Ganondorf Buffs?

[Birdygamer]

Recently, the new character to rag on now is Ganondorf because of his weaknesses and lack of results. But I have a question, if Ganondorf needs buffs, what of him needs buffs like hitboxes or lag or what so that Ganondorf can have a better chance in competitive Smash?

 

[Mr.Dale]

Well to be honest ganon is a gimmick he's one of those characters who *should* be bad

 

[Predatoria]

They need to make warlock punch hit harder. It needs to kill at 10%, not 20

 

[FatFry]

Funnily enough, I actually play a decent amount of ganon but I hate playing against him (online) with all my heart.

I don't think he needs buffs. He's a noob killer, he beats people who don't know how to deal with him. The best ganondorf players I've seen take advantage of his aerials and spikes, the ones you see in Quickplay just take advantage of the lag to KO you with a smash attack at 40%, and even then they're pretty abusable. I do think he could use a slightly better recovery just so he doesn't automatically lose a stock when he's knocked off stage.

 

[Wiley]

Give us back our old ganoncide. No mashing they die first. (He’d still be bad) give him a better kill throw... like basically every heavy. And maybe make his down b faster and kill earlier like falcons does in this min min patch. Even with allll that... He’d still be too slow and free vs a lot of top tiers. Pika just eats Ganon and nothing I said would change that 8/10

If you made his grab detection hitbox lower to the ground on his grab and his upb. Maybe that would help too for upB oos pressure

I always just wanted a Gordo like shadow ball like he had in OoT instead of warlock punch

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Spoiler: My Take

Attributes

Walk speed increased (0.767 → 0.93)

Dash speed increased (1.34 → 1.45)

Air additional acceleration increased (0.03 → 0.04)

Air speed increased (0.83 → 0.93)

Double Jump Height increased (26 → 30)

Ganondorf can now wall jump.

Air Dodge Start up decreased (frame 4 → 3)


Jab

Start-up reduced (hitboxes active 7-8 → 6-8)

Endlag reduced (FAF 26 → 25)


Forward Tilt

Sourspot’s values now match the sweetspot’s, improving the move’s KO ability.


Up Tilt

Damage increased (24% → 28%)

Now has a new sourspot hitbox on the leg drop before the explosion. (24% → 20%)


Down Tilt

Angles on thigh and foot swapped (60°/80° → 80°/60°)


Forward Smash

Now has the Darkness effect.

Longer active hitbox (frames 29-31 → 29-33)
Removing the blindspot.


Up Smash

Now has the Darkness effect.

Longer active hitbox (frames 20-25 → 20-27)
Removing the blindspot.


Down Smash

Back hit now has the Darkness effect.

Damage increased (5/15%, 20% total → 6.5/17.5%, 24% total)
Improving it’s KO ability.


Grabs

Standing Grab start up decreased (frame 8 → 7)

Standing Grab endlag decreased (FAF 38 → 34)

Dash Grab endlag decreased (FAF 46 → 40)

Pivot Grab start up decreased (frame 12 → 10)

Pivot Grab endlag decreased (FAF 41 → 37)

Pummel damage increased (1.6% → 2%)


Forward throw

Now has the Darkness effect.

Knockback increased (70 KBG → 90)


Back throw

Now has the Darkness effect.

Throw damage increased (5/5%, 10% total → 5/7%, 12% total)
Improving it’s KO ability.


Up throw

Now has the Darkness effect.

Knockback increased (105 KBG → 150)


Neutral Air

Now links reliably.


Forward Air

Sourspot’s values now match the sweetspot’s, improving the move’s KO ability.

Now has the Darkness effect.

Auto-cancel window improved, now auto-cancels on Full Hop. (45> → 39>)


Back Air

Sweetspot now has the Darkness effect.


Down Air

Auto-cancel window improved, now auto-cancels on Short Hop. (32> → 29>)


Neutral Special | Warlock Punch

All variants have super armor and are unblockable.


Side Special | Flame Choke

Aerial

Landing Lag decreased when landing with a grabbed opponent (frames 38 → 30)

Ganondorf dies second with a grabbed opponent like in Sm4sh.


Up Special | Dark Dive

Ending uppercut damage increased (7% → 10%)

Throw endlag reduced significantly (FAF 50 → 35)

Preventing Tech Checking.


Down Special | Wizard’s Foot

Aerial

Super armor added (frames 6-15)

Added shield damage (0 → +10)

 

[Minix0]

Everyone talks about his disadvantage, and although buffing his recovery and air speed would be nice, that's not all he needs.

His advantage state is horrid as well. For all the work it takes to get in, he just isn't rewarded enough to compensate the struggle. Here's what I would do to change that:

1) Give Ganondorf a kill throw

There is literally no reason to grab someone after 100%. Why shouldn't Ganondorf get rewarded for getting in and actually grabbing the opponent? Right now, all Ganon can do after getting in is get like, a two hit combo and return to neutral. At death percent, Ganon relies on random hits just to kill someone. That by nature is inconsistent. Why not give Ganondorf's power a purpose past 100%?

2) Make dtilt a combo starter, like Melee

His attacks launch too far away to do any substantial combos. What's the point of approaching if you can only convert it to something below 30%? The loss of his old usmash not only hurts his speed even more, but also removed combos for a big, strong attack, of which he has plenty of. Making dtilt a combo starter would help his god awful netral better, and would make approaching him a bit riskier.

3) Make side-b untechable

Side-b is such a pointless, bad move. It only combos IF your opponent doesn't tech. 90% of the time, its a waste of time. Bowser, Incineroar and Ridley all get great damage and win neutral just by landing it. For Ganon however, to make it useful, he must make a successful read or pray they don't tech. Making the move untechable, along with making dtilt a combo starter, gives Ganon a good combo string (side b, dtilt, nair, uair, etc idk) and an actual reason to approach outside of stray random hits.

4) Give Ganon a kill confirm

Probably wishful thinking, but a reliable way to actually kill would be nice. If flame choke is untechable, making dtilt kill would be nice. Or, maybe make dtilt>fair or up air true at a certain percent. You may say that sounds broken, but do remember that Ganondorf is still a slow punching bag that dies at 40% off stage.

 

[Wiley]

“Literally” no reason?

Grabs happen at higher percents still. It’s not like shield disappears as an option. And you can’t just be a spaz and hope something connects every time. There are mixups, and grab is one of them. And the gameplay would be different if the threat of death was there from a grab as well.... like every heavy. I’d take a kill confirm grab window as well ha.

Like you’re saying “why would bowser grab at high percent” if he has a command grab, and a plethora of killing moves as well. But he does. And he chucks people.

It also just doesn’t look right, Ganon is beefy. He should whip you out into the shadow realm. (A kill throw alone would NOT fix Ganon’s flaws at all, for the record.)

I agree that side b is a total waste of potential. I have gotten used to it since they first added it but I’ve never liked it and its consistency depends on the skill of your opponent more than anything.

I would like reworking more than certain buffs. Still a Falcon clone and Ganon is so much bigger than FZero.

 

[Minix0]

“Literally” no reason?

Grabs happen at higher percents still. It’s not like shield disappears as an option. And you can’t just be a spaz and hope something connects every time. There are mixups, and grab is one of them. And the gameplay would be different if the threat of death was there from a grab as well.... like every heavy. I’d take a kill confirm grab window as well ha.

Like you’re saying “why would bowser grab at high percent” if he has a command grab, and a plethora of killing moves as well. But he does. And he chucks people.

It also just doesn’t look right, Ganon is beefy. He should whip you out into the shadow realm. (A kill throw alone would NOT fix Ganon’s flaws at all, for the record.)

I say its useless to grab at late percents (for Ganondorf, anyway), because there are a plethora of other options that would be better. Yes, its a mixup, so it isn't totally useless, but for all Ganon has to do to get in, why not give him a kill throw? Also, just because its a mix up option doesn't mean its a good one. All he can do with grab past 70% is fthrow to maaaaybe an edgeguard, but with how good recoveries are that's a big maybe. Ganondorf in a nutshell is a "maybe" character. The man needs some consistency, and although you're right it certainly wouldn't fix his problems, it would definitely help imo.

Also, I'm confused where you're getting "Bowser has no reason to grab". I never said that? I was just saying his command grab is much more consistent and worth using.

I agree that side b is a total waste of potential. I have gotten used to it since they first added it but I’ve never liked it and its consistency depends on the skill of your opponent more than anything.

I would like reworking more than certain buffs. Still a Falcon clone and Ganon is so much bigger than FZero.

True, well said. Side b is such a useless move. What's the point of a command grab if you have to make a read just to get its full mileage?

And yeah, I definitely want a reworking 100%. Give him a teleporting recovery like Zelda (a reference to Zelda: OoT too). Make side b untechable AND add on his custom side b from Sm4sh where he can launch opponents so he has a use at later percents. Make his uptilt his old upsmash. Etc, etc, etc... problem is, they're not gonna rework him until the next game, if they even do. So the things I mentioned would certainly help.

 

[chikin]

I feel like Ganon's problem is his moveset as a whole. He is one of those characters intended to be bad, he is basically a character that feeds off the opponents mistakes which is why he does better against newer players and falls short against better players.

To be honest, his moveset doesn't really represent what he is supposed to be (atleast OOT), he isn't really a character that's all about brute strength and power, more like him using magic and not his fists or his giant sword (which he never uses by the way).

Hopefully in Smash 6 he won't be a Falcon clone and will have a moveset that represents him better.

 

[Wiley]

What would be a super cool fix would just implement Peach float.

I think he’d legitimately be viable with float.

 

[StrangeKitten]

He needs QoL changes to some of his hitboxes, for one. Nair often fails to link into itself, dash attack stops having a hitbox towards the end, Wizard's Foot clanks with too much stuff, bair is pretty tiny and could stand to be a little bigger. He also needs a kill throw because it's honestly bizarre to play a super heavy who doesn't have one. Flame Choke could stand to be much better. Untechable at all %s seems like overkill, but maybe it could start being untechable around 80, that way he'd have some kill setups with it. Improve the recovery by a bit, maybe even make it so aerial Flame Choke no longer puts him in freefall, and you'll have buffed him into being a functional character.

"But they can't buff him because he's so good casually!" So what? I don't think the changes I'm suggesting would even make him that much better in a casual setting. K Rool is even better casually, and has seen love from what, 2 or 3 patches now? It's baffling to me that already-good characters like Young Link and the Samuses have seen QoL and buffs, Incineroar has had his already-better-than-Ganon's recovery buffed and recently got another kill throw, and yet here Ganon sits, languishing as everyone around him gets buffed into being functional, and then receives more buffs on top of that a couple patches or so later. It's time Ganon finally got some love

 

[Minix0]

Flame Choke could stand to be much better. Untechable at all %s seems like overkill, but maybe it could start being untechable around 80, that way he'd have some kill setups with it.

I don't see how it would be overkill. Ganondorf is abysmally slow on air and on the ground, combo food, edgeguard bait, and a projectile magnet. It doesn't go far at all and is overall pretty laggy, so the chances of Ganondorf even getting close enough to use it is questionable. Making it techable removes the point of the move. Why bother using a command grab that only sometimes does anything for you? Ridley's allowed to win neutral, recover, deal massive damage, and kill with one move (side-b), but its still a laggy move and opponents can mash out. Bowser has a great out of shield option, kill move, and big damage dealer all in one move. Etc, etc, etc...basically, if you can tech it there's little point to using it. I can understand after a certain percent but even that would seem odd when characters like Captain Falcon are now allowed to have a combo/kill confirm tool from 0% to 200%. Ganondorf needs to have an actual way to deal damage and kill consistently, and that would certainly help.

He needs QoL changes to some of his hitboxes, for one.

This, hard agree. With perspective now, he seems gutted in some ways since Smash 4. Ftilt doesn't kill as reliably, nor does it have the beefy hitbox it used to. Bad move. Up smash is huge, but he lost an actual fast move just for another big dumb hitbox. Uptilt is much faster, but its damage is significantly worse, making it near pointless to use (not to imply it even had a use but...you know). Tipman got nerfed slightly, as you mentioned several hitboxes are smaller, idk I'm gonna say he lowkey got nerfed overall. He received little to no benefit since 4.

 

[Don_John]

Recently, the new character to rag on now is Ganondorf because of his weaknesses and lack of results. But I have a question, if Ganondorf needs buffs, what of him needs buffs like hitboxes or lag or what so that Ganondorf can have a better chance in competitive Smash?

Honestly. I think Ganon needs major lag buffs on every aerial, range buffs for grab and power buffs for back throw in ultimate, while waiting for a "smash 6 ganon rework" which j already thought about, that would change all specials despite maybe side-b. Significantly buffs aerials, giving him a float, and changing other attacks and all throw despite d-throw

Oh, also for the rework buff walking and air speed and jump height

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

He needs QoL changes to some of his hitboxes, for one. Nair often fails to link into itself, dash attack stops having a hitbox towards the end, Wizard's Foot clanks with too much stuff, bair is pretty tiny and could stand to be a little bigger. He also needs a kill throw because it's honestly bizarre to play a super heavy who doesn't have one. Flame Choke could stand to be much better. Untechable at all %s seems like overkill, but maybe it could start being untechable around 80, that way he'd have some kill setups with it. Improve the recovery by a bit, maybe even make it so aerial Flame Choke no longer puts him in freefall, and you'll have buffed him into being a functional character.

"But they can't buff him because he's so good casually!" So what? I don't think the changes I'm suggesting would even make him that much better in a casual setting. K Rool is even better casually, and has seen love from what, 2 or 3 patches now? It's baffling to me that already-good characters like Young Link and the Samuses have seen QoL and buffs, Incineroar has had his already-better-than-Ganon's recovery buffed and recently got another kill throw, and yet here Ganon sits, languishing as everyone around him gets buffed into being functional, and then receives more buffs on top of that a couple patches or so later. It's time Ganon finally got some love

Wizard foot clanks with Hero’s frizzle or loses to it. IMO that’s just bull crap, why are such basic moves clanking with wizards foot. I think that wizards foot should have super high priority, since the only things that it does beat are like Uncharged toon link arrows, which deal 2%.

 

[stixie]

Yeah his kit as a whole is not good. So... without further ado:

Ganondorf

Ganon is a slow character with high damage and high knockback moves. Let's take a look at how to FIX this character.

Up Tilt - Move is near completely useless

• Change move entirely.
• Should be a slap above him (like DK or something of that nature).

Forward Throw

• Should be a true kill throw (120% or so on ledge).

Up B

• Comes out MUCH faster... like frame 6 or so. It should be a true OOS like Falcon's.
• Much less endlag... like 15 frames of endlag (instead of 30).
• Less lag after grabbing (prevents rock crocking).

Side B - This would fix Ganon's recovery imo

• Does NOT place you into freefall.
• Opponent dies FIRST.

Neutral B

• Comes out faster (40-50 frame startup instead of 70-80).
• Goes through shields.

Down B

• Travels faster (not startup time just faster across the screen).
• More knockback.

This is all I think he needs to bring him out of bottom tier.