Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[Hydreigonfan01]

It’s the 1st anniversary of the Grinch Leak today. It’s been 1 year since that fiasco.

 

[Deleted member]

It’s the 1st anniversary of the Grinch Leak today. It’s been 1 year since that fiasco.

It's not though? That's not for what another week and a couple days? From what I remember it happen on October 21st of last year.

That's misinformation wherever you found that from.

 

[N3ON]

I always think this is such a weird hypothetical though. Like in 2019 there's somehow a massive but for all intents and purposes silent subset of the Smash audience that not only doesn't frequent more specialized forums like Smashboards, but also sites like Youtube, Reddit, and Twitter? I mean say what you will about Smashboards, but Reddit, Twitter, and Youtube are (along with Instagram and Facebook) the most frequently used social media sites and websites period in the world. You literally cannot get more mainstream than them. And yeah the Smash community is a proportionally small subsection of those sites, but the fact is they really don't exist in a bubble in and of themselves. People who play videogames and are even vaguely interested in Nintendo stuff are exposed to SSBU news and discussion about new characters whether they life it or not. And it really doesn't take that much for those people to put their two cents in when it comes to who'd they'd like to see in the game.

If you're saying the "overall" Smash population between not only this site but all of those other social media sites, where big polls and discussions happen frequently and get huge amounts of votes, is not accurately being represented by all of said polls and discussion then I can't help but disagree. Also, I really don't get the semantics behind calling it a "Smash" bubble when realistically it's a "Nintendo" bubble. Most people if they are into Nintendo games are also into Smash or at least have opinions about who should/shouldn't get in the game. If anything its arguably one of the most perpetually talked about things in the entire Nintendo fanbase. And with that being the case I just fundamentally do not believe that there's some massive portion of people who have bought SSBU and have even slightly significant feelings as to what characters should make it in as newcomers yet for whatever reason haven't made those feelings known on the internet in some form.

Just because someone enjoys Smash and then goes on reddit doesn't mean they're going to talk about Smash. Just because you enjoy something and use a site, doesn't mean you use that site for that thing. If they're not using any site to operate within the community, they still count as the silent majority.

I would assume everyone here has played a game in which they've not delved into that community's diehard fanbase afterwards. That is what's being suggested here. The Smash Bubble excludes everyone who has played Smash and then not dove into its online community. Watching a trailer here and there does not make you part of the bubble. You might be a fan, but you're outside the community. I mean, being exposed to Smash content online doesn't even ensure you bought the game. There's a BotW trailer that has more views than the game has sales. And, as with every piece of content that isn't just some super deep cut cult darling, which Smash isn't, the more passive consumer outnumbers the diehards. By a lot, typically.

And trends within a diehard portion of the fanbase will differ from the exterior. In the case of Smash, the diehard fanbase familiarizes itself with what it considers every plausible candidate, many of which are niche and obscure. And by definition, more casual consumers will, on average, be far more unfamiliar with things that are niche. You'll have a person here and there that played an older/less prevalent game, but without being part of the discussion, you're not going to get wrapped up in the swarm.

Out there, past the bubble, it's more a case of big name characters and recognizable faces, as they're prolific enough to reach large audiences without the need for congregation.

 

[Deleted member]

What's with all this debate and arguing when more likely than not Sakurai and Nintendo's decision process is just: "Oh what about _____! Wouldn't that be cool?" come on now it's not that deep!

 

[N3ON]

What's with all this debate and arguing when more likely than not Sakurai and Nintendo's decision process is just: "Oh what about _____! Wouldn't that be cool?" come on now it's not that deep!

If that's the case, pretty crazy how Sakurai's opinion over who would be cool almost always coincides with working top down both within a series, and also with which first-party series in general are chosen.

*coughs*

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

So while we wait for Geno or any other smash news, what do you all think of Luigi's Mansion 3? I honestly think the game looks way too bright and cheery for what is supposed to be a game with a more sinister/spooky theme. It makes the flashlight look too out of place, you can already see everything in the room without it. That would be like having your car's headlights on the highest setting in broad daylight.

That's certainly a valid opinion. I loved the original Luigi's Mansion. When I played the second one, I was at first very disappointed by it, but for some reason, when I replayed it down the line, I found it much more enjoyable. I tried to appreciate it for what it was instead of trying to make it feel just like the original and when I did that I realized the charm and positive points of the new direction it took even though I still found the original much better, I was able to appreciate the sequel more than I had before. Brightness isn't really an issue for me as long as the game keeps the slightly dark charm of the series. From what I've heard, this game has a lot more secrets and stuff that makes it more fun to explore even if it is linear and I'm excited because I've heard only good things about this game.

 

[Rohanx17]

I tried to love dark moon harder than any game in history because the idea of more luigi's mansion seemed like a child's pipe dream but eventually i just had to throw in the towel and accept that this wasn't it. I mean this is just the sort of thing that happens when you ask an entirely new group of people to work on a 13 year old game they have no history with on totally different hardware. 3 really makes it seem like they want to try but with the way it was all implemented it seems like they don't really understand what made the 1st so great and either committed to their "style" or the higher ups are forcing it because of how picky they are about how the Mario brand is portrayed.

To tie this in to our main topic, I really can't help but have a sort of adversarial view of Nintendo and the miyamoto vision because everytime they go out and make something that wows me, ttyd,luigi's mansion, strikers,ect. It always gets canceled or sterilized. If SMRPG had continued and become the one true rpg series I wonder what would have happened to it. Simplified like sticker star?, crushed by tutorials and hand holding like dream team? I wonder if it even would have stayed with square and we would have all ended up in the exact same boat we are in right now with content rights.

 

[Deleted member]

I went back and played the original Luigi's Mansion not too long ago and while it has aged well from a graphical standpoint (which is rare for games from that era), I got bored really quickly. I remember thinking the game was amazing and nearly flawless back when I was 11, but playing it again, something just felt really off. Can't say it felt too easy, since I barely ever took damage in it or got lost or anything back when I first played it. I don't even know how to describe why I don't like it, I just don't anymore.

To tie this in to our main topic, I really can't help but have a sort of adversarial view of Nintendo and the miyamoto vision because everytime they go out and make something that wows me, ttyd,luigi's mansion, strikers,ect. It always gets canceled or sterilized. If SMRPG had continued and become the one true rpg series I wonder what would have happened to it. Simplified like sticker star?, crushed by tutorials and hand holding like dream team? I wonder if it even would have stayed with square and we would have all ended up in the exact same boat we are in right now with content rights.

Video games in general are trending towards being simplified, handholdy, vapid, dime a dozen "experiences" rather than a game that presents itself as having a win and loss condition, and even if the N64 Disc Drive had become the next phase of the hardware's life and Square and Nintendo stayed together, the only thing that would change about this reality is that we'd be on Super Mario RPG 6 or 7 by now and it would have suffered at the hands of Miyamoto's endless quest to come up with new ways to integrate motion controls or whatever gimmick comes to him in a dream, and to make it as accessible as possible. The only thing that would save any potential timeline from the general state of video games now is if back in 2007/2008 there was no casual explosion where the people who were shoving gamers into lockers in middle and high school suddenly loved Pokemon and Mario and had "totally been fans all their lives".

Not to bring doom and gloom into the thread but with Nintendo's recent discovery of just how much money you can get peddling gacha titles on a phone, it's only a matter of time before video games are all digital trips to a cleverly disguised casino. We'll finally get Geno back only to have to play 1 in 10,000 odds to pull his doll out of a crane game so that the completely separate Geno (Star Spirit) that we got at a 1 in 2500 chance out of a Celestial Lockbox can inhabit him and he can finally join our party in Super Mario RPG World Let's Take A Hike Pocket Edition.

 

[Rohanx17]

I went back and played the original Luigi's Mansion not too long ago and while it has aged well from a graphical standpoint (which is rare for games from that era), I got bored really quickly. I remember thinking the game was amazing and nearly flawless back when I was 11, but playing it again, something just felt really off. Can't say it felt too easy, since I barely ever took damage in it or got lost or anything back when I first played it. I don't even know how to describe why I don't like it, I just don't anymore.

It doesn't lend itself well for replayability that's for sure. A lot of what made it wow me was playing it for the first time as a kid and not having any idea what was going to happen next and letting your imagination run wild. Once your no longer distracted by that the gameplay and progression itself can come off as really repetitive and stale. Playing it now makes it feel like I'm just filling out a checklist of set events rather than exploring a mansion. Ive always staved it off with outside elements of sharing it with new people and then aiming for higher performances without just resetting. I've noticed a lot of single player games from the past have varying degrees of this, it might just come with the change in perspective being an adult today brings.

 

[Firox]

This. Sakurai obviously chooses DLC characters based upon how many supporters their SmashBoards thread has.

Yeah, don't think for a second that some online polls or even mountains of fan mail are going to magically change Sakurai's mind if he's already decided on the DLC. Just when you think popular demand is guaranteed to sway his hand, he'll do what he always does, which is often nothing that you'd expect.

"SEE, Sakurai?! Look at all this Geno support! We've got polls! We've got fan fiction! We've got art, and plushies, and petitions, and cosplayers and—"

(Out plops Chain Chomp)

"............."

(Vergenben): "See guys?! I predicted that back in 2008!"

 

[Deleted member]

It doesn't lend itself well for replayability that's for sure. A lot of what made it wow me was playing it for the first time as a kid and not having any idea what was going to happen next and letting your imagination run wild. Once your no longer distracted by that the gameplay and progression itself can come off as really repetitive and stale. Playing it now makes it feel like I'm just filling out a checklist of set events rather than exploring a mansion. Ive always staved it off with outside elements of sharing it with new people and then aiming for higher performances without just resetting. I've noticed a lot of single player games from the past have varying degrees of this, it might just come with the change in perspective being an adult today brings.

I think describing it as repetitive and stale is really the word I was looking for. Something that makes a lot of single player games worth going back and playing again is the fact that now that you know what to expect, you can optimize your gameplay, or try it differently (especially if the game has multiple win conditions in a given instance, that even if they don't change the ending, may change some flavor text). It's a ton of fun to go back and do minimalist runs of something like Metroid or Mega Man X, or to try out glitches and speedrunning tactics. I've played Super Mario Bros, Mario 64, Link to the Past, Metroid, Super Metroid, Mega Man X, almost every Mega Man Battle Network, and Mother 3 longer than some multiplayer games I own because it's super fun to go try something new, path differently, challenge myself, etc.

Luigi's mansion is always going to be the same every run through, with the same path, the same abilities the whole game, I can either capture every ghost by vacuuming every nook and cranny, or ignore the like... 5(?) optional ghosts and go beat the pushover final boss. For what it's worth, I did play Luigi's Mansion through several times just to see how much money I could get, but that gets old after a while, too.

Yeah, don't think for a second that some online polls or even mountains of fan mail are going to magically change Sakurai's mind if he's already decided on the DLC. Just when you think popular demand is guaranteed to sway his hand, he'll do what he always does, which is often nothing that you'd expect.

"SEE, Sakurai?! Look at all this Geno support! We've got polls! We've got fan fiction! We've got art, and plushies, and petitions, and cosplayers and—"

(Out plops Chain Chomp)

"............."

(Vergenben): "See guys?! I predicted that back in 2008!"

+1 for Vergeben revisionism

 

[SKX31]

Video games in general are trending towards being simplified, handholdy, vapid, dime a dozen "experiences" rather than a game that presents itself as having a win and loss condition, and even if the N64 Disc Drive had become the next phase of the hardware's life and Square and Nintendo stayed together, the only thing that would change about this reality is that we'd be on Super Mario RPG 6 or 7 by now and it would have suffered at the hands of Miyamoto's endless quest to come up with new ways to integrate motion controls or whatever gimmick comes to him in a dream, and to make it as accessible as possible. The only thing that would save any potential timeline from the general state of video games now is if back in 2007/2008 there was no casual explosion where the people who were shoving gamers into lockers in middle and high school suddenly loved Pokemon and Mario and had "totally been fans all their lives".

Not to bring doom and gloom into the thread but with Nintendo's recent discovery of just how much money you can get peddling gacha titles on a phone, it's only a matter of time before video games are all digital trips to a cleverly disguised casino. We'll finally get Geno back only to have to play 1 in 10,000 odds to pull his doll out of a crane game so that the completely separate Geno (Star Spirit) that we got at a 1 in 2500 chance out of a Celestial Lockbox can inhabit him and he can finally join our party in Super Mario RPG World Let's Take A Hike Pocket Edition.

Beyond the slippery slope (beware of it for a good reason), a lot of the same complaints ring true of the ol' Arcade experiences. Sure, you had your Pac-Man and Street Fighter II, but then you also had your "Game over, Insert Another Quarter" (which serves the save purpose as any pay wall) and often combining that with extremely difficult gameplay - loads of game overs if you're not pro at the game. Thus, lots of quarters fed. Okay, console games didn't have the quarter problem, instead it was "rent or buy a game for 20 or 60 bucks, with very little idea of how good the game is beyond word of mouth (and print mags / strategy guides if you or a pal you know bought them!)"

As an important aside, people were spamming Pong clones back in the 70s, after it established the arcade blueprints. Nintendo's first ever video game - a Pong clone - is now an AT (okay, technically the second, but the difference is slight at best).

If anything the current microtransaction focused industry is not "companies discovering new ways to monetize games, often to the detriment of consumers", it's "companies finding out that mobile games can be monetized in similar ways as the ol' arcades." Of course, many companies have figured out that making it too difficult will turn off 99 % of people - as opposed to the kids / adults flocking to the arcades way back when. But you also want the mobile title to have a long life span a la Angry Birds. So microtransactions became a thing because it's easy to put in.

Again, companies rely on expanding or at least keeping a steady stream of money going. And if one random corp (Atari back in the arcade days, Rovio with the mobile) suddenly finds the megabucks with a great / addictive title? Of course other corps are gonna flock to that!

Not justifying, pointing out that A) History rhymes, and B) The video game industry has always been at least 90 % or so corporate. Back in 2007 / 08 one of the biggest complaints was Activision spamming Guitar Hero titles... And Valve's TF2 provided one of the microtransaction blueprints with loads of cosmetic hats.

The fact that companies look to monetize shouldn't be a be-all-end-all measure of the industry as a whole. I'm not justifying companies' actions neccessarily, it's not healthy to just be doom-and-gloom. Consumers, no matter if casual or hardcore, have points where they won't bother with a game at all. Companies are not invurnerable behemoths, and no matter what men like Bobby Kotick thinks most companies avoid going to far (or retreat when they sense pushback) because humans with their strengths and flaws make up corporations.

 

[SSGuy]

I think describing it as repetitive and stale is really the word I was looking for. Something that makes a lot of single player games worth going back and playing again is the fact that now that you know what to expect, you can optimize your gameplay, or try it differently (especially if the game has multiple win conditions in a given instance, that even if they don't change the ending, may change some flavor text). It's a ton of fun to go back and do minimalist runs of something like Metroid or Mega Man X, or to try out glitches and speedrunning tactics. I've played Super Mario Bros, Mario 64, Link to the Past, Metroid, Super Metroid, Mega Man X, almost every Mega Man Battle Network, and Mother 3 longer than some multiplayer games I own because it's super fun to go try something new, path differently, challenge myself, etc.

Luigi's mansion is always going to be the same every run through, with the same path, the same abilities the whole game, I can either capture every ghost by vacuuming every nook and cranny, or ignore the like... 5(?) optional ghosts and go beat the pushover final boss. For what it's worth, I did play Luigi's Mansion through several times just to see how much money I could get, but that gets old after a while, too.


+1 for Vergeben revisionism

Literally Sakurai has to have a single digit iq to add in Chain Chomp after he added in Piranha Plant. I still feel like he is a stain on the character screen. Just a giant joke made for dumb players.

 

[StarBot]

Literally Sakurai has to have a single digit iq to add in Chain Chomp after he added in Piranha Plant. I still feel like he is a stain on the character screen. Just a giant joke made for dumb players.

Also isn’t Chain Chop already a AT?

 

[SSGuy]

Also isn’t Chain Chop already a AT?

That's what would make the decision that much worse. It doesnt just become a jab at us, it would be a jab at other ATs too lol

 

[Deleted member]

Literally Sakurai has to have a single digit iq to add in Chain Chomp after he added in Piranha Plant. I still feel like he is a stain on the character screen. Just a giant joke made for dumb players.

We absolutely have got to forgive the Plant, man. It isn't that big of a deal. Like I've said before, it isn't like Sakurai had that moveset in mind and weighed whether Geno or Plant should have it. I honestly believe it's moveset first, character second.

Also isn’t Chain Chop already a AT?

*Sakurai rubbing hands together*
"Assist trophies can't become playable in the same game? I'll show them..."

 

[Rohanx17]

I think describing it as repetitive and stale is really the word I was looking for. Something that makes a lot of single player games worth going back and playing again is the fact that now that you know what to expect, you can optimize your gameplay, or try it differently (especially if the game has multiple win conditions in a given instance, that even if they don't change the ending, may change some flavor text). It's a ton of fun to go back and do minimalist runs of something like Metroid or Mega Man X, or to try out glitches and speedrunning tactics. I've played Super Mario Bros, Mario 64, Link to the Past, Metroid, Super Metroid, Mega Man X, almost every Mega Man Battle Network, and Mother 3 longer than some multiplayer games I own because it's super fun to go try something new, path differently, challenge myself, etc.

Luigi's mansion is always going to be the same every run through, with the same path, the same abilities the whole game, I can either capture every ghost by vacuuming every nook and cranny, or ignore the like... 5(?) optional ghosts and go beat the pushover final boss. For what it's worth, I did play Luigi's Mansion through several times just to see how much money I could get, but that gets old after a while

I think a lot of it is personal taste, your description of going back to mansion is just like mine going back to Mario 64, except that game looks awful too. I actually found myself digging it again once I changed my focus mentally strictly to the ghostbusting. It made the experiance itself feel hollow but playing for gold frames was still enjoyable enough for sharing the experiance with friends. The exchange reminds me a lot of fishing games where you need to be in control of a lot of subtle nuances to maintain control of the situation and make the ghosts dance to your beat and not theirs. On top of that having to be aware of you surroundings to keep from slamming into a table or get sucker punched by other mobs always kept the game in motion. The game might be piss easy to beat but getting perfect can be difficult on several bosses because of all the hazards you need to keep track of on top of adjusting your movement to their every twist so you don't lose your leverage and eat carpet.

 

[SSGuy]

We absolutely have got to forgive the Plant, man. It isn't that big of a deal. Like I've said before, it isn't like Sakurai had that moveset in mind and weighed whether Geno or Plant should have it. I honestly believe it's moveset first, character second.

I can't ever accept that character or that community unless Geno gets in as well. Nothing personal but Plant just sucks. Any Mario mook over Geno just looks embarrassing given what Ultimate was lining up to be.

 

[Ovaltine]

I can't ever accept that character or that community unless Geno gets in as well. Nothing personal but Plant just sucks. Any Mario mook over Geno just looks embarrassing given what Ultimate was lining up to be.

Dude, Plant is first party and Geno is third party. They're in entirely different leagues. Plant didn't 'take Geno's spot' or anything of the sort. Come on.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I can't ever accept that character or that community unless Geno gets in as well. Nothing personal but Plant just sucks. Any Mario mook over Geno just looks embarrassing given what Ultimate was lining up to be.

We got a creative and interesting moveset out of it in a super unique fighter. If we get Geno, then at the end of the day Piranha Plant was only a great addition.

And IMO, they were a great addition regardless.

 

[Rohanx17]

I could have accepted plant if they made him the dhalsim-like the trailer made me think he could be. The final product just felt kinda bland tbh.

Something cheeky like making him have to only jump because he's in a pot would have been really funny but honestly I forget he's even in the game half the time.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I like Piranha Plant.

I thought it was funny and it’s fun to play.

I’d definitely choose another character over it, though, if Sakurai asked me who should be in Smash. I still wouldn’t have minded if he included it anyway, though (and honestly I’d likely be interested in seeing what he’d do with it); I don’t take the roster so seriously aside from wanting to see my favorite characters get in - but I don’t get mad if they don’t, just disappointed. I don’t blame Sakurai or Nintendo or, strangely, characters that got in, like “this character stole X’s slot even though they’re not related and/or they’re well-liked by many! I hate them and their fans!” Something like “why would you spend development time on a common enemy instead of a character people wanted?” I understand, though, but I don’t completely agree; I mean, I was a Goomba supporter.

I don’t want to go through another Plant argument though.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't ever accept that character or that community unless Geno gets in as well. Nothing personal but Plant just sucks. Any Mario mook over Geno just looks embarrassing given what Ultimate was lining up to be.

I get it. The trailer sure looked like a certain someone was going to come save the Mario heroes from whatever got them, and to see Piranha Plant be the character that came out of it, it felt bad. I was livid. I was glad that Plant "is bad". Then? I got over it. If not because it's weird to obsessively hate that specific character for not being Geno any more than the rest of the roster, then to stop myself from getting tilted if I happen to lose to one.

I just can't, in sound logic, come up with a scenario where it was Piranha Plant or Geno, and Sakurai went with Piranha Plant. I don't think we were robbed, purposefully mistreated or disgraced in any way aside from the haters having more ammo, that's fine, they were gonna hate us either way. Troll culture and this franchise are inseparable and that's ok. We'll get our day, or maybe we won't, no amount of funposting is going to really change it, I don't think.

But you know, take your time, deal with it as you need to.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Literally Sakurai has to have a single digit iq to add in Chain Chomp after he added in Piranha Plant. I still feel like he is a stain on the character screen. Just a giant joke made for dumb players.

Just stop...

 

[wynn728]

The only way to make Piranha Plant acceptable is if the next batch of DLC are fan requested characters. We can agree that this current Fighters Pass is specifically for Sakurai when we have Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard; so if the DLC was going to focus majority of his picks then Piranha Plant inclusion will always feel like an "F U" to fan requested characters like Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Waluigi, Skull Kid, ect. who didn't make it in and where given terrible treatement like being an Assist Trophy or a Sprite. The next patch of DLC needs to at the very least give the fans a bone. If we can get more fan requested characters as DLC then Piranha Plant inclusion will be alright, because at this point we'll always look at Piranha Plant and ask "Why did they waste such little time they had to include a character nobody asked for while everyone else get's shafted?"

Also I think we can drop that Piranha Plant inclusion was Sakurai's dream project when he has Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard.

 

[Deleted member]

The only way to make Piranha Plant acceptable is if the next batch of DLC are fan requested characters. We can agree that this current Fighters Pass is specifically for Sakurai when we have Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard; so if the DLC was going to focus majority of his picks then Piranha Plant inclusion will always feel like an "F U" to fan requested characters like Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Waluigi, Skull Kid, ect. who didn't make it in and where given terrible treatement like being an Assist Trophy or a Sprite. The next patch of DLC needs to at the very least give the fans a bone. If we can get more fan requested characters as DLC then Piranha Plant inclusion will be alright, because at this point we'll always look at Piranha Plant and ask "Why did they waste such little time they had to include a character nobody asked for while everyone else get's shafted?"

Also I think we can drop that Piranha Plant inclusion was Sakurai's dream project when he has Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard.

Look on the bright side, if it's really Sakurai's pass then Geno's a shoe-in for spot 5. At least we know we're guaranteed to not get a Fire Emblem or Pokemon character.

 

[Ovaltine]

Look on the bright side, if it's really Sakurai's pass then Geno's a shoe-in for spot 5. At least we know we're guaranteed to not get a Fire Emblem or Pokemon character.

Just gonna say it right now, but I sincerely think that anyone expecting Geno to be the fifth Fighter's Pass character is going to be sorely disappointed.

Now, additional DLC, on the other hand, if his costume doesn't drop with Terry and character 5 (which seems unlikely to me, all things considered)...

 

[StarLight42]

The only way to make Piranha Plant acceptable is if the next batch of DLC are fan requested characters. We can agree that this current Fighters Pass is specifically for Sakurai when we have Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard; so if the DLC was going to focus majority of his picks then Piranha Plant inclusion will always feel like an "F U" to fan requested characters like Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Waluigi, Skull Kid, ect. who didn't make it in and where given terrible treatement like being an Assist Trophy or a Sprite. The next patch of DLC needs to at the very least give the fans a bone. If we can get more fan requested characters as DLC then Piranha Plant inclusion will be alright, because at this point we'll always look at Piranha Plant and ask "Why did they waste such little time they had to include a character nobody asked for while everyone else get's shafted?"

Also I think we can drop that Piranha Plant inclusion was Sakurai's dream project when he has Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard.

It's funny because, as a huge Mario fan myself, I actually wanted to see one of it's generic enemies make it in to the roster. I was banking on Goomba because it would've been hilarious and they could make an unironically great moveset for him. But Koopas are pretty great too... You really can't say either of those characters aren't deserving to be in the game.

Piranha Plant...on the other hand, kind of just made me feel crappy for even wanting one of these types of characters. It was funny for the troll factor but once that wore off it became clear to me that one of the most mindless and forgettable enemies was going to be the only one to be promoted to a Smash character. Even Hammer Bro. promoted from AT would've been super cool. Piranha Plants in the main games just don't do as much compared to the other enemies, and while I appreciate the TTYD reference, reaching that far to find a movepool kind of outlined to me how this character was a mistake.

My least favorite Smash character. I even like Corrin to some degree, but Plant is just ...ugh. Didn't help that Incineroar was the character revealed right before.

Again, all just my opinions. I'm sure there are some Geno fans who also love the Piranha Plant, so it's whatever. At the end of the day, it's just one roster spot out of like 80+ at this point

 

[wynn728]

Look on the bright side, if it's really Sakurai's pass then Geno's a shoe-in for spot 5. At least we know we're guaranteed to not get a Fire Emblem or Pokemon character.

I'm always on the fence of whether Sakurai really wanted Geno or not. I'm extremely positive that Geno isn't the fifth fighter since his Spirit is in the game (I believe Spirits were chosen with the knowledge of who the first five DLC fighters are and with no concrete plans of if they were going to make more afterwards). I feel like if Sakurai really wanted Geno then he would've happen already, but we got Hero instead. If anything there might've been an agreement between Square and Sakurai that they would put Hero in to promote the crap out of Dragon Quest XI S and in return maybe Geno get's added in the next patch of DLC. Until I see it actually happens I don't buy Sakurai's words that he always wanted to include Geno but couldn't do it after given three chances.

 

[Sour Supreme]

The only way to make Piranha Plant acceptable is if the next batch of DLC are fan requested characters. We can agree that this current Fighters Pass is specifically for Sakurai when we have Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard; so if the DLC was going to focus majority of his picks then Piranha Plant inclusion will always feel like an "F U" to fan requested characters like Geno, Isaac, Shadow, Waluigi, Skull Kid, ect. who didn't make it in and where given terrible treatement like being an Assist Trophy or a Sprite. The next patch of DLC needs to at the very least give the fans a bone. If we can get more fan requested characters as DLC then Piranha Plant inclusion will be alright, because at this point we'll always look at Piranha Plant and ask "Why did they waste such little time they had to include a character nobody asked for while everyone else get's shafted?"

Also I think we can drop that Piranha Plant inclusion was Sakurai's dream project when he has Joker, Hero and Terry Bogard.

The lapse in judgement here is thinking they have to make anything "acceptable" for us. I haven't a gripe against the Plant. I'm certain he was a fun and relieving project for members of Ultimate's dev team. Never forget that he was almost certainly base roster, so he really isn't anything to complain about unless you were someone who complained about Duck Hunt in 4, R.O.B in Brawl, etc. You see what I'm getting at? It's also unfair to call this a Sakurai pass. I don't know if that homie would ever choose Banjo on his own. And if you think that B-K is the only fan-pick in the Fighter's Pass, its because you only belong to that fandom.

Bottomline is I would be grateful if Sakurai dropped a bag of dirt. To say that Sakurai is shamelessly projecting his desires onto the roster and nothing else is ignorant, I must say.

 

[Firox]

Dude, Plant is first party and Geno is third party. They're in entirely different leagues. Plant didn't 'take Geno's spot' or anything of the sort. Come on.

You're not wrong, but to be fair, one could easily argue that Plant took the spot of several more pronounced first party characters instead. Not including Waluigi or Krystal's ATs, you've got Birdo, Toad (or Capt Toad/Toadette if you prefer), any of Zelda's BotW Champions, Dixie (or any other of the Kongs), a plethora of Kirby characters, etc. I'd say the primary issue people have with Plant is that when you compare them to the roster as a whole, they obviously stand as an underwhelming addition. Literally every other character represents an entire game/frachise as a main protagonist, antagonist, or major supporting role. When you sit the thing beside the likes of Cloud, Megaman, Bayonetta, Ryu, Fox McCloud, Ridley, King K rool, etc. its like listing "John Smith from Hodunk, Idaho" beside a bunch of A-list actors. The moveset is definitely fun and original, but as a gamin icon? Many would say it stands apart from all the others for multiple reasons.

Now, I not going to get into the full breakdown because we've been down this road before, but I'm just saying that there are valid reasons why some people feel cheated by PP. If you're cool with it, that's A-OK, but I would ask that we don't dismiss the feelings of others too easily, especially when Smash bros slots are so valuable and there are so many characters yet to be represented. In the same vein, I ask that we not go full bash on PP either since it really serves no constructive purpose at this point. Like it or not, it got in, but so did Cloud, B-K and many other legends as well. Sakurai giveth and Sakurai taketh away. We'll just have to deal with the outcome.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Personally, I really enjoy Piranha Pant. In fact, no joke, he might actually be my best character even though I main Simon. His moveset just really jives with me and he has some pretty good tools that produce some replay-worthy moments. At the time of his announcement I was just disappointed that the Grinch leak was fake. I quickly embraced Plant and with the announcement of more DLC fighters, I can't be mad, even though as you can tell by my signature, there are still a lot of characters I want.

EDIT: I do understand that other people might be disappointed because it does take away time and resources that could be given to another character.

 

[wynn728]

It's funny because, as a huge Mario fan myself, I actually wanted to see one of it's generic enemies make it in to the roster. I was banking on Goomba because it would've been hilarious and they could make an unironically great moveset for him. But Koopas are pretty great too... You really can't say either of those characters aren't deserving to be in the game.

Piranha Plant...on the other hand, kind of just made me feel crappy for even wanting one of these types of characters. It was funny for the troll factor but once that wore off it became clear to me that one of the most mindless and forgettable enemies was going to be the only one to be promoted to a Smash character. Even Hammer Bro. promoted from AT would've been super cool. Piranha Plants in the main games just don't do as much compared to the other enemies, and while I appreciate the TTYD reference, reaching that far to find a movepool kind of outlined to me how this character was a mistake.

My least favorite Smash character. I even like Corrin to some degree, but Plant is just ...ugh. Didn't help that Incineroar was the character revealed right before.

Again, all just my opinions. I'm sure there are some Geno fans who also love the Piranha Plant, so it's whatever. At the end of the day, it's just one roster spot out of like 80+ at this point

It was all bad timing because during that Direct when they revealed Incineroar and Piranha Plant they always deconfirmed a lot of characters (majority of them being fan favorites which was more salt being rubbed on the wound). What else makes Piranha Plant inclusion stings bad was Sakurai's comment "Pirahna Plant joins the battle, but not as an Assist Trophy." That comment cements the fact that they know Assist Trophies are garbage, so no one can make the argument that Assist Trophies are great when the creator of the game push them down to be consider insignificant in comparison to Piranha Plant being playable. Which means that video segment of all your favorite character at the very least being included as Assist Trophies was Sakurai and his team throwing them into garbage cans.

Sakurai just needs to get a better understanding about his fanbase, and it a little bit shows that they are paying attention by saying more DLC is happening after revealing Terry Bogard. He's cool and all but people were getting disappointed when you only have two fighters left and Terry was one of them.

 

[SpiritOfRuin]

Ugh I thought we moved past this PP talk and judging other characters and fanbases. I think I'm gonna take a break from this thread for a little bit. I just hate when we go down this road. I'll see you all later.

 

[Deleted member]

Just gonna say it right now, but I sincerely think that anyone expecting Geno to be the fifth Fighter's Pass character is going to be sorely disappointed.

Now, additional DLC, on the other hand, if his costume doesn't drop with Terry and character 5 (which seems unlikely to me, all things considered)...

Good thing I don't expect him, I just don't discount him. The only thing we know for sure right now is that when Reggie said "characters, like Joker, that you'd never expect to be playable in Super Smash Bros.", he meant it, and to be honest, as much of a fan of Geno as I am, and as much as I want him to be playable, I was done expecting anything after he didn't make base roster this game.

Sakurai giveth and Sakurai taketh away. We'll just have to deal with the outcome.

More like Sakurai giveth, and Sakurai giveth some turds, too."

 

[Ovaltine]

Bottomline is I would be grateful if Sakurai dropped a bag of dirt. To say that Sakurai is shamelessly projecting his desires onto the roster and nothing else is ignorant, I must say.

Oh my god, I almost thought you said you'd be grateful if Sakurai dropped LIKE a bag of dirt. I was about to have a heart attack and a total freaking fit. Someone get me a chair, I need to sit down.

(That being said, it wouldn't have been the first time I'd seen someone make a remark like that about Sakurai due to the roster, which is... just incredibly sad.)

You're not wrong, but to be fair, one could easily argue that Plant took the spot of several more pronounced first party characters instead. Not including Waluigi or Krystal's ATs, you've got Birdo, Toad (or Capt Toad/Toadette if you prefer), any of Zelda's BotW Champions, Dixie (or any other of the Kongs), a plethora of Kirby characters, etc. I'd say the primary issue people have with Plant is that when you compare them to the roster as a whole, they obviously stand as an underwhelming addition. Literally every other character represents an entire game/frachise as a main protagonist, antagonist, or major supporting role. When you sit the thing beside the likes of Cloud, Megaman, Bayonetta, Ryu, Fox McCloud, Ridley, King K rool, etc. its like listing "John Smith from Hodunk, Idaho" beside a bunch of A-list actors. The moveset is definitely fun and original, but as a gamin icon? Many would say it stands apart from all the others for multiple reasons.

Now, I not going to get into the full breakdown because we've been down this road before, but I'm just saying that there are valid reasons why some people feel cheated by PP. If you're cool with it, that's A-OK, but I would ask that we don't dismiss the feelings of others too easily, especially when Smash bros slots are so valuable and there are so many characters yet to be represented. In the same vein, I ask that we not go full bash on PP either since it really serves no constructive purpose at this point. Like it or not, it got in, but so did Cloud, B-K and many other legends as well. Sakurai giveth and Sakurai taketh away. We'll just have to deal with the outcome.

I can get that, really. I guess I'm not as bothered since I'm particularly chill about first parties, so I'm pretty biased, admittedly. If I had to replace Plant with another Mario character (that is first party and in a similar position), though? It would have been Shy Guy all the way, baybee! Shy Guy has SO MUCH MOVE SET POTENTIAL and, just... how can you not like Shy Guys?!?

Until I see it actually happens I don't buy Sakurai's words that he always wanted to include Geno but couldn't do it after given three chances.

To be completely fair, it's pretty easy to see why Sakurai hasn't included Geno yet.

Brawl? Square and Nintendo were still on very rocky terms, and they were only just now starting to get a bit chummy again. I can see why Square wouldn't have wanted to cooperate back then.
Sm4sh? Ultimate's project plan was being penned in, and there wasn't time for any additional DLC characters. They didn't have the time to add Geno to begin with.
Ultimate's base game and season pass DLC? Cloud was pricey enough to get as a base game character, and given PP was possibly planned for base, it tells me that they didn't have time to add Geno, even if they wanted to. (There's also the rumors about Hero being planned for base game, too, but they're just that: rumors.) On top of it all, Nintendo chose the DLC, so Geno might not have been a priority yet. On top of that, Sakurai had his chance to finally include Japan's biggest gaming phenomenon, so it's no wonder Geno may have gotten the back seat to make way for Hero. It's a choice Nintendo and Sakurai wouldn't pass up in their right minds.

Now, we're in the additional DLC phase. Square and Nintendo seem to be working together very happily again. They have a lot more time on their hands with Ultimate's DLC, given it's the wild west right now until the Switch heads for retirement, which isn't happening ANY time soon. That was the big issue, as I can imagine, with Sm4sh and, in part, Ultimate's base game. Budget probably played a factor in the base game, as well, given how much they had to dump into getting Cloud back.

As I see it, the only obstacle at this point is whether or not Nintendo will choose to add Geno. If it was totally up to Sakurai at this point, I'd feel like it's more than likely his time. With Nintendo, it's a bit more up in the air. Given they added B-K, though, I do have hope. After all, B-K don't benefit Nintendo in ANY way beyond fan appeal. Geno strikes that same fan appeal stone, too, but he's also a Mario character. While B-K don't represent anything Nintendo profits off of anymore, Geno is part of Nintendo's most profitable, mascot franchise. It does give him that little extra oomph, and I wouldn't underestimate that. B-K have fan demand, whereas Geno has fan demand AND some franchise marketability. On top of that, it's even more money for SE, and we know they love money.

Basically, it's a matter of whether Nintendo will choose Geno and find him worth the cost to satisfy demand. I wouldn't be too worried about cost, given we've gotten the spirit and Mii costume, but Nintendo will Nintendo. We just have to wait and see.

 

[DanganZilla5]

Speaking of Reggie's quote, do you all think Sakurai did a good job of picking characters "you would never expect to be in Smash?" I personally think so. Hero was expected, but Banjo seemed to be 50/50 maybe a bit over 50% and barely anyone I saw considered a SNK character to have a great shot.

 

[TheCJBrine]

My problem with saying they’re not pleasing fans is just these characters have clear fans, too, including Dragon Quest (even if it may have been partly for Square to promote it in the West, it’s clear Sakurai wanted to please DQ fans with what he did and some stuff that was said; and, it’s the biggest series in Japan, so...). Heck, each new reveal gets a bunch of memes and other stuff showing popularity if social media says anything.

 

[Rohanx17]

Whether he was honest or spinning the question for good pr geno will always have a chance as long as we keep pushing. If Ridley can do it so can we.

Also I don't see how people memeing = popularity as much as people like to be cheeky and obnoxious.

 

[Firox]

More like Sakurai giveth, and Sakurai giveth some turds, too."

I mean, if we're being honest here, ANYONE he picks will get flamed by SOMEBODY. It's like they say, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please ALL the people ALL the time." If any one of us could go back in time and switch places with Sakurai, do you honestly think you could churn out 80+ characters and not come up with at least one dud? Even if you thought the roster was God's gift to the world, you'd have people on some random smash bros forum (hehehe) screaming about what a charlatan you are.

SakuraiTheDestroyerOfWorlds598: "NANI?! The developer of smash bros, (place your name here), is such a whimsical hack! He put Falco in the game even though we already have a guy with 'Falcon' in his name! Sono otoko wa kanzen ni bakadesu!"

If I had to replace Plant with another Mario character (that is first party and in a similar position), though? It would have been Shy Guy all the way, baybee! Shy Guy has SO MUCH MOVE SET POTENTIAL and, just... how can you not like Shy Guys?!?

100% agree with this.