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Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

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EricTheGamerman

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
3,197
Yeah, the Banjo thread hasn't really been all that hostile. It's mostly just been conversation about realistic chances of characters and how Banjo's situation differs from Geno's since someone tried to establish more of a false equivalency between the two. There might be some more pessimistic comments with regards to Geno there, but eh, that's really something I feel like we should be more used to by now. No one is attacking Geno fans or even Geno himself beyond a couple of people still using "side-character" to describe him.

And, the ResetEra info makes sense. I've always thought there was a good chance we'd get a surprise Echo drop at some point, and that would align well with that theory of mine. Extra characters beyond the Fighter's Pass would hopefully increase Geno's chances. In that event you could argue bringing in Geno as a standalone and another franchise as the "headliner" so to speak. It'd be cool to see a stage with Geno, but we really don't need one either.
 

Justin Little

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
677
I listed Diddy as B-tier. A High-B or low-A is equal to or greater than him.

I did not rate Diddy as A-list because his popularity rides on the popularity of the Donkey Kong franchise. Diddy Kong Racing wasn't even a genre defining game for kart racing games like Banjo-Kazooie was for 3D platformer collect-a-thons.

When you think of kart racers? You typically think of Mario Kart. Most have to be reminded that Diddy Kong Racing existed (Lord knows I loved that game, too). When you think of 3D platform collect-a-thons, you think of Mario & Banjo-Kazooie. It's not just the sales numbers, which I used as an example of people exposed to the information. It's the legacy left behind.

For instance, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow outperformed Castlevania: Symphony of the Night sales-wise. Guess which one is the more highly regarded, more beloved, and generally more well-known? Symphony of the Night is the one that left a legacy; re-defining the genre of an entire series.

Another example is the Metroid series: Metroid Prime is the best seller of the series, yet it is Super Metroid that gets more attention. It left a greater legacy. Of course, nowadays the lasting impact of that legacy is being called into question as Metroid Prime has definitely come into its own as a legacy title.

One last example is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time vs The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess destroyed Ocarina in sales, yet it was OoT that's considered the game that left the legacy, defined the genre... that is, until Breath of the Wild stepped in and took those reigns. Slaughtering TP in sales and taking the crown from OoT as the defining game of the series.

Diddy Kong follows in the wake of Donkey Kong's legacy, and Donkey Kong is immensely popular (He's High A-list, after all). After the first game Banjo was in—Diddy Kong Racing, as previously mentioned—he entered his own game and created a legacy all his own that kept pace with even Mario. Banjo managed to do with Diddy what Mario did with Donkey Kong. Now, had Rareware never been taken over by Microsoft, I guarantee you the history of the series would've been vastly different. Banjo-Threeie probably would've been a good game... but Diddy Kong Racing DS probably still would've been vastly ignored as the inferior version of that game.

Now, I must make an addendum to my last post on the topic. I stated Captain Falcon was a B-lister. I was wrong. He is C-list; no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You see, I had still allowed Smash to paint my understanding of the character's popularity, even just a tiny bit. Captain Falcon's popularity is almost exclusively because of Smash... which makes him C-list. He didn't get in Smash because he was popular, he was popular because he got in Smash. (This applies to a decent number of characters, honestly.)

You see, our perception of a character's popularity is actually tainted because of Smash Bros, since Smash automatically makes any character that enters its gates an A-lister. It treats every newcomer like a king and creates legacies for characters who might not have had any on their own. Eventually, the character Joker would've been put away with the rest of the Persona series protagonists as the series goes on. But now that he joined Smash, he's become a LEGEND. The legend that you fear Immortal in the annals of gaming history. If Joker wasn't A-list before, he certainly is now. We have to be careful and not let the Smash auto-A-list corrupt our interpretation of a character's popularity and recognition.

People were happy that Diddy got into Smash, there was a great crowd that were pleased to see him join. However, the entire gaming hemisphere might explode if Banjo gets announced. His legacy means so much more.
Diddy Kong has a Nintendo hat. Checkmate!



Both are awesome and S Tier characters to me anyways. Diddy means more to me, some of the DKC fans that would tell you he's been playable more than DK has, and probably the 5-9 million players who've played the DKC series but fan rankings are all arbitrary and personal anyways.
Diddy Kong Racing ****s all over Mario Kart any day of the week, though.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
I don't see why the site being easy to add characters to is a big deal. Like, no **** Sherlock, why would they program it to be hard?
 

Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
I don't see why the site being easy to add characters to is a big deal. Like, no **** Sherlock, why would they program it to be hard?
I suppose it could've had a set limit, if they'd known in advance exactly how many characters were going to end up in.
(which a lot of people might've thought 5 after piranha plant)

So at least we know there wasn't that. I dont think it's too big of a deal either besides that.
 

GoodGrief741

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
10,169
I suppose it could've had a set limit, if they'd known in advance exactly how many characters were going to end up in.
(which a lot of people might've thought 5 after piranha plant)

So at least we know there wasn't that. I dont think it's too big of a deal either besides that.
Even if they were planning to only do the 5 characters and had strict plans to not do any more, I still don't see why they would go out of their way to program a set limit for the website.
 

Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
Even if they were planning to only do the 5 characters and had strict plans to not do any more, I still don't see why they would go out of their way to program a set limit for the website.
Well, like the stage list gets into some problems after adding some ( i dunno how many) and there isn't that problem with the fighters, so while it's not much I guess people like to think that there could be echos and stuff like that.

I think you're right tho. It's just some people like to think it means more. (I think we'd all like more :D)
 

Justin Little

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
677
Geno, Dixie Kong, and Bandana Dee should surely make it in the second character pass. Maybe even add Waluigi and Isaac. It will be known as the "Appealing to the Great (and Sometimes Ungrateful) Smash Crowd" pass!
 

Sovereign Trinity

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
852
The stuff being added to Minecraft is actually pretty good imo, and it's all Mojang's doing, though some devs for the Bedrock Edition add some things that take forever before they're added to the Java Edition, and of course the Bedrock Edition's microtransactions were likely Microsoft's doing...

I wish Mojang would add an option for Beta terrain and even older terrain...
Minecraft was ruined for me when 1.9 came out.

I played MC back when it was in alpha and beta, and I honestly consider those versions to be superior than the ****show we have now. I think the alpha and beta is superior to all the versions because it was simple, even if it didn't have a lot to offer compared to now,and it was still fun and they were my prime days for MC; the alpha and beta was outstanding and 1.0-1.8 was great, but more unnecessary stuff to me started being added and the game lost its spirit for me. I was in a time when MC had a decent community, and it's unfortunately now considered one of the most toxic communities ever. Gosh, I miss those old MC days. I miss the beta terrains, too, CJ. :/
What do y'all think is the hardest item to obtain in SMRPG?

For me, it's the Star Egg.
It depends, but I got three:
1. The Cricket Pie, only because I thought it was optional and ended up getting me stuck in the game for a long time.
2. The Fertilizer, because how were we supposed to know to walk off the side of Nimbus Land in order to find one of Valentina's guards with the fertilizer? I would have a higher chance at finding this thing if it was on accident, as if I dropped my controller and my floor and it moved the joystick/Mario to the right of my screen all the way.
3. The Star Egg, and it was a ***** to get and I only got it in one save file out of all the times I've played the game; it's easy to beat SMRPG without it.
Chief is going back to a more classic looking design in Halo: Infinite. So we probably won’t ever see the Halo 4/5 Armor again.
I don't know if that was Chief in the trailer, assuming it was, but let's hope we don't see that armor ever again. It didn't make sense for 343 to change his armor while he was in the cryo-chamber.

By the way, looking forward to Infinite! Hopefully it's like a mix of Halo 2, Halo 3, and Reach.
 

GrungeMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
168
Diddy Kong has a Nintendo hat. Checkmate!



Both are awesome and S Tier characters to me anyways. Diddy means more to me, some of the DKC fans that would tell you he's been playable more than DK has, and probably the 5-9 million players who've played the DKC series but fan rankings are all arbitrary and personal anyways.
Diddy Kong Racing ****s all over Mario Kart any day of the week, though.
As a fellow Diddy main. Your post gives me so much life haha

I really hope we get a DKR reunion between Diddy, Conker, and Banjo in smash.
 

TheCJBrine

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
12,054
Location
New World, Minecraft
Minecraft was ruined for me when 1.9 came out.

I played MC back when it was in alpha and beta, and I honestly consider those versions to be superior than the ****show we have now. I think the alpha and beta is superior to all the versions because it was simple, even if it didn't have a lot to offer compared to now,and it was still fun and they were my prime days for MC; the alpha and beta was outstanding and 1.0-1.8 was great, but more unnecessary stuff to me started being added and the game lost its spirit for me. I was in a time when MC had a decent community, and it's unfortunately now considered one of the most toxic communities ever. Gosh, I miss those old MC days. I miss the beta terrains, too, CJ. :/
yeah; I think Minecraft is still great and I generally like everything they've added, though they do seem to have made it easier (Creepers stop walking when fusing and don't side-step while walking towards you anymore, and the hunger bar + stacked foods can be argued to have made it a lot easier) and I can understand 1.9 ruining the feel of the game for people, at least in PvP servers (though they can easily bring back spam-clicking even in 1.9 thanks to NBT data). I still get nostalgia for when I first played the game in Beta 1.5; it was very nice, playing a simple survival game, learning how to use mods at some point, and all that, even when I've met some mean individuals in some servers.

I don't really get the whole toxic view the fanbase has, though; most people I see are nice and respectable, though there are some rude people every now and then, especially in PvP games in multiplayer; Minecon is a bit annoying with how it's not exactly family-friendly, though, as it ignores older members of the family (including older children or teens) instead of having a fair balance, so I guess things like that could've given a certain image to the fanbase. I personally still find the game to still be simple somewhat, but it has definitely gotten more complex compared to before.

y'know, while I say I like everything they've added, I did have a problem with the hunger bar when it was first added, but then I got used to it and thought it was fine. I also thought they ruined the terrain before getting used to it; not that I hated the new terrain, it was actually fine and it had some cool stuff, even now, but it definitely can't compare to before since it's very generic between worlds and such.
 
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Ovaltine

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
yeah; I think Minecraft is still great and I generally like everything they've added, though they do seem to have made it easier (Creepers stop walking when fusing and don't side-step while walking towards you anymore, and the hunger bar + stacked foods can be argued to have made it a lot easier)
They... fixed those? What? What??

I may have to revisit that game sooner rather than later, what the hell. (Also it has bunnies now and I cannot resist bunnies :sadeyes:)
 

Sovereign Trinity

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
852
And Krystal, Skull Kid, Bomberman, Zero, and Shovel Knight.
Especially Krystal, a highly wanted character from Brawl speculation.
Krystal and Geno were two on the old 2006 Brawl poll, so it'd be nice seeing those two in. From my point of view, I find Krystal more interesting than Wolf.
 

RetrogamerMax

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 3, 2018
Messages
12,221
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
RetrogamerMax2
Especially Krystal, a highly wanted character from Brawl speculation.
Krystal and Geno were two on the old 2006 Brawl poll, so it'd be nice seeing those two in. From my point of view, I find Krystal more interesting than Wolf.
I wish she got in Brawl instead of Wolf honestly. Brawl was her only chance to get in the roster outside the use of the Smash Ballot. I hope her Assist leads to her finally being included in the roster in a future Smash.
 

Ovaltine

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
3,905
Especially Krystal, a highly wanted character from Brawl speculation.
Krystal and Geno were two on the old 2006 Brawl poll, so it'd be nice seeing those two in. From my point of view, I find Krystal more interesting than Wolf.
I personally don't enjoy Krystal much as a character, but in terms of move set potential, I do think she has a lot of neat stuff to bring to the table. Besides, her inclusion would make lots of people happy, and that's a-ok in my book!
 

Sovereign Trinity

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 11, 2018
Messages
852
So, a small write-up on how I perceive Geno's chances. It isn't a huge one, but it's a compilation of everything that has gone on at this point and my final thoughts on the matter at this point in time. Let's see here:

WHAT HELPS GENO'S CHANCES
★ The biggest thing he has going for him is that Sakurai has mentioned him in an interview prior to Ultimate, which I'm sure you are all aware of by now. Firstly, he acknowledges that Geno was 'very popular' in the ballot. Secondly, he stated that he has wanted Geno since Brawl, something that couldn't happen for reasons he has not disclosed. However, he gave us the Mii outfit in Sm4sh (the only one that received a splash screen and a HUGE amount of fanfare, mind) because he wanted the fans to at least feel like he got something. This last bit also hurts Geno's chances, but I won't get ahead of myself here.
★ Super Mario RPG got a Super Mario Kun segment in 2013, showing that he is, at the very least, remembered by both Square and Nintendo. While it was rather belated, likely due to Square's and Nintendo's poor relationship prior, it finally happened.
★ The SNES Classic was released in September and October of 2017 in all regions. Of the 20-summat games included, Super Mario RPG just so happened to be one of them. In May 2018, quite a few months after to promote the SNES Classic and pretty shortly before they stopped its production, Nintendo of America acknowledged SMRPG's anniversary on Twitter with the #TeamMallow and #TeamGeno tweet.
★ Prior to The Game Awards of 2018, an HQ Trivia quiz sponsored by Nintendo appeared for their smartphone mobile app. Super Mario RPG was not only name-dropped, but Geno himself also was, being the focus of a trivia question among ten. Considering this is starting while TGA is getting attention and at the beginning of Ultimate's DLC reveal cycle (given TGA revealed Joker officially), it's a point of interest.
★ Super Mario RPG has been getting multiple references in Smash Ultimate. Piranha Plant's classic mode image references the Super Mario RPG commercial in Japan, whereas Megasmilax, Smilax, and Chewies are mentioned in its guidance. Along with that, Piranha Plant's potted alt references those very few times it ever appeared in a pot, one of which being said commercial. Finally, the cherry on top is the fact that, of all of Square's properties in Smash, the only extra content outside of Cloud's bare necessities are Geno's and Mallow's spirits, Mallow's being an ace and Geno's being a legend. Geno's spirit icon, too, is able to be used as a profile picture in Ultimate.
★ Since the ballot, Square has actually shown that they themselves have not forgotten about SMRPG and Geno either. In their 2017 orchestral album Memoria, showcasing the best of Yoko Shimomura, Beware the Forest's Mushrooms and Goodbye, Geno — the two songs most frequently associated with Geno — were featured. This is also the first time since the original SMRPG OST that SMRPG's music has gotten official album acknowledgement from Square Enix.
★ The fact that most of SMRPG's references have been from after the ballot since SMRPG's release is a very neat point of interest, as a matter of fact.
★ One of the directors of AlphaDream, Chihiro Fujioka, initially stated in 2013 that they weren't sure if they wanted to use Geno and Mallow again because SMRPG 'wrapped up their stories nicely'. However, shortly after, the same director backtracked with another interview, in which he stated that they decided that they'd like to use them in future games, if at all possible, and states that he wonders how they could use them. The fact that he was initially unsure and so quickly changed his mind is very interesting, indeed. Maybe the dude received a lot of backlash, or the rest of the team didn't approve + wanted to see them come back? No one knows.
★ Nintendo of America's treehouse staff has stated that they are 'aware' of the fan base asking for both Waluigi and, of course, Geno, saying that they are listening.
★ Geno's spirit tends to be front-and-center for promotional spirit graphics. He's been featured both on the main menus and Nintendo Direct as Shulk's spirit equip, as well as an appearance in spirit-related news on the Switch as an equipped spirit on four characters versus two Bowsers. It's minor, but it's a point of fascination.
★ PolarPanda's source's superior has gone on record to state that Geno might be DLC. The source has also said that brand-new Mii costumes made for Ultimate in particular (nothing on ported ones, though) are meant as consolation prizes and tend to be in NoA's awareness pretty quickly. This is shortly before NoA listed Mii costumes as being for sale at 75c a pop on their support pages. Either ported Mii costumes are not consolation prizes (and therefore, confirmation that the character will not be considered for Ultimate at the time being) or they are not yet aware of Geno's Mii costume making a return. Either way, for a supervisor to believe that Geno may be DLC, something must be going on that we don't know of. Such a bold rumor doesn't just sprout out of nowhere.
★ Despite Geno's and Mallow's spirits being present and Yoko Shimomura being on the team (whose indie remix albums, unassociated with Square, have had SMRPG remixes all through them, no problem), SMRPG music of ANY kind is not at all present in the game. Along with that, there are no lesser SMRPG spirits alongside Geno and Mallow, despite them likely being easier to license out. The proof of that is in an old 2008 Scholastic's book, featuring Mario in an adventure through old SMRPG locations with a few SMRPG characters even making appearances (the most notable being Frogfucius). If an obscure book can feature those lesser characters and locations, why not Ultimate? Considering music and spirits are important points of challenger packs, this is a point of interest.
★ He's from the Mario series, so despite his age, being from Nintendo's flagship franchise is a huge boost for him.
★ Obviously, he's quite fan-demanded and is definitely a Mario RPG fan favorite.
★ Finally, we have a Nintendo senior artist stating in 2015 that Geno was hot talk in the office. It could easily be because of the Mii costume, though... but it is still interesting.

WHAT HURTS GENO'S CHANCES
✘ Nintendo of America hyped up the Mii costume on their Twitter with great fanfare, saying, "LOOK WHO'S BACK!" verbatim in regards to Geno's outfit. They may well consider the Mii outfit a sufficient 'return' for Geno, which isn't a good look for his chances as a full-fledged fighter.
✘ The obvious elephant in the room here is Square's stinginess. With how little they allowed for Cloud in the base game, the presence of SMRPG material being the only stuff in Ultimate that seems 'extra' could also be a bad sign for Geno. It could be all that they could finagle out of them as a consolation prize. Square could have also easily said 'no' to Shimomura's music in the game, despite evidence pointing at her using those tunes being rather easy. They may also not view Geno as profitable enough to be a playable character, therefore allowing them all rights to deny his inclusion.
✘ If the Mii costume comes back, it may or may not confirm that he has no chance as a playable fighter. However, it could also only confirm he isn't in the Fighter's Pass, which doesn't necessarily bar him from future DLC plans, if any of them happen.
✘ Nintendo could easily choose another, more well-known Square rep, the most likely of those being Erdrick and, to a lesser extent, Sora. That highly lessens Geno's chances for the Fighter's Pass, and we do not know if we will get more fighter DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass at this time.
✘ The biggest obstacle Geno faces is that he is a 20-year-old, one-off side character. While he may be from the big ol' Mario series, this fact undeniably hurts his chances the most. It makes those huge lists of pros he has look like scrap meat under the pressure of this point.

WHAT'S DEBATABLE?
We do not know if the Yoshi's Crafted World Yo'ster Cookies reference is even meant to be a SMRPG nod, and even so, it likely doesn't need Square's OK to be included. We don't know if Geno's Mii costume being ported over would either lessen his chances or completely erase them. We don't know if Smash DLC will go beyond the Fighter's Pass. We don't know if we will get more than one Square rep in the whole DLC cycle (even beyond Fighter's Pass, hypothetically). There is a lot that we just do not know.

HOW IS THE STATE OF THE GENO RIGHT NOW?
His chances are so up in the air that I don't even know what the heck. I'd say, given the Fighter's Pass looks like it'll be a place for big, blow-out characters, his chances are slim for now. If we get more passes with different focuses (like a bigger fan focus) or misc., separate fighter DLC, however, his chances increase significantly again. Given Piranha Plant has its own section with an entire 'individual DLC' segment on NoA's site, misc. fighter DLC is not off the table. Given the site's coding allows for easy implementation of more DLC slots and WoL + character models have extra slots future-proofed in there, it's further proof that it is not out of the realm of question. Sakurai has gone on record to state that the DLC team gets smaller with each character, however. That said, that can still have a lot of nuance behind it. His chances are a solid 10% for the Fighter's Pass in my eyes, abysmally low. If and ONLY if we get further DLC, however, I'd put his chances more at a 40%, which isn't too shabby.
Starting to catch up in here.

Thanks for making all of this! I appreciate it, Ovaltine.
 

T2by4

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
1,165
So, a small write-up on how I perceive Geno's chances. It isn't a huge one, but it's a compilation of everything that has gone on at this point and my final thoughts on the matter at this point in time. Let's see here:

WHAT HELPS GENO'S CHANCES
★ The biggest thing he has going for him is that Sakurai has mentioned him in an interview prior to Ultimate, which I'm sure you are all aware of by now. Firstly, he acknowledges that Geno was 'very popular' in the ballot. Secondly, he stated that he has wanted Geno since Brawl, something that couldn't happen for reasons he has not disclosed. However, he gave us the Mii outfit in Sm4sh (the only one that received a splash screen and a HUGE amount of fanfare, mind) because he wanted the fans to at least feel like he got something. This last bit also hurts Geno's chances, but I won't get ahead of myself here.
★ Super Mario RPG got a Super Mario Kun segment in 2013, showing that he is, at the very least, remembered by both Square and Nintendo. While it was rather belated, likely due to Square's and Nintendo's poor relationship prior, it finally happened.
★ The SNES Classic was released in September and October of 2017 in all regions. Of the 20-summat games included, Super Mario RPG just so happened to be one of them. In May 2018, quite a few months after to promote the SNES Classic and pretty shortly before they stopped its production, Nintendo of America acknowledged SMRPG's anniversary on Twitter with the #TeamMallow and #TeamGeno tweet.
★ Prior to The Game Awards of 2018, an HQ Trivia quiz sponsored by Nintendo appeared for their smartphone mobile app. Super Mario RPG was not only name-dropped, but Geno himself also was, being the focus of a trivia question among ten. Considering this is starting while TGA is getting attention and at the beginning of Ultimate's DLC reveal cycle (given TGA revealed Joker officially), it's a point of interest.
★ Super Mario RPG has been getting multiple references in Smash Ultimate. Piranha Plant's classic mode image references the Super Mario RPG commercial in Japan, whereas Megasmilax, Smilax, and Chewies are mentioned in its guidance. Along with that, Piranha Plant's potted alt references those very few times it ever appeared in a pot, one of which being said commercial. Finally, the cherry on top is the fact that, of all of Square's properties in Smash, the only extra content outside of Cloud's bare necessities are Geno's and Mallow's spirits, Mallow's being an ace and Geno's being a legend. Geno's spirit icon, too, is able to be used as a profile picture in Ultimate.
★ Since the ballot, Square has actually shown that they themselves have not forgotten about SMRPG and Geno either. In their 2017 orchestral album Memoria, showcasing the best of Yoko Shimomura, Beware the Forest's Mushrooms and Goodbye, Geno — the two songs most frequently associated with Geno — were featured. This is also the first time since the original SMRPG OST that SMRPG's music has gotten official album acknowledgement from Square Enix.
★ The fact that most of SMRPG's references have been from after the ballot since SMRPG's release is a very neat point of interest, as a matter of fact.
★ One of the directors of AlphaDream, Chihiro Fujioka, initially stated in 2013 that they weren't sure if they wanted to use Geno and Mallow again because SMRPG 'wrapped up their stories nicely'. However, shortly after, the same director backtracked with another interview, in which he stated that they decided that they'd like to use them in future games, if at all possible, and states that he wonders how they could use them. The fact that he was initially unsure and so quickly changed his mind is very interesting, indeed. Maybe the dude received a lot of backlash, or the rest of the team didn't approve + wanted to see them come back? No one knows.
★ Nintendo of America's treehouse staff has stated that they are 'aware' of the fan base asking for both Waluigi and, of course, Geno, saying that they are listening.
★ Geno's spirit tends to be front-and-center for promotional spirit graphics. He's been featured both on the main menus and Nintendo Direct as Shulk's spirit equip, as well as an appearance in spirit-related news on the Switch as an equipped spirit on four characters versus two Bowsers. It's minor, but it's a point of fascination.
★ PolarPanda's source's superior has gone on record to state that Geno might be DLC. The source has also said that brand-new Mii costumes made for Ultimate in particular (nothing on ported ones, though) are meant as consolation prizes and tend to be in NoA's awareness pretty quickly. This is shortly before NoA listed Mii costumes as being for sale at 75c a pop on their support pages. Either ported Mii costumes are not consolation prizes (and therefore, confirmation that the character will not be considered for Ultimate at the time being) or they are not yet aware of Geno's Mii costume making a return. Either way, for a supervisor to believe that Geno may be DLC, something must be going on that we don't know of. Such a bold rumor doesn't just sprout out of nowhere.
★ Despite Geno's and Mallow's spirits being present and Yoko Shimomura being on the team (whose indie remix albums, unassociated with Square, have had SMRPG remixes all through them, no problem), SMRPG music of ANY kind is not at all present in the game. Along with that, there are no lesser SMRPG spirits alongside Geno and Mallow, despite them likely being easier to license out. The proof of that is in an old 2008 Scholastic's book, featuring Mario in an adventure through old SMRPG locations with a few SMRPG characters even making appearances (the most notable being Frogfucius). If an obscure book can feature those lesser characters and locations, why not Ultimate? Considering music and spirits are important points of challenger packs, this is a point of interest.
★ He's from the Mario series, so despite his age, being from Nintendo's flagship franchise is a huge boost for him.
★ Obviously, he's quite fan-demanded and is definitely a Mario RPG fan favorite.
★ Finally, we have a Nintendo senior artist stating in 2015 that Geno was hot talk in the office. It could easily be because of the Mii costume, though... but it is still interesting.

WHAT HURTS GENO'S CHANCES
✘ Nintendo of America hyped up the Mii costume on their Twitter with great fanfare, saying, "LOOK WHO'S BACK!" verbatim in regards to Geno's outfit. They may well consider the Mii outfit a sufficient 'return' for Geno, which isn't a good look for his chances as a full-fledged fighter.
✘ The obvious elephant in the room here is Square's stinginess. With how little they allowed for Cloud in the base game, the presence of SMRPG material being the only stuff in Ultimate that seems 'extra' could also be a bad sign for Geno. It could be all that they could finagle out of them as a consolation prize. Square could have also easily said 'no' to Shimomura's music in the game, despite evidence pointing at her using those tunes being rather easy. They may also not view Geno as profitable enough to be a playable character, therefore allowing them all rights to deny his inclusion.
✘ If the Mii costume comes back, it may or may not confirm that he has no chance as a playable fighter. However, it could also only confirm he isn't in the Fighter's Pass, which doesn't necessarily bar him from future DLC plans, if any of them happen.
✘ Nintendo could easily choose another, more well-known Square rep, the most likely of those being Erdrick and, to a lesser extent, Sora. That highly lessens Geno's chances for the Fighter's Pass, and we do not know if we will get more fighter DLC beyond the Fighter's Pass at this time.
✘ The biggest obstacle Geno faces is that he is a 20-year-old, one-off side character. While he may be from the big ol' Mario series, this fact undeniably hurts his chances the most. It makes those huge lists of pros he has look like scrap meat under the pressure of this point.

WHAT'S DEBATABLE?
We do not know if the Yoshi's Crafted World Yo'ster Cookies reference is even meant to be a SMRPG nod, and even so, it likely doesn't need Square's OK to be included. We don't know if Geno's Mii costume being ported over would either lessen his chances or completely erase them. We don't know if Smash DLC will go beyond the Fighter's Pass. We don't know if we will get more than one Square rep in the whole DLC cycle (even beyond Fighter's Pass, hypothetically). There is a lot that we just do not know.

HOW IS THE STATE OF THE GENO RIGHT NOW?
His chances are so up in the air that I don't even know what the heck. I'd say, given the Fighter's Pass looks like it'll be a place for big, blow-out characters, his chances are slim for now. If we get more passes with different focuses (like a bigger fan focus) or misc., separate fighter DLC, however, his chances increase significantly again. Given Piranha Plant has its own section with an entire 'individual DLC' segment on NoA's site, misc. fighter DLC is not off the table. Given the site's coding allows for easy implementation of more DLC slots and WoL + character models have extra slots future-proofed in there, it's further proof that it is not out of the realm of question. Sakurai has gone on record to state that the DLC team gets smaller with each character, however. That said, that can still have a lot of nuance behind it. His chances are a solid 10% for the Fighter's Pass in my eyes, abysmally low. If and ONLY if we get further DLC, however, I'd put his chances more at a 40%, which isn't too shabby.
This gives me some hope. Even if he doesn't get in, knowing that Nintendo HAS TO KNOW his popularity by now gives me hope that he may appear in future Mario games.
 

Sovereign Trinity

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852
yeah; I think Minecraft is still great and I generally like everything they've added, though they do seem to have made it easier (Creepers stop walking when fusing and don't side-step while walking towards you anymore, and the hunger bar + stacked foods can be argued to have made it a lot easier) and I can understand 1.9 ruining the feel of the game for people, at least in PvP servers (though they can easily bring back spam-clicking even in 1.9 thanks to NBT data). I still get nostalgia for when I first played the game in Beta 1.5; it was very nice, playing a simple survival game, learning how to use mods at some point, and all that, even when I've met some mean individuals in some servers.

I don't really get the whole toxic view the fanbase has, though; most people I see are nice and respectable, though there are some rude people every now and then, especially in PvP games in multiplayer; Minecon is a bit annoying with how it's not exactly family-friendly, though, as it ignores older members of the family (including older children or teens) instead of having a fair balance, so I guess things like that could've given a certain image to the fanbase. I personally still find the game to still be simple somewhat, but it has definitely gotten more complex compared to before.

y'know, while I say I like everything they've added, I did have a problem with the hunger bar when it was first added, but then I got used to it and thought it was fine. I also thought they ruined the terrain before getting used to it; not that I hated the new terrain, it was actually fine and it had some cool stuff, even now, but it definitely can't compare to before since it's very generic between worlds and such.
You remember the time when some items were unstackable? Good times. I remember putting hundreds of porkchop in chests.

During my time of playing beta MC, I remember wanting sprint in Minecraft for so long... after the hunger bar came, I really regret saying that now. Overall, I think we should be happy they never added a thirst bar; could you imagine drinking water bottles and milk? Yikes, that would be a pain in the ass. I was able to redo my journey again once MC came out for Xbox 360 in May 2012, and I bought it like at 5 in the morning on the day it came out, before school. It was during the end of my school days, so at that point I stopped doing my homework and always hopped on right after school. There would be a big group of us from school that would get on Xbox MC right after school and we'd stay up all night playing and building; unfortunately since the max per lobby was 8, we'd play on multiple worlds with other friends or hop on other games. When MC came out for Xbox, it was like in a mix between alpha and beta, and it was honestly very nice; I regret updating it, and I sure miss those days. I really wish I had recorded those days, because I'd love to visually see them again... unfortunately, they exist now only in my memory.
I wish she got in Brawl instead of Wolf honestly. Brawl was her only chance to get in the roster outside the use of the Smash Ballot. I hope her Assist leads to her finally being included in the roster in a future Smash.
I think Krystal is a guaranteed newcomer for the next Smash game. I also find her more unique than Wolf. I'm pretty sure she didn't make it because there wasn't enough time, which is really unfortunate. Don't forget that she was at least considered for a Smash game, so I think she's up there for consideration next time. I'm happy with what we got, but I personally think we should've gotten more newcomers, at least two more: Krystal and Claus.
 

Ovaltine

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This gives me some hope. Even if he doesn't get in, knowing that Nintendo HAS TO KNOW his popularity by now gives me hope that he may appear in future Mario games.
Right. My point is that not all hope is lost, and while things look very bleak for the Fighter's Pass, if not Geno having absolutely no chance left for it, nothing is over. As long as the Mario series is alive, we can always campaign to bring him and Mallow back where they belong: with their friends. That's why Operation Starfall is a thing, after all... and we should have the site done by July, so it won't be staying dormant for too much longer. ;)
 
D

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Right. My point is that not all hope is lost, and while things look very bleak for the Fighter's Pass, if not Geno having absolutely no chance left for it, nothing is over. As long as the Mario series is alive, we can always campaign to bring him and Mallow back where they belong: with their friends. That's why Operation Starfall is a thing, after all... and we should have the site done by July, so it won't be staying dormant for too much longer. ;)
Glad to see you being super optimistic today :)
 

Ovaltine

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Glad to see you being super optimistic today :)
Well, I'd say I'm being realistic still. Let's be totally honest: things look a bit rough. That being said, we need to focus on the silver linings, and we can't keep our voices unheard like they were in Sm4sh. Everyone was super quiet then. Let's not do that again!
 
D

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They... fixed those? What? What??

I may have to revisit that game sooner rather than later, what the hell. (Also it has bunnies now and I cannot resist bunnies :sadeyes:)
Yeah, while I don't want Steve in Smash, I do enjoy playing Minecraft lol. I think I may play it in a few weeks or so.
 
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Teeb147

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Krystal was my fave all the way since brawl. I was really unhappy that wolf got in over her.
I think that they made wolf play good in ultimate, so i appreciate him being in, but I still really wanted krystal added, they even bothered modeling her (as Assist trophy)

Feels like remnants of the past a bit now. I havent played the new star fox series but there's new girls in them. Doubt i'd like them as much as krystal tho.
 

TheCJBrine

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They... fixed those? What? What??

I may have to revisit that game sooner rather than later, what the hell. (Also it has bunnies now and I cannot resist bunnies :sadeyes:)
yup, to my disappointment, though tbh I don't mind too much. I have a Creeper bias so I wish they kept those in; make my favorite mob the most challenging :bobomb:

And yup, they have bunnies, along with cyclops fish, polar bears, dolphins, and flying manta ray-like demon cliff racers :troll:
 

Monokarhu

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I've watched and read a lot of character speculation, but there's one burning question that I don't think I've ever seen tackled (and I wish someone would):

Why would Erdrick's codename be so blindingly obvious?

The other codename we know of, "Jack", is extremely generic. If it was datamined before Joker was revealed, there's absolutely no way we would've known who it was for. On the other hand, "Brave" is, as far as I can tell, literally what the main character of DQ3 is called. Like PapaGenos points out in his latest video, he's even called that in official media. This raises the question:

Why would they so very carefully hide the identity of one character, yet not make the slightest effort to hide another's?

Obviously, the most logical answer is that "Brave" isn't actually Erdrick. One counter-argument I could see to this is that they've never been using codenames at all (Piranha Plant was called "Packun", and they might have called Joker "Jack" simply because he doesn't have a canon name), but we know for a fact that Arsene had a codename ("Doyle"), meaning that they are, without a doubt, using codenames, and if we assume that "Brave" is a codename, it's a pretty safe assumption that it's not for a character whose name is literally Brave.
 

Ayumi Tachibana

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Messages
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I've watched and read a lot of character speculation, but there's one burning question that I don't think I've ever seen tackled (and I wish someone would):

Why would Erdrick's codename be so blindingly obvious?

The other codename we know of, "Jack", is extremely generic. If it was datamined before Joker was revealed, there's absolutely no way we would've known who it was for. On the other hand, "Brave" is, as far as I can tell, literally what the main character of DQ3 is called. Like PapaGenos points out in his latest video, he's even called that in official media. This raises the question:

Why would they so very carefully hide the identity of one character, yet not make the slightest effort to hide another's?

Obviously, the most logical answer is that "Brave" isn't actually Erdrick. One counter-argument I could see to this is that they've never been using codenames at all (Piranha Plant was called "Packun", and they might have called Joker "Jack" simply because he doesn't have a canon name), but we know for a fact that Arsene had a codename ("Doyle"), meaning that they are, without a doubt, using codenames, and if we assume that "Brave" is a codename, it's a pretty safe assumption that it's not for a character whose name is literally Brave.
I want to point out one another possibility that "Brave" was actually considered for the basegame like Piranha Plant but moved to DLC for whatever reason. I think that also explains why Erdrick was known among insiders for such a long time.
 
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Another thing I'd want in an SMRPG remake are increased level and HP caps. The max for both are 30 and 255 respectively, so increasing those would give there a lot more to do in the game IMO.
 

The Anigriffin

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If Brave was planned for base, there’s also a decent chance of them being a first party character as well in my opinion.
 

Dinoman96

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Especially Krystal, a highly wanted character from Brawl speculation.
Krystal and Geno were two on the old 2006 Brawl poll, so it'd be nice seeing those two in. From my point of view, I find Krystal more interesting than Wolf.


Over 10 years later, and they're still waiting
 

Teeb147

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 15, 2007
Messages
10,624
I've watched and read a lot of character speculation, but there's one burning question that I don't think I've ever seen tackled (and I wish someone would):

Why would Erdrick's codename be so blindingly obvious?

The other codename we know of, "Jack", is extremely generic. If it was datamined before Joker was revealed, there's absolutely no way we would've known who it was for. On the other hand, "Brave" is, as far as I can tell, literally what the main character of DQ3 is called. Like PapaGenos points out in his latest video, he's even called that in official media. This raises the question:

Why would they so very carefully hide the identity of one character, yet not make the slightest effort to hide another's?

Obviously, the most logical answer is that "Brave" isn't actually Erdrick. One counter-argument I could see to this is that they've never been using codenames at all (Piranha Plant was called "Packun", and they might have called Joker "Jack" simply because he doesn't have a canon name), but we know for a fact that Arsene had a codename ("Doyle"), meaning that they are, without a doubt, using codenames, and if we assume that "Brave" is a codename, it's a pretty safe assumption that it's not for a character whose name is literally Brave.
It's not a literal name, there's actually a lot of characters that can be called brave, because Yuusha isn't just a name for dragon quest heroes, it's for heroes in general. Dragon Quest is a really renown franchise in japan so you might see some things more with it, including more advertisings that used the wrong translation (since 'brave' isn't actually used in japanese, it's Yuusha.) So to them it might be a good enough codename in their mind.

My Hero Academy is an example of an exception, where they're using a correct translation due to the western heroes influence. Most dont use a translation, but there's Tons of stuff using the word Yuusha.
All these animes have Yuusha in the title:
Rokka no Yuusha
Hagure Yuusha no Aesthetica
Maoyuu Maou Yuusha
Tate no Yuusha no Nariagari
Yuusha ni Narenakatta Ore wa Shibushibu Shuushoku wo Ketsui Shima****a.
Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu
Yuuki Yuuna wa Yuusha de Aru
Yuusha-Ou GaoGaiGar

Dragon Quest might be tied to it more than in the past, but it's a broad term, with a few connotations though, but still mainly means hero or someone specially brave.
I will say that the connotations have changed a bit because of all the gaming trend with it, and dragon quest had a big influence, but yeah, I think they probably felt it was good enough of a codename. That it does have wide enough meaning opens it up too, if you can think of other characters known to be heroes.
 
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Shado-will

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If Brave was planned for base, wouldn't they probably be out by now? I get the idea that Piranha Plant was planned to be base because they were basically a complete character a month before the game's release. What's the argument for Brave?

Another thing I'd want in an SMRPG remake are increased level and HP caps. The max for both are 30 and 255 respectively, so increasing those would give there a lot more to do in the game IMO.
I personally would like if they took away the mechanic where characters that aren't in your party still gain experience. It would force you to switch characters to level them up instead of letting you just stick to 3 character the whole game (not saying that everyone does this, but some people do). Or maybe have each character forced to be in your party at some point in the game (excluding Mario); for example, Mallow in Nimbus Land. I would also like if you could take Mario out of your party, but that's probably not gonna happen.
 
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Teeb147

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Messages
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If Brave was planned for base, wouldn't they probably be out by now? I get the idea that Piranha Plant was planned to be base because they were basically a complete character a month before the game's release. What's the argument for Brave?
I don't think anyone says that brave was planned for base. There was Verge who claimed the SE characters was probably going to be in base, but obviously he had the timing wrong (or there isn't an SE character?) :p
 

The Anigriffin

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If Brave was planned for base, wouldn't they probably be out by now? I get the idea that Piranha Plant was planned to be base because they were basically a complete character a month before the game's release. What's the argument for Brave?
There’s no genuine proof, just a theory, but if Nintendo chose the characters, a character being cut from base to be sold as DLC is still Nintendo choosing the DLC. Like maybe they thought the character would be good to push a new game coming out or something.

In a way I’m sorta bored of Brave speculation but it’s kinda the only thing that we for sure know of that hasn’t been revealed yet, so I understand why people are discussing it.
 

Ovaltine

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Hadn't Fatman also relayed that insiders grouped with Polar theorized that Erdrick was planned for base anyhow? This isn't really a new revelation. It's definitely an interesting one, though, and I can see why he'd be pushed to the Fighter's Pass. He's definitely got enough music, stage, and spirit potential to fill the requirements.
 

The Anigriffin

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Hadn't Fatman also relayed that insiders grouped with Polar theorized that Erdrick was planned for base anyhow? This isn't really a new revelation. It's definitely an interesting one, though, and I can see why he'd be pushed to the Fighter's Pass. He's definitely got enough music, stage, and spirit potential to fill the requirements.
To be fair, insiders theorizing isn’t really any different from us theorizing. I think most insiders are in the same boat as we are ie making guesses.
 

Ovaltine

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To be fair, insiders theorizing isn’t really any different from us theorizing. I think most insiders are in the same boat as we are ie making guesses.
True, of course, but the point is that this isn't really a brand-new theory. That, and I can see how it'd still hold some water.
 

Loliko YnT

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The only issue I have with Brave is that a lot of people assume it's gonna be Erdrick.
Like , no matter how likely a character look like , thinking someone's a lock , ESPECIALLY IF YOU WANT THEM , can very easily lead to disapointment.

Honestly , I don't believe the "Erdrick was base" theory.
Like , Sakurai thought he could get Cloud , Erdrick , and SMRPG content for base game ? When he could only get Cloud and the Geno mii costume for Sm4sh DLC ? With the rumors of getting back Cloud was a pain in the ass ? When he probably got denied by SE when he asked for Geno back in Brawl ? (no proof of that , but stating he wanted him but couldn't get him , that's the most likely scenario with time constraints)
I dunno , he's important , but he's the first one to know that SE isn't easy to deal with.
 
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