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Official Ganon Edgeguarding

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
One thing you should add @ -ACE- -ACE- is that the light shield can be used as a fakeout against Marth. Do it early while they have time to change their mind about going for a sweetspot. Then jump back and bair/uair. **** works pretty well.
 

WoK_a^2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
22
Hey scrubby Ganon here, I saw a few things but I was wondering if there could be a discussion on edge guarding peach.

I saw the get under her and try to up air, but I was wondering about using wizards foot spike. I feel if spaced in front of her she'll pretty much be forced to fall into its path.

Obviously there's the threat of missing it, but there always is that threat and that's why you don't miss right?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Spacing WF spike vs peach is just too hard, forget it (against good peaches). It can always work if it hits her dress while floating, and it will almost always be beaten during the startup frames of her up-b. It will rarely trade with the open umbrella also. This, and too much risk involved.

Reverse uair is still all you need, but you can't tipman spike peach the same way you do other characters. You have to 1) wait until her up-b reaches max height before you contest it (requires brief pause), or 2) use only frame 16 (the last frame of uair hitbox- the tippy toe-- and space it like a SURGEON) of the tipman spike like a baller and beat her up-b. Then grab ledge.

Because of peach's recovery, bair is a slightly worse edgeguarding tool than it usually is (comparatively speaking). Non-lethal bairs give her a ton of recovery options and can even lead to neutral game being reset. Non-lethal uairs uairs are lethal. Lol

Stomp isn't bad since it forces peach to perform a very fast meteor cancel or die, but stomps have to spaced extremely well. Don't watch Renth vs Moltov and think it's easy.

One of the biggest things is not giving her the ledge for free (that sounds ******** but really). Don't let her mindgame you into doing something too soon. Don't get fair'd. Remember, she's either
1. Going for ledge
2. Trying to land on stage near the ledge
3. Attacking you (fair)
or
4. Floating completely over you

She's normally going for ledge. Know the capabilities of your uair/bair and just be safer than her. Her aerial movement can be fakey but she has waaaaaay less options than a grounded Ganon so no excuses. Don't over commit, wait until she does.

When she's up-b'ing back, and you're on ledge, you can ledgehop uair regrab (light a cigar and say "bodayyyyd" when you land that) for the insta-edgehog, or RLD dj uair. Any time you hit her with a uair it's worth it. Then just grab ledge.

I thought about doing peach back in the day but it was kinda difficult putting it on paper (well, the boards). I just didn't feel like I could put all my good habits into words accurately.
 
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Xtra_Crispy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
54
One of the biggest things is not giving her the ledge for free (that sounds ******** but really). Don't let her mindgame you into doing something too soon. Don't get fair'd. Remember, she's either
1. Going for ledge
2. Trying to land on stage near the ledge
3. Attacking you (fair)
or
4. Floating completely over you
.
You missed one Ace! 5. Airdodge through you. Every Peach I've met uses her boss airdodge to juke you out when you commit so just be sure to watch out for that (obviously it's an option for every character but Peach's especially fish for it). It's not a very obvious animation and is quick. Just be wary and keep yourself in a position so that if she does, you can punish her BEFORE she hits the ground.

I have a bit different of a philosophy when edgeguarding Peach though. I treat her sort of like edgeguarding Samus and keep the mindset that you don't have to kill her on the first goaround. Peach is FAR better than you are offstage so you don't want to challenge her too much there otherwise it could be Gimp city. Instead, just wall her off long enough so that you can start taking away her options. What makes Peach's recovery so damn good is that she can go virtually anywhere offstage and hang out there forever until you are forced to commit. Instead of keeping Ace's list, I keep a list of everything she *can* still do without killing herself in the process. The main ones you have are:
1. Float
2. Double Jump
3. Areal (usually fair)
4. Airdodge
5. Up B
6. (VERY situational) Peach Bomb recovery

Also like Samus, the more of these you take away, the easier she gets to edgeguard by FAR (eg: no tether means you get a free stomp). I disaggree with Ace that using bair to reset the situation is bad because usually when you land a bair, you at least take away one of these. Now if you snipe Peach's float, your job got a lot easier. If you snipe her float AND doublejump, she should be dead. I do agree however, that upair is better because if you land the tipman when she has no double jump, she is forced to UP-b low and you should be able to edgehog pretty easily.

Note: the overall "goal" for edgeguarding character should be to get her to use her up-b low. Getting her to use it high isn't the worst because that limits her options a lot but once she uses it low that should guarantee the kill.

I won't write my thought processes into a guide format just because I suck at writing, but here are some uncategorized observations/ theories that I think are important:
-Generally, Peach won't use an areal to recover if she doesn't have her float. Even watching videos of Armada, the only real times an areal is used at all during recovery is float --> fall down fair and occasionally Float+nair. This isn't to say they can't (always watch out for the nairplane), just Peach's areals don't really suit covering her recovery as well as say, Marth. Not getting hit by these should be a very very high priority, because doing so assures that they get back onstage with stage control and possibly a combo.

-The mixup to float+ fair is her airdodge. Now if Peach starts aggressively floating back to stage (lol at her moving 2mph) with no wiggle or pullback I don't want to see any of you Ganon mains get juked like a damn bull because I almost guarantee she is going to airdodge. Same goes pretty much anytime you jump out wildly and preempt an areal. Use this to your advantage and bait it out.

-Once you take away the float Peach kind of goes into panic mode a bit. Priority number one becomes touching down to stage to get it back. Now you don't have to worry so much about being hit because she can't float anymore to carry you off (though if you get hit and she grabs ledge it's your stock so still be careful). If she is in tumble she has to use her upB or double jump. If there is anytime to go deep offstage it's now, especially if she doesn't have a DJ. The startup for her Parasol is the only time she doesn't have control, so if she is too close, come in towards her side and fair her for the stock.

-If Peach is floating way the hell up high over stage trying to get back, number 1 priority becomes not letting her touch the ground. Jump up and be a shark and threaten her with up airs (remind her how dangerous coming down is) but DO NOT double jump up there. Peach doesn't have anything to beat an up-air below her, so her stock relies on her juking you or airdodging. If you use your double jump to chase her, a) you have no answer once she airdodges and b) that's a good way to lose a stock if she counter attacks. Stay directly under her, use full hops to challenge her as much as you can, be patient, and knock her as far offstage as possible once you get her to airdodge. Above the stage is still offstage, so remember you have the advantage and she is just trying to get down.

-When she is stalling with her up-b close to stage, set up shop right on top of the ledge and start throwing some areal walls. This is when you use reverse Up-air because bair is going to send her too high. Keep her far enough away where if she freefalls, she at least has to redeploy the umbrella to grab ledge. If you're good at it, Up-air+edgecancel --> edgehog is pretty damn good if you see her drop the umbrella and try to make a break for the ledge. Try to fall with her so that the upair forces her to fade back and you grab ledge before her. Mixing up short hops and full hops is good mindgames because she will try to time her fall with your rise.

-The overall idea with edgeguarding Peach is to make HER do something. She is the one offstage, so if she does nothing she dies. You have the upper hand here, and keep that upper hand as much as possible. Like Ace said, don't commit too soon, and keep her options in mind and she really isn't too bad. Don't let her touch the ground and reset the float/ double jump because then you just have to start over from the beginning.

Edit: Just because I mentioned it I should say how to cover it but if she uses Peach bomber to recover just stomp her if you can. If she is too deep, then refresh invincibility (you need to be pretty much completely invincible on the ledge that's too important of a Ganon tech not to know) until she upbs and goes for ledge. Her upB is slow enough where you should be able to roll on reaction alone

Double Edit: Oh yeah, if for some reason she has a turnip and throws it back to stage to turn around or something, CATCH IT. Ganon has an excellent item throw and Peach's recovery is so horizontally linear that turnips DESTROY her recovery lol (irony at it's finest). I would reccomend throwing it right at her face when she floats to make her either come out of it or get hit. But seriously if you can get your hands on a turnip to edgeguard you can swag super hard and edgeguard super easily.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
I figured that little peach post and the new title would lead to discussion.

True. I like to dsmash when I suspect the airdodge. Or grab.

I maintain that bair is far inferior to uair. Sometimes the situation calls for it, but it sends her extremely high up and she gains a lot of recovery options as opposed to bring low. Admittedly, I am interested in getting them the first time and not playing keep away from the ledge for an extended period of time. Learn to kill characters quickly.

I'll update the thread later.
 
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WoK_a^2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
22
Is coming from below and going for the (nipple) spike of down air also to rosky/hard to space? I'm with you ace where I just wanna hit em one more time and be done with it.

Edit: also in general I haven't seen his dair spike talked about at all. What's up with that?
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
LOL yeah it's kiiinda hard, about the same as dair'ing right beside her. There's some room for error (since you're not directly challenging a hitbox) but not much at all.
 
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Xtra_Crispy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
54
She has a bit too good of areal mobility to go for the nipple spike imo but I also try not to go for too many dair spikes. Theres just too much she can do about it that could cause you your stock like dair+bair you offstage and suddenly you are being edgeguarded. That being said, if you are confident that you will hit it (and get the nipple spike) then by all means send her down to Davey Jones lol

As for why Dair isn't talked about too much: it's pretty telegraphed and easy to counter by a lot of the cast, plus most characters can meteor cancel it and be back onstage before you recover. Where it's good is against Fox/Falco when they are right next to the edge and forced to go straight up or wallride because even if they meteor cancel the startup on Firefox/bird is enough to give you time to reset. It's also very good against characters like DK and Bowser who can't gain much height on their upBs. Also, against Falcon if you want to REALLY take a stock away on yoshi's/ dreamland, Dair him, get caught by his meteor cancel, walltech+jump and dair him again (or fair).

Basically: offstage dair is usually your high risk, medium reward option. It can guarantee a kill if you catch someone offguard, but good players will pretty much always get the meteor cancel which can be extremely dangerous for Ganon since you NEVER want to lose a race to the ledge. Onstage dair is a pretty good option against sweetspotters if you get the timing right, but using it pretty much forces you to commit only to the dair edgeguard and can be pretty easily avoided. If you do use onstage dair, keep your back turned because the hitbox is a bit behind ganon and you can fake people out with reverse upAir baits
 

WoK_a^2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
22
Was talking about specifically the spike hit box of the down air, so that way you won't have to worry about them getting back, but I see what you're saying about it being super telegraphed.

And my bad should have mentioned I was always imaging edge guarding peach that had done an early parasol. The peach I played last had habits of doing that so I was thinking I'd go for those aforementioned spike attempts since they can only drift and fall at that point.
 

tm

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
819
Location
NWOH
Hey scrubby Ganon here, I saw a few things but I was wondering if there could be a discussion on edge guarding peach.

I saw the get under her and try to up air, but I was wondering about using wizards foot spike. I feel if spaced in front of her she'll pretty much be forced to fall into its path.

Obviously there's the threat of missing it, but there always is that threat and that's why you don't miss right?
Sup wok. Basically what ACE said. Know how long float lasts (it's like 2.7 seconds, so if you want to jump out and hit her, do it at the very end so she can't juke you out. This applies to non-edgeguarding situations as well). Her airdodge goes really far and has a lot of invincibility, but you can usually grab her landing on reaction due to the extra lag and dthrow -> bair / fair / upsmash depending on %.
Stomp is actually a really good edgeguard vs her, but super hard to hit with because her parasol hitbox is crazy, and she can 'slide' into you while you're starting your stomp and disrupt it. Best to do when she's slightly above stage height or lower, and face away from her. Also you can punish her airdodge with stomp as she lands if she's near 100% to ensure the KO (other aerials she can live to really high %s)
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
I play against a good Peach nearly every day. I could probably weigh in on a lot of this nonsense. I've developed some peach specific stuff against her as well to deal with her ****. That match-up I still feel is pretty even, but it's probably not once the players get to a certain level.
 

WoK_a^2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
22
Ganons dair doesn't have a true "nipple" spike hitbox like falcon's. You can always mc.
huh yeah no idea where i got that false info from. I swear I had read that somewhere but thanks for correcting me.

I play against a good Peach nearly every day. I could probably weigh in on a lot of this nonsense. I've developed some peach specific stuff against her as well to deal with her ****. That match-up I still feel is pretty even, but it's probably not once the players get to a certain level.
and whats holding ya back? we're waiting for it!
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
By the way, this is a good spot for people to post links of examples of good edgeguarding (be it a read or multiple-option coverage) as well as instances where things went wrong in an edgeguarding situation and why.
 

X WaNtEd X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
1,647
Location
Lowell, MA
Idk why, but sometimes using fsmash to edgeguard Peach works. Bait them into going to the stage. You have to read where they go to get it off, but many people disrespect the range on fsmash so you can land it. I believe you literally outrange tipper fsmash because of how Ganon moves forward with it.
 

Bwmat

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Messages
665
I think that's more that the step back allows you to avoid the tipper, then the step forward hits marth's outstretched upper body. I don't think it actually has more range than tipper relative the where you are standing when you start.
 

Superspright

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
1,334
You can use upsmash (if you time it right) to beat her fair if she tries to max space it. He leans out of the range of it if you time it right. Also, incidentally he can dodge Falco's laser with it as well--it goes through his legs at certain heights/timings.
 

Barry BlaZe

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2015
Messages
73
Location
New York
on a serious note. What are people's thoughts on edgeguarding the mario characters they always give me trouble.
 

Barry BlaZe

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2015
Messages
73
Location
New York
Try practicing invincible ledgehop uair. And when using it onstage space reverse uair to nullify pills.
Good advice will do. I want you guys to weigh in on edgeguarding peach. ialso have a really hard time when she starts running and getting turnips to camp me. :(
 

WoK_a^2

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
22
Edge guarding luigi?

My thoughts so far have been to expect a misfire and try tipman it (bair if my spacing is off but that just resets the situation of him getting a misfire) and then if it doesn't misfire depending on how close to ledge he is while falling I'll try to go out and tipman/dair him.

I have a lot of trouble though when he has all his recovery options (tornado, double jump, i guess misfire still counts too). I'm always afraid to do anything when they're tornadoing off stage cuz i don't want it to do some wonky luigi ****.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Edge guarding luigi?

My thoughts so far have been to expect a misfire and try tipman it (bair if my spacing is off but that just resets the situation of him getting a misfire) and then if it doesn't misfire depending on how close to ledge he is while falling I'll try to go out and tipman/dair him.

I have a lot of trouble though when he has all his recovery options (tornado, double jump, i guess misfire still counts too). I'm always afraid to do anything when they're tornadoing off stage cuz i don't want it to do some wonky luigi ****.
He will side-b at some point. If he has his jump, tipman it. If he's used his jump, stomp. I usually try bair against misfire. Easier to space. But yeah Tipman is obviously good.
 
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