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Ganondorf Changes (E3)

Boartobewild

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 15, 2018
Messages
168
Location
Austria


That pretty much wraps everything on the subject... i guess.

As for asking Nairo you could do it on twitter (or anybody with
I have to emphasize just how fitting/ironic your choice with dat gif was in retrospect, given just how futile my valiant effort was in the end, it's pretty hilarious and sad at the same time.

Bc when Androobie Androobie delivered the harsh truth, I couldn't help but, react like this---->
You should know which one

Edit; Can somebody explain to me why it's such an ordeal or impossibility for the post/ writing-tool manager to process and properly display just a simple Gif?!?!
 
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Joined
Aug 3, 2018
Messages
1,534
I have to emphasize just how fitting/ironic your choice with dat gif was in retrospect, given just how futile my valiant effort was in the end, it's pretty hilarious and sad at the same time.

Bc when Androobie Androobie delivered the harsh truth, I couldn't help but, react like this---->
You should know which one

Edit; Can somebody explain to me why it's such an ordeal or impossibility for the post/ writing-tool manager to process and properly display just a simple Gif?!?!
Lol!

I found everythning i needed here; https://smashboards.com/help/bb-codes/

To put it simply i just copy the image's link and paste it in 'Insert image' in the tool. Maybe some format are not supported.
 

Boartobewild

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
168
Location
Austria
Lol!

I found everythning i needed here; https://smashboards.com/help/bb-codes/

To put it simply i just copy the image's link and paste it in 'Insert image' in the tool. Maybe some format are not supported.
If only it were so simple......:dizzy:
Trust me I tried everything from the site's url(that's what my phone refers/understands under link in this case), the image url itself, opening it in another tab and using that new specific link (which seems to work best for me oddly enough)and even downloading and than uploading/drawing it into the drop box. I also tried multiple sources besides giphy which are also supported, but nothing wanted to work, which is perplexing, as some pics, gifs worked without a hitch the first time, so I just gave up in frustration and linked it instead.

I know I'm that I'm also not the only one, who faced these sort of issues, just look/ask @Mewtwo, he had the same problem in the Ganon design poll/thread.
 
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1,534


Thats not true! That's impossible!!! :p

I just right clicked on the gif and copied the image URL, pasted it and voilà! Maybe it's an issue with phones? I use a cpu... it's way off my knowledge, admin are there for these kind of problems, you should ask them (then i won't be the only one posting goofy star wars gifs ;) )
 
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pholtos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
404
This is something I've just sorta forgotten interaction wise but if two ganondorfs side-b into each other at varying timing, do they just bounce off each other? I've recently thought about this and it's really bothering me for some reason.
 

Fell God

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Ylisse
Switch FC
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This is something I've just sorta forgotten interaction wise but if two ganondorfs side-b into each other at varying timing, do they just bounce off each other? I've recently thought about this and it's really bothering me for some reason.
Well obviously they-...you know, it's just-...they uh-...huh...
 
Joined
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Messages
1,534
This is something I've just sorta forgotten interaction wise but if two ganondorfs side-b into each other at varying timing, do they just bounce off each other? I've recently thought about this and it's really bothering me for some reason.
Well obviously they-...you know, it's just-...they uh-...huh...
The last one the do it wins the clash, it happened to me a few times in the 'trainning lobby' in online play. I'm 92% sure.
 

Fell God

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Ylisse
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The last one the do it wins the clash, it happened to me a few times in the 'trainning lobby' in online play. I'm 92% sure.
In 4, sure, but in Ultimate, a new mechanic causes colliding grabs to simply bounce off of each other and deal minor damage to both participants. Wonder if that will change for command grabs or if Ganondorf's will remain as is.
 
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In 4, sure, but in Ultimate, a new mechanic causes colliding grabs to simply bounce off of each other and deal minor damage to both participants. Wonder if that will change for command grabs or if Ganondorf's will remain as is.
Omg. In that case.... i really don't know. Does it really count as a grab? And if 2 Diddy Kong side b each other? What If one Diddy Kong and one Dorf side B each other?

I guess we'll need more video footage to know for sure. I'm not sure there's footage of Ganondorf vs Ganondorf yet...
 
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Fell God

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Omg. In that case.... i really don't know. Does it really count as a grab? And if 2 Diddy Kong side b each other? What If one Diddy Kong and one Dorf side B each other?

I guess we'll need more video footage to know for sure. I'm not sure there's footage of Ganondorf vs Ganondorf yet...
As popular as he is in the demo, he's still not had many mirror matches, though that seems to go for everyone. Oh well, only...103...more days...
 

pholtos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
404
The last one the do it wins the clash, it happened to me a few times in the 'trainning lobby' in online play. I'm 92% sure.
In 4, sure, but in Ultimate, a new mechanic causes colliding grabs to simply bounce off of each other and deal minor damage to both participants. Wonder if that will change for command grabs or if Ganondorf's will remain as is.
Ah thanks you two, this gives me a good idea. Although, had no idea they made changes to grabs for Ult.
 

Fell God

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Ah thanks you two, this gives me a good idea. Although, had no idea they made changes to grabs for Ult.
Port priority determined who got the successful grab in the last game, essentially they're getting rid of the last vestiges of port priority, which has had a decreasing role with each successive entry in the series.
 

adom4

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Here are all of the conifrmed changes i know of, not gonna post hitbox changes because there isn't any concrete data on it yet:

Ganon changes:

+ Ganon's jumpsquat is now 3 frames (7 in smash 4)
+ Spotdodge FAF is now 24 (down from 29)
+ Forward roll FAF is now 33 (down from 34)
- Backward roll FAF is now 38 (up from 34)

Jab:
+ Jab has no sourspots anymore, all of the hitboxes do 10% instead of 10/8/6

F-Tilt:
* No known changes

D-Tilt:
* No known changes

U-Tilt:
+ Startup buffed (Frame 81>60)
+ FAF buffed (Frame 115>96)

F-smash:
* New move, similiar to Ike's F-smash, 28 frame startup (smash 4 F-smash is frame 21), FAF is 70 (smash 4 F-smash FAF is 60)

U-smash:
* New move, similiar to Ike's U-smash, 19 frame startup (smash 4 U-smash is frame 21), FAF is 62 (smash 4 U-smash is 42)

D-smash:
* new move, similiar to Cloud's D-smash, 15 frame startup (smash as smash 4), FAF is 60 (smash 4 D-smash is 64)

Dash attack:
* No known changes

Nair:
+ Landing lag is now 10 (17 in smash 4)

Fair:
+ Landing lag is now 13 (21 in smash 4)

Bair:
+ Landing lag is now 11 (19 in smash 4)

Uair:
- Startup is now 8 frames (up from 6 frames in smash 4)
+ Landing lag is now 11 (19 in smash 4)

Dair:
+ Landing lag is now 16 (26 in smash 4)
- Apparently is now techable on the ground (confirmed by Daddy Ganny, an australian Ganon who got to play the demo)

Warlock punch:
No known changes

Flame choke (grounded):
+ FAF is now 58 on a succesful grab (down from 62 in smash 4)
+ D-tilt now hits the entire cast on a missed tech, more F-tilt follow ups as well
- Flame choke no longer goes offstage if used to drop from the ledge, Ganon stays onstage until the move ends

Flame choke (aerial)
+ Ganon no longer suffers from RCO lag if hit out of aerial choke
- Aerial flame choke can be mashed out from now

Wizard's foot (grounded):
+ Sweetspot and sourspots have been switched, sweetspot is now on Ganon's foot instead of his body and vice versa
+ FAF is now 60 (Down from 77)
+ Wizkick travels faster
* Edge cancelling is still possible

Wizard's foot (aerial)
No known changes

Dark dive:
+ Does significantly more knockback
+ FAF on succesful grab is now 50 (down from 60)
+ Ganon no longer suffers RCO lag if he lands after a succesful grab/gets hit out of Dark dive

Grabs:
- Standing grab startup is now 8 (up from 7)
- Standing grab FAF is now 39 (up from 36)
- Dash grab FAF is now 48 (up from 45)
- Pivot grab startup is now 11 (up from 10)

Throws:
* F-throw is the same but with a new animation
* D-throw has no known changes
* B-throw has no known changes
+ U-throw's first hit now does 10% for a total of 13% (Up from 7% in smash 4 for a total of 10%)
 
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Garo

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From what I've seen and read, Dark Dive was buffed in exactly the ways I had hoped (more knockback, lower angle, less endlag) which is pretty amazing.

One thing I won't be missing is the old D-Smash. I swear that I got the damned sourspot at least half the time I managed to land the move.

I have read that Ganodorf's grab range is improved. Would love that to be true, since one of my most hated things was that I could not punish even some low range characters with a grab out of shield.
 

Boartobewild

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
168
Location
Austria
Here are all of the conifrmed changes i know of, not gonna post hitbox changes because there isn't any concrete data on it yet:

Ganon changes:

+ Ganon's jumpsquat is now 3 frames (7 in smash 4)
+ Spotdodge FAF is now 24 (down from 29)
+ Forward roll FAF is now 33 (down from 34)
- Backward roll FAF is now 38 (up from 34)

Jab:
+ Jab has no sourspots anymore, all of the hitboxes do 10% instead of 10/8/6

F-Tilt:
* No known changes

D-Tilt:
* No known changes

U-Tilt:
+ Startup buffed (Frame 81>60)
+ FAF buffed (Frame 115>96)

F-smash:
* New move, similiar to Ike's F-smash, 28 frame startup (smash 4 F-smash is frame 21), FAF is 70 (smash 4 F-smash FAF is 60)

U-smash:
* New move, similiar to Ike's U-smash, 19 frame startup (smash 4 U-smash is frame 21), FAF is 62 (smash 4 U-smash is 42)

D-smash:
* new move, similiar to Cloud's D-smash, 15 frame startup (smash as smash 4), FAF is 60 (smash 4 D-smash is 64)

Dash attack:
* No known changes

Nair:
+ Landing lag is now 10 (17 in smash 4)

Fair:
+ Landing lag is now 13 (21 in smash 4)

Bair:
+ Landing lag is now 11 (19 in smash 4)

Uair:
- Startup is now 8 frames (up from 6 frames in smash 4)
+ Landing lag is now 11 (19 in smash 4)

Dair:
+ Landing lag is now 16 (26 in smash 4)
- Apparently is now techable on the ground (confirmed by Daddy Ganny, an australian Ganon who got to play the demo)

Warlock punch:
No known changes

Flame choke (grounded):
+ FAF is now 58 on a succesful grab (down from 62 in smash 4)
+ D-tilt now hits the entire cast on a missed tech, more F-tilt follow ups as well
- Flame choke no longer goes offstage if used to drop from the ledge, Ganon stays onstage until the move ends

Flame choke (aerial)
+ Ganon no longer suffers from RCO lag if hit out of aerial choke
- Aerial flame choke can be mashed out from now

Wizard's foot (grounded):
+ Sweetspot and sourspots have been switched, sweetspot is now on Ganon's foot instead of his body and vice versa
+ FAF is now 60 (Down from 77)
+ Wizkick travels faster
* Edge cancelling is still possible

Wizard's foot (aerial)
No known changes

Dark dive:
+ Does significantly more knockback
+ FAF on succesful grab is now 50 (down from 60)
+ Ganon no longer suffers RCO lag if he lands after a succesful grab/gets hit out of Dark dive

Grabs:
- Standing grab startup is now 8 (up from 7)
- Standing grab FAF is now 39 (up from 36)
- Dash grab FAF is now 48 (up from 45)
- Pivot grab startup is now 11 (up from 10)

Throws:
* F-throw is the same but with a new animation
* D-throw has no known changes
* B-throw has no known changes
+ U-throw's first hit now does 10% for a total of 13% (Up from 7% in smash 4 for a total of 10%)
Huh interesting, the Ssb wiki seemed to state that his grabs are also faster, which I didn't believe and you predictably deconfirmed.

What you didn't mention though and I like to know for certain, given that the sources the ssb wiki pulls from, don't seem as reliable as prev. thought are the following changes if you happen to know them.

Though first let me give you my take on some changes your sources failed to mention, but basically have confirmed for sure at this point.

.)F-tilt seems to be nerfed from it's base damage of 13 in Sm4sh to 12 for some reason, just use(divide by) the 1.2 no items/for glory & 1.05 fresh bonus modifier to properly calculate the true base damage which happens to be the same damage values for most moves like back in sm4sh.

.) Let me reassure you/take away your worries Garo Garo (who, or what is that name based on btw?), while all of his normal grab frame data has all been nerfed by one, moved up by one frame, his grab range has indeed received a massive meaningful buff, though to which other character it's comparable I honestly couldn't tell you, but looks to be around the same as Mario, Luigi and Sm4sh Marth's grab range, I guess? Which is far more usable than it was prior at the very least.

.) His pummel like most others, is weaker down to 1.6 from prev. Sm4sh value of 3, but at the same time much faster which should result in more damage overall, which we can take/regard as a buff overall.

So now on to my questions, points of contention/uncertainty.

1) Did his Jump hight for both normal and Db jump indeed get buffed? It looks that way, but I don't trust my eyes/impression and the ssb wiki on that account.

2) Is any part of his Dash animation or Runcycle faster than before? I've heard some conflicting opinions, and while some part of his ground speed and data seems to be changed for sure, I couldn't tell you for certain, what exactly that would be, but based on the overall boons most heavies seemed to receive as a whole and that ultimate is generally more geared towards a more agressive/fast paced game play experience now, I'd wager a guess and say that dash dancing or fox-trotting at the very least was improved, which works nicely in tandem with the new run cancel option, which I'm a huge fan of!

.) You mentionned his ground dodge options being buffed, but what about his airial variants? Also glad to hear that his dodge game will also be better around this time, his rolls were generally pretty good before, due to being cloned/copied from Captain Falcon, but that's a nice buff regardless. Btw, did most other chars receive better dodge frame data as well, or is Ganon one of the few lucky canidates to receive this sort of gift?

.) Did his Warlock punch really not receive any damage changes or buffs in regards to it's super armor?

That would be all, but I wanted to throw my own opinion in, regarding his Smash attacks being taken from Ike and Cloud. Well I did some further digging and if their respective versions didn't get buffed from Sm4sh, than Ganon's counterpart version/copies are looking to be far more promising than theirs interestingly enough!!!

Both F-smash and U-smash, which are taken from Ike, have both far better damage and frame data values than I expected to.
While Ganon's D-smash only seems to look about the same as Cloud's counterpart and has the same Damage and slightly improved FAF compared to Sm4sh, it's naturally slower than Cloud's respective d-smash, however it's disproportionally a lot stronger given the frame data and also seems to have/boast(?) even better hitbox properties, when it comes to both it's range and linking into the second hit, which is far more than Cloud can claim.
 

adom4

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Israel
NNID
adom15510
3DS FC
3179-6434-6692
Huh interesting, the Ssb wiki seemed to state that his grabs are also faster, which I didn't believe and you predictably deconfirmed.

What you didn't mention though and I like to know for certain, given that the sources the ssb wiki pulls from, don't seem as reliable as prev. thought are the following changes if you happen to know them.

Though first let me give you my take on some changes your sources failed to mention, but basically have confirmed for sure at this point.

.)F-tilt seems to be nerfed from it's base damage of 13 in Sm4sh to 12 for some reason, just use(divide by) the 1.2 no items/for glory & 1.05 fresh bonus modifier to properly calculate the true base damage which happens to be the same damage values for most moves like back in sm4sh.

.) Let me reassure you/take away your worries Garo Garo (who, or what is that name based on btw?), while all of his normal grab frame data has all been nerfed by one, moved up by one frame, his grab range has indeed received a massive meaningful buff, though to which other character it's comparable I honestly couldn't tell you, but looks to be around the same as Mario, Luigi and Sm4sh Marth's grab range, I guess? Which is far more usable than it was prior at the very least.

.) His pummel like most others, is weaker down to 1.6 from prev. Sm4sh value of 3, but at the same time much faster which should result in more damage overall, which we can take/regard as a buff overall.

So now on to my questions, points of contention/uncertainty.

1) Did his Jump hight for both normal and Db jump indeed get buffed? It looks that way, but I don't trust my eyes/impression and the ssb wiki on that account.

2) Is any part of his Dash animation or Runcycle faster than before? I've heard some conflicting opinions, and while some part of his ground speed and data seems to be changed for sure, I couldn't tell you for certain, what exactly that would be, but based on the overall boons most heavies seemed to receive as a whole and that ultimate is generally more geared towards a more agressive/fast paced game play experience now, I'd wager a guess and say that dash dancing or fox-trotting at the very least was improved, which works nicely in tandem with the new run cancel option, which I'm a huge fan of!

.) You mentionned his ground dodge options being buffed, but what about his airial variants? Also glad to hear that his dodge game will also be better around this time, his rolls were generally pretty good before, due to being cloned/copied from Captain Falcon, but that's a nice buff regardless. Btw, did most other chars receive better dodge frame data as well, or is Ganon one of the few lucky canidates to receive this sort of gift?

.) Did his Warlock punch really not receive any damage changes or buffs in regards to it's super armor?

That would be all, but I wanted to throw my own opinion in, regarding his Smash attacks being taken from Ike and Cloud. Well I did some further digging and if their respective versions didn't get buffed from Sm4sh, than Ganon's counterpart version/copies are looking to be far more promising than theirs interestingly enough!!!

Both F-smash and U-smash, which are taken from Ike, have both far better damage and frame data values than I expected to.
While Ganon's D-smash only seems to look about the same as Cloud's counterpart and has the same Damage and slightly improved FAF compared to Sm4sh, it's naturally slower than Cloud's respective d-smash, however it's disproportionally a lot stronger given the frame data and also seems to have/boast(?) even better hitbox properties, when it comes to both it's range and linking into the second hit, which is far more than Cloud can claim.
* idk what was changed about F-tilt, i saw some people say it got buffed damage so i didn't say anything.

* Spotdodge got buffed for everyone, roll got nerfed like everyone else except Bayo/Samus

* No clue if he's faster

* No clue if anything changed about warlock punch either

* F-smash imo looks pretty bad, really slow and overall not as useful as old F-smash

* U-smash however still looks really solid and has a lot of potential, it will force Ganon to play a bit differently but overall i think it could be a lot better than people think

* D-smash is a straight upgrade, just not having the thigh sourspot is godsend

* His grab got nerfed just like everyone else except the tether ones, however his grab got nerfed way less compared to other grabs.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
I looked around for you but I was unable to find any footage of it. Translation: That mash has got to be a pretty good one to not get caught on camera yet.
I've been hunting for footage of the escape since E3. I've seen many ganoncides succeed, but not one that was escaped. I'm not about to start calling people liars, I'm just worried that players are taking a tweet as gospel.
 

King9999

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
240
Location
Ontario, Canada
NNID
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3DS FC
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Switch FC
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I've been hunting for footage of the escape since E3. I've seen many ganoncides succeed, but not one that was escaped. I'm not about to start calling people liars, I'm just worried that players are taking a tweet as gospel.
I'll be heading to Canada Cup in October. If they have Ultimate there, I'll be sure to test Ganoncide.
 
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