Ganondorf 2011 Matchup Discussion - Marth

[Supreme Dirt]

This week is Wario and Marth. No witty image or anything, sorry.

Discuss.

 

[smashkng]

Marth's Fair is so broken. I don't know if we can punish a perfectly spaced retreated Fair but at least just hope that the Marth messes up his spacing and punish with Uair/Wizard Kick I think. I'm not sure but I think you can punish a DB neutral angled 4 with Fsmash OoS because it has a ton of ending lag and little shieldstun, but the Marth doesn't have to do that. Luckily most Marths end up screwing up their spacing so we can punish him because it's very hard to consistently keep perfect spacing. If he misses his Up b onstage, punish with whatever you want, even with a charged Fsmash. He can gimp us very easily with his Fair, but we can also gimp him with our Uair or a well timed Dair through his Up b.

This is -3 at least. Being outranged by a disjointed hitbox and having poor OoS options hurt a lot in this MU. Let's stop using our traditional ratio system and forget about the variations of our unwinnable MU ratios.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth's F-air isn't really that big of a deal, since you have aerials that he has to respect before thinking about jumping around (U-air oos lol). Actually if there is an aerial that's really annoying for Ganon to punish, N-air can be significantly worse for Ganon to deal with given its ability to control space for an extended duration making it harder for Ganon to anti-air.

Aside from that, DB honestly is what destroys Ganon in this matchup. It's hard for Marth to misspace and punishing it if they have any idea how to hit confirm is a pure guessing game that is not in Ganon's favor.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Don't try to punish a landed NAir. Roll away after it hits you. It's a guaranteed grab if you try to punish.

A2Z is very much right, NAir is Satan. Actually, it's worse than Satan. That means it wants to usurp us. Dancing Blade is a *******, and is very hard to punish, of course. Don't put yourself in bad situations.

Marth is definitely a MU where we lose on their CP. You MUST win game 1.

I'd ban FD, personally, and take Marth somewhere there is a lot of space. Stadium 1 can work, but Stadium 2, Norfair, or even Pirate Ship can work, though if you play the water camping game he has a fairly powerful spike he can also take advantage of. Regardless of how well you think you might do, Pictochat is a bad option.
I figure I might throw my two cents in about banned stages, since technically if they agree you can take them there, and the Marth is unlikely to know much about Ganon or banned stages, so this may provide an advantage. Rumble Falls would work very well so long as you can FoG from an airdodge. We have so much more vertical movement than Marth with it. It's also very large, so keeping away should work too. New Pork City is generally a bad idea. Marth is faster than we are, falls faster too, so he can circle camp us all day. Don't let him convince you to go to Skyworld or Hanenbow, nothing silly like that. Familiarize yourself with RF and ask every Marth you ever face if they wouldn't mind playing the match there. The worst they can do is say no.

 

[Anaky]

70:30 Marths Favour, maybe worse.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'll get a video up of the MU within the next day or so. It's online, but anyone who knows me knows I'd never consider using a video for MU reference unless the lag was completely innocuous and wasn't a legit match.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, I know. I'm still amazed at how you manage to get such low lag.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yeah, I know. I'm still amazed at how you manage to get such low lag.

I port-forward, so when I play Brawl, it has the highest traffic priority. So even if the other person's connection is ***, the port-forwarding makes it bearable.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Huh, I never thought of that. I'll give it a try.

 

[V]

My friend plays ganon all the time. If marth goes aggro against him without good spacing ganon can actually punish him fairly well. The problem is when he plays patiently. Marth has two grounded moves and an aerial that come out in 4 frames so he can react to anything you do. Wiz kick loses to counter. Retreated bair/dolphin slash beat flame choke. We can fair you out of your upB. At tipper range you can't punish us out of shield. Your dtilt does outrange ours so keep that in mind. Once you shield you're at a large disadvantage. We can spike your upB if we time it right. Edgehogging is easy against you. Counter ***** slow startup moves. If we play at tipper range you have no reliable ways to get us offstage. You can gimp us with uair but getting us offstage is hard to begin with. We ledgetrap and juggle you very hard. Imo this is 80-20 or +4 marth

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL +4 isn't an 80:20

+4 means the MU CANNOT be won. Not very hard. Flat out impossible. Ice Climbers is a +4. Marth is +3, a very large advantage.

Also imo NAir is better at lower percents out of Up-B. More damage.

 

[smashkng]

A 80/20 matchup IS a -4 MU. And if you ask any other character boards, they'll say that anything harder than 70/30 is near unwinnable. I don't like people calling our "better" worse than 70/30 unwinnable MUs to not be -4. We can still win against those murder MUs by just being smarter or by relying on the opponent not knowing the Ganon matchup at all though.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I guess my views on MUs are skewed a little. Fair enough.

Nonetheless, I still think we should have some way to represent that this is above the level of ICs/Sheik/Falco/MK-level MUs, which even without them knowing the MU we still lose with little to moderate effort on their part. It just bothers me immensely to class the Marth MU in the same tier as the Ice Climbers MU, when one is clearly more difficult than the other.

 

[V]

Then maybe we should have +/-5 if not then yeah I guess -3 would be better.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I think I'm just going to separate the worst of the 30- MUs into -5. That'll solve everything.

So how about stages. Where should we go if we want to win this? I honestly have no idea, I'm thinking large stages, FD being one.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I like smashville and battlefield for this match-up for a number of reasons. It seems easy here to get Marth into the air (high into the air) for some uair damage.

Am I crazy? anyone agree? Also, frigate orpheon maybe?