Official Ganon Edgeguarding

[-ACE-]

Thread is now stuck. Who's next? Any suggestions? Fire away.

 

[DippnDots]

vrs zelda. It's a little bit more than just spacing i've learned. Grabs are essential but I have a hard time getting them and often will whiff / eat a fair or bair form her

ps: go to bed ace

pps: oh wait this is edgeguarding not match ups >_> edge guarding zelda is easy

 

[-ACE-]

Lol I'm working the night shift this week.

Edgeguarding zelda is all about abusing the negative aspects of her up-b. If you can read a sweespot, a well timed uair spike is great. Otherwise, force her to go where you want her and punish her landing lag. Sometimes it helps to jump out and force her to make a decision early, be it forcing her to up-b when she has less options or seeing if she will air dodge (when she's close). I have only played a few zeldas though so if you guys wanted to cover her next I could use some input.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well, i noticed jiggs wasn't there.

i don't think it's particularly possible to edgeguard jiggs unless they're really dumb, but what are your thoughts ACE?

 

[-ACE-]

It's def not simple. The best thing imo is to not to over-commit or commit to an edgeguard too early, which will not only blow your edgeguard opportunity but possibly reverse the situation as well.

To bait her, you can throw out an over-spaced aerial (like, bair far enough in front of her so that you're pretty sure it will miss unless she happens to come at you full speed and fairing) which is obviously safe and is sometimes enough to scare her into making a decision too early (then you can dj and bair/uair our land and ftilt in response to her reaction). Sometimes just getting close enough to her so that your presence pressures her can force a decision. There is a fine line between being close enough to punish her smallest mistakes and being toooooo close, so you have to be careful. Edgeguarding her isn't much different than fighting her onstage. If you keep track of how many jumps she's used that can help also. Just try your hardest to keep moving and never be predictable...

Tough one lol.

 

[Samba]

Using the down-B, standing on the edge to go straight out.
what characters would be best to do this against to prevent them from recovering?
or would you say it's always better to just stay on the stage and gimp with the uair etc...?

 

[-ACE-]

It's very risky, never the best option.

 

[DippnDots]

Not even the most explosive option, see linguini's u-tilt edgeguarding

 

[Samba]

gotta link?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I would rather D-air or tipman U-air anyone who I could conceivably hit with a Down-B edgeguard.

Furthermore in Ganon dittos, and against Captain Falcon....U-tilt > Down-B for edgeguards lol. Like dead seriously. Far safer, easier to execute (usually), and worth 9001 more style points. Btw I like to watch this vid whenever I need to see a U-tilt kill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQJGrrJ0Mpw

Sure I mean you proooobably should tipman edgeguard anyway given that someone with balls could try to edgetech the U-tilt more easily, but style points if handled correctly can go a long way in assisting your victory. =P

 

[-ACE-]

Wizards foot spike!! Underused and not super risky vs falcon/ganon if you're good with it.

 

[Divinokage]

tipman to backair just to be 100% sure they dont come back lol. It's so faceroll.

 

[-ACE-]

Tipman to immediate dropzone dair/fair is my ****. Somewhat situational but I love it. Never seen anyone else do it

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm gonna steal that someday. I will tipman U-air -> edgecancel -> D-air to overkill them. Currently the fanciest I get is tipman -> edgecancel edgehog.

 

[Samba]

backward d-air, ledge cancel, double jump, down-B
if they meteor cancel late enough and they're someone who would have to hug the wall to recover like Falco... theoretically speaking, as I just made that up and have never done it hahah!!

 

[Pi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FavIrJvy1I&feature=BFa&list=PLFA9F095DA3F59865&lf=mh_lolz

 

[-ACE-]

That's a good video. It does a good job of showing that the center of the dair hitbox is pretty much right at Ganon's heel, which is why dair'ing at the edge while facing forward blows compared to standing backwards. It also shows that fair, when spaced correctly, reaches lower than both bair and low ftilt. Good stuff.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

thats funny. at the tournament yesterday, i all the sudden started spacing that fair almost perfectly on the edge. caught some marths, falcons, and even some falcos trying to side B to the edge with it. i knew that somewhere, theres a curl under frame, and thats what i was going for, but seeing it there kinda shows me what i was already utilizing.

boss.

 

[Renth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3khVnEdfk4

unrelated to anything that has to with ganon: our boy dashizwiz needs our help. help him out yo.

 

[DippnDots]

I melted away all the rust my ganon had. Felt good... I'm going to be traveling more now. Hope to see you guys

 

[Superspright]

After watching that I just realized that there is no excuse for anyone coming back to stage.

 

[-ACE-]

Keep in mind guys, although the hitboxes of fair, bair, and low ftilt reach considerably low when spaced properly, they will not hit a perfect sweetspot like reverse uair or dair.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

reverse bair is a funny move.

i had to use it to kill a peach that was recovering weird...if i had faired i wouldve gotten umbrella'd, and uair wouldn't have killed.

so i reverse bair'd lol.

 

[-ACE-]

That's pretty sick haha. Never tried that.

 

[Larz]

My signature edge-guard is challenging but sooo satisfying.
Face the edge, shorthop backwards and hit the other player with the body part of the hitbox. This usually nails them into the stage and straight down. They usually can't ledge tech it because its mad mindgames when you jump behind them, and also if they're at a high percent they will be going like mach 6 when they impact the stage. Ganon lulz.

 

[Comrade]

Somebody mentioned the fair's hitbox and I was summoned.

Yeah. Beast. You can easily ledge guard with it if you learn the timing. But yeah, it doesn't cover some sweet spots I don't think...

 

[Geenareeno]

What move?

 

[-ACE-]

You can only hit perfect sweetspots with reverse uair and dair.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Here's how you edgeguard Fox http://makeagif.com/Ozv9cm

 

[-ACE-]

Gotta hit that mid illusion bruh

 

[tm]

Requesting addition: Link
Dude just doesn't die. Help me out guys

 

[Superspright]

Are you really having trouble with Link? Just CG the *******...once he's off stage space your uair properly and he can't recover. If you're having trouble just keep practicing it. The CG isn't hard (it's one of our easier ones). It works until ~75%. Follow it up with a uair or bair depending on where you want to send him and then edgeguard from there. You have to be vigilant. Also, none of his projectiles should really trip you up. They are too slow, and can be powershielded fairly easily. Use wavedash OoS if you need to close a gap against his spam. Just try not to get caught by his up-b OoS shenanigans or when he edge-guards you as well. Be prepared to tech the stage and punish accordingly.

 

[tm]

Are you really having trouble with Link? Just CG the *******...once he's off stage space your uair properly and he can't recover. If you're having trouble just keep practicing it. The CG isn't hard (it's one of our easier ones). It works until ~75%. Follow it up with a uair or bair depending on where you want to send him and then edgeguard from there. You have to be vigilant. Also, none of his projectiles should really trip you up. They are too slow, and can be powershielded fairly easily. Use wavedash OoS if you need to close a gap against his spam. Just try not to get caught by his up-b OoS shenanigans or when he edge-guards you as well. Be prepared to tech the stage and punish accordingly.

No problems with the CG. Several times when edge guarding I would get knicked by an arrow or lingering boomerang. The upB (recovering) is surprisingly difficult to hit. I'm not sure what the easiest way to punish it is, but I was always too late with reverse uair when he did it by ledge (or I would get hit by it). When he sweetspot hookshot, I don't know what to do other than grab ledge and force him to come up, then ledgehop uair him (which sends him onstage).

When recovering, I still find it very difficult to tech his late grounded upB when sweet spotting (there is very little hitstun). I also am not aware of how to minimize his grab follow ups or what he has guaranteed / not guaranteed. I also got shield poked A LOT after shielding projectiles (uair on platform, dsmash on ground). I feel that a lot of attacks are unsafe on his shield due to his grab and upB, so grabs are the way to go. But even then I got mixed up hard with spotdodge into stuff like dsmash / utilt.

 

[Superspright]

@ tm

Use Z or light press your shield button if you are afraid of shield pokes. Especially when you're on platforms. Ganondorf is very vulnerable from his ankles.

I believe reverse-ledge-dash if timed right would make his hook less effective. If you know he's going for it you can punish him with uair before he flops down like a limp ****. If he goes for up-b I'd even use dair to punish him at 75%+. It should kill him and he shouldn't be able to meteor-cancel without saving his jump.

No attack is safe on shield with Ganondorf unfortunately...even less so in this match-up. You really have to be fishing for the grab. If you can land the grab (by getting him into shield) then you will win this match up. He has a lot of tools to worry about so it's not a free matchup at all. You can still lose it.

His spot-dodge is excellent (best in the game)...so yeah it's not going to be easy to land a free grab on him. If you can condition him to think you'll waveland tilt or waveland jab he will go into shield. Just remember if he screws up once and doesn't read the grab he should die. So you have a very intimidating tool if you can master it. If Link goes into the air you should try to run at him--I'm pretty sure nothing he has is positive on shield at all. So you can probably just shield grab him. Time it to when he will land. Everyone has 4-5 forced frames of landing where you can't do anything. If he tries to tomahawk you you'll get him first.

This is NOT a free match-up. I hope I didn't come off like it was. You will have to work hard for it.

So to sum it up:

When he's going for his hook/up-b use ledge-invincibility and ledge-dash to punish if necessary. If you can catch him off stage then do so. If he uses up-b and has no jump then dair should kill him. If he's on stage and on the ground you're going to have to fish out a grab with safe tilts and aerials like auto-canceled bair, and uairs. If he's in the air just charge him and shield-grab him. He doesn't have much going for him in terms of aerials aside from them being disjointed. His nair is extremely disjointed, and stays out forever. He can FH two nairs before he lands which gives him a great walling tool. You have to learn to get past that. Good luck.

 

[-ACE-]

VS Link's up-b:

Reverse uair whenever possible. It forces up-b (he can't airdodge + hookshot).

When proper uair spacing isn't an option, fully space a bair on his head.

Feel free to dair when he's low, as long as you can regain control quick enough to cover his meteor cancel options.

When he hookshots the ledge and is about to grab the stage, you can hit him during the frames he grabs the ledge with reverse uair, but in most cases you'd actually just want to ledge pressure him (let him have the ledge, mindgame him and bair his getup attempt). Definitely don't do anything that could land you offstage.

 

[Linguini]

If he goes under the stage stomping him is pretty easy since his sword reaches up quite high and the stomp goes through the stage. Full jump reverse uair is unbeatable even if the link spaces the up b perfectly.

Going off stage with a bair is good against the hookshot but you have to do it quickly before he stabilizes himself or else you could end up in a ****ty situation.

 

[HackerKing]

Off topic, but I just tried out Linguini's "gay" Luigi edgeguard (using jab when he uses Up-B).
Sometimes Luigi is knocked away form the stage instead of straight down when I jab him. Am I mis-timing my jab, or is my opponent just DIing a certain way?

 

[-ACE-]

Off topic, but I just tried out Linguini's "gay" Luigi edgeguard (using jab when he uses Up-B).
Sometimes Luigi is knocked away form the stage instead of straight down when I jab him. Am I mis-timing my jab, or is my opponent just DIing a certain way?

Sounds like you're doing it right, you just have to wd to the ledge after you jab him for an edgehog or run off the ledge and uair before he can grab it.

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

Been thinking about a different approach to Spacies drawn sort of from Sheik falcon. If a spacie is knocked offstage low and far enough where an illusion/ phantasm can't go well onto stage (and possibly be ledge cancelled or other shenanigans) first go to ledge and start refreshing invincibility. If you have a good ledgestall you should be able to cover any illusion attempt on reaction. If they go for ledge, it's a quick but doable reaction to the *ping* to roll and you get an edgehog. As for their other options: If they illusion to stage, ledgehop + grab should give you a strong enough followup to send them back offstage to rinse and repeat. If they upB, ledgehop should give you enough time to set up a proper reverse upAir.

Thoughts?

 

[-ACE-]

You can cover every option but it's a lot of work. Also you won't always get the follow up to put him back offstage from a grab, all he needs to do is DI away (towards center stage) so it's either cg or techchase. No follow up when they DI your uthrow away (unless you put them on a plat).