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General Sonic the Hedgehog Series Discussion: Sonic Lost World!

tnorrlotssb

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There was not a Sonic Series General Discussion thread that I could find, though it is not at all impossible that I overlooked it, if it does exist. My apologies if this thread is unnecessary.

There's a lot to discuss, but I'll just start off with SEGA's falling profits and the idea that the Sonic series needs to be completely overhauled.

I do not believe that the series actually needs to change. I think the problem is that it has changed. I'm not going to say that only the Classic games were good or anything. That's rediculous, though I will say that the HD Era of Sonic games is a bit of a letdown. The problem lies in the physics. The physics system is way too complicated. The best of the 3D Sonic games were on the Dreamcast Era. The controls were sharp for the most part and the game actually felt like a video game, not some physics simulation to understand the momentum of anthropomorphic animals. Momentum just doesn't feel right in the 3D platforming business, as your movements are less precise, and that can be an issue. The 2.5D platformers do need momentum, however, because precision is less important because you haven't the need to control depth. Momentum helps you move faster in a 2D environment, and as such, is a good thing. However, making a left turn very quickly after developing momentum in a 3D platformer simply makes for either a jerky game or one with little precision. A simpler physics engine would help in the 3D Sonic games. Reviewers would feel more in control when playing and give the game a higher score, and increase promotion.

To further improve the HD Era, cut out the mid-level change from 3D to 2.5D. While many see this as innovative, it actually makes the gameplay less consistent and awkward to change the thought process. If you want a 2.5D sidescroller, that's great. If you want a 3D platformer, that's great, too. The two should not transistion seemlessly, as the change in controls is well, awkward, even if you don't realize it.

Get rid of the crosshairs when using homing attack. These make the game feel less fluid and more digital, and are unnecessary. It doesn't really help the controlls any, and creates too much action on the screen, with can throw you off a bit when you're trying to go fast and make the jump to the other side of a gap.

Other than that, keep HD graphics from HD era, lose the glitches, and bring back those great storylines from the Dreamcast Era and Sonic could be revived, gameplay wise.

Now to increase sales, don't make the same game on both handheld and console. This creates continuity issues and the one of them generally loses it's value, usually the handheld. Sonic Generations almost completely lacked story on the 3DS, and I feel like I missed a lot of cutscenes that my friend enjoyed on his PS3, and I'm sure that only the console Generations is true canon, similar to the DS Sonic Colors being true canon, as Silver and Blaze meet for the first canonical time, something that one buying Sonic Colors on the Wii would miss out on. Not only does making different games on handheld and console increase quality, but it increases sales. If one owns both a Wii and a DS, is that person going to buy two copies of Sonic Colors? Probably not. Would that person have bought a Wii Sonic Colors and another DS title, such as another Sonic Rush Title? More likely. By creating two of the same game with great differences, SEGA wastes time and resources that could potentially be spent on a completely different title that would sell to those who own both console and handheld and those that only have handheld. This also puts out at least the two games a year, which could be released 6 months apart, keeping Sonic fans more interested and less likely to spend their money on other franchises that are more productive quantitatively.

And so now, by completing these tasks, the Sonic franchise could back in the game, or at least it would have it's red-sneakered foot in the door. I apologize for writing so friggen much, but I do aspire to design video games, and critique length is one of my habits that sometimes be troublesome.

Hopefully this kicks off the thread in a positive direction. I hope to see some intelligent discussions take place.

:phone:

:phone:
 

finalark

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We generally use the Generations thread as general Sonic discussion but a devoted threat couldn't hurt.

How about we start on this:

What's everyone's thoughts on the rumored Sonic reboot in 2014?
 

John2k4

The End of an Era
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The last fun Sonic game I played was Sonic Heroes way back in the day. :b:

Never bought it, but played the heck out of the free demo.


That music's still stuck in my head..
 

Fuelbi

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The problem with your statement is that you'd be implying I play Sonic for the story. The Genesis games didn't even have that much of a story all it was was Robotnik wreaking havoc and Somic having to stop him. Take all the extra coating off the story and that's basically pretty much how you could sum up the story. In the 3D games, I never felt the story was the main focus and most of the time I never played the games just because of the story (unless you count SA2 and to an extent Shadow if that counts) as instead I played the games because the gameplay was fun. It's also the reason why I bought Sonic Colors DS and Sonic Generations 3DS. I already knew the stories would be the same more or less but I still bought them because I enjoy a good Sonic game. I couldn't have given much of a damn when I was playing through Tropical Resort on Sonic Colors DS because I was still having fun while playing those levels, which I believe is what the devs aim more for when they make these games. I didn't give much of a damn that it was basically the same story on SG3DS because I was playing through fun levels, and not to mention some of those levels were levels I wished were in the console version to begin with like Mushroom Hill Zone.

As for the homing attack crosshair, it shouldn't be taken out. If anything it's more helpful than it isn't because it helps me determine at what distance I'm good to use the attack. If anything I wish SA2 also had a crosshair for the attack given I've died in that game because of my terrible judgement of distance.


And I believe of they keep up the same formula, they shouldn't take out the 2.5D sections of the game. At no point in the game did I ever realize it was awkward and SEGA still does a good job at transitioning between dimensions giving me ample time to get used to it. If the 2.5D wasn't in the game, it'd be a lot more monotonous and boring so giving me a change of pace is a good thing


As for getting Sonic back as a serious thing, I always thought Sonic was serious again after Sonic Colors. Like really, if he wasn't able to turn in a profit anymore, SEGA would've either created a brand new IP or shut down years ago. I mean even some of the worse HD games sold well enough that SEGA could turn some can in. Even though Sonic 06 was a deplorable game, it still turned in money whether or not people liked it. Really all Sonic is is SEGA's cash cow who they'd be struggling even more with without


On a different note, Sonic 4 Episode 2 hype. I'm excited as hell to play as Metal Sonic in Episode 1 given if he has more speed than Sonic. I just hope that in Sonic 4 Ep 2 we have a race against Metal Sonic like in Sonic CD at the same difficulty more or less. I'd be curious as to how a second race would be designed
:phone:
 

tnorrlotssb

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I really hope this Sonic reboot rumor stays a rumor. There are too many fans that enjoy the Sonic video game canon that has grown to be since 1991. Though I will say that there are two plot wholes (one in the two Blaze origins and one in the two Eggman Nega origins), though they could both be fixed simultaneously in about two games, one to call the issue to attention, and another to solve the issue, sort of what they did when they killed off Shadow and then due to fan reaction wanted to bring him back in Sonic Heroes, then made Shadow the Hedgehog to top it off and explain that THE Shadow the Hedgehog was back.

:phone:
 

BSP

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I'll give my opinions when I'm not on a phone, but for now, I'll say that IMO the thing that's wrong with sonic games as of late is that they use too many gimmicks. Sega should just stick to running and jumping.

:phone:
 

Wizzrobe

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I'm glad this thread was finally made. As for the 2014 rumored reboot, I think it would be fine if they didn't do that because recent sonic games have been amazing and are consistently being great.
 

BSP

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Generations was awesome because they took out the unnecessary lower ups and transformations (aka gimmicks) and focused on running and jumping

If the next sonic game was generations style with just different levels, I would still get it.

:phone:
 

Wizzrobe

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Generations was awesome because they took out the unnecessary lower ups and transformations (aka gimmicks) and focused on running and jumping

If the next sonic game was generations style with just different levels, I would still get it.

:phone:
Yea, Generations was awesome and probably my favorite Sonic game ever. I think Sega has finally figured out what they have been doing wrong and are now going to have great Sonic games from now on.
 

PsychoIncarnate

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They need to get rid of that hedgehog and make a game with Metal Sonic and Knuckles.

Yes. That's my dream.

And I mean badass 1990's knuckles
 

Grandeza

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My best memories of Sonic are Sonic Adventure 2: Battle in the Chao Garden. Thinking back to it just makes me think how awesome it would be if you could play Chao Karate and Chao Racing over xbox live. God, if they ever make SA3 I hope they implement something like that.
 

finalark

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Okay, I have time to read your wall of text and argue with you so I think I'll do that now.

I do not believe that the series actually needs to change. I think the problem is that it has changed. I'm not going to say that only the Classic games were good or anything. That's rediculous, though I will say that the HD Era of Sonic games is a bit of a letdown. The problem lies in the physics. The physics system is way too complicated. The best of the 3D Sonic games were on the Dreamcast Era. The controls were sharp for the most part and the game actually felt like a video game, not some physics simulation to understand the momentum of anthropomorphic animals.
Debatable. A friend and I replayed both SA1 and 2 and tell you the truth SA1 is pretty, well, bad. Controls are loose and have tenancy to be almost oversensitive, the camera is the cause of 90% of your deaths, the game is buggy as hell, there's corner cutting out the *** and that's not even getting into the individual characters.

SA2, on the other hand, does have tight and solid controls but again also has a terrible camera that will be the cause of most of your deaths. I'd also like to point out that there felt like there was a fluidity loss in the shooting levels. Eggman and Tails feel almost stiff and ridged compared to Gamma while Knuckes and Rouges stages have the issue of honestly just been way to big and time consuming.

Momentum just doesn't feel right in the 3D platforming business, as your movements are less precise, and that can be an issue. The 2.5D platformers do need momentum, however, because precision is less important because you haven't the need to control depth. Momentum helps you move faster in a 2D environment, and as such, is a good thing. However, making a left turn very quickly after developing momentum in a 3D platformer simply makes for either a jerky game or one with little precision. A simpler physics engine would help in the 3D Sonic games. Reviewers would feel more in control when playing and give the game a higher score, and increase promotion.
In theory. I can't really think of any 3D Sonic games where turning at high speeds was problem except for Heroes when my friend and I tried to replay it.

To further improve the HD Era, cut out the mid-level change from 3D to 2.5D. While many see this as innovative, it actually makes the gameplay less consistent and awkward to change the thought process. If you want a 2.5D sidescroller, that's great. If you want a 3D platformer, that's great, too. The two should not transistion seemlessly, as the change in controls is well, awkward, even if you don't realize it.
Oh do I disagree. Imagine an entire Sonic game where you just BOOST TO GET THROUGH and then sidestep obstacles without the solid 2D platforming to add verity. I think the new games do it perfectly and strike a pretty good balance. The transition isn't awkward at all either, the games give you plenty of time to see when its coming and get ready to change controls.

Get rid of the crosshairs when using homing attack. These make the game feel less fluid and more digital, and are unnecessary. It doesn't really help the controlls any, and creates too much action on the screen, with can throw you off a bit when you're trying to go fast and make the jump to the other side of a gap.
Honestly with or without the crossairs is fine. In the new games I actually think its useful because it alerts you to when you need to be using homing attack while running at high speeds.

Other than that, keep HD graphics from HD era, lose the glitches, and bring back those great storylines from the Dreamcast Era and Sonic could be revived, gameplay wise.


Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Great storylines from the DC era? Sounds like someone have some early 2000s nostalgia going on here. Those stories were a joke that only served as a reason for you to smash robots. The only good parts of those stories was Gamma's in SA1. And I won't even say that Shadow's story was good, it was just dark.

And IDK what you mean about the graphics, they look fine and most of the new Sonic games (meaning Colors and Generations) are pretty glitch free. Sonic's game play is just fine.

This creates continuity issues and the one of them generally loses it's value, usually the handheld. Sonic Generations almost completely lacked story on the 3DS, and I feel like I missed a lot of cutscenes that my friend enjoyed on his PS3, and I'm sure that only the console Generations is true canon, similar to the DS Sonic Colors being true canon, as Silver and Blaze meet for the first canonical time, something that one buying Sonic Colors on the Wii would miss out on. Not only does making different games on handheld and console increase quality, but it increases sales. If one owns both a Wii and a DS, is that person going to buy two copies of Sonic Colors? Probably not. Would that person have bought a Wii Sonic Colors and another DS title, such as another Sonic Rush Title? More likely. By creating two of the same game with great differences, SEGA wastes time and resources that could potentially be spent on a completely different title that would sell to those who own both console and handheld and those that only have handheld. This also puts out at least the two games a year, which could be released 6 months apart, keeping Sonic fans more interested and less likely to spend their money on other franchises that are more productive quantitatively.
You want an epic sprawling story that makes sense? Go read a book. And I'm pretty sure its a no-brainier that the handheld version of a game would feel watered down from the console version.

And so now, by completing these tasks, the Sonic franchise could back in the game, or at least it would have it's red-sneakered foot in the door. I apologize for writing so friggen much, but I do aspire to design video games, and critique length is one of my habits that sometimes be troublesome.
I feel a lot of Dreamcast nostalgia in your wall of text, tell you the truth. Right now I think Sonic is just fine. Colors is good, Generations is good, hell, even SEGA All Stars Racing is good. Right now the quality of SEGA's games (not just their Sonic games, their games as a whole) have been easily as strong as they were back in the DC era. The problem is that no matter what they won't ever be able to fully shake the stigma of being "that company that failed at consoles then ****ed up their mascot."
 

Wizzrobe

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I would love the Chao Garden back :(

I hope Sonic 4: Episode 2 has act transitions like in Sonic 3 and Knuckles
I agree, Chao Garden should come back already. It has been requested so much by Sonic fans and it is still not in a recent Sonic game. I don't understand why they don't want to do it.
I know there was a Chao Garden in Sonic Chronicles but it just wasn't the same.
 

BSP

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The last fun Sonic game I played was Sonic Heroes way back in the day. :b:

Never bought it, but played the heck out of the free demo.


That music's still stuck in my head..
You should try out Generations. It's pretty awesome.

The problem with your statement is that you'd be implying I play Sonic for the story. The Genesis games didn't even have that much of a story all it was was Robotnik wreaking havoc and Somic having to stop him. Take all the extra coating off the story and that's basically pretty much how you could sum up the story. In the 3D games, I never felt the story was the main focus and most of the time I never played the games just because of the story (unless you count SA2 and to an extent Shadow if that counts) as instead I played the games because the gameplay was fun. It's also the reason why I bought Sonic Colors DS and Sonic Generations 3DS. I already knew the stories would be the same more or less but I still bought them because I enjoy a good Sonic game. I couldn't have given much of a damn when I was playing through Tropical Resort on Sonic Colors DS because I was still having fun while playing those levels, which I believe is what the devs aim more for when they make these games. I didn't give much of a damn that it was basically the same story on SG3DS because I was playing through fun levels, and not to mention some of those levels were levels I wished were in the console version to begin with like Mushroom Hill Zone.
Totally agree with this. When Sonic games focus more on story than actual gameplay, we end up with games like Sonic 06.

Sonic games don't really need some epic storyline with them. I hope Sega is done with trying to make them because we all care about the gameplay much more.


Sonic games don't need much of a story

What it needs now is more KNUCKLES
Yes. Now that Sega is starting to get back on their feet, I think putting Tails and Knuckles back into games would be a good idea.

Tails and Knuckles add gimmicks, but it still feels like you're playing a sonic game. Once they added more characters that these 2, that's when the games started becoming too gimmicky imo. It went from them to 6 characters, then shooting + treasure hunting, then team mechanics, etc.

I agree, Chao Garden should come back already. It has been requested so much by Sonic fans and it is still not in a recent Sonic game. I don't understand why they don't want to do it.
I know there was a Chao Garden in Sonic Chronicles but it just wasn't the same.
A return of the Chao Garden would be nice.

TBH, I wouldn't mind a Sonic Adventure 4 where you play as Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles like SA2 style (however, it would be better if all of their levels were focused on getting to the goal and not just Sonic's).
 

Adict

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All these new games being discussed and here i am with my genesis still hooked up lol..

but nah i have played a few of the newer ones and didnt care for them much. i think the 'newest' one i still enjoy playing is Adventure 2 battle, which cant even really be considered any form of new.

i have no problem with the fact of adding some new characters as time progresses, but i do think they added too many characters at once. add the fact that they took away characters to make room for the new ones, that spells disaster. you cant remove originals and expect long time fans to be happy about it.
 

finalark

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but nah i have played a few of the newer ones and didnt care for them much. i think the 'newest' one i still enjoy playing is Adventure 2 battle, which cant even really be considered any form of new.
Colors, bro. Its awesome.

i have no problem with the fact of adding some new characters as time progresses, but i do think they added too many characters at once. add the fact that they took away characters to make room for the new ones, that spells disaster. you cant remove originals and expect long time fans to be happy about it.
I don't really see SEGA ever removing the old characters (although Knuckles was notably absent in Colors and in Unleashed but he showed up in Generations so its good). Usually when characters disappear they're minor characters from obscure spin offs like half of the cast of Sonic the Fighters. On another note, I'd say that if you go back and look at the old Sonic games SEGA still liked adding characters its just that there isn't really the nostalgia there to support them anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the new characters are pretty lackluster by the same applies for a lot of the characters from the 90s games. But on the flipside I actually like a lot of the new characters too.
 

Fuelbi

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I don't know why so many people complain that Generations and Colors suck because they don't have a chao garden. First off, who decides that a game is good based off of ONE mini game, which I could never get too into tbh. Second off, those games aren't even Adventure series games I can't imagine the way that these games play being good for a chao garden. I'll admit though boosting into a baby chao and having it fly 50 feet into the air would be hilarious

And IMO if they make Sonic games in the style of recent games in the future, they need to add Knuckles and Tails. Given how ****ing fast Knuckles is in SA2 and how competent speedwise he is in S3$K, I could imagine him kinda working out in this type of game except I dunno where his flying and climbing could come in while tails could literally be Sonic except with slightly lower speed and the ability to fly I mean I'd imagine people would like taking the easy mode character when they die a lot I imagine


Also, these games need more Vector just sayain
:phone:
 

Master Xanthan

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I don't know why so many people complain that Generations and Colors suck because they don't have a chao garden. First off, who decides that a game is good based off of ONE mini game, which I could never get too into tbh. Second off, those games aren't even Adventure series games I can't imagine the way that these games play being good for a chao garden. I'll admit though boosting into a baby chao and having it fly 50 feet into the air would be hilarious

And IMO if they make Sonic games in the style of recent games in the future, they need to add Knuckles and Tails. Given how ****ing fast Knuckles is in SA2 and how competent speedwise he is in S3$K, I could imagine him kinda working out in this type of game except I dunno where his flying and climbing could come in while tails could literally be Sonic except with slightly lower speed and the ability to fly I mean I'd imagine people would like taking the easy mode character when they die a lot I imagine


Also, these games need more Vector just sayain
:phone:
I didn't hear anyone say the games sucked because there was no chao garden. They said they wanted the chao garden, but never said anything about the games being bad due to the lack of it.
 

Wizzrobe

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Yea, so many fans want Chao Garden back so bad. I thought it was great and all but I don't see why people want it back so badly.
 

finalark

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I don't know why so many people complain that Generations and Colors suck because they don't have a chao garden. First off, who decides that a game is good based off of ONE mini game, which I could never get too into tbh. Second off, those games aren't even Adventure series games I can't imagine the way that these games play being good for a chao garden. I'll admit though boosting into a baby chao and having it fly 50 feet into the air would be hilarious
As Xanthan said, people don't really say that Colors and Generations is bad due to a lack of Chao Gardens, its just that its a requested feature.

I could never get into them. Growing up with two dogs taught me that you get much more out of real pets than you do virtual ones. I do understand the appeal, however.

And IMO if they make Sonic games in the style of recent games in the future, they need to add Knuckles and Tails. Given how ****ing fast Knuckles is in SA2 and how competent speedwise he is in S3$K, I could imagine him kinda working out in this type of game except I dunno where his flying and climbing could come in while tails could literally be Sonic except with slightly lower speed and the ability to fly I mean I'd imagine people would like taking the easy mode character when they die a lot I imagine
Eh... if they ever allow for multiple playable characters again I'd rather it was like the Sonic Adventure games where everyone has their own playstyle. Like Sonic can do what he's doing now, Knuckles' levels could be a beat 'em up akin to Bayonetta or God of War. But with fists. As for Tails either give him a mech again but with better controls or maybe give him platforming levels that are much slower and take advantage of his flying abilities.

Also, these games need more Vector just sayain
:phone:
He's still waiting for someone to find the computer room.
 

Mr. Johan

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>Complaints about Sonic games taking data that could be used for level amount and variation to bring the Sonic feel, and instead using it toward gimmicky and/or alternate playstyles.

>Requests Chao Garden to be brought back every time a game is announced.
 

LLDL

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This is how I feel about the main games in the series. Three groups, ordered best to wort from top to bottom within each group. Yeah, I've played through every game in the series, and the ones that I left out are really side games.

GROUP 1
S2
SONIC CD
S3&K
S1
ADVENTURE 2
SXTREME
ADVENTURE
SADVANCE2
SADVANCE
SADVACNE3

NOT ANYWHERE AS GOOD AS GROUP 1, BUT DECENT

GENERATIONS
UNLEASHED
COLORS
SONICRUSH

TRASH
SONIC THE HEDGEHOG 4
SONIC HEROES
SONICRIVALS
SONIC06
SECRETRINGS
BLACKKNIGHT
SHADOWTHEHEDGEHOG
 

finalark

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>Complaints about Sonic games taking data that could be used for level amount and variation to bring the Sonic feel, and instead using it toward gimmicky and/or alternate playstyles.

>Requests Chao Garden to be brought back every time a game is announced.
Remember, if its a gimmicky/alternative play style that's from the Genesis/Dreamcast era its a-okay!

I hate nostalgic dumb people. Mainly the people who act like SA1 is the most amazing game in the world while they then proceed to trash the newer games for the same reasons they praise SA1.
 

Metal Overlord

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Chao Garden was the ****. Of course people would want it back. And the Adventure games and the newer games are all great games

None of them are better than Sonic 3 and Knuckles, though :p
 

Fuelbi

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Remember, if its a gimmicky/alternative play style that's from the Genesis/Dreamcast era its a-okay!

I hate nostalgic dumb people. Mainly the people who act like SA1 is the most amazing game in the world while they then proceed to trash the newer games for the same reasons they praise SA1.
SA1 is an amazing game in the first place?


Besides Sonic, Tails, and Gamma, the game was a piece of crap and if it wasn't that I just really wanted to finish it and defeat Chaos, I wouldn't have bothered. Amy is a hypocritical *****, Big is the most annoying moron ever, and Knuckles' treasure hunting game only becomes good in SA2 when they finally stepped that **** up.
:phone:
 

relaxedexcorcist

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SA1 had better treasure hunting than SA2. Having all emerald radars active is better than only one imo. SA1 is one of my favorite Sonic games because it has a lot of my favorite stages, though some of the playstyles are kind of...bleh. Sonic, Tails, and Gamma rock. Amy and Knuckles and tolerable, and Big is just...he...he's Big >.>

I do wish they would bring adventure fields back though, but I dunno if they can make them as fun around to mess around in as SA1's judging by what they did with Unleashed's hub worlds, which switched between feeling super limited because they nerf Sonic in one kind of field but then have in control normally in the other type and he flies around everywhere with the touch of a button which is kind of annoying sometimes.
 

Fuelbi

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Personally I preferred the SA2 treasure hunting than SA's. I felt like all the levels were more fun and original than the first and they felt harder too

Except for Mad Space and Egg Quarters. **** those levels Mad Space took me half an hour in total to beat because of its giant enormous size and that robot that goes around the Egg Quarters is a giant pain in the *** when he happens to pass by a room I'm trying to get an emerald in and zaps me just when I'm about to get it
:phone:
 

Metal Overlord

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The only treasure hunting stages I think I legitimately enjoyed in SA2 was Security Hall and Meteor Herd (only in the multiplayer mode, though)

The rest all have great music, but not really all that fun to go back to
 

Mr. Johan

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Sonicboom93
Amy's gameplay in SA1 reminded me of the gameplay from Sonic 1; creative platforming sections, but with only a small emphasis on speed (Sonic 1 wasn't just heralded for having a "fast" character, but also for complementing that characteristic with physics-based level design). Amy could only pick up speed either from starting to run or my jumping first, like in Sonic 1, and her Hammer Jump's trajectory and velocity was dependent on her speed, like Sonic 1.

The Amy levels were basically a 3D re-imagining of the gameplay of Sonic 1 only. It did a good job on that front, imo.
 

finalark

SNORLAX
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
7,829
Location
Tucson, Arizona
I kinda liked treasure hunting in SA1 a little more because all of the radars were active at once but I hated how (just like the rest of the game) the levels were just segments of Sonic's level with areas cut off, making them unfun to explore.

SA2 was a lot better in that sense.

Also, SA1 has corner cutting out the ***.
 
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