointing tbh but it's better than nothing imo. I'd far prefer him to have his expressions, unique animations, and his own moves, of course.
 

Sour Supreme

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Imagine if the mii costume came back as a full model swap.

Still disappointing tbh but it's better than nothing imo. I'd far prefer him to have his expressions, unique animations, and his own moves, of course.
And recolors. I really want him to have a metal costume with a red cape and cap, to represent Smithy.
 

xpnc

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Geno is more likely than not. Would take the Mii costume coming back to convince me otherwise.
 
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Well that begs the question now, if Geno has been hear since 2018 and they already decided on 10 DLC early on then why did they include Geno & Mallow as Spirits? I believe that a character would be a Spirit if they had no plan on using them currently, and if they already decided on the 10 fighters back in 2018 then wouldn't that actually hurt Geno's chances since that means they couldn't negotiate to use Geno and decided to put him in as a Spirit instead? Nobody would've question why there isn't a Geno Spirit at all in the base game of Smash Bros Ultimate, and if what people are saying that Sakurai was certain about having 10 DLC early on then there's a great chance that they couldn't get Geno at all.

I'm really not buying any of this and it's possible that Geno isn't getting in or that they know his costume is returning. I know there was celebration when Geno's costume didn't appear with Hero, but we had Team Rocket & Sans Mii Costume with Banjo's release so anything can actually happen.
There is zero chance that they couldn't get Geno at all with what we now know about how cooperative Square was with one of their most guarded franchises. My honest theory on why Geno's spirit is in the game already if they really did have 10 DLC characters planned from as early as June 2018, is that they did it to throw people off the trail. Not just for Geno, but for other characters too. If I'm right about that, I'm willing to bet that the majority of the next 5 characters will have already been spirits, if not all of them.

I'm not really sure why people act like Sans got special treatment and why that could mean Geno's costume is getting an upgrade. Most characters, including Geno, have a human-enough face, so they get a hat or a hairpiece, and Nintendo expects you to fill in the face to the best of your ability. The remainder are obviously "costumes" and are made to be funny, like the Flying Man, Knuckles or Isabelle. Then you have people like Black Knight, Custom Robo (Ray Mk III), Skull Kid, and Spring Man - they have masks that either entirely or mostly remove the dopey Mii proportions and replace them with ways to make the character look more authentic. Sans is by no means the first to that party, and it would have honestly been weird for them to just give his hoodie and call it a day. We think he looks good because Sans was already a strangely proportioned bobble headed skeleton, but if that was what they were going for with every Mii costume, we would have gotten complete masks for every returning Mii costume.

If Geno's costume comes back, I'm 99% sure it'll be the lame one from 4, no upgrade.
 

Ovaltine

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If Geno's costume comes back, I'm 99% sure it'll be the lame one from 4, no upgrade.
I'd be disgusted if they did that. No upgrade, no satisfaction, unless they make him a fighter.

Thinking about it, I don't know if it'd even be worth it for them to upgrade Geno's costume and add him with music. Think about it. For 75c (1.25 if you got it for Wii U and 3DS), we got the costume we got in Sm4sh with no music. BtFM was licensed for the trailer, but that's it. Nothing else. Either it cost too much to license it for actual in-game inclusion, it wasn't worth it for a dying system to include it (which, arguably, holds little water, considering the 3DS was still doing well at the time), or both. So, for a 75c returning costume for Geno WITH upgrades a la Sans, they'd have to license BtFM for in-game inclusion and upgrade the already-existing costume. If we conclude that, given the 3DS was still alive and well, the music was just too pricey to justify inclusion with Geno's costume in 4, why would it be added for his costume in Ultimate? On top of that, would they really go out of their way to upgrade it like Sans' in that case for the same price as before? Sans is a pretty special case because Toby is a humble guy, surely willing to let Sakurai use Sans for a very paltry price. Square Enix is a company, and they're known for charging a nice penny.

I dunno. I feel like they'd profit more from using that dev time and music licensing to make Geno a fighter for five bucks rather than a super special costume. That's just me, though. Nintendo could easily think differently.
 

Evil Trapezium

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Well that begs the question now, if Geno has been hear since 2018 and they already decided on 10 DLC early on then why did they include Geno & Mallow as Spirits? I believe that a character would be a Spirit if they had no plan on using them currently, and if they already decided on the 10 fighters back in 2018 then wouldn't that actually hurt Geno's chances since that means they couldn't negotiate to use Geno and decided to put him in as a Spirit instead? Nobody would've question why there isn't a Geno Spirit at all in the base game of Smash Bros Ultimate, and if what people are saying that Sakurai was certain about having 10 DLC early on then there's a great chance that they couldn't get Geno at all.

I'm really not buying any of this and it's possible that Geno isn't getting in or that they know his costume is returning. I know there was celebration when Geno's costume didn't appear with Hero, but we had Team Rocket & Sans Mii Costume with Banjo's release so anything can actually happen.
Having Geno & Mallow spirits were probably all they could get from Square Enix for now. For all we know, Square Enix probably kept Geno away from Nintendo and Sakurai until after they could get Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest into the game.
 

Ovaltine

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Having Geno & Mallow spirits were probably all they could get from Square Enix for now. For all we know, Square Enix probably kept Geno away from Nintendo and Sakurai until after they could get Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest into the game.
Or the Geno rumor was just that, a rumor with no basis, or... all those sources didn't have a leg to stand on with the Geno thing back then to begin with lol. Could also be a case of, "They considered Geno, but they went with Hero. Geno's kept in consideration for future waves if they happen, though." It'd also explain the lack of the costume with Hero. Makes some sense.

In terms of the costume (less dev time and cost, same licensing costs, less monetary gain) vs. a fighter (more dev time and cost, same licensing fees, more monetary gain), it really depends on the cost vs. profit and demand. Whichever way the scale tips is likely to be Geno's fate here.
 
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AugustusB

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Catching up on the pages...It is kind of interesting that Brew (supposedly) heard about Geno in November when 'The one in the know' heard about Geno.

Once the 5th fighter is revealed, I wouldn't be surprised if we got a hint as to who is kicking off the next batch of fighters. They could do the Mewtwo approach and just have someone T-posing in all their glory. BEFORE ANYONE SAYS THEY WOULD NOT DO THAT...TERRY GOT REVEALED THEN AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR NEW FIGHTERS FOLLOWED.

Honestly, I wish Sakurai would go the Mortal Kombat XI reveal. All of the fighters that are coming are shown, no mystery, just out in the open. The only way I could see that happening is if all the next batch of fighters are 1st party. IDK just spitballing.
 
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wynn728

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There is zero chance that they couldn't get Geno at all with what we now know about how cooperative Square was with one of their most guarded franchises. My honest theory on why Geno's spirit is in the game already if they really did have 10 DLC characters planned from as early as June 2018, is that they did it to throw people off the trail. Not just for Geno, but for other characters too. If I'm right about that, I'm willing to bet that the majority of the next 5 characters will have already been spirits, if not all of them.

I'm not really sure why people act like Sans got special treatment and why that could mean Geno's costume is getting an upgrade. Most characters, including Geno, have a human-enough face, so they get a hat or a hairpiece, and Nintendo expects you to fill in the face to the best of your ability. The remainder are obviously "costumes" and are made to be funny, like the Flying Man, Knuckles or Isabelle. Then you have people like Black Knight, Custom Robo (Ray Mk III), Skull Kid, and Spring Man - they have masks that either entirely or mostly remove the dopey Mii proportions and replace them with ways to make the character look more authentic. Sans is by no means the first to that party, and it would have honestly been weird for them to just give his hoodie and call it a day. We think he looks good because Sans was already a strangely proportioned bobble headed skeleton, but if that was what they were going for with every Mii costume, we would have gotten complete masks for every returning Mii costume.

If Geno's costume comes back, I'm 99% sure it'll be the lame one from 4, no upgrade.
I was pointing out how we believe Geno is in the clear because he, as a Square Enix characters, wasn't shown with Hero and we were basing on the assumption that they would reveal Mii Costume based on the company they come from; just like how Tails & Knuckles were release with Joker.

With Banjo we got Namco, Capcom, Pokemon and Sans Mii Costume which means that they can literally show any costume with any character without it being consistent to what company they come from. So for all we know Geno Mii Costume could still come back with Terry or Ryu Hayabusa.
 

LDGno97

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Or the Geno rumor was just that, a rumor with no basis, or... all those sources didn't have a leg to stand on with the Geno thing back then to begin with lol. Could also be a case of, "They considered Geno, but they went with Hero. Geno's kept in consideration for future waves if they happen, though." It'd also explain the lack of the costume with Hero. Makes some sense.

In terms of the costume (less dev time and cost, same licensing costs, less monetary gain) vs. a fighter (more dev time and cost, same licensing fees, more monetary gain), it really depends on the cost vs. profit and demand. Whichever way the scale tips is likely to be Geno's fate here.
Maybe Geno's costume could sadly appear with the Terry's reveal? I mean, Goemon is from Konami and he appeared to be with the Banjo's character in the 3rd Mii's row. "The third wave of Mii Fighter outfits differs from the previous rounds as they are unrelated to the released character. "

Maybe Geno comes with Terry...but, this you say "costume (less dev time and cost, same licensing costs, less monetary gain) vs a fighter (more dev time and cost, same licensing fees, more monetary gain)" is key. If Geno's Mii doesn't appears with Terry or the 5th fighter, we could prepare ourselves for the big reveal?
 

Glitch-EGamer

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I was pointing out how we believe Geno is in the clear because he, as a Square Enix characters, wasn't shown with Hero and we were basing on the assumption that they would reveal Mii Costume based on the company they come from; just like how Tails & Knuckles were release with Joker.

With Banjo we got Namco, Capcom, Pokemon and Sans Mii Costume which means that they can literally show any costume with any character without it being consistent to what company they come from. So for all we know Geno Mii Costume could still come back with Terry or Ryu Hayabusa.
That doesn't make much sense though. Those would be reserved for other fighters from similar companies. Why wouldn't they just pair them with other fighters down the line then? They needed SOMETHING to fill in Banjo's slots for Mii costumes. Sonic ones went with Persona, which makes sense because Sega. Microsoft only gave Banjo, so they needed sustenance for the costume slot.

I say this with confidence: if Geno was going to get his Mii costume, it should've been with Hero. That and the chocobo hat. That will likely come back when Geno is playable.

The way I see it, it deconfirms Capcom, Nintendo, and Namco getting any reps for the pass.
 
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Ovaltine

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Maybe Geno's costume could sadly appear with the Terry's reveal? I mean, Goemon is from Konami and he appeared to be with the Banjo's character in the 3rd Mii's row. "The third wave of Mii Fighter outfits differs from the previous rounds as they are unrelated to the released character. "

Maybe Geno comes with Terry...but, this you say "costume (less dev time and cost, same licensing costs, less monetary gain) vs a fighter (more dev time and cost, same licensing fees, more monetary gain)" is key. If Geno's Mii doesn't appears with Terry or the 5th fighter, we could prepare ourselves for the big reveal?
It very well could, I agree. SNK and Koei Tecmo are close with Nintendo, though, as opposed to Microsoft being a rival company. I think that bit is key as to why Nintendo decided against negotiating for pricey costumes with Microsoft, whereas SNK and KT would probably not charge such a pretty penny. I could see SNK and KT costumes from both Terry and Ryu, maybe with Terry also bringing fighting game costumes (Jacky, Akira, and Heihachi). It's definitely still a possibility for Geno's outfit to drop with Terry or Ryu, though.
 

TheHeartbreakKid

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ARMs struggling? That doesn't make sense considering that it was the best-selling fighting game in Japan (beating the likes of SFV and DBFZ) and that it sold already 2 million copies by the end of 2018.

Truly destined to being forgotten, am I right?
All you have to do is compare ARMS support to Splatoon support. People thought ARMS was too bare bones on release, and the game barely got support. The game was just a decent seller, where Splatoon was a phenomenon.


Unpopular opinion (maybe probably yes ): I never liked the idea of Snake in Smash. He's a veteran now though so I tolerate him. Don't really know why I shared this, but I feel better now lol
I thought the exact same thing! I never liked the idea of "realistic" gun characters in Smash. Now that the roster is so diverse, I don't mind Snake, or the thought of Doomguy or Chief being added. But in Brawl, he stuck out like a sore thumb.


In terms of the costume (less dev time and cost, same licensing costs, less monetary gain) vs. a fighter (more dev time and cost, same licensing fees, more monetary gain), it really depends on the cost vs. profit and demand. Whichever way the scale tips is likely to be Geno's fate here.
I remember making a LOOONG post awhile ago basically arguing that the announcement of more DLC would tell us all we need to know about whether Nintendo was prioritizing profitability or pleasing the customer base.

At this point, there's virtually no character you could add via DLC that will sell copies of Ultimate. Anyone who hasn't been won over by this point won't be won over JUST due to a character's inclusion. HOWEVER, people conflicted about opting into a NEW Smash title, whatever title succeeds Ultimate in the future, MAY be won over because say, Rayman or Geno is in.

Strictly from a BUSINESS standpoint, adding ANY more characters to Ultimate beyond the Fighter's Pass, as opposed to using them in the future as an incentive to purchase a NEW Smash game (which, realistically, will need SERIOUS help winning people over on a smaller roster than Ultimate), is not prioritizing profit. It's not the BEST business decision.

The fact that Nintendo is even moving ahead with more DLC for Ultimate is evidence enough that profit isn't their priority here.
 

SpiritOfRuin

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I put Arle in there because I think she’s popular in Japan; I really know nothing about her aside from that.

Pheonix wright would be cool but i’m not sure if he fits in Smash. And if so I would replace Agumon with him because I don’t actually like Digimon very much but I see a decent amount of requests for him

I found the template on twitter, PapaGenos retweeted it not too long ago
How wouldn't Phoenix fit Smash? As someone who's never played AA games or know much about the character, I still think he's one of the few remaining human male characters who would be a perfect fit for Smash with a quirky and varied moveset with lots of potential for interesting mechanics.
 

wynn728

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That doesn't make much sense though. Those would be reserved for other fighters from similar companies. Why wouldn't they just pair them with other fighters down the line then? They needed SOMETHING to fill in Banjo's slots for Mii costumes. Sonic ones went with Persona, which makes sense because Sega. Microsoft only gave Banjo, so they needed sustenance for the costume slot.

I say this with confidence: if Geno was going to get his Mii costume, it should've been with Hero. That and the chocobo hat. That will likely come back when Geno is playable.

The way I see it, it deconfirms Capcom, Nintendo, and Namco getting any reps for the pass.
Well who's to say that SNK or Koei Tecmo would provide much Costumes either. With Terry I'm extreme positive that the Virtua Fighters and Tekken costumes will appear with Terry, but they don't need to theme the Mii Costume with the Fighter that's releasing. You say they needed something with Banjo, same could apply with other characters, or they don't really care about there being a theme and just put together whatever they had finished.
 

MisterMike

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How likely do people think Geno is actually?
I'm still at a solid 60/40. While nothing's certain, I think he's pretty likely. He's been highly requested for years despite not appearing in many games, he's ranked high on many a fan poll, Sakurai himself has even acknowledged his demand several times over the years, most notably with his Mii Fighter Costume in Smash 4, and even considered him for Brawl.

And that's just the stuff we know for certain. With regards to speculation, there's plenty that could hint towards his inclusion, most notably his Mii Fighter Costume not coming back alongside the release of Hero despite SquareEnix already giving them permission to use the character. Given how popular he is, it seems beyond weird that you wouldn't also bring back the costume... unless they have other plans for him, that is.

Then there's the music takedowns which, while they could be hand-waved away as a coincidence, seem way too suspect considering everything surrounding them.
- While Nintendo doesn't own those tracks, they were the ones who struck them for copyright rather than SquareEnix.
- There were exactly two songs struck for copyright, "Beware The Forest's Mushrooms" and "Battle Against An Armed Boss". SquareEnix characters that have come to Smash have only received two songs apiece, with each Dragon Quest hero counting as a separate character. Since Geno is owned by SquareEnix, it's likely he would also only receive two songs. Furthermore, the two songs that were struck are both intrinsically linked to Geno, the former being widely considered his theme song while the latter is used in your first fight with him in your party. If Geno were to get into Smash as a fighter, I could see no other two songs being included with him.
- Around the same time, two music tracks related to Banjo-Kazooie and a remix of Megalovania from Undertale, were struck for copyright by Nintendo as well, and all three of these tracks had video titles related to Smash. Both Banjo & Kazooie and Sans were later revealed to be included in Smash. Banjo & Kazooie were introduced as a fighter and came with a collection of music, and Sans was included as a Mii Fighter costume that came with a remix of Megalovania. Now while the two Super Mario RPG songs don't have anything to do with Smash per se, the circumstances are way too similar to just be a coincidence.
There's also the fact that some insiders have heard Geno's name being thrown around a bit, though no one has been able to outright confirm anything. And while this probably doesn't hint towards him at all really, Super Mario RPG not being on Nintendo Switch Online could mean that it would be added if Geno gets in to potentially get people to pay for the online, because then when they see him in Smash they'd be curious as to who he is and they'd say "If you want to see where he comes from, play Super Mario RPG on Nintendo Switch Online.". Again, doesn't mean anything, but it would be pretty neat.
 

Slime Scholar

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You're right - I'm not convinced that this means anything outside of the fact that Brew has a confirmed history of guessing things that aren't Piranha Plant, but nailing the amount of DLC characters we're expecting at this point that early on is pretty big. I don't remember anyone else posting a solid number of DLC characters, especially not after they announced there would be 5, and before there was any data to mine.
Do we actually know there are 10 DLC characters yet? How can we even say he's nailed anything in that regard? The only thing confirmed so far is that the Fighter's Pass isn't the end-- unless I'm missing something.

It's true, Sakurai's words are carefully chosen, scripted or no, but I'm inclined to take them at face value. The "goal is sliding further away" line (which was repeated in a Famitsu column) may not be worth getting hung up on, but I think it is. He's also talked about wanting to push the record further and work on the game as long as he can, which implies that future DLC doesn't have a definitive end yet. The narrator in the direct used the line "outside the five fighters included in the fighter's pass we can confirm other new fighters are in development" which, to me, suggests that it wasn't the plan from the start, although I suppose you could chalk that up to being "good television."

With that said...
Take a look at the reaction videos. Imagine how much less hype there would be in general had they said last November "ok 10 fighters on the way" and number 4 is Terry friggin' Bogard. People would shrug, move along, and wait for the next one.
I don't buy this for a minute.

There's no denying that some characters will generate bigger reactions (hype) than others, and I'm sure Nintendo is aware of this to an extent, but I highly doubt they announced post-FP fighters alongside Terry to assuage a negative reaction to him. Frankly, I don't think they anticipated him having a negative reaction, beyond what other characters have received, the same way they don't expect to see people throwing fits over Mii costumes or Assist Trophies. If they did, he probably wouldn't even be in the game.
 

Rie Sonomura

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That doesn't make much sense though. Those would be reserved for other fighters from similar companies. Why wouldn't they just pair them with other fighters down the line then? They needed SOMETHING to fill in Banjo's slots for Mii costumes. Sonic ones went with Persona, which makes sense because Sega. Microsoft only gave Banjo, so they needed sustenance for the costume slot.

I say this with confidence: if Geno was going to get his Mii costume, it should've been with Hero. That and the chocobo hat. That will likely come back when Geno is playable.

The way I see it, it deconfirms Capcom, Nintendo, and Namco getting any reps for the pass.
When did Namco get a new/returning DLC Mii costume? Capcom had the Proto Man Mii costume return and Nintendo has had the Rex Mii costume at the start of the pass, but I haven’t seen the Heihachi, Lloyd or Gil (Tower of Druaga) costumes return yet, or potentially new Namco costumes like KOS-MOS, Dig Dug, Nightmare or Solaire of Astora
 
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Aerospherology

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I was pointing out how we believe Geno is in the clear because he, as a Square Enix characters, wasn't shown with Hero and we were basing on the assumption that they would reveal Mii Costume based on the company they come from; just like how Tails & Knuckles were release with Joker.

With Banjo we got Namco, Capcom, Pokemon and Sans Mii Costume which means that they can literally show any costume with any character without it being consistent to what company they come from. So for all we know Geno Mii Costume could still come back with Terry or Ryu Hayabusa.
Goemon is Konami.
 

Evil Trapezium

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Do we actually know there are 10 DLC characters yet?
We do have the 16 Attack slots datamine that now function as the new World of Light dummy slots. Papagenos talked about this in his October Smash Speculation video a few weeks ago. However this may all change with Terry Bogard's release.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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We do have the 16 Attack slots datamine that now function as the new World of Light dummy slots. Papagenos talked about this in his October Smash Speculation video a few weeks ago. However this may all change with Terry Bogard's release.
I have a crazy theory: the “attack” slots correspond to Kirby’s Copy Ability moves when copying each DLC character
 

Evil Trapezium

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I have a crazy theory: the “attack” slots correspond to Kirby’s Copy Ability moves when copying each DLC character
Not a bad theory. It at least gives us an idea of what it's purpose could be for.
 
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Glitch-EGamer

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Well who's to say that SNK or Koei Tecmo would provide much Costumes either. With Terry I'm extreme positive that the Virtua Fighters and Tekken costumes will appear with Terry, but they don't need to theme the Mii Costume with the Fighter that's releasing. You say they needed something with Banjo, same could apply with other characters, or they don't really care about there being a theme and just put together whatever they had finished.
There is a pattern, even if it's a small one. The character usually comes with accompanying costumes from franchises owned by said company.

That's what I'm saying. They could easily pull other costumes, yes, but why wasn't the Chocobo hat or Geno costume used for Hero's release? It's very clear that not all the costumes we get will be returning. They added new costumes from companies already represented in the base game and possibly not the DLC. I'm not saying it deconfirms reps from companies already in Smash but I am saying that they can pull new franchises whenever they please. Heck, they could ask for a Klonoa costume to go with Terry if they wanted because of the lack of theming. It's not the idea that all the costumes have to be properties the company who has the fighter for that number own but the idea that we are getting ones to fill in the blanks for companies who may not want to have other properties as costumes. If Geno was getting a costume, it makes no sense why it wouldn't have been with the Square-Enix rep unless he was playable or not going to happen. Why bother holding it off for so long if Hero's already out and we aren't getting any other appropriate fighters for Geno and Chocobo's costumes?
 
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Rie Sonomura

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Man I just realized

if that’s true, then Mamiko Omoto (Kirby’s VO, who also voices Ness) must have one fat paycheck, she keeps coming back to voice Kirby’s DLC copy attack cries
 

Firox

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it makes no sense why it wouldn't have been with the Square-Enix rep unless he was playable or not going to happen. Why bother holding it off for so long if Hero's already out and we aren't getting any other appropriate fighters for Geno and Chocobo's costumes?
This is why I keep saying that it's all or nothing at this point. It doesn't make sense for Sakurai to acknowledge Geno with a Sm4sh Mii costume and then simply choose to omit it from Ultimate. He KNOWS how much people want him and the Mii Costume already exists so, again, we have only three possible scenarios:

1) Geno gets in for real

2) The costume comes back (possibly revamped) with a second SE DLC rep

3) Sakurai and Nintendo decided to give the fanbase the middle finger and deny them even the already existing costume for literally no conceivable reason.

Scenario 3 would make ZERO sense whatsoever, even from a simple cash-grab point of view. They would literally be wasting money by NOT doing it. That leaves us with scenarios 1 and 2, with (in my opinion) a slightly higher chance of number 1. To be honest, if SE got another rep, it would likely be either Tifa or Sephiroth, which would get me stoked AF either way. I call that a win-win for any scenario except for 3.
 

wynn728

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There is a pattern, even if it's a small one. The character usually comes with accompanying costumes from franchises owned by said company.

That's what I'm saying. They could easily pull other costumes, yes, but why wasn't the Chocobo hat or Geno costume used for Hero's release? It's very clear that not all the costumes we get will be returning. They added new costumes from companies already represented in the base game and possibly not the DLC. I'm not saying it deconfirms reps from companies already in Smash but I am saying that they can pull new franchises whenever they please. Heck, they could ask for a Klonoa costume to go with Terry if they wanted because of the lack of theming. It's not the idea that all the costumes have to be properties the company who has the fighter for that number own but the idea that we are getting ones to fill in the blanks for companies who may not want to have other properties as costumes. If Geno was getting a costume, it makes no sense why it wouldn't have been with the Square-Enix rep unless he was playable or not going to happen. Why bother holding it off for so long if Hero's already out and we aren't getting any other appropriate fighters for Geno and Chocobo's costumes?
I got a simple solution for that, they want the focus to only be on Dragon Quest. Sakurai & Square Enix probably know that people were going to be disappointed when that Geno Mii Costume shows up after all the negative reaction appeared with characters being turned into Assist Trophies and how Rex was shown as a Mii Costume (look at RogersBase on how devastated he was during that, a guy who usually has hype reactions). It's clear that with Hero in Smash Bros they were trying to sell western audience on getting into Dragon Quest, so they would want Hero's reveal video be extremely positive to the series with nothing that the Smash Bros fans will latch onto with a negative reaction. Show Geno as a Mii Costume with Hero and there would be a lot of complaints which could be directed at the Dragon Quest series since people would associate it with Geno's deconfirmation for the third time.

We seen memes and art of K. Rool & Simon beating up Ashley for getting deconfimed. We seen Incineroar knocking out Banjo, Isaac and Shadow. We seen Piranha Plant laughing at all the deconfirmed characters. Square Enix wants Dragon Quest to be presented in a great light so many people would get into it, and Sakurai seems to have that same track of mind by having Smash Bros keep promoting Dragon Quest XI S. They don't want anything negative to be taken away from it's inclusion so they would want to present it in a vacuum where nothing is mentioned at all. If you don't have any characters associated with Hero then you won't get the complains that Geno is deconfirmed.
 

GenoFlash

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My theory is that Geno was just going to be a Mii costume again, but the decision on a second Fighter Pass means he was either promoted to playable character status or they're gonna give him a new Sans-style costume. I really can't see a scenario where Nintendo doesn't bother reselling the Mii costume unless it sold very poorly.

Personally I'm fine with Geno getting in as a Gunner costume. I'd much rather prefer him playable obviously, but it'd still be a nice little acknowledgement of his enduring popularity.
 
D

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You know, I agree with Serenade01. Sans is a skeleton after all, which makes perfect sense to have his own mask. You can literally look up full head skull masks all over the internet for Halloween. A skull mask could’ve of been a Mii mask in the first place since Smash 4. So I don’t know how Geno could work an overhead mask like Sans.
 
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Glitch-EGamer

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I got a simple solution for that, they want the focus to only be on Dragon Quest. Sakurai & Square Enix probably know that people were going to be disappointed when that Geno Mii Costume shows up after all the negative reaction appeared with characters being turned into Assist Trophies and how Rex was shown as a Mii Costume (look at RogersBase on how devastated he was during that, a guy who usually has hype reactions). It's clear that with Hero in Smash Bros they were trying to sell western audience on getting into Dragon Quest, so they would want Hero's reveal video be extremely positive to the series with nothing that the Smash Bros fans will latch onto with a negative reaction. Show Geno as a Mii Costume with Hero and there would be a lot of complaints which could be directed at the Dragon Quest series since people would associate it with Geno's deconfirmation for the third time.

We seen memes and art of K. Rool & Simon beating up Ashley for getting deconfimed. We seen Incineroar knocking out Banjo, Isaac and Shadow. We seen Piranha Plant laughing at all the deconfirmed characters. Square Enix wants Dragon Quest to be presented in a great light so many people would get into it, and Sakurai seems to have that same track of mind by having Smash Bros keep promoting Dragon Quest XI S. They don't want anything negative to be taken away from it's inclusion so they would want to present it in a vacuum where nothing is mentioned at all. If you don't have any characters associated with Hero then you won't get the complains that Geno is deconfirmed.
Going to have to challenge that claim. Geno being a costume alongside Hero's release wouldn't have hurt Hero's presentation. People came to see Hero and were disappointed/excited regardless because of his controversial gameplay. Geno would've been the same way: he would disappoint some and excite others. Geno is another way to make money. I highly doubt they'd have cared about releasing the costume alongside Hero over something that would have the same result regardless of who it was presented with.
 
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D

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I'd be disgusted if they did that. No upgrade, no satisfaction, unless they make him a fighter.
To be fair, if he isn't a full fighter, I'm gonna be disgusted either way. No mii costume, good mii costume, crap mii costume - it's been long enough. Square's got their moneymakers, give us the damn doll action figure.

I was pointing out how we believe Geno is in the clear because he, as a Square Enix characters, wasn't shown with Hero and we were basing on the assumption that they would reveal Mii Costume based on the company they come from; just like how Tails & Knuckles were release with Joker.

With Banjo we got Namco, Capcom, Pokemon and Sans Mii Costume which means that they can literally show any costume with any character without it being consistent to what company they come from. So for all we know Geno Mii Costume could still come back with Terry or Ryu Hayabusa.
I think people have said it already, but Nintendo wasn't going to bother licensing a bunch of crap from their competitor for Mii Costumes. That's the simplest explanation for why Banjo came with mixed bag costumes. Terry's probably gonna come with some King of Fighters characters and I would be really surprised if a Metal Slug costume doesn't make it in. #5 being up in the air as they are, I'm not gonna make any predictions. Geno's costume is currently in the clear by conventional logic.

Do we actually know there are 10 DLC characters yet? How can we even say he's nailed anything in that regard? The only thing confirmed so far is that the Fighter's Pass isn't the end-- unless I'm missing something.

It's true, Sakurai's words are carefully chosen, scripted or no, but I'm inclined to take them at face value. The "goal is sliding further away" line (which was repeated in a Famitsu column) may not be worth getting hung up on, but I think it is. He's also talked about wanting to push the record further and work on the game as long as he can, which implies that future DLC doesn't have a definitive end yet. The narrator in the direct used the line "outside the five fighters included in the fighter's pass we can confirm other new fighters are in development" which, to me, suggests that it wasn't the plan from the start, although I suppose you could chalk that up to being "good television."

With that said...
I don't buy this for a minute.

There's no denying that some characters will generate bigger reactions (hype) than others, and I'm sure Nintendo is aware of this to an extent, but I highly doubt they announced post-FP fighters alongside Terry to assuage a negative reaction to him. Frankly, I don't think they anticipated him having a negative reaction, beyond what other characters have received, the same way they don't expect to see people throwing fits over Mii costumes or Assist Trophies. If they did, he probably wouldn't even be in the game.
My mind's all over the place nowadays but didn't the WoL slots total up to ten additional characters, after Plant? Obviously anything can change but if it was ten slots and he got it, he hit the nail on the head. Even if it was more, I'll give him credit for the ballsy guess after 5 were announced and before any datamining got done.

As for the timing of the additional fighters announcement, I wasn't saying it was done purely to assuage a negative reaction to Terry. My assertion was that since we were nearing the end, it made the announcement feel more like a relief, or icing on the cake if Terry is your dream character, than it would have been if they had told us ten from the start and we weren't even halfway done. It feels like that's just basic human psychology, to be pumped up that you've gotten what is essentially a second chance, if your favorite hasn't made it in yet, and to be just as pumped up when you got everything you wanted for your birthday, there's still some gifts on the table not yet unwrapped, and then your parents bring out more presents.
 

wynn728

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Going to have to challenge that claim. Geno being a costume alongside Hero's release wouldn't have hurt Hero's presentation. People came to see Hero and were disappointed/excited regardless because of his controversial gameplay. Geno would've been the same way: he would disappoint some and excite others. Geno is another way to make money. I highly doubt they'd have cared about releasing the costume alongside Hero over something that would have the same result regardless of who it was presented with.
Do we not remember celebrating when we didn't see Geno's Mii Costume with Hero? Let's be honest, we would've been very disappointed had Geno shown up in that video and there would've been many memes like Hero setting Geno on fire or using Thwack on him had it happen. Sakurai most likely did not what that negativity to be associated with Dragon Quest, so they try to eliminate all opportunities that could lead to that by just having the entire video focus only on Dragon Quest. We still have people believe that Geno has a chance, but if that costume was shown with Hero then people would associate Geno deconfirmation with Hero. We seen this time and time again. We know that this crap happens. They probably got that message after receiving all those call about how Isaac got deconfirmed. It's not that difficult to understand that the Smash Community is just a trash fire that mocks everyone when given the opportunity, so in order to not get that controversy of Geno being deconfirmed when trying to promote another series you just save it for later.
 

ivanlerma

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This is why I keep saying that it's all or nothing at this point. It doesn't make sense for Sakurai to acknowledge Geno with a Sm4sh Mii costume and then simply choose to omit it from Ultimate. He KNOWS how much people want him and the Mii Costume already exists so, again, we have only three possible scenarios:

1) Geno gets in for real

2) The costume comes back (possibly revamped) with a second SE DLC rep

3) Sakurai and Nintendo decided to give the fanbase the middle finger and deny them even the already existing costume for literally no conceivable reason.

Scenario 3 would make ZERO sense whatsoever, even from a simple cash-grab point of view. They would literally be wasting money by NOT doing it. That leaves us with scenarios 1 and 2, with (in my opinion) a slightly higher chance of number 1. To be honest, if SE got another rep, it would likely be either Tifa or Sephiroth, which would get me stoked AF either way. I call that a win-win for any scenario except for 3.
i actually want Tifa now after hearing this.
 

wynn728

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I think people have said it already, but Nintendo wasn't going to bother licensing a bunch of crap from their competitor for Mii Costumes. That's the simplest explanation for why Banjo came with mixed bag costumes. Terry's probably gonna come with some King of Fighters characters and I would be really surprised if a Metal Slug costume doesn't make it in. #5 being up in the air as they are, I'm not gonna make any predictions. Geno's costume is currently in the clear by conventional logic..
Okay... If we're going be like "There's a pattern on how these Mii Costume release work, but the third reveal doesn't count," then it's not a pattern. If we got a mix bag of costume for one character then we can get a mix bag with another character. There is no pattern when it's only worked out 2 out of 3 times. For all we know when Terry is released there is no SNK costume and we get some of the Namco costume and Monster Hunter costumes as well. We can't make an exception to a pattern and still call it a pattern.
 
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Going to have to challenge that claim. Geno being a costume alongside Hero's release wouldn't have hurt Hero's presentation. People came to see Hero and were disappointed/excited regardless because of his controversial gameplay. Geno would've been the same way: he would disappoint some and excite others. Geno is another way to make money. I highly doubt they'd have cared about releasing the costume alongside Hero over something that would have the same result regardless of who it was presented with.
Yeah I'm pretty sure that there's not enough of us Geno fans out there to have just completely ruined Hero's presentation by including him there. Obviously it would make me way saltier about Hero getting in, but by now, even I would have gotten over it.

We can't make an exception to a pattern and still call it a pattern.
The English language would like to have a word with you.

I don't even remember using the word "pattern", it's 2 out of 3 so far, it's a statistical likelihood. When it becomes 3/4 and 4/5 will it be a pattern with an exception? I think so. Really, if there's no pattern, why didn't they go ahead and drop the Geno costume on us next to Sans? That's two "niche" characters that would have been killed right then and there, with the exception that the costume actually made Sans fans happy since that's more than he deserved they ever expected.
 
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