Ganon Frame Data - Smash 4 Edition

[Big O]

Smash 4 runs at 60 frames per second (1 frame = 1/60th of a second). Basically, this means that everything you do happens within X frames after pressing buttons. Every action takes a certain amount of time to happen, which can be measured in frames.

Attacking frames are in yellow, invincibility frames are in green, super armor frames are in blue, and windboxes are in orange.

Active frames tell you both the earliest and latest frames a move does it's job. If a move hits multiple times, each hit will be separated by a comma.

The number you see under total frames essentially tells you how long it takes to complete the move. You can act freely starting from the next frame.

I haven't gotten around to doing some of the more obscure things like items/throws and will finish the custom move stuff when I can. If you see an xx, it's just a placeholder value to be filled in later. Any number marked with a question mark I haven't tested too thoroughly or at all.

Ground Attacks
​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Jab | 8-9 | 34 | 7/6 |
Grab | 7-8 | 35 | Unblockable |

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Dash Atk | 10-19 | 41 | 10/7 | Weak hit 13-19
Dash Grab | 11-12 | 44 | Unblockable |
Pivot Grab | 10-11 | 41 | Unblockable |

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Ftilt | 10-12 | 39 | 9 |
Utilt | 6-70 , 81-84 | 114 | 18 |20 Bonus shield damage
Dtilt | 10-12 | 35 | 9 |

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Fsmash Up| 21-26 | 59 | 15 |
Fsmash Side | 21-26 | 59 | 15 | Charges on frame 10
Fsmash Down | 21-26 | 59 | 15 |
Usmash | 21-23 | 41 | 15/14 | Charges on frame 10
Dsmash | 15-18, 35-38 | 63 | 5, 10/9 | Charges on frame 5

Aerials​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Auto-Cancel Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Nair | 7-13, 17-29 | 41 | 17 | 1-3, 38+ | 6/4, 8/7 | Weak hit on frames 9-13, 19-29
Fair | 14-19 | 44 | 22 | 1-6, 55+ | 12/11 |
Bair | 10-12 | 35 | 19 | 1-6, 22+ | 11 |
Uair | 6-16 | 33 | 19 | 25+ | 9/8/7/6/5 | Weak semi-spike on frames 11-16
Dair | 16-18 | 44 | 26 | 1-3, 32+ | 13/11 | Transcendent priority

Neutral B​

*No Super Armor in the air​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
*Warlock Punch | 70-71 | 117 | 11-65
*Warlock Punch (B-reverse) | 80-81 | 127? | 21-67
*Warlock Blade | 53-58 , 60-66 | 117 | 8-52 ... 20/50 Bonus shield damage ... Transcendent priority
*Warlock Blade (B-reverse) | 63-68 , 70-76 | 127? | 18-60 ... 20/50 Bonus shield damage ... Transcendent priority
Warlock Thrust | 40-41 | 106 | Transcendent priority on explosion
Warlock Thrust (B-reverse) | 50-51 | 116? | Transcendent priority on explosion

Side B​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Notes
Flame Choke | 16-30 | 59 | |
Flame Choke (Air) | 19-31 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Choke lasts 73 frames
Flame Wave | 21-35 | 79 | |
Flame Wave (Air) | 24-35 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Wave lasts 78 frames
Flame Chain | 19-23 , 25-41, 43-45 | 93 | | The windbox is unblockable lol
Flame Chain (Air) | 27-38, 40-41 | xx | 30 | Jump > Flame Chain lasts 83 frames

Up B​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Landing Lag | Notes
Dark Dive | 14-28, 34-36 | xx | 30? | First hit is a grab
Dark Fists | 15-16, 42-44 | xx | 26? | 5-14
Dark Vault | 14, 40-42 | xx | 36? | Both hits are grabs

Down B​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Wizard's Foot | 16-35 | 76 | 8/7 | Can WKC during frames 40-50 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 68 offstage w/o WKC
Wizard's Foot (Air) | 16-38 | 57 | 10 | 10 Bonus shield damage
Wizard's Dropkick | 20-43 | 65 | 7/6 | Can WKC during frames 46-50 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 73 offstage w/o WKC
Wizard's Dropkick (Air) | 19-31 | 60 | 8/7/6 | 10 Bonus shield damage
Wizard's Assault | 29-46 | 87 | 7/6 | Can WKC during frames 51-62 (approx.) ... Ends on frame 78 offstage w/o WKC
Wizard's Assault (Air) | 32-44 | 73 | 10/8 | 10 Bonus shield damage

Dodge Data​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Spot Dodge | 4-19 | 28
Front Roll | 4-19 |33 | Can cancel into item toss
Back Roll | 4-19 | 33 | Can cancel into item toss
Air Dodge | 4-29 | 34 | Landing Lag = 21

Ledge Data​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Ledge Climb | 1-32 | 33 | Can't be buffered
Ledge Roll | 1-25 | 49 |
Ledge Jump | 1-12 | 12 | Can't buffer actions during jump
Ledge Attack | 24-26 | 54 | 1-21

Item Data

Tested using banana's
Hitbox is active as long as the item is airborne
​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Fthrow | 9+ | 25 |
Bthrow | 8+ | 23 |
Uthrow | 8+ | 26 |
Dthrow | 8+ | 23 |
Dash Throw | 5+ | 39 |

Can DI while airborne
Changes to ground values upon landing
​

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Notes
Fthrow (Air) | 6+ | 21 |
Bthrow (Air) | 7+ | 23 |
Uthrow (Air) | 6+ | 23 |
Dthrow (Air) | 6+ | 23 |
Z-Drop | 1+ | 1 |

Extra Stuff​

Jump Squat - 7 (Time it takes to go from ground to air/jump startup)
Full Hop - 44
Short Hop - 29
AC/Hard Landing Lag - 5 (Landing at high fall speed or with an AC'd aerial)

 

[Big O]

Reserved (in case I need space).

 

[Vermanubis]

Thanks for writing this up, dude.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Thanks for this Big.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Top work my good sir!

 

[Z1GMA]

Awesome, O.

Flame Chain has a windbox? Can you tell us more about it?

 

[Big O]

Awesome, O.

Flame Chain has a windbox? Can you tell us more about it?

Basically, if you are close to Ganon you get pushed forward a little bit to make sure the rest of the move connects. It also pushes them even if they shield, unlike other windboxes. From what I can tell, it can't push them offstage while shielding though.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Another 25 insufferable lag frames for a move that doesn't even have the damage or knockback to warrant that. Sakurai....

 

[DakotaBonez]

You even got all the custom move's frame data!

 

[Opana]

Really wanted to know Warlock Punch's SA frames, thanks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seeing the data on Warlock Blade makes me believe it's overall the best Neutral B. It actually has decent lingering frames in addition to its massive range which can make a huge difference when covering a landing. It's also worth noting that the move has a massive shield damage modifier and does like 90% of a shield in a single hit.

Though realistically, the move is more useful in teams/FFAs. But I do think it's actually usable in singles, if you treat it like U-tilt. U-tilt has its uses for ledge pressure. Warlock Blade is like U-tilt but can cover options a bit better on stage.

 

[Z1GMA]

Ok, so how does the windbox on WB work?

 

[A2ZOMG]

My guess is that the windbox is a close range hitbox that pushes people a little bit outwards. Ganondorf lunges forward when he does Warlock Blade, and I believe the windbox most likely just prevents the move from whiffing in very close range.

 

[Big O]

Seeing the data on Warlock Blade makes me believe it's overall the best Neutral B. It actually has decent lingering frames in addition to its massive range which can make a huge difference when covering a landing. It's also worth noting that the move has a massive shield damage modifier and does like 90% of a shield in a single hit.

Though realistically, the move is more useful in teams/FFAs. But I do think it's actually usable in singles, if you treat it like U-tilt. U-tilt has its uses for ledge pressure. Warlock Blade is like U-tilt but can cover options a bit better on stage.

Ya good catch. When I looked at the values, it seems that tipper WB instantly breaks shields (50 bonus shield damage). I added bonus shield damage values to the notes for values that are 10 or higher.

I also added stuff to Down B and changed up Neutral B for simplicity.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'll add this to the ATS thread with your permission @ Big O

 

[Z1GMA]

I'll add this to the ATS thread with your permission @ Big O

Feel free to put my video of Low% Combos in that OP as well, Kalm.

*edit : Never mind. I just saw you put it in the Video Thread.

 

[Big O]

I'll add this to the ATS thread with your permission @ Big O

Sure, go ahead.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ya good catch. When I looked at the values, it seems that tipper WB instantly breaks shields (50 bonus shield damage). I added bonus shield damage values to the notes for values that are 10 or higher.

I also added stuff to Down B and changed up Neutral B for simplicity.

I was wondering why WB broke Shields reliably.

 

[Big O]

Added item data and finished ledge stuff.

 

[Z1GMA]

If you get time, O, could you test Shield Stun or Ganon's +frames when hitting shields?

 

[_Magus_]

Great stuff! We needed this. Thanks bro.

 

[Big O]

If you get time, O, could you test Shield Stun or Ganon's +frames when hitting shields?

Added effective shieldstun (shieldstun + shield hitlag differential) to some of the moves. If there are numbers separated by a /, the one on the left is the sweetspot and damage decreases as you go right. For the most part, shieldstun seems to be a function of damage just like Brawl.

 

[JmacAttack]

Why is this not a sticky yet?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is this not a sticky yet?

Ray_Kalm has it linked in the general competitive information thread, so technically we have our things organized.

 

[Big O]

@ Ray_Kalm you should probably re-paste the first post of this thread in your op. There are a few additions missing (like items and shieldstun) that keep what's in your op from being up to date.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@ Ray_Kalm you should probably re-paste the first post of this thread in your op. There are a few additions missing (like items and shieldstun) that keep what's in your op from being up to date.

@ A2ZOMG @ Big O Funny thing is, I was just doing that, but had a problem that now doesn't allow me to edit the page at all, I spoke to @ Vermanubis about this.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To add to this, I am certain these are the new frames for N-air.

Active: 7-13 17-29
Total: 41

 

[Big O]

To add to this, I am certain these are the new frames for N-air.

Active: 7-13 17-29
Total: 41

Ya that's what I got for the new Nair. I haven't actually tested the duration frames though. Second hit of Nair just happens 3 frames earlier so the total duration also ends 3 frames earlier too. I haven't really updated this one in a while, but I'll probably get around to doing so sometime soon.

 

[Darkshadovv]

Warlock Punch and Blade got armor on B-reverse as well, as stated in the 1.1.3 patch notes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ya that's what I got for the new Nair. I haven't actually tested the duration frames though. Second hit of Nair just happens 3 frames earlier so the total duration also ends 3 frames earlier too. I haven't really updated this one in a while, but I'll probably get around to doing so sometime soon.

I did a very crude but accurate test that confirms that the 2nd hit of N-air completely without a doubt ends on frame 29. I used Ganon and Link's airdodges as reference points (intangibility ends on frame 29 and 28 respectively)

First hit I will admit I didn't thoroughly test. However through painstaking comparison with the startup of Ganon's B-air, D-air, Wizkick, and Jab in some shape and form, the total duration of N-air and startup of the 2nd hit are completely accurate numbers on my end.

 

[Z1GMA]

Pre-patch, the second kick of Nair stayed out for hours whit its lingering hitbox when Edge Guarding.
How much does it differ from the new second kick of Nair?

It's still effective, but I feel it isn't as effective as before.

 

[Darkshadovv]

Pre-patch, the second kick of Nair stayed out for hours whit its lingering hitbox when Edge Guarding.
How much does it differ from the new second kick of Nair?

It's still effective, but I feel it isn't as effective as before.

Still there, just on frame 29 instead of 32 since the second kick is faster.

 

[Big O]

I updated all the shieldstun values, landing lags for aerials, dodge durations, new Nair stuff, and Neutral B stuff. His frame data hasn't really changed too much, so it didn't take too long to update. Happy New Year guys.

 

[Darkshadovv]

*No Super Armor in the air or when B-Reversed


Uhm... Uh...

 

[Theosmeo]

*No Super Armor in the air or when B-Reversed


Uhm... Uh...

Oh yeah, didn't even notice that, the numbers themselves have the data though, so it's not a big deal or fix

 

[Big O]

*No Super Armor in the air or when B-Reversed


Uhm... Uh...

I updated the numbers in the table and the descriptions in the tables, but I forgot about that part lol. Should be fixed now.

 

[Theosmeo]

Neither this nor kurogane hammer has the frame data for his pummel(which isn't super useful but I'm interested) if I were interested in testing for that how should I do it?

 

[Big O]

Neither this nor kurogane hammer has the frame data for his pummel(which isn't super useful but I'm interested) if I were interested in testing for that how should I do it?

In mastercore, his pummel is 076 - CATCHATTACK. It hits on frame 4, and the hitbaox only lasts one frame. As far as how laggy it is, you'd just have to manually test it to find that out because there is no IASA and the duration is tied to the animation data, which AFAIK hasn't been deciphered yet. Another thing is that pummels also have to include the hitlag of hitting the opponent when factoring in lag, and that can change based on how stale the pummel is. That plus not being able to buffer anything out of a pummel means you have to spend a good amount of time on trial and error just getting the inputs to happen ASAP.

If you do go about labbing this out, let me know what you get and I'll be sure to include it + give you credit. My guesstimate is about 35 frames, but I am honestly not curious enough about it to look into it.

 

[Theosmeo]

In mastercore, his pummel is 076 - CATCHATTACK. It hits on frame 4, and the hitbaox only lasts one frame. As far as how laggy it is, you'd just have to manually test it to find that out because there is no IASA and the duration is tied to the animation data, which AFAIK hasn't been deciphered yet. Another thing is that pummels also have to include the hitlag of hitting the opponent when factoring in lag, and that can change based on how stale the pummel is. That plus not being able to buffer anything out of a pummel means you have to spend a good amount of time on trial and error just getting the inputs to happen ASAP.

If you do go about labbing this out, let me know what you get and I'll be sure to include it + give you credit. My guesstimate is about 35 frames, but I am honestly not curious enough about it to look into it.

Alright thanks, I have a vague plan on how to do it so I'll see, I might need a 60 fps capture setup though...

 

[Ffamran]

Neither this nor kurogane hammer has the frame data for his pummel(which isn't super useful but I'm interested) if I were interested in testing for that how should I do it?

In mastercore, his pummel is 076 - CATCHATTACK. It hits on frame 4, and the hitbaox only lasts one frame. As far as how laggy it is, you'd just have to manually test it to find that out because there is no IASA and the duration is tied to the animation data, which AFAIK hasn't been deciphered yet. Another thing is that pummels also have to include the hitlag of hitting the opponent when factoring in lag, and that can change based on how stale the pummel is. That plus not being able to buffer anything out of a pummel means you have to spend a good amount of time on trial and error just getting the inputs to happen ASAP.

If you do go about labbing this out, let me know what you get and I'll be sure to include it + give you credit. My guesstimate is about 35 frames, but I am honestly not curious enough about it to look into it.

The people - I don't know if it was just one person or not - who did sixriver's character frame data compilation has pummel, throw hit frames, and more; sixriver's page is this: http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/Character_data.htm. The problem is reading Japanese which you don't really need to if you know certain things... First off, Ganondorf's Japanese name is written as: ガノンドロフ. Use Ctrl + F to find where he is... or I'll do it and here's the link to Ganondorf's spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MA7JA-QFj52k-FjWQLgfRXRWlmMCQ65tM0o9P3qwv6U/edit?usp=sharing. You don't really need to know how to read Japanese if you're familiar with Ganondorf's frame data - memory, another chart to compare, etc - like what's frame 10 that Ganondorf has? Dash Attack, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair. Now, what's frame 10-12? Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair. Which is probably going to come first? Ftilt. Note: first page of all of their character data is normals, aerials, grabs, and throws, second page is Specials, and the third page is for miscellaneous stuff like jump, item throw, etc... @Lavani translated some of them with an image to help... I just use Google Translate and memory on certain stuff.

Anyway, Ganondorf's pummel comes out at frame 4 and has, according to sixriver, 30 total frames; it'll be in the first page, in the section labeled: "つかみ", and in the last row labeled: "打撃". A note: sixriver uses total frames and not IASA or FAF which is just total frames + 1... why we can't use total frames too is beyond me... Continuing, that means Ganondorf's pummel recovery frames is 27; total frames - (startup + active frames) + 1 which is 30 - 4 + 1 which equals 30 - 3 which equals 27. IASA and FAF would make this easier as it would just be IASA or FAF - (startup + active frames) which if you noticed something is (total frames + 1) - (startup + active frames). If I confused you, then sorry... So, it takes 4 frames for Ganondorf to connect a pummel, but it takes 27 frames for him to reset for a free action. Two pummels would be 4 (hit) + 27 (recovery) + 4 (hit) + 27 (recovery) = 62 frames total. So, frame 4 is a hit, 27 frames of recovery before frame 35 is the hit, and then 27 more frames before he can do anything else which would be frame 62. That's assuming everything's frame perfect... I hope this helped.