Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior (Come on! Let's get this show on the road! Geno DLC)

ShotoStar 2

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May 28, 2019
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One of the things I keep getting caught up on is the importance of music in the DLC. Way back in the olden year of 2006, one of the three things the Brawl poll focused on was music and I feel like that has stayed important to Sakurai after all these years. The soundtracks since Brawl have been sprawling and filled with some of the best music Nintendo has ever produced, period. That's why I feel like it's going to be a big part of the last two characters and it's honestly the thread that connects literally all the third party characters.

Beyond this, there's the sound design too. Sonic and MegaMan's jump. Pac-Man's "Waka Waka." Banjo and Kazooie's goofy noises. The "spotted" sound from Metal Gear. Even things you wouldn't even think about like Bayonetta's super posh accent are incredibly distinct and one of a kind. I don't know too many series left that are really iconic when it comes to music and sound design and decently wanted for Smash. A lot of the ones people suggest are one or the other or maybe they have one tune that people decently recognize but that's about it.
Would you consider Super Mario RPG's Sound Effects and Music along those lines Fatman? Cause I personally consider Beware the Forests Mushrooms Iconic and the Sound effects iconic as well just less so.
I am really late to a lot of things....First and for most, what is Rainbow Theory?

I have an understanding that it is a color that coincides with a characters reveal/design? For example Banjo-Kazooie has Yellow as its prominent color in his trailer.
Soooo Joker is Red, Piranha Plant is Green, and The Hero is Violet?

If that is the case...would we expect 3 more characters or are people putting Blue together as one since 'It rounds out the fighters pass'? If so, that is silly gang.

We would have to have Orange, Blue, AND Indigo.

Would not mind this. I could see Blue being Geno, Indigo as Phoenix Wright and Orange as Doom Slayer.

Thoughts?
I would love that honestly Geno and Phoenix Wright are two of my most wanted Characters (Geno being #1 and Phoenix being in my top 5) but just to not expect too much I'd say I don't think this is happening at all. Though yes that's basically what it is, Each Character is associated with a Color on their background for the Smash Website and their color scheme sort of meshes well with each other which is why people think the "Color Theory" may be a thing.
 

GoodGrief741

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4,536
I am really late to a lot of things....First and for most, what is Rainbow Theory?

I have an understanding that it is a color that coincides with a characters reveal/design? For example Banjo-Kazooie has Yellow as its prominent color in his trailer.
Soooo Joker is Red, Piranha Plant is Green, and The Hero is Violet?

If that is the case...would we expect 3 more characters or are people putting Blue together as one since 'It rounds out the fighters pass'? If so, that is silly gang.

We would have to have Orange, Blue, AND Indigo.

Would not mind this. I could see Blue being Geno, Indigo as Phoenix Wright and Orange as Doom Slayer.

Thoughts?
Indigo isn't considered a rainbow color worldwide, I think.
 

TBone06

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814
With rumblings that Luminary was planned for the base roster, that makes me feel optimistic about our chances. Could easily see Geno already having been negotiated for DLC at some point but Luminary had to take priority to complete first since he was supposed to be base roster.
Where was this stated about Luminary? Do you have a link?
 
Joined
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I find myself wondering if the reason we didn't get Geno in 4 was that Sakurai couldn't find an updated design of Geno that either he or Square were satisfied with, which would be why we got a Mii costume since it could be inaccurate as it wanted to be and still give Geno supporters something to hold onto.

Keeping in mind how Geno only got 1 (2 if you count the puzzle) official renders and that the in-game sprites didn't do much to answer questions like "Does his mouth keep rectangular like a Nutcracker or does it freely move within a fixed space?", "Does a solid torso keep faithful to his official art depiction but restrict his range of flexibility and movement?", "Compared to how night-and-day the difference is from Mario, Bowser, and Peach's RPG depictions and how they look in the present day, Just how much of Geno do we have to reinterpret from the ground-up?", makes it seem like quite a difficult mountain to climb for Sakurai who tends to be a perfectionist in these types of things. And there is quite a lot to consider just based on character function, details, and longevity, before you even get to stuff everyone else considers like movesets, physics, and the like.

If he still can't find a final result he's content with, I'd say that could very well be a legit reason for his delay and cause for the complications getting him into Ultimate.
I mean, if you look at characters like Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, and Pit, they didn't really have much to work with either regarding their designs. Pit was completely updated for his appearence in Brawl. I feel like they'd do something similar for him as a character. Not all Smash characters have to be 100% faithful, otherwise Ridley would be a giant.
 

wynn728

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If you pulled all of the assist trophies and Mii fighter costumes from the game that people want, you might be lucky to get one fighter since they take up such an enormous amount of development time in comparison to everything else. Maybe an Echo to go with that unique fighter if we're really pushing it. That's your alternative option. I hope you understand the ramifications of that trade-off and how many characters are just not going to be in the game period. With the way DLC is going to, none of the first parties had a chance anyway for the Fighter's Pass and wouldn't magically have a better chance because they weren't in base. Sure, there would still be hope for those characters all through DLC and then nothing... No beautiful return in HD for Isaac if only a limited role, Shadow and Knuckles don't exist, Krystal gets zero acknowledgement, Yacht Games and Wayforward don't get their beautiful chances to have a place in Smash, Bomberman doesn't get a mention, etc.

You get one, maybe and I really mean pretty damn unlikely maybe, two character "slots" out of this transaction. Good luck satisfying much of the fan base with that.
Yeah I'm good with that. I would gladly trade all those Assets Trophies and Mii Costumes for one newcomer or an Echo Fighter. What value do the Isaac, Shadow, Bomberman, and Shovel Knight Assist Trophy add? They're just 1 in 59 chance of randomly summoning them if the game itself allows you to have an Assist Trophy item. I've played this game for a long time and I forget that Akira from Virtua Fighter is an Assist Trophy because of how infrequent it is to summon any particular character. It's basically nothing and adds no value.

As for the Shantae Spirit, that also added nothing considering that it's just a png picture of her. I get the same amount of enjoyment by just printing out a picture of her and put up against my TV while playing Smash 4. A lot of things just have no real value. People will also bring up that Yacht Club and Wayforward are happy with the representation despite how little it is, but you guys got to remember that they got a bunch on money from Nintendo because of that so of course they're happy.

Sure, even if every single Assist Trophy and Mii Costume is cut to add just one character it might not be my most wanted or a character I really care about, but it's still a lot more value than all the Assist Trophies & Mii Costumes combine together. There won't be any hard deconfirmation so that means the fans of Isaac, Shadow and whoever can continue to voice their support instead of seeing their characters get mocked throughout the entire community for losing the potential of being a Fighter. I think a lot of those fans would rather take that then have fan art of their character getting killed by Piranha Plant (Shadow, Isaac, and Geno fans really felt that burn).

Sometimes nothing is better than something.
 
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I am really late to a lot of things....First and for most, what is Rainbow Theory?

I have an understanding that it is a color that coincides with a characters reveal/design? For example Banjo-Kazooie has Yellow as its prominent color in his trailer.
Soooo Joker is Red, Piranha Plant is Green, and The Hero is Violet?

If that is the case...would we expect 3 more characters or are people putting Blue together as one since 'It rounds out the fighters pass'? If so, that is silly gang.

We would have to have Orange, Blue, AND Indigo.

Would not mind this. I could see Blue being Geno, Indigo as Phoenix Wright and Orange as Doom Slayer.

Thoughts?
The fact I don't believe color theory even in passing aside, I'd be really quite happy with the overall DLC situation if those were our three final newcomers. Maybe an "orange" would preferably go to Crash Bandicoot as I think want him slightly more than Doom Slayer, but I'd walk away very satisfied with Ultimate at that point.

(I really hope we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass... but I'm just not counting on it despite the fact I'd love more characters, stages, and even stages unrelated to the new characters)
 

Ovaltine

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(I really hope we get more DLC than the Fighter's Pass... but I'm just not counting on it despite the fact I'd love more characters, stages, and even stages unrelated to the new characters)
If we do, I think individual DLC is the way to go. No crazy deadlines, delivering more beloved characters, Sakurai can continue to take it easy with DLC instead of a whole new game project (while attached to freaking IVs, like the hell, Sakurai, I love you man, take a break), and no ridiculous constraints like the Fighter's Pass.

I'm also not counting on it, though, not at all.
 
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Yeah I'm good with that. I would gladly trade all those Assets Trophies and Mii Costumes for one newcomer or an Echo Fighter. What value do the Isaac, Shadow, Bomberman, and Shovel Knight Assist Trophy add? They're just 1 in 59 chance of randomly summoning them if the game itself allows you to have an Assist Trophy item. I've played this game for a long time and I forget that Akira from Virtua Fighter is an Assist Trophy because of how infrequent it is to summon any particular character. It's basically nothing and adds no value.

As for the Shantae Spirit, that also added nothing considering that it's just a png picture of her. I get the same amount of enjoyment by just printing out a picture of her and put up against my TV while playing Smash 4. A lot of things just have no real value. People will also bring up that Yacht Club and Wayforward are happy with the representation despite how little it is, but you guys got to remember that they got a bunch on money from Nintendo because of that so of course they're happy.

Sure, even if every single Assist Trophy and Mii Costume is cut to add just one character it might not be my most wanted or a character I really care about, but it's still a lot more value than all the Assist Trophies & Mii Costumes combine together. There won't be any hard deconfirmation so that means the fans of Isaac, Shadow and whoever can continue to voice their support instead of seeing their characters get mocked throughout the entire community for losing the potential of being a Fighter. I think a lot of those fans would rather take that then have fan art of their character getting killed by Piranha Plant (Shadow, Isaac, and Geno fans really felt that burn).

Sometimes nothing is better than something.
Agreed. I’m not a big fan of Assist Trophies. To me they’re just glorified poke balls. The Isaac AT doesn’t do much for me. I’m glad he at least has a Mii costume as I find that far more appealing. But I’d be okay with scrapping all of that for another character or two.

And I don’t mean to sound ungrateful. I know Sakurai and his team out a lot of hard work into them, and I’m sure there are others out there that love them and I can understand why, I just don’t.
 
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Yeah I'm good with that. I would gladly trade all those Assets Trophies and Mii Costumes for one newcomer or an Echo Fighter. What value do the Isaac, Shadow, Bomberman, and Shovel Knight Assist Trophy add? They're just 1 in 59 chance of randomly summoning them if the game itself allows you to have an Assist Trophy item. I've played this game for a long time and I forget that Akira from Virtua Fighter is an Assist Trophy because of how infrequent it is to summon any particular character. It's basically nothing and adds no value.

As for the Shantae Spirit, that also added nothing considering that it's just a png picture of her. I get the same amount of enjoyment by just printing out a picture of her and put up against my TV while playing Smash 4. A lot of things just have no real value. People will also bring up that Yacht Club and Wayforward are happy with the representation despite how little it is, but you guys got to remember that they got a bunch on money from Nintendo because of that so of course they're happy.

Sure, even if every single Assist Trophy and Mii Costume is cut to add just one character it might not be my most wanted or a character I really care about, but it's still a lot more value than all the Assist Trophies & Mii Costumes combine together. There won't be any hard deconfirmation so that means the fans of Isaac, Shadow and whoever can continue to voice their support instead of seeing their characters get mocked throughout the entire community for losing the potential of being a Fighter. I think a lot of those fans would rather take that then have fan art of their character getting killed by Piranha Plant (Shadow, Isaac, and Geno fans really felt that burn).

Sometimes nothing is better than something.
That's a hell of a take then. Removing an entire major game mechanic since Brawl that has contributed to the party atmosphere of Smash and increases the series' ability to crossover with other games. Just of the franchises you lose by going that route: Golden Sun, Virtua Fighter, Fatal Frame, Bomberman, Dillion, Brain Age, Sim City, half of Monster Hunter, ARMS, Shovel Knight, Starfy, Art Academy... and then how many characters just don't exist in the game. Waluigi, Takumaru, etc. Many characters who just won't ever have a place in Smash if they don't have the Assist Trophy to get in.

To each their own, but I really can't agree with that. That's too high of a cost to pay for maybe Isaac and Shadow... (if they're even considered with time for another couple of characters).
 

wynn728

Smash Apprentice
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That's a hell of a take then. Removing an entire major game mechanic since Brawl that has contributed to the party atmosphere of Smash and increases the series' ability to crossover with other games. Just of the franchises you lose by going that route: Golden Sun, Virtua Fighter, Fatal Frame, Bomberman, Dillion, Brain Age, Sim City, half of Monster Hunter, ARMS, Shovel Knight, Starfy, Art Academy... and then how many characters just don't exist in the game. Waluigi, Takumaru, etc. Many characters who just won't ever have a place in Smash if they don't have the Assist Trophy to get in.

To each their own, but I really can't agree with that. That's too high of a cost to pay for maybe Isaac and Shadow... (if they're even considered with time for another couple of characters).
You don't need an Assist Trophy to one day get into Smash Bros, look at Piranha Plant. But yeah, I'm willing to get rid of all Assist Trophies. Heck, if I could I would Thanos Snap and erase half of the Assist Trophy line up for no added character to the roster. There's too many of them and a good handful of Assist Trophies harms you when you summon them like Nightmare and Skull Kid. Because of that most people turn off Assist Trophies, and it's a shame because there are some good choices like Nikki being an Assist Trophy. But the Assist Trophies are not a good mechanic added into Smash Bros. Sure it's their best way to try and add "something" for the fans (despite the fact that that "something" feels like a slap in the face), but it's just poorly thought out that takes away so much control out of your hands when playing. You don't have an option on who you summon and when & where you can summon them, picking up the item is your only option. That's just lame


Instead of that the way they can make Assist Trophies better is if you can actually equip them before Battle. Let's say you get three slots and each of the 59 can take up one, two or all three slots. You select your character and summon them during battle by pressing the shield and taunt button. Each Assist has a cool down similar to the Final Smash Meter. Going that way you can make the Assist Trophy special since you have them right by your side and make the most out of them. It could feel like how Iron-Man calls out Spider-Man in Civil War for help with that new mechanic while the current Assist Trophy mechanic feels more like a Ready Player One cameo that only last for 15 seconds and disappears.

Also on your comment "Just of the franchises you lose by going that route: Golden Sun, Virtua Fighter, Fatal Frame, Bomberman, Dillion, Brain Age, Sim City, half of Monster Hunter, ARMS, Shovel Knight, Starfy, Art Academy" all I will say is that Sakurai doesn't include any of those series in the splash logo that shows all the series added to Smash Bros, so getting rid of them is like we got rid of nothing.
 

AugustusB

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Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
 
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ShotoStar 2

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May 28, 2019
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191
Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
Hey I'd take what I can get at this point if it's just Geno then so be it, I'd love it anyways.
 

MissingGlitch

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Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
As long as he is playable they can drop him however they want.
 

ZelDan

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Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
No music would be disappointing as SMRPG has some awesome tracks, but I could live without a stage.
 
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One of the things I keep getting caught up on is the importance of music in the DLC. Way back in the olden year of 2006, one of the three things the Brawl poll focused on was music and I feel like that has stayed important to Sakurai after all these years. The soundtracks since Brawl have been sprawling and filled with some of the best music Nintendo has ever produced, period. That's why I feel like it's going to be a big part of the last two characters and it's honestly the thread that connects literally all the third party characters.

Beyond this, there's the sound design too. Sonic and MegaMan's jump. Pac-Man's "Waka Waka." Banjo and Kazooie's goofy noises. The "spotted" sound from Metal Gear. Even things you wouldn't even think about like Bayonetta's super posh accent are incredibly distinct and one of a kind. I don't know too many series left that are really iconic when it comes to music and sound design and decently wanted for Smash. A lot of the ones people suggest are one or the other or maybe they have one tune that people decently recognize but that's about it.
the music of Super Mario RPG is astounding, The sound effects are very much distinct and recognizable. I feel like anybody who's played a Super Mario RPG and had an impression left on them would recognize the sound of a successful timed hit, the sound of being the sound of being slashed by an enemy with width claws, lightning summoned by mallow, Bowser's funky laughter that sounds like a series of clicks, the sound of falling from a long distance, Etc
I watch a lot of terminal montages animations on YouTube, and he uses an abundance of Super Mario RPG sound effects that i seriously hope Geno incorporates a few of those sounds if he does become playable.
 
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Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
That's realistically how I felt Geno would get in for a while. Maybe a couple of Super Mario RPG tunes like how Corrin came with some Fates tunes, but that's generally been my expectation. And while I love Super Mario RPG and would want as much music as we could get (Geno and the Music is all I really care about getting into Smash, the rest I'm more than willing to sacrifice for him in), just getting Geno in would be plenty for me.
 

StormC

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That's really not the case, Sakurai needs to know what the fans like so he can stop waste his and his teams time of developing content that's only going to disappoint.
Sakurai brought back every veteran and added King K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo-Kazooie. I think he has a pretty good idea what the fans like.
 

Vector Victor

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Color theory sounds better lol. And I am glad some people brought up that some do not consider indigo or orange in the rainbow.

Something I thought about. In a weird scenario, we see The Hero's rundown video and release. Then the Mii Costumes get shown, but we do not see Geno. At the end, they announce that Geno is a bonus fighter.

No new stage. No music from SMRPG. Just the character.

How would y'all feel? I could see this as a possibility and would take it if that is what we got. (Would still want a full blown pass treatment though)
I don't care if Sakurai scribbles on a napkin with crayons to confirm that Geno is playable. Just have him playable.
 

Fatmanonice

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You know after seeing the dq characters moves I’m convinced if geno does make it in sometime, timed hits are gonna be his gimmick...
That's my thought too. Hero's not only Dragon Quest: the Character ™ but pretty much JRPG: the Character ™. Each newcomer they bring in, aside from the Echoes, they try to say "this is distinctly theirs." Geno wouldn't just be "pew pew pew pew **** yeah guns", they would add something so that people would feel downright embarrassed for suggesting he would be a MegaMan or Mii Gunner clone.
 

wynn728

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Sakurai brought back every veteran and added King K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo-Kazooie. I think he has a pretty good idea what the fans like.
But for every great thing we get we get something that misses the mark completely. Like for example, he knew many people wanted Ridley in the game so in Smash 4 he made Ridley as a stage boss thinking this is a great compromise and everyone would like that only to find out that the Ridley stage boss turned that stage into one of the worse stages. Sakurai thinks that meeting people half way when it comes to including characters as Assist, Mii Costume, or Spirits makes people happy but it quite literally doesn't amount to much. I'm sure when they sat down to decide for DLC they did say "Why should we turn any of these Assist Trophy characters into actual fighters? I'm positive the fans love that their character is in the game in any kind of form and they can feel like they're playing as them with the Mii Costume. There's no need to make characters like Bomberman and whoever playable because they're already in the game and that's what people want. Let's focus on completely other characters." Sakurai and his team can be tone deaf when it comes to certain aspect of Smash Bros, and they need to really get a good understanding with the fans. I believe that Smash Bros Ultimate is one of the best Smash Bros games because they listen to fan feedback that says make Battlefield variation of stages, turn off hazards, customize rules that can be saved, Final Smash Meter, a mode where we can have three stocks be different characters, and the improved Stage Builder from Wii U, all of that was done from the fan feedback. They need to get more in touch with the fanbase.
 

Fatmanonice

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Sakurai brought back every veteran and added King K. Rool, Ridley, and Banjo-Kazooie. I think he has a pretty good idea what the fans like.
This is important to remember. This game has gone up and beyond fan service but the reality is that we as a fanbase may still lose out. Somebody has to. There's no way they can appease absolutely everything and we may find our ourselves packing up our camp yet again and waiting for a hypothetical Smash 6. It's nothing new. I remember being mad that Wario and Diddy weren't in Melee but they eventually happened and that's just kind of the game that we Smash fans play with these games.
 

Ovaltine

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But for every great thing we get we get something that misses the mark completely. Like for example, he knew many people wanted Ridley in the game so in Smash 4 he made Ridley as a stage boss thinking this is a great compromise and everyone would like that only to find out that the Ridley stage boss turned that stage into one of the worse stages. Sakurai thinks that meeting people half way when it comes to including characters as Assist, Mii Costume, or Spirits makes people happy but it quite literally doesn't amount to much. I'm sure when they sat down to decide for DLC they did say "Why should we turn any of these Assist Trophy characters into actual fighters? I'm positive the fans love that their character is in the game in any kind of form and they can feel like they're playing as them with the Mii Costume. There's no need to make characters like Bomberman and whoever playable because they're already in the game and that's what people want. Let's focus on completely other characters." Sakurai and his team can be tone deaf when it comes to certain aspect of Smash Bros, and they need to really get a good understanding with the fans. I believe that Smash Bros Ultimate is one of the best Smash Bros games because they listen to fan feedback that says make Battlefield variation of stages, turn off hazards, customize rules that can be saved, Final Smash Meter, a mode where we can have three stocks be different characters, and the improved Stage Builder from Wii U, all of that was done from the fan feedback. They need to get more in touch with the fanbase.
It's progress that they've done a lot with fan feedback, though, and it shows that they're listening. Game development isn't as straightforward as it sounds. Money and time goes into these things, and assist trophies take up far less time than a full-fledged newcomer. There's only so much they can do. Sakurai isn't superhuman. In terms of the DLC, too, Nintendo spearheaded the decisions, so that's even more out of his hands.

(Also, 'ey, StormC StormC , great to see you around in the Geno thread again, even if only a little! How you doing?)
 
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wynn728

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It's progress that they've done a lot with fan feedback, though, and it shows that they're listening. Game development isn't as straightforward as it sounds. Money and time goes into these things, and assist trophies take up far less time than a full-fledged newcomer. There's only so much they can do. Sakurai isn't superhuman. In terms of the DLC, too, Nintendo spearheaded the decisions, so that's even more out of his hands.

(Also, 'ey, StormC StormC , great to see you around in the Geno thread again, even if only a little! How you doing?)
I agree with that, but if the Assist Trophies were cut then that development time could've gone somewhere else. Maybe they could've brought back another stage, or added another costume for some of the fighters, or maybe it could've made Piranha Plant part of the base game instead of DLC. Assist Trophies takes up development time regardless of how small it is and it feels like there's better things they could've done with it because the end result leaves use with an over crowded RNG item that doesn't satisfy majority of people and leads to many people just turning off that item when the play.
 

N3ON

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But for every great thing we get we get something that misses the mark completely. Like for example, he knew many people wanted Ridley in the game so in Smash 4 he made Ridley as a stage boss thinking this is a great compromise and everyone would like that only to find out that the Ridley stage boss turned that stage into one of the worse stages. Sakurai thinks that meeting people half way when it comes to including characters as Assist, Mii Costume, or Spirits makes people happy but it quite literally doesn't amount to much. I'm sure when they sat down to decide for DLC they did say "Why should we turn any of these Assist Trophy characters into actual fighters? I'm positive the fans love that their character is in the game in any kind of form and they can feel like they're playing as them with the Mii Costume. There's no need to make characters like Bomberman and whoever playable because they're already in the game and that's what people want. Let's focus on completely other characters." Sakurai and his team can be tone deaf when it comes to certain aspect of Smash Bros, and they need to really get a good understanding with the fans. I believe that Smash Bros Ultimate is one of the best Smash Bros games because they listen to fan feedback that says make Battlefield variation of stages, turn off hazards, customize rules that can be saved, Final Smash Meter, a mode where we can have three stocks be different characters, and the improved Stage Builder from Wii U, all of that was done from the fan feedback. They need to get more in touch with the fanbase.
Made me happy he brought Isaac back instead of the literally nothing he was last time. Obviously playable is the ideal, but by the time supporting content is added, the roster is decided. At that point it's supporting or nothing, not playable or supporting. I'll take something over nothing every time.

It's not Sakurai that is tone-deaf to the fans, it's the fans that are tone-deaf to how development works, consistently overlooking how not everyone can have total appeasement given the finite resources and time available to create the product.
 

Fatmanonice

Unironically mains weird characters.
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Fatmanonice
Would you consider Super Mario RPG's Sound Effects and Music along those lines Fatman? Cause I personally consider Beware the Forests Mushrooms Iconic and the Sound effects iconic as well just less so.
They definitely are. "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" has been a meme several times in both the West and Japan and a lot of people see SMRPG as the game that put Yoko Shimomura on the map. The sound design is great too with many of the sound effects like Geno's charge sound and "Get a Freebie" having a legacy. I kind of want to turn my attention away from SMRPG though since there's two slots left.

-Resident Evil is an iconic series but I would be hard pressed to credit the music or sound effects for that. The ambience of the games? Hell yes, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could hum or whistle an RE theme on the spot or recognize a sound effect as distinctly RE.

-Phoenix Wright is interesting. Aside from "Cornered" it doesn't really have any iconic music but the voice clips are incredibly distinct. HOLD IT! OBJECTION! I feel like this is how the series has cemented itself into gamer culture.

-Crash is another series that I think the sound effects and voice clips are much more recognizable than the actual music. I'm a Boomer but the theme from the original is the only thing that has ever stuck with me.

-Both Halo and Minecraft have very distinct music and sound design but, given Banjo was the big E3 reveal, I'm not expecting more Microsoft characters.

-Indie games kind of have to have good sound design for people to ultimately care about them so it's no surprise that games like Shantae, Undertale, Cave Story, etc were really well done in this regard. I'm not sure what the odds of an indie rep in Smash yet are though.

-Doom is supposed to have really distinct music but I honestly couldn't identify a Doom theme with a gun to my head. I could easily recognize the sound effects though.

These are just some of my general thoughts on what people have been talking about a lot of as of late.
 

MissingGlitch

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Phoenix Wright is interesting. Aside from "Cornered" it doesn't really have any iconic music but the voice clips are incredibly distinct. HOLD IT! OBJECTION! I feel like this is how the series has cemented itself into gamer culture.
I wanted to object to this one. But I hate to admit you are kinda right. I couldn't name off a single song name from Ace Attorney but I could tell you it was from Ace Attorney by hearing it. It's music does have a very unique sound to it. I looked on Spotify for song names but...it wasn't helpful.
Screenshot_20190618-115445.png
 
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I agree with that, but if the Assist Trophies were cut then that development time could've gone somewhere else. Maybe they could've brought back another stage, or added another costume for some of the fighters, or maybe it could've made Piranha Plant part of the base game instead of DLC. Assist Trophies takes up development time regardless of how small it is and it feels like there's better things they could've done with it because the end result leaves use with an over crowded RNG item that doesn't satisfy majority of people and leads to many people just turning off that item when the play.
Agreed. But a lot of fans do like them so Sakurai makes more. I can’t fault him for that.
 
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They definitely are. "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" has been a meme several times in both the West and Japan and a lot of people see SMRPG as the game that put Yoko Shimomura on the map. The sound design is great too with many of the sound effects like Geno's charge sound and "Get a Freebie" having a legacy. I kind of want to turn my attention away from SMRPG though since there's two slots left.

-Resident Evil is an iconic series but I would be hard pressed to credit the music or sound effects for that. The ambience of the games? Hell yes, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could hum or whistle an RE theme on the spot or recognize a sound effect as distinctly RE.

-Phoenix Wright is interesting. Aside from "Cornered" it doesn't really have any iconic music but the voice clips are incredibly distinct. HOLD IT! OBJECTION! I feel like this is how the series has cemented itself into gamer culture.

-Crash is another series that I think the sound effects and voice clips are much more recognizable than the actual music. I'm a Boomer but the theme from the original is the only thing that has ever stuck with me.

-Both Halo and Minecraft have very distinct music and sound design but, given Banjo was the big E3 reveal, I'm not expecting more Microsoft characters.

-Indie games kind of have to have good sound design for people to ultimately care about them so it's no surprise that games like Shantae, Undertale, Cave Story, etc were really well done in this regard. I'm not sure what the odds of an indie rep in Smash yet are though.

-Doom is supposed to have really distinct music but I honestly couldn't identify a Doom theme with a gun to my head. I could easily recognize the sound effects though.

These are just some of my general thoughts on what people have been talking about a lot of as of late.
The only Phoenix Wright music I can think of is the Turnabout Sisters' theme


And tbh the more I think about it Undertale is the only thing that would have a big fan following, have a unique art design/aesthetic, and have iconic music/sound design. Also it most definitely would get a huge reaction from people. But it also seems like the least likely thing because of the fact that other big indie reps got AT'd or spirited and Toby Fox's views on merchandising. RE, Phoenix Wright, and Crash all seem likely even if they don't have all 3 things going for them but as you've pointed out before: Are they too likely/obvious? RE is the one out of all of those I think has a better shot just from how it separates itself visually compared to the other FP characters. Also, who doesn't want to get a remix of Mansion Basement?

 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
4,536
I agree with that, but if the Assist Trophies were cut then that development time could've gone somewhere else. Maybe they could've brought back another stage, or added another costume for some of the fighters, or maybe it could've made Piranha Plant part of the base game instead of DLC. Assist Trophies takes up development time regardless of how small it is and it feels like there's better things they could've done with it because the end result leaves use with an over crowded RNG item that doesn't satisfy majority of people and leads to many people just turning off that item when the play.
I wish like 50% of ATs were playable, but I still don't want ATs to disappear. Not all of the ATs would become playable, so that just means a lot of characters I love are no longer in the game.

If we're talking about stuff I think should be cut for resources, Battlefield and Final Destination forms of stages. I can't bring myself to care about the audience that demands Smash be made less unique to be tailored to their bland taste.
They definitely are. "Beware the Forest's Mushrooms" has been a meme several times in both the West and Japan and a lot of people see SMRPG as the game that put Yoko Shimomura on the map. The sound design is great too with many of the sound effects like Geno's charge sound and "Get a Freebie" having a legacy. I kind of want to turn my attention away from SMRPG though since there's two slots left.

-Resident Evil is an iconic series but I would be hard pressed to credit the music or sound effects for that. The ambience of the games? Hell yes, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could hum or whistle an RE theme on the spot or recognize a sound effect as distinctly RE.

-Phoenix Wright is interesting. Aside from "Cornered" it doesn't really have any iconic music but the voice clips are incredibly distinct. HOLD IT! OBJECTION! I feel like this is how the series has cemented itself into gamer culture.

-Crash is another series that I think the sound effects and voice clips are much more recognizable than the actual music. I'm a Boomer but the theme from the original is the only thing that has ever stuck with me.

-Both Halo and Minecraft have very distinct music and sound design but, given Banjo was the big E3 reveal, I'm not expecting more Microsoft characters.

-Indie games kind of have to have good sound design for people to ultimately care about them so it's no surprise that games like Shantae, Undertale, Cave Story, etc were really well done in this regard. I'm not sure what the odds of an indie rep in Smash yet are though.

-Doom is supposed to have really distinct music but I honestly couldn't identify a Doom theme with a gun to my head. I could easily recognize the sound effects though.

These are just some of my general thoughts on what people have been talking about a lot of as of late.
I would say Ace Attorney has more iconic music (Turnabout Sisters, the Objection themes, Cross Examination, Psyche-Locks, Gumshoe's Theme) but I'm a superfan so maybe they're not iconic, just incredibly memorable to me.
 

N3ON

The Less I Know the Better
GRimer
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I agree with that, but if the Assist Trophies were cut then that development time could've gone somewhere else. Maybe they could've brought back another stage, or added another costume for some of the fighters, or maybe it could've made Piranha Plant part of the base game instead of DLC. Assist Trophies takes up development time regardless of how small it is and it feels like there's better things they could've done with it because the end result leaves use with an over crowded RNG item that doesn't satisfy majority of people and leads to many people just turning off that item when the play.
But the argument isn't "dev time is better spent on things other than the ATs", it's that Sakurai is tone-deaf and people are unhappy with supporting roles. I'm sure a lot of the diehard fanbase would be happy if every mode other than Versus was scrapped to make even more room for characters and stages, but now who would be tone-deaf in thinking anything close to that would actually happen?

No one is calling for ATs to get scrapped. In reality I suspect they and Pokeballs are the most popular items. So it's not like Sakurai is turning a blind eye.

If your grievances are predicated on situations that would never actually happen, like an overhaul of resource distribution, being bitter that such things didn't come to pass is even more unfounded. It's also muddying your original point.
 

Ovaltine

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
2,582
If I had to choose my most wanted character it would be the deuteragonist of the 1996 SNES classic, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. His name is Geno (ジーノ, Jiino) and he's a doll with a gun for a hand. I just think he'd be neat
You know (and it isn't directed at or just you or anything), whenever people mention Geno's abilities, they always cite that he has a gun for a hand, but when you think about it, that's hardly a good descriptor of what he can do. Think about it. He has guns in each and every finger of his hands, as well, and I'm willing to bet he has guns in both of his arms. He's shown to have guns embedded in the joints of his elbows AND his wrists, too! His arms and hands alone are literally LADEN with guns. It's absolutely bonkers.

If they were to take his abilities and evolve upon them, implementing Galaxy inspiration like, say, a star spin with his weaponry could make for some crazy maneuvers. Add guns to his feet and legs, hell, add a gun to his mouth to use as a freaking FLAMETHROWER or something. (Even more hilarious if it has the occasional setback of accidentally setting Geno alight in a cartoony fashion...) Make more things like Geno Whirl, too! Geno Whirl is a chakram. Maybe making blades (OMG HE'S ANOTHER ANIME SWORDSMAN?????) out of star energy, whips out of star energy, rockets out of his feet... I could go on.

Also, he turns into a cannon. INEXPLICABLY, THIS LITTLE SNOT OF A STAR BOY CAN TURN INTO A CANNON AND NO ONE BATS AN EYE? LIKE?? What else could he possibly turn into?! Wouldn't it be nuts if he could turn into a freaking TANK? Listen, if Morgana from Persona 5 can be a bus, Geno can turn into a freaking tank. I need this in my life.

Stuff like this that can be done with creative liberties is why I will never get why people think Geno has no move set potential. He has so much of it. Limiting yourself to his abilities in-game is still plenty, but you can even go beyond that and go absolutely ham.

What I'm saying is Geno needs to turn into a Landmaster. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
 

Vector Victor

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 27, 2019
Messages
194
Mario, Cloud, Rosalina and Luminary just defeat a Sheik copy and move onto the other copies when Luma gets Rosalina's attention at the freed spirit and follows it along with Cloud and Luminary.

Cuts to Mario beating another enemy when a Corrin copy attacks Mario and breaks his shield with his lance arm. Mario is dazed but Bowser and Peach swoop in and defeat Corrin with his claws and her frying pan. But as they are distracted, a Young Link clone comes out from behind some trees and fires an arrow at the vulnerable Mario.

Everyone gasps as the arrow approaches him. But a charging up sound is heard and a beam of light destroys the arrow. Then a fist like rocket hits Young Link and defeats him. Mario becomes undazed and Peach and Bowser join him. Cloud and Luminary approach the three with Luma dancing around Rosalina. Rosalina smiles and steps aside to show their new ally.

GENO Wishes to Join!

Then a giant Dedede pops out and Mario, Peach and Geno line up to fight him.
 
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