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Q&A Generic Fox Matchup Q&A (See the MU discussion thread for in depth talk!)

M@v

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We have a Fox matchup thread, located here.

That being said, I've seen quite a few threads recently pop up that basically go like this:

"I am having trouble with X character, help!"

A lot of the time these threads are on characters we aren't currently covering. So, if you need to ask a question regarding a certain matchup, this will be the place to do it. This will be more informal, with no real sense of weekly discussion. That will be for the main thread, so be sure to participate. From here on out, I'll start locking any new Q&A threads for particular characters, as they can clog up the forum. The goal of this is to make things more tidy around here :yeahboi:
 
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EPM

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Ok so can we talk about ZSS? ZSS mains are psychos and they think that Fox wins the MU and apso that ZSS isn't that good... Does anybody here think it's at least even?? Seems like an easy loss to me but the best player in NE is a ZSS so maybe that's why
 
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Top Boss

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i honestly haven't played many ZSS' as Fox, but judging by her tools and shortcomings, I think the matchup is probably even or 55:45 in ZSS favor. Our mobility makes it hard for her to land the grab, but at the same time, we're in for trouble if she can get her hands on us.
 

elmike

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Ok so can we talk about ZSS? ZSS mains are psychos and they think that Fox wins the MU and apso that ZSS isn't that good... Does anybody here think it's at least even?? Seems like an easy loss to me but the best player in NE is a ZSS so maybe that's why
IMO ZSS relies heavily on reading how to grab, and how to perform great the uair->uair->upB string.
If a ZSS player is good in both, then the MU is in favor to ZSS. If not, i think its a little bit better for fox.
 

Jontho

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I was just wondering if we have a set of lists that has info on stage strikes and bans etc.
Would be nice if we had a compiled list IMO.
 

EpicSonicLatios

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Toon link is an MU that bugs me to death. He can use his projectiles to wall you out and juggle you with utilt, but the worst part is that he is hard to combo. Practicing your projectile handling skills/powershielding works wonders for this matchup. For normal link, I want to try and see if it is possible to react to fully charged arrows, because this would give us an edge in closing the gap against link.

Some other interesting notes: against captain falcon, I have noticed that SH bair is amazing at blocking out his dash attack, and you can also stuff it with Ftilt. Technically dash attack and Ftilt trade, but you can kinda cheat and move up a tiny bit right before he gets there to try and hit him before the move actually comes out. Falcon is tricky because he has an amazing shieldgrab and dash attack, but since your attacks beat his grab out, it's a matter of beating his dash attack.
 

M@v

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ZSS mu is 55:45 Fox's favor imo. In a nutshell:

Pros for Fox:
-Fantastic at punishing ZSS
-Stun blaster is essentially worthless vs fox because of reflector
-Fox can match ZSS's mobility
-Aerials are a match for ZSS in terms of power and range.
-A whiffed grab by ZSS = anything you want as Fox.

Pros for ZSS:
-Fox is a Fast faller and light, so upb combos can kill him ridiculously early. Like even more early than normal.
-Doesn't really have to worry about being gimped by Fox.
-Gets more of of specific stages than Fox does (I.E. Low ceilings help her even more than Fox)
-Has plenty of edgeguarding choices vs Fox.
 
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colinies

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ZSS mu is 55:45 Fox's favor imo. In a nutshell:

Pros for Fox:
-Fantastic at punishing ZSS
-Stun blaster is essentially worthless vs fox because of reflector
-Fox can match ZSS's mobility
-Aerials are a match for ZSS in terms of power and range.
-A whiffed grab by ZSS = anything you want as Fox.

Pros for ZSS:
-Fox is a Fast faller and light, so upb combos can kill him ridiculously early. Like even more early than normal.
-Doesn't really have to worry about being gimped by Fox.
-Gets more of of specific stages than Fox does (I.E. Low ceilings help her even more than Fox)
-Has plenty of edgeguarding choices vs Fox.
Agree, this matchup is pretty nice. ZSS's are constantly in the air so Nair, Bair, and Uair are all great options to keep them honest. Just play anti grab, its pretty hard for her to land it if she cant be more mobile than you
 

elmike

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which do you consider the top 10 most difficult MU for Fox, and good stages to pick and to avoid against them?


For example, here is what i consider the worst MU (but not sure if there are stages that are better to avoid or to pick against them):

TOP
Rosalina

HIGH
Luigi
Ness
Sheik

MID
Mario
Little Mac (here i know i should avoid FD/Omega)
Ryu

LOW
ZSS
Olimar
Pikachu?
 

EPM

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I'd put Ryu and Luigi pretty much as high as Rosalina in difficulty. I think the Little Mac matchup is still in our favor, especially if we can avoid FD but I'm not even afraid of Little Mac then since side B functions as a great escape tool in that MU.
Pikachu is quite a hard matchup too, harder than Mario and Sheik I think. Punishing Pikachu is just so hard and we rely on punishes so much...

Ness is definitely a negative matchup (that back throw!) but I think it's low negative. Fast fall fair destroys Ness when he's trying to recover so we can actually gimp him quite easily.
 

M@v

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which do you consider the top 10 most difficult MU for Fox, and good stages to pick and to avoid against them?
I think Fox only has 3-5 matchups in the game where he actually loses.

1.Rosalina (probably 35:65)

-gap-

2. Luigi...? (It was 4:6 pre-patch; admit tingly I don't have enough experience post patch)
3. Ryu (could see fox losing 4:6, but I've only seen the mu played once at top level, and that was larry and trela)

-gap-

Sheik (45:55)
Robin (4:6 or 45:55 on small stages, even/fox advantage on larger stages)

After that I don't think there are any other characters who straight up beat Fox. I mean he's a top tier, and likely top 5 (at least in my book), so he's not supposed to have many bad matchups. As for potential characters that could give trouble, Kirby can be a hard mu if you don't know how to deal with dair; its such a godly move. As for me personally, I suck with Fox vs a lot of the fat characters usually. Even though he wins those mus, I just always seem to find my way into charged smashes LOL. Robin completely demolishes every large character though so I can always switch to her if I have issues.

As for your list:

TOP
Rosalina -Listed above

HIGH
Luigi - Listed above
Ness - This is even in my book. Fox won when he had the double jab lock. You need to get good at going off stage vs Ness (Its tricky because of how strong pk thunder is). Practice ledge trumping him; really good vs him. Fox completely shuts down pk fire. If he hits you with pk fire, you can actually spam jab between the pk fire hits. This counters the bread-n-butter pkfire to grab that 99% of Ness's do. You can also get a lot of damage off Ness this way. The way they counter it is to throw another pk fire, so stop it when they catch on.
Sheik - Listed above

MID
Mario -Even (I can go into it more later)
Little Mac (here i know i should avoid FD/Omega)- Fox still wins this one, but he definitely doesn't destroy mac like some characters do)
Ryu - Listed above

LOW
ZSS - Fox wins this one Imo 55:45. Yes she can kill you early and edgeguard super well, but you should own the neutral in this MU. Stun blaster is worthless vs you because reflector, and one whiffed grab results in any punish you want.
Olimar - Probably even. Only ever played this matchup at a high level once, vs Meyran. He 0-2'd me, but the games were both last hit last stock.
Pikachu? - Even as well. It is a fun MU too imo. Nair all day. Nair shuts down pikachu's QAC shenanigans.
 
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elmike

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And what about stages versus the bad/difficult MU?
For example, a stage(s) that plays in favour to fox versus luigi, ryu, rosa, etc...
 

M@v

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And what about stages versus the bad/difficult MU?
For example, a stage(s) that plays in favour to fox versus luigi, ryu, rosa, etc...
Rosa- Not really any stage that you get any sort of extra help on. Stages that are good to ban: Halberd, Delfino, Town and City, FD.

Luigi- Duck hunt and FD are your best choices. "Lame" it out. Run from him and let the lasers fly. Hit and run attacks. Abuse his lack of movement. If he bans both of them, I'd take him to delfino (if its legal), or Bf/Dreamland. Town and City is probably good now too since he doesn't have downthrow->down b anymore.

Ryu- Unsure. Haven't played them enough. I can say avoid the low ceiling stages though; Ryu gets way more out of them than you do.

Robin- Same approach as luigi. Just be careful of getting caught on the ledge vs him/her.

Sheik- I always ban Smashville and Lylat usually.
 

alexthepony

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does long lasting hbox beat fox sideb, or just at the end of it, how does it work, how di I beat it if I see it coming/read it
 
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M@v

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I can probably do a Fox vs Rosa one once I start making videos. I play the matchup with Aki a lot, and I'm willing to lay money he's a top 10 rosa in the country. Granted, probably closer to 10, but regardless. Haven't personally faced one better than him other than Dabuz so far.
 

colinies

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I can probably do a Fox vs Rosa one once I start making videos. I play the matchup with Aki a lot, and I'm willing to lay money he's a top 10 rosa in the country. Granted, probably closer to 10, but regardless. Haven't personally faced one better than him other than Dabuz so far.
Hmm interesting, I played Aki once in Youngstown. But yeah, if you could that would be great
 

EpicSonicLatios

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Ok, so after playing against cloud frequently, I have noticed that one thing we have going for us in this MU is that we make it very hard for him to land once we get him airborne. He may have disjoints on his aerials, but he has no burst movement options in the air to escape, and his aerials have punishable end lag if he tries to land with them. If you see a cloud player, or any other character for that matter, that constantly relies on fast falling to the ground to land, make sure to punish it with dash attack, as they will often not be expecting it. This can give us deadly momentum switches and allow us to capitalize harder after we have won the neutral, which is especially crucial against characters that can kill us quickly, or abuse our punishable recovery.
 
D

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I wanted to ask if Fox has any HORRIBLE match-ups, like MUs that are so bad they're near unwinnable, or close to 30-70?

Any tips on beating Link?
You have way more speed and a reflector. You can juggle the man with ease, and once he's above you there's not much he can do. If you notice him dair at some point use that to your knowledge and bait it out later on. It's a pretty punishable move. Pressure him with lasers when he isn't standing still (since his shield blocks them) and reflect several of the projectiles that he sends your way.
 

colinies

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I wanted to ask if Fox has any HORRIBLE match-ups, like MUs that are so bad they're near unwinnable, or close to 30-70?


You have way more speed and a reflector. You can juggle the man with ease, and once he's above you there's not much he can do. If you notice him dair at some point use that to your knowledge and bait it out later on. It's a pretty punishable move. Pressure him with lasers when he isn't standing still (since his shield blocks them) and reflect several of the projectiles that he sends your way.
The closest to that is Luigi, it's probably like 60-40
 

EpicSonicLatios

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Luigi is definitely doable, especially considering that he can't kill us off a throw at 110 percent from the middle of the stage anymore. You can block his nairs after you Utilt him, and end up getting good damage anyway. He also struggles to approach, and shine can easily defend his fireballs. Also, use the fair-footstool combo offstage to kill luigi if he uses side B or down B and doesn't Cling to ledge, because he will have punishable endlag.
 

M@v

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Here's my 2 cents on fox's matchups:


You can move sheik to 45:55 and cloud to even if you want to.
 
D

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Here's my 2 cents on fox's matchups:


You can move sheik to 45:55 and cloud to even if you want to.
Can I ask what makes Kirby such a difficult MU in your option? As a Falcon main he was also a pain in the ass to play against but I can't see why it would be THAT bad for Fox?
 

M@v

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Watch Feel Tension vs SmashG0d from a couple weeks back at Xanadu. Best example I've seen recorded. I felt Tensions pain because I basically went through the same thing vs TekNo's kirby roughly a week after Kirby got all of his buffs. Fox has the same problems in the matchup Falcon has essentially; Fox has zero safe options vs a crouching Kirby being the biggest one. So if he gets the lead and plays patient and campy, Fox is basically screwed. The only games I've won vs patient kirbies is by almost running the clock and shooting an endless amount of lasers. Kirby can also combo fox very well, kill him early with the buffed upthrow, and dair beats all of his recovery options.

Now if the kirby isn't patient and decides to approach you even with the lead, the mu is much, much easier.
 
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EpicSonicLatios

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That list seems alright to me, the only thing I disagree with is corrin being a losing MU. I also don't think Kirby wins by that much, but I do think he wins, probably 60:40. Other than that it seems pretty accurate. Also fox vs fox is 100-0 because fox always wins :^]
 

colinies

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Watch Feel Tension vs SmashG0d from a couple weeks back at Xanadu. Best example I've seen recorded. I felt Tensions pain because I basically went through the same thing vs TekNo's kirby roughly a week after Kirby got all of his buffs. Fox has the same problems in the matchup Falcon has essentially; Fox has zero safe options vs a crouching Kirby being the biggest one. So if he gets the lead and plays patient and campy, Fox is basically screwed. The only games I've won vs patient kirbies is by almost running the clock and shooting an endless amount of lasers. Kirby can also combo fox very well, kill him early with the buffed upthrow, and dair beats all of his recovery options.

Now if the kirby isn't patient and decides to approach you even with the lead, the mu is much, much easier.
Its odd to me that you've had so much trouble vs. TekNo's Kirby, he doesnt use him anymore vs me. I do play really campy because you gotta understand thats all he wants is a grab or uptilt. Kirby has terrible range and is still pretty slow, so lasers are great vs him, plus he's light. Use uptilt and bair to outrange him and up air to hurt his chance of landing, he has terrible air mobility in this game.
 
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M@v

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Its odd to me that you've had so much trouble vs. TekNo's Kirby, he doesnt use him anymore vs me. I do play really campy because you gotta understand thats all he wants is a grab or uptilt. Kirby has terrible range and is still pretty slow, so lasers are great vs him, plus he's light. Use uptilt and bair to outrange him and up air to hurt his chance of landing, he has terrible air mobility in this game.
To be fair I only played it at one tournament. He only went to it after I 3-0d his sheik/rob in winners finals, then won game 1 in grands vs his sheik. And that's basically what I said about how to play it. You absolutely need to camp or you lose. Kirby getting the lead is a bad thing too. The games I won Fox vs Kirby almost went to time and I shot an infinite amount of lasers.
 
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EnhaloTricks

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He guys! A Ness main here, who is now co-maining Fox. Just recently took a tournament at my university going 95% Fox. He fits the playstyle I like with a good mix between rushdown and bait/punish.

What I want to know is how is Fox's MU spread compared to Ness'? I can't think of too many MU's where I would specifically prefer Fox over Ness (maybe Villager, but idk). He loses to both Rosa and Sheik pretty hard, right? I already know I'll go Ness vs. ZSS cause I generally enjoy that MU, as well as against heavies. Maybe most others Fox would be better, but, I don't know... that's why I'm here!

Thank you guys!
 

EpicSonicLatios

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People like to say the sheik MU is horrible, but it really isn't that bad. You kill much more effectively than she does, and you can live to high percents despite being a lightweight. Fox also has mobility that can keep up with sheik's, and he can combo her effectively too. Rosa is super lame to play against. She breaks out of combos and keeps you from approaching in the first place. You have to play super safe in that MU. From what I hear, ness is screwed against rosa, so using fox in that MU may not be such a bad idea.
 
D

Deleted member 269706

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Hey all, looking for some tips on Bayo. Teying to figure out a good way to approach, and also trying to figure out what can beat her side B. Any and all tips are appreciated.

When you're on the ledge, how do you deal with rob's gyro to up smash setup?
If on smashville you can try going under the stage (make sure to practice this before attempting it in tourney. Might work on a few other stages, mess around with it. Otherwise the best thing you can do is wait it out.
 

onlyaaron17

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What do you guys use to counter approach Corrin when corrin wants to use side b as you dash in? Ive considered using run up shield as a mixup to close the gap, but i want to at least have 2 more mixups.

I know challenging her in the air can be difficult, any ideas?
 

boneflesh

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im a new fox player, and i've been having trouble with cloud. cloud's neutral is just so good since it forces fox to approach or they get limit. it's generally hard to find openings. cloud can even camp on large stages like town and city and duck hunt. what can i do? only solution i've found is to generally counterpick small stages.
 
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