Geno (♥♪!?): Return of the Starsend Savior

[EricTheGamerman]

Yeah, you're right. I'm ecstatic B-K are in and I shouldn't be so grumpy over Geno, honestly.

I apologize. I said a lot of stupid and illogical things. Emotions got the better of me again. Yikes.

I mean, I understand the frustrations as I laid out in a previous post how all the pieces are already in place for Geno, Nintendo and Sakurai just have to be willing to actually pull the trigger. Especially in the moment when Fatman has a bit of a history of knowing things and seems to be insinuating, that, yes, we're getting the Geno costume back. I think there's certainly a sentiment through the thread that people are really hoping that the Mii costume doesn't come back because it would likely mean good things for Geno in the future, and the hint of it's return definitely seems to have sent some chills through the post-E3 hype that we had been experiencing in this thread.

Companies can be tone deaf on some things and on the money about others. Making good decisions that please the community doesn’t completely absolve Nintendo of making other mistakes. I don’t think things are that black and white.

Oh I realize that very much. Online was specifically something I pointed to as hugely problematic and emblematic of Nintendo's ****ty decision making with online related stuff in their games. I'll also similarly criticize Nintendo for Pokemon Sword and Shield both looking not great and also cutting Pokemon for the first time in the series. I'll say Super Mario Party was pretty much all around trash as well and the epitome of a rushed product meant to fill a hole in their already barren 2018.

But I don't think Nintendo has made serious mistakes with the Smash roster. Of Smash Ultimate's now 10 unique newcomers, half have already come from fan demand (Inkling, Ridley, Simon Belmont, King K. Rool, and Banjo Kazooie). That's a higher ratio of requested newcomers than any past Smash game. And if you include "Everyone is Here" as part of satisfying fan demand, you'll more or less hyper inflate those numbers. And for all we know, Dragon Quest as a series could have had a Castlevania-esque situation of a number of votes across the series that went unseen (but we'll have to wait on Sakurai's commentary for that). We've had this argument far too many times so I won't get back into it again, but choosing Dragon Quest as the Square Enix rep and relegating other series/characters to Mii costumes isn't really all that tone deaf. If we get the Sora Mii costume, I'll definitely admit I was wrong though. I just see very little of the decisions surrounding Smash Ultimate as grey or otherwise problematic.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'll also similarly criticize Nintendo for Pokemon Sword and Shield both looking not great and also cutting Pokemon for the first time in the series.

Game Freak's incompetence has been utterly baffling. If you look in the code for S/M, their optimization methods are practically next to nothing. They had separate models for Lillie in different areas when they could have just used one universal one, spawning it when needed. They don't know how to trim the fat. It's impressive how little they learned from the Pokemon Gold/Silver fiasco where we almost didn't get Kanto until Nintendo (specifically, the late Iwata-san) came in to fix their garbage code. It's just sad.

On the flipside, Animal Crossing looks like it's going to be a killer. I'm definitely going to make a Geno villager now that I can choose skin tones!! Have they confirmed anything about custom outfits coming back yet? I'm sure they are, all things considered, but I want to be sure.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Game Freak's incompetence has been utterly baffling. If you look in the code for S/M, their optimization methods are practically next to nothing. They had separate models for Lillie in different areas when they could have just used one universal one, spawning it when needed. They don't know how to trim the fat. It's impressive how little they learned from the Pokemon Gold/Silver fiasco where we almost didn't get Kanto until Nintendo (specifically, the late Iwata-san) came in to fix their garbage code. It's just sad.

On the flipside, Animal Crossing looks like it's going to be a killer. I'm definitely going to make a Geno villager now that I can choose skin tones!! Have they confirmed anything about custom outfits coming back yet? I'm sure they are, all things considered, but I want to be sure.

I'd much rather they invested in making one or two Pokemon games per console instead of yearly releases. There used to be something special with Pokemon releases when I was younger, but now it just never ends and a lot of the stuff they've done to try and differentiate newer releases has just come off as poorly thought out or just unnecessary gimmicks. I'd love to see them pull a Breath of the Wild with Pokemon and make something stand out again... but Game Freak will ride their cash cow until they successfully drive away the entire fan base it seems.

And Animal Crossing New Horizons looks absolutely amazing. It looks so much more polished and well thought out than Sword and Shield, and genuinely looks like the sort of thing I was hoping for in an Animal Crossing HD. Beautiful, more creative and free than ever, and developed with proper love and care. I really hope it lives up to my expectations because this E3 footage was top notch. I don't know about custom outfits (or the Abel Sisters coming back in general, I would assume and hope so), but I don't see any reason for them to cut that feature. Animal Crossing has mostly built on itself throughout the years, so I'd be surprised if most major features didn't make a return.

 

[Pokemaster73]

It's been nice seeing Geno being brought up more lately (both positive and negative) thanks to Banjo's inclusion.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I feel like the Geno Mii costume is going to happen because there's no reason for it not to come back.

1. It's a simple port so it's E-Z-MON-AY.
2. Not bringing it back is a catch 22. Either people are mad for giving them nothing or because they suspect you're holding back on the real thing.

This is why I don't think the Mii costume is necessarily the absolute end because, if he's in, congrats you basically just gave it away by not having the costume come back. Simply not bringing it back is not an option, or at least not a smart one, because it's inclusion is a compromise regardless of the final outcome.

 

[Ovaltine]

So, uh...



I didn't know that Nintendo apparently refers to Geno as a 'main character' of SMRPG. I guess this furthers blurs the line on whether Geno is considered a side character or a main character?

 

[Firox]

I'd much rather they invested in making one or two Pokemon games per console instead of yearly releases. There used to be something special with Pokemon releases when I was younger, but now it just never ends and a lot of the stuff they've done to try and differentiate newer releases has just come off as poorly thought out or just unnecessary gimmicks. I'd love to see them pull a Breath of the Wild with Pokemon and make something stand out again... but Game Freak will ride their cash cow until they successfully drive away the entire fan base it seems.

Yeah, I really hate it when companies pull this yearly release BS and destroy what could have been a truly legendary franchise. And cutting Pokemon???!!! Don't even get me started on how much that makes my blood boil, especially since we KNOW that they already made renders for all Gen 6 and older pokemon during the X/Y era. Gamefreak specifically said that they made the models detailed enough to future-proof the franchise for some time, scaling them down for the 3DS as needed. For them to claim that they "didn't have time" to render/animate all the pokemon is a BOLD-FECKING-FACED LIE! They're just being lazy, pure and simple. Hence the new Cinemax mechanic (yes, I misnamed it on purpose). It's literally the lazy dev's mega-evolution. "Hey, let's just supersize them all!" I guess that's their new catch phrase since we all know the original was thrown to the wayside.

I seriously told my friends before the E3 interviews, "If they cut any pokemon, mega-evolutions, or refuse to bring back triple battles, I'm out." Aaaaaand sure enough, they went three for three. Sorry for the rant, but S&S can burn for all I care. I waited 20 years for a main console pokemon. It was supposed to be the greatest of all, and yet we ended up with the lowest point of the series. Absolutely tragic. It's like if the next smash bros were to come out and Nintendo says, "Yeaaaah, so we didn't have the time or hardware to include all the fighters from the last game, so we're going to have to cut the roster down to 50 and lose Banjo, K Rool, Ridley, Cloud, Pokemon Trainer (hehe), Wolf, Megaman, etc." Could you imagine the outcry? Eeesh, it wouldn't be pretty...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Oh wow. Y'all did it. Over 1000 pages

 

[Ovaltine]

For them to claim that they "didn't have time" to render/animate all the pokemon is a BOLD-FECKING-FACED LIE!

Did they actually say that? That's total bull**** if they did because they have the assets for literally every other Pokemon aside from new ones. They just have to port prior models and animations from the prior games. The 3DS models are compressed and are actually of far higher quality normally. They're just trying to dodge responsibility if this is what they're spewing.

 

[Datboigeno]

So, uh...

View attachment 228392

I didn't know that Nintendo apparently refers to Geno as a 'main character' of SMRPG. I guess this furthers blurs the line on whether Geno is considered a side character or a main character?

What the heck? Where is that from?

 

[Ovaltine]

What the heck? Where is that from?

It's a screenshot of the old Nintendo-sponsored HQ quiz from TGA. You can see in the bottom portion where it says 'THEGAMEAWARDS'. It's from the very one we've been citing, and I've never seen the actual wording of it until now.

Very interesting to me.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Oh wow. Y'all did it. Over 1000 pages

Yes, Fearless Leader™, we've been hard at work here. Basically just tossing about one of the latest rumors that the next batch of Mii costumes is going to piss off a lot of people.

 

[Datboigeno]

It's a screenshot of the old Nintendo-sponsored HQ quiz from TGA. You can see in the bottom portion where it says 'THEGAMEAWARDS'. It's from the very one we've been citing, and I've never seen the actual wording of it until now.

Very interesting to me.

Ah okay I was going to say if it was another officially sponsored Nintendo quiz thing referring to Geno that’d be a big red flag. But yeah the argument that Geno isn’t a main character in SMRPG always seemed like one coming from people who didn’t actually play the game. Because he clearly is a main character in it on the level of Peach, Bowser, and Geno.

 

[Firox]

Did they actually say that? That's total bull**** if they did because they have the assets for literally every other Pokemon aside from new ones. They just have to port prior models and animations from the prior games. The 3DS models are compressed and are actually of far higher quality normally. They're just trying to dodge responsibility if this is what they're spewing.

Yes, they did. It is fact that they compressed the models and they themselves said that they constructed them all at higher resolution specifically to "future-proof" the series in the event of upgraded hardware. Welp, we got the hardware now, SO WHERE ARE THE MODELS????!!! They lie through their teeth, knowing that Pokemon can sell on brand name alone. This is why I hate it when franchises get too big. They reach a certain level of invulnerability where no matter what trash they put out, people buy it hand over fist. Nintendo itself has already reached that point, hence why they can make people pay for a laughable online service and still sell like hotcakes. The only way to force quality back into the system, is to tell them in the only language they know: the money. The cheddar. The gold coins, as it were. Stop paying for mediocrity and maybe, just maybe, they'll see the light. That's why I'm hoping that GF postpones the release of S&S until they backtrack on their craziness. Otherwise, I'm boycotting that game.

 

[Ovaltine]

Yes, they did. It is fact that they compressed the models and they themselves said that they constructed them all at higher resolution specifically to "future-proof" the series in the event of upgraded hardware. Welp, we got the hardware now, SO WHERE ARE THE MODELS????!!! They lie through their teeth, knowing that Pokemon can sell on brand name alone. This is why I hate it when franchises get too big. They reach a certain level of invulnerability where no matter what trash they put out, people buy it hand over fist. Nintendo itself has already reached that point, hence why they can make people pay for a laughable online service and still sell like hotcakes. The only way to force quality back into the system, is to tell them in the only language they know: the money. The cheddar. The gold coins, as it were. Stop paying for mediocrity and maybe, just maybe, they'll see the light. That's why I'm hoping that GF postpones the release of S&S until they backtrack on their craziness. Otherwise, I'm boycotting that game.

Welp, I was considering buying Pokemon Sword when it came out, but I refuse to now. I'm not about to support deliberate incompetence fueled by lies with my money. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are amazing enough for me anyway.

 

[GoodGrief741]

But they haven't really made a "Brain-Dead" decision for Ultimate yet they added characters we wanted and some we didn't know we wanted with the Roster being absolutely fantastic and while we don't have a lot of modes that isn't really a brain-dead "decision" more like time constraint. There hasn't been a pattern of bad decisions so I don't know why it would start now. That just doesn't seem right to me.

I have faith in Nintendo, If they wanted and got Banjo the same could be said for Geno. Nintendo has shown time and time again that they would put Geno in Smash if they could and Sakurai absolutely wants Geno in Smash. I have faith in both Nintendo and Sakurai.

I'd say a plant as a playable character is one of the most "Brain-Dead" decisions I've seen in my life. Ultimate certainly has quite of those (having a box reveal the number of characters left, leave Incineroar and Ken for the final reveals, etc)

 

[Pokemaster73]

So, uh...

View attachment 228392

I didn't know that Nintendo apparently refers to Geno as a 'main character' of SMRPG. I guess this furthers blurs the line on whether Geno is considered a side character or a main character?

I don't understand why people would argue that he isn't one of the main characters in the game. He's one of the first party members you pick up and is critical to the story. How would that make him a side character?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

If we do end up getting Geno Mii costume I hope it also has a mallow one

 

[ShotoStar 2]

I'd say a plant as a playable character is one of the most "Brain-Dead" decisions I've seen in my life. Ultimate certainly has quite of those (having a box reveal the number of characters left, leave Incineroar and Ken for the final reveals, etc)

Okay I have to disagree there. Only one of those things were really "Brain-Dead" and that was Box Theory being legit not even I thought Nintendo would screw up that bad, They did but everything else isn't really "Brain-Dead".

Piranha Plant wasn't really a "Brain-Dead" decision in fact I'd say it's the exact opposite, While nobody really wanted Piranha Plant at all that wasn't the reason he added PPlant. Sakurai added PPlant to stretch his creativity muscles and guess what? He succeeded Piranha Plant is one of the most WTF and Unique newcomers in all of Smash. Not a lot of people could've done as good with Piranha Plant as Sakurai did with them, Not everybody could even make a move-set for Piranha Plant and even if they did nobody would realistically see it in Smash but it is in Smash and Sakurai did a good job with it, It wasn't really a "Brain-Dead" decision. Sakurai set out to make one of the most WTF and Unique characters in Smash and he succeeded in doing so fantastically.

And for Kencineroar, Sakurai never chooses to reveal the best characters last that's not even a pattern for Sakurai. Sakurai and Co always go with the big hitters first and reveal the less hype characters last and as far as "Least Hype" characters go those two are pretty good in hindsight, I would've loved for them to save K. Rool, Simon or Ridley for the final reveal but they didn't most likely cause they wanted to maximize on Pre-Order sales with revealing the bigger characters earlier.

And for the common people who aren't too deep into the Smash Scene or not at all this would most likely be hype for them, There's a lot of Pokemon Fans and Street Fighter fans I know or whom I know of that were happy with the final two reveals. Not everything can be a fan favorite or massive, Mind blowing reveal sometimes you gotta choose characters for the common folk who're just casual Nintendo fans and for what that was I think they did it pretty well.

None of what you mentioned except for Box Theory is really "Brain-Dead" in my opinion

 

[Vector Victor]

I don't understand why people would argue that he isn't one of the main characters in the game. He's one of the first party members you pick up and is critical to the story. How would that make him a side character?

Kind of like how Crono is seen as the main character despite no dialogue and its really Marle and Lucca who drive the plot.

The question of 'main' character can also be discussed based off another better example: Vaan. Is he the MAIN character or just the player vehicle?

 

[wynn728]

Talk behind the scenes right now is that the second Mii costume pack is going to be really salt inducing and I think I know why. Remember that list of seven accidentally leaked last year? My theory is that all of those characters are technically going to be playable. We already have Luminary, Erdrick, and Slime and Geno's a simple port so the costume returning is really high anyways meaning I theorize that Crono and Sora are both going to wind up as new Mii costumes. Not sure if this is definite because people are being super vague about it but someone even commented that the reveal video was probably going to be bombed with dislikes. I honestly can't think of anything else that would trigger that negative of a reaction.

There is no way a Sora Mii Costume is going to happen. If that was real that means they had to negotiate with Disney to use Sora's likeness. If you're going through the trouble of getting Sora for a Mii Costume then you should go all the way to actually use him. Though honestly I do feel like these Mii Costume reveal video should be bombed with dislikes. Barely anyone uses the Mii Fighters and the costumes make you look like the bootleg version of the character. Sakurai may think that these costume are a way to feel like you're play as them, with a good example being the comment he made about Rex, but we need to tell them that Mii Costume aren't a good thing. I refuse to buy any of them from the last Smash Bros game, I rather the development time that was use to make Mii Costume was put into costume for the fighters. Let's get a Dry Bowser costume, a Shadow costume for Sonic, I would happily pay $1 for each fighter costume than I would if they somehow had a deal that allows me to buy every single Mii Costume for a total of $0.75.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Okay I have to disagree there. Only one of those things were really "Brain-Dead" and that was Box Theory being legit not even I thought Nintendo would screw up that bad, They did but everything else isn't really "Brain-Dead".

Piranha Plant wasn't really a "Brain-Dead" decision in fact I'd say it's the exact opposite, While nobody really wanted Piranha Plant at all that wasn't the reason he added PPlant. Sakurai added PPlant to stretch his creativity muscles and guess what? He succeeded Piranha Plant is one of the most WTF and Unique newcomers in all of Smash. Not a lot of people could've done as good with Piranha Plant as Sakurai did with them, Not everybody could even make a move-set for Piranha Plant and even if they did nobody would realistically see it in Smash but it is in Smash and Sakurai did a good job with it, It wasn't really a "Brain-Dead" decision. Sakurai set out to make one of the most WTF and Unique characters in Smash and he succeeded in doing so fantastically.

And for Kencineroar, Sakurai never chooses to reveal the best characters last that's not even a pattern for Sakurai. Sakurai and Co always go with the big hitters first and reveal the less hype characters last and as far as "Least Hype" characters go those two are pretty good in hindsight, I would've loved for them to save K. Rool, Simon or Ridley for the final reveal but they didn't most likely cause they wanted to maximize on Pre-Order sales with revealing the bigger characters earlier.

And for the common people who aren't too deep into the Smash Scene or not at all this would most likely be hype for them, There's a lot of Pokemon Fans and Street Fighter fans I know or whom I know of that were happy with the final two reveals. Not everything can be a fan favorite or massive, Mind blowing reveal sometimes you gotta choose characters for the common folk who're just casual Nintendo fans and for what that was I think they did it pretty well.

None of what you mentioned except for Box Theory is really "Brain-Dead" in my opinion

And yet, PR-wise, it's a terrible decision to end a marketing campaign at a low point, and it's a terrible decision to potentially alienate fans to stretch creative muscles.

 

[Penguinbowler]

And yet, PR-wise, it's a terrible decision to end a marketing campaign at a low point, and it's a terrible decision to potentially alienate fans to stretch creative muscles.

It hasn't worked against sakurai yet, now has it? That is also ignoring the fact Incineroar is very popular in Japan. Also i find the argument about "braindead" character choices funny because Geno would likely get in the same way as Pirahna Plant. Sakurai would ask to be able to use him because he want's to make him playable. Other then the rare times when nintendo forces a character in the game, that is the only rule. Does Sakurai want it? Plant isn't even that unusual, after all we also have a failed peripheral, a dou who have only been in one game before that isn't even a massive classic, a character made infamous for taunting the players, a coach from a fitness game, a race car driver, a character who runs at lower frame rate on purpose, and Jigglypuff.

 

[Wazygoose]

There's just no reason to believe that if Geno is a costume, he could still be a fighter.

1. People would complain that they dropped money on a costume when they could have just waited and gotten the fighter.
2. Costumes and assist trophies have not been upgraded to a fighter in the same Smash Bros game ever before.
3. I doubt Nintendo would drop a costume just to throw people off the scent. Relatively few people are going to find the lack of a costume suspicious.

 

[T2by4]

I feel like the Geno Mii costume is going to happen because there's no reason for it not to come back.

1. It's a simple port so it's E-Z-MON-AY.
2. Not bringing it back is a catch 22. Either people are mad for giving them nothing or because they suspect you're holding back on the real thing.

This is why I don't think the Mii costume is necessarily the absolute end because, if he's in, congrats you basically just gave it away by not having the costume come back. Simply not bringing it back is not an option, or at least not a smart one, because it's inclusion is a compromise regardless of the final outcome.

You all remember what happened to Rex right? Sakurai apologized to xb2 fans since he couldn't get them in since there wasnt enough time. Who's to say he gives us the mii costume and then adds geno later? The only thing I can think of that would downplay this is if it's paid. If we have to pay for geno mii costume again... It's game over.

 

[Ovaltine]

There's just no reason to believe that if Geno is a costume, he could still be a fighter.

1. People would complain that they dropped money on a costume when they could have just waited and gotten the fighter.
2. Costumes and assist trophies have not been upgraded to a fighter in the same Smash Bros game ever before.
3. I doubt Nintendo would drop a costume just to throw people off the scent. Relatively few people are going to find the lack of a costume suspicious.

I'd agree in terms of the Fighter's Pass and any immediate DLC, but in terms of future plans, I don't see why that would be a problem. For one, we don't have much of a pattern in terms of what gets promoted in different installments, given this is only the second game in the series to get DLC. Secondly, I sincerely doubt many people would end up crying over 75 cents.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

And yet, PR-wise, it's a terrible decision to end a marketing campaign at a low point, and it's a terrible decision to potentially alienate fans to stretch creative muscles.

Everyone was already sold on Ultimate by November 1. The momentum of Ultimate was impossible to stop, and as much as people would like to ***** about that Direct til the end of time on these boards, it didn't change a damn thing. The hype was already there, they had succeeded in hooking just about anyone with even a passing interest in the game. That Direct was just giving the rest of the information they had prior to release. It was just an info dump. The months of playable demos, the hype of E3 and the August Direct, the just overall feel of the hype cycle ensured that it didn't matter. At some point they had to drop the information on people that they didn't want to hear. The end is actually such an excellent place to do that because of what I've mentioned above. You've already shown your fans a ton of stuff to impress them and excite them. People were willing to buy the game for a King K. Rool or a Ridley. Once those characters were in, people stop caring as much about the roster. There's always someone else you'd like in the game... but Nintendo already has potentially included your most wanted or top character choices. Complaining about the fact that the game has one or two additional characters that aren't specifically to your liking also becomes a lot less convincing of an argument to belittle the game for. Very few people were alienated by those decisions. If they were, the sales sure as hell do not reflect that in the slightest.

The best selling Smash game of all time in less than 4 months. Regardless of the decision in a vacuum, in reality, the decision was perfectly fine and cost them practically nothing of significance.

And Mr. Game and Watch and Ice Climbers got in Smash before Wario, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, etc. Smash has always been a series that has priortized creativity at certain points above traditional character choices (Even Captain Falcon seems like a weird choice for Smash 64). Creativity brought some of the most interesting characters and identity to Smash. Those sorts of decisions haven't negatively affected Smash in the past based upon sales and have done more to enrich the roster in all honesty. We were never going to get all fan requests, and we never will. It's either Sakurai flexing his creativity and making specific choices or Nintendo arbitrarily including shill picks. I'd much rather have the creativity of the man who has made literally every character he has tried his hand with work in the past.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think Geno's situation is different because it's a simple port so why wouldn't they sell it? No third party costumes were available at the start of Ultimate so it's honestly the only way they could bring it back aside from something like a free gift. Plus, like Ovaltine said, it's less than a dollar so it's not like people will have to toil in the salt mines to afford it.

 

[Firox]

It hasn't worked against sakurai yet, now has it? That is also ignoring the fact Incineroar is very popular in Japan. Also i find the argument about "braindead" character choices funny because Geno would likely get in the same way as Pirahna Plant. Sakurai would ask to be able to use him because he want's to make him playable. Other then the rare times when nintendo forces a character in the game, that is the only rule. Does Sakurai want it? Plant isn't even that unusual, after all we also have a failed peripheral, a dou who have only been in one game before that isn't even a massive classic, a character made infamous for taunting the players, a coach from a fitness game, a race car driver, a character who runs at lower frame rate on purpose, and Jigglypuff.

I don't think you can lump Geno into the same boat as WFT, Duck Hunt, ROB, G&W and Piranha plant. Geno is relatively obscure to the general gaming world, however he has a relatively MASSIVE fan following (oh, hi there!) and an easily derivable moveset. The others would comprise Sakurai's list of "WTF" characters, most of which were never asked for due to the fact that they weren't previously even regarded by the general public as characters in the first place. While many have praised Sakurai for the creativity behind them, just as many have been bitter to see their dream picks flushed down the toilet in lieu of things like a potted plant or as you said, a failed peripheral. I mean, it's technically Sakurai's game and the choices ultimately belong to him, but it doesn't mean everyone is going to gush at his eccentricities. And for the record, I highly doubt PP would have sold very well if it had been paid DLC. Consider the fact that it didn't even come with its own stage. If it hadn't been free, I guarantee you I wouldn't have even thought of buying it. If you want DLC to sell, you have to give the people something THEY want. Not necessarily just what YOU want as a developer.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't think you can lump Geno into the same boat as WFT, Duck Hunt, ROB, G&W and Piranha plant. Geno is relatively obscure to the general gaming world, however he has a relatively MASSIVE fan following (oh, hi there!) and an easily derivable moveset. The others would comprise Sakurai's list of "WTF" characters, most of which were never asked for due to the fact that they weren't previously even regarded by the general public as characters in the first place. While many have praised Sakurai for the creativity behind them, just as many have been bitter to see their dream picks flushed down the toilet in lieu of things like a potted plant or as you said, a failed peripheral. I mean, it's technically Sakurai's game and the choices ultimately belong to him, but it doesn't mean everyone is going to gush at his eccentricities. And for the record, I highly doubt PP would have sold very well if it had been paid DLC. Consider the fact that it didn't even come with its own stage. If it hadn't been free, I guarantee you I wouldn't have even thought of buying it. If you want DLC to sell, you have to give the people something THEY want. Not necessarily just what YOU want as a developer.

It's pretty easy to convince Smash fans to buy things though. You don't have to give them something that the fans specifically want (That's the easiest way though), but you just have to be able to package it and advertise it in a way that appeals to players of the game. And with an install base of 13+ million, you're going to have a pretty decent success rate just by having new major content available for your game and appeal to people who didn't even know they wanted the particular option until they saw it. Plenty of people like Smash enough to just buy all the characters and we've normalized that kind of behavior in society with Seasons of content for fighting games anyway.

Also, R.O.B. was one of Brawl's best newcomers and nobody will convince me otherwise lol.

 

[MattX20]

Unrelated question, but if Geno does end up being a Mii Costume and it turns out Professor Layton or Phoenix Wright are one of the last two Fighter Pass characters, how would you feel?

 

[Firox]

It's pretty easy to convince Smash fans to buy things though. You don't have to give them something that the fans specifically want (That's the easiest way though), but you just have to be able to package it and advertise it in a way that appeals to players of the game. And with an install base of 13+ million, you're going to have a pretty decent success rate just by having new major content available for your game and appeal to people who didn't even know they wanted the particular option until they saw it. Plenty of people like Smash enough to just buy all the characters and we've normalized that kind of behavior in society with Seasons of content for fighting games anyway.

Also, R.O.B. was one of Brawl's best newcomers and nobody will convince me otherwise lol.

I have to agree with you there on both counts. Firstly, it really is easy to sell to smash fans. Too easy, if you ask me. Sakurai could openly announce that he plans for Geno to fade into obscurity forever, but that won't stop people from buying, say, a goomba as a fighter. Or a wii mote with arms and legs. Hell, I'm sure there's people out there that would shamelessly buy another straight-up Marth clone if you offered them one. But then we get into the same territory as Pokemon is right now. You pay for mediocrity, you keep getting mediocrity. Smash is already reaching that "bullet proof" status where the next game could be grossly underdeveloped but it would still sell like hotcakes. It is what is, I guess. A great franchise for now, but hopefully it stays that way...

And as for ROB, he really was one of the best newcomers of Brawl. Can't argue too much with that one, but I was pretty hyped about Sonic and Snake though.

 

[Ovaltine]

Wait, was ROB hated back in the day? Did someone really hate ROB? Don't be dissing my good robot boy you absolute cretins

Unrelated question, but if Geno does end up being a Mii Costume and it turns out Professor Layton or Phoenix Wright are one of the last two Fighter Pass characters, how would you feel?

I'd feel sad for Geno, of course, but Layton would be cool to see (don't have any personal experience with him, though) and Phoenix would be awesome.

 

[MissingGlitch]

Unrelated question, but if Geno does end up being a Mii Costume and it turns out Professor Layton or Phoenix Wright are one of the last two Fighter Pass characters, how would you feel?

Phoenix Wright edges out Geno for me. So if this is the sacrifice I need to make then a soul for a soul.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have to agree with you there on both counts. Firstly, it really is easy to sell to smash fans. Too easy, if you ask me. Sakurai could openly announce that he plans for Geno to fade into obscurity forever, but that won't stop people from buying, say, a goomba as a fighter. Or a wii mote with arms and legs. Hell, I'm sure there's people out there that would shamelessly buy another straight-up Marth clone if you offered them one. But then we get into the same territory as Pokemon is right now. You pay for mediocrity, you keep getting mediocrity. Smash is already reaching that "bullet proof" status where the next game could be grossly underdeveloped but it would still sell like hotcakes. It is what is, I guess. A great franchise for now, but hopefully it stays that way...

And as for ROB, he really was one of the best newcomers of Brawl. Can't argue too much with that one, but I was pretty hyped about Sonic and Snake though.

As long as Sakurai is at the helm of Smash, I have faith in him to do the best with whatever characters he decides to make. I've honestly yet to be seriously disappointed by the attributes of a unique newcomer in Smash. Sure, certain characters haven't excited me as much as others might have and I may have preferred certain characters to others, but I'd say we've yet to actually see a decline in quality of the characters. Nothing about Ultimate even hints at mediocrity, in fact, quite the opposite. In an era where Street Fighter V and Mortal Kombat 11 exist, Ultimate serves as the embodiment of effort and fan service. It's the largest mainstream fighting game to not absolutely nickel and dime fans (Mii costumes come close, but I'll give them a pass considering what is actually in Ultimate) and cut the roster to absurdly low numbers.

I'm on watch to see how Nintendo handles itself over the next few years because I think it's possible that Nintendo will only slack more and more as the industry gets worse and worse and normalizes even more disgusting and predatory behavior (yay, an unrestricted model capitalism in a medium that nobody cares enough about to hold accountable for their blatant abuse of a consumer base...). We've seen that with some Switch titles while others have been excellent, so I don't suspect a day will come when Smash is in real danger of falling into mediocrity. But, for now, I'm hopeful for Smash's continued success under Sakurai and most Nintendo games outside of Pokemon.

 

[Penguinbowler]

I don't think you can lump Geno into the same boat as WFT, Duck Hunt, ROB, G&W and Piranha plant. Geno is relatively obscure to the general gaming world, however he has a relatively MASSIVE fan following (oh, hi there!) and an easily derivable moveset. The others would comprise Sakurai's list of "WTF" characters, most of which were never asked for due to the fact that they weren't previously even regarded by the general public as characters in the first place. While many have praised Sakurai for the creativity behind them, just as many have been bitter to see their dream picks flushed down the toilet in lieu of things like a potted plant or as you said, a failed peripheral. I mean, it's technically Sakurai's game and the choices ultimately belong to him, but it doesn't mean everyone is going to gush at his eccentricities. And for the record, I highly doubt PP would have sold very well if it had been paid DLC. Consider the fact that it didn't even come with its own stage. If it hadn't been free, I guarantee you I wouldn't have even thought of buying it. If you want DLC to sell, you have to give the people something THEY want. Not necessarily just what YOU want as a developer.

No i'm just pointing out there is one thing needed for a character to get in, sakurai wanting them to be in. geno is more in the same boat as Rildey, K Rool, and Banjo, as a "This will please the fans" thing. The WTF character argument was more directed to the people in this thread who said plant was a "Braindead" pick, and me showing sakurai can get any character he really want's in it, as long as the company holding the character is willing to play with nintendo. Nintendo and Square are unlikely to approach Sakurai with "Add Geno to Smash" he will need to go out and ask both companies for it.

 

[T2by4]

Unrelated question, but if Geno does end up being a Mii Costume and it turns out Professor Layton or Phoenix Wright are one of the last two Fighter Pass characters, how would you feel?

I'd off myself.

 

[MajoraMan28]

MajoraMan28

My man, I think Tifa's going to get an even bigger nerf than she did in FF7R.

Hahahahahaha
I'll say, I'll lmfao if they actually keep the traits the way they are even now. X'D
And no, I'm not going to bite a certain someone's bait for the Tifa bust discussion.

And regarding Mii costumes, I think those that he mentioned are pretty much what I listed for a Sephiroth pack more than a semester ago. Those would be perfect.
However, given how Joker worked, we would get 3 of the series' costumes and returning costumes. I don't see FFVII costumes coming this time around.
I'm wondering who the other two DQ costumes might be. Maybe the the DQ Heroes guy or the Builders protag (Sakurai did say he loved those games)

Wait, was ROB hated back in the day? Did someone really hate ROB? Don't be dissing my good robot boy you absolute cretins

People were quite mad back in the day that a random robot got in over heavily requested characters like Geno, Isaac and others.
Pretty much kinda what Piranha Plant had to endure with in terms of hate when the game launched.

 

[Ovaltine]

I'd off myself.

At ease, my friend. I love Geno, too, and his exclusion makes me feel sad and hollow, but uh

hoo

 

[Fatmanonice]

Unrelated question, but if Geno does end up being a Mii Costume and it turns out Professor Layton or Phoenix Wright are one of the last two Fighter Pass characters, how would you feel?

Hard to say. I think part of the edge of Phoenix coming to Smash was kind of taken out when he first came to Marvel Vs Capcom instead but I'd still like to see what all they would do with him. As for Layton, I've never played the games so I have no idea how he would work. He's one of those characters that I know a lot of people wanted for Brawl and then hardly anyone really talked about him that much after that. I would, however, kind of see it as a miracle since it's main competition is Yokai Watch since they're both made by Level-5.