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Official Ganon Edgeguarding 102: Peach added. Is ACE full of $#!+?

Discussion in 'Ganondorf' started by -ACE-, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2007
    Messages:
    11,491
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC

    Updated 6/26/15! Let's get this thread going again.

    Edgeguarding is one of The Dark Lord's greatest strengths, and it's about time I saw more Ganon mains ****** people offstage. I've compiled a good bit of info on edgeguarding recently and I want to share it with my fellow Ganon mains.

    The following 2 diagrams will seem elementary to some and quite helpful to others:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Ganon's uair and bair are unbeatable... sorta.

    Feel free to ask questions about any of the information I have given, and I encourage all of you to provide me with feedback and tell me who we should cover next. I hope that this will pave the way for good matchup discussions in the Ganon boards... I plan on covering all of Ganon's most important matchups.

    I'll start it off with Ganon dittos.



    vs Ganon

    First and foremost, I must say, that whenever it is both possible AND safe, use the Wizard's Foot spike. As Ganon's only true spike, no other move ensures death to another Ganon offstage like this one. The WF spike must hit, or your opponent will survive and you will most likely be edgeguarded or edgehogged. You also have to be able to make it back to the stage, so never shorthop offstage into a WF spike. From ground level (platforms are a different story), Ganon must FJ and at least reach about 3/4 of the max height of the jump before hitting down-B to be able to make it back to the ledge. To be able to make it back onto the stage (without grabbing the ledge), you must DJ, or at least wait until your FJ has reached maximum height before you hit down-B. The only catch with using the WF spike is that it can be teched if you use it to spike someone very close to the stage. Only use the WF spike when your opponent is clearly at least an inch or so from the ledge. If they are very close to the edge, you have a few more options.

    In Ganon dittos, when you knock the other Ganon offstage and he is recovering close to the stage, reverse uair (Tipman spike) is your best bet. Reverse uair can hit sweetspotters, so it essentially works wonders on other Ganons, and you never have to leave the stage. In this case you would want to hit your opponent with the tip of Ganon's toe (just before they grab the ledge), on the last frame of hitbox of the uair (see uair diagram at the top), which not only reaches lower than any other hitbox of the uair, but also yields a very steep angle of knockback (which is why this categorized as a "semi-spike"). Another great attribute of the reverse uair is that it is extremely difficult for your opponent to tech. Once you land the Tipman spike, your opponent will be attempting to use their up-B ASAP. Unless your opponent is at low%, you can usually edgehog them for a KO at this time. If you know they are going to make it back, you can reverse uair again, or bair/dair them. Dair is better if they are knocked a bit lower, and bair is better if they are clearly making it back (again, wait on the bair until they are just above stage so they can't tech). Just be cautious as the bair can be teched if your opponent is beside the edge, and the dair can be meteor cancelled (although if you stomp another Ganon below stage he is basically dead).

    *For those of you that prefer to stay on the stage and dair, it can work, but at least try to be backwards when you dair. You wouldn't think so but his heel is pretty much at the center of the hitbox. As long as you land the l-cancel you get another chance if he meteor cancels, but if they tech they can up-B or bair you. I usually use this as a last resort when I don't have enough time for something more effective/safer.

    Sometimes your opponent isn't recovering from directly below. When you hit your opponent offstage, a lot of times they are coming in directly from the side. Here you have a lot of options since Ganon has a relatively linear recovery style. This is a great opportunity for a WF spike, if you are accurate with it. In this one case, the reverse uair spike doesn't always work onstage, due to the angle at which your opponent is recovering. You can, however, jump out backwards and reverse uair them offstage, which is a great edgeguard (during the latter frames of hitbox of uair, Ganon's thigh has much more knockback than the tip of his toe; the toe just has a more downward trajectory and better "priority"). Fair and Bair are both good choices in this scenario as well, although your opponent may survive with good DI. This is not a very big problem though, as you can simply repeat the process until the fair or bair kills him. Dair is not as good in this case, because in this scenario it would be relatively easy for your opponent to meteor cancel the dair and survive.

    It's very important to watch your opponent while recovering so that you will know which edgeguarding tool to choose. One of the biggest things you are looking for is the other Ganon to use his Wizard's Foot while recovering (as we all know, this gives Ganon a free DJ even if he has already used it). If your opponent uses the WF to recover and is too close to the stage, you get a free Fair, Bair, and sometimes Dair. Don't be afraid to jump out there (and even use 2 jumps) and punch him, as long as you know it's guaranteed. It's imperative that you hit him before the down-B ends so he can't jump. Familiarize yourself with the length and trajectory of the WF and you should be able to get the KO any time another Ganon uses it too close to the stage.

    One last thing to remember is to not get hit by the other Ganon's up-B if he is using it just barely below stage (when they obviously overshoot the ledge trying to to attack you with it). The best way to deal with this is with a fully spaced bair, just as he gets above ground level. Ganon's bair has a quick and high priority hitbox that lasts for 6 frames, making it relatively easy to time and use effectively. If you wait until he is slightly past ground level he shouldn't be able to ledgetech and survive. Spacing is key here, as most attacks in melee have trouble beating the Dark Dive, and you don't want to miss out on such a KO opportunity.

    *If you get caught by the dark dive below the stage, if it is possible, you should do "The RockCrock". Doing "The RockCrock" means wallteching into an immediate fair when Falcon or another Ganon catches you in his up-b below stage level (instead of getting stage spiked). If you are fast with the fair you will hit him almost every time, which will usually kill him and you will be able to recover safely.



    vs Marth

    It's about time that the king of gimping got gimped by The Dark Lord. Luckily, marth's recovery is relatively linear, and even moreso when he has no jump. Sometimes edgeguarding Marth can be a piece of cake, and sometimes it's not so easy. Be sure to pay attention to marth as he recovers so that you will know whether or not he has used his jump, and whether or not he has used his first floaty side-b (he only gets one).

    When timed properly, reverse uair will always beat Marth's sweetspot attempt. The only time reverse uair doesn't work is when marth up-B's right beside the edge and drifts over and grabs it. If marth is barely going to make it back to the ledge and it is questionable as to whether an edgehog will do the trick or not, it's time for the lightshield edgehog. They don't call this maneuver the "marth killer" for nothing. At any point in which you know that Marth HAS to up-B in order to survive, the lightshield edgehog works wonders. To perform the lightshield edgehog, simply roll to the edge while holding Z and out (away from the stage). By holding Z, your lightshield is engaged, and by holding out, you will input shield ASDI out when you are hit with an attack. This will cause you do fall to the ledge when you are hit, since the shield ASDI wants to push you out (the direction you're holding) but there's nowhere to go but the ledge. In this case, Marth falls to his death.

    If Marth is a little bit closer and you think he will be able to just barely land on the stage, the lightshield edgehog is still a good choice. His up-B will push you to the edge, and he will land on the stage. His landing lag gives you more than enough time to ledgehop and grab him. From a grab, you can dthrow to fair or bair at med% up until like 130ish. (Example) *Always be aware of whether marth has used his jump or not. Sometimes when Marth is coming back and sees you doing the lightshield edgehog too soon, they will try to jump and fair/nair you (if possible) which will put you on the edge sooner than expected if he fairs (and if he nairs you will most likely be hit by the 2nd hitbox of the nair), so it's always good to know whether or not he has that option. You can use this this to your advantage by using lightshield for a second (fake the Marth killer), and quickly sh bair/uair'ing his dj.

    If you are on the ledge when he is recovering just below stage level, ledgedrop uair is a great way to surprise him for a KO (you can also ledgedrop bair it's just a bit more situational and you have to be a bit more precise). It's best to hit him before he uses his up-B, which could get you stage spiked. Another great option is to dj regrab just before marth is in position to be uair'd, then drop immediately (use away to drop for no fastfall and slightly more range on the uair), and uair so it will be invincible (if you are quick enough, there is ample ledge invincibility to cover every hitbox frame of the uair). Invincible uair will beat his up-B every time.

    *For even more range on the uair, you can reverse ledgedash into a uair, which usually catches them off guard. To reverse ledge dash, you ledgedrop and immediately jump holding toward the stage, then wait a split second for Ganon's body to be on the stage, then hit away and R/L.

    If Marth is close enough to dj sweetspot the ledge, it's a little more difficult to get the KO. The safest approach here would be to stay on stage. If he doesn't position his jump perfectly you might be able to sneak in a reverse uair, dair, or bair on him (just be aware that he may fastfall to avoid this and then up-B). Even if Marth gets the ledge it's not the end of the world, he's relatively easy to edge pressure as long as you don't get too close to him. A fully spaced (and fastfalled) bair (fully spaced IT CAN'T BE BEAT :>) covers standup, getup attack, ledgejump, and ledgehop anything (you might have to watch out for a counter if you don't hit him as soon as he ledgehops, but that's it). One somewhat risky way to get a KO here is doing a dropzone uair as soon as you see him jump or use his side-b. If you're quick enough and he's not at very low%, that should take the stock safely. Just remember this is really only safe and viable when marth is at least at med% and doesn't have his jump or uses it incorrectly. It's very important that you do not make a move too soon when Marth still has his jump.



    vs Sheik

    Edgeguarding Sheik may seem tricky at first, but once you master a few simple strats you'll be making recovery a real pan in the *** for any Sheik. As sheik gets closer to the stage, keep a close eye on her. If she hasn't used her up-B at a certain point, you can jump out and reverse uair or bair her. Of course there is some risk in going offstage to edgeguard her, but once you get familiar with the matchup you will be able to quickly determine whether it is safe or not.

    Your general go-to strategy vs sheik should be to take the ledge, which forces sheik to use her up-B. From here, sheik can do a number of things, depending on how close she is to the stage. If she is just barely going to make it back, hold the ledge until just before the hitbox of her up-B emerges (you do NOT want to get hit by the up-B... blowing a KO opportunity vs sheik is often synonymous with losing the match) and do a regular stand up from the ledge (if necessary, you should time your stand up animation so that you are invincible as the up-B goes past/through you) and grab her. Keep in mind that you must pause for a few frames before grabbing sheik or you'll miss the grab (sheik is so gay). Once you get the grab, you want to dthrow. If sheik is below 80% when you grab her, chaingrab her until she is at about 85-90%, dthrow again, and end with a bair or fair (you could also smash attack her out of dthrow depending on DI). If she is at very high% just dthrow to bair or fair for the KO.

    Another important thing to know is that sheik can sort of "kiss" the ledge with her up-B, and just barely land on her feet at the end of the stage. (Example) Tope does this by positioning himself at the perfect height and directing his up-B horizontally toward the stage (you may recall that when an illusion/phantasm hits just barely above/into the stage, the move will be drastically shortened but the spacie lands on his feet... this works the same way). In this case Darkrain rolled, when he could have stood up, turned around, and grabbed. Once you get used to the height that Sheik needs to be at in order to pull this off, you will have a good idea as to where she will be when her up-B finishes. If you can tell that sheik is not at the right height, she will have to up-B diagonally toward the stage and up; in that case just stand up and grab her.

    If Sheik is a bit closer to the edge, she has more options. Sometimes the sheik will start their up-B so that they vanish right where you are grabbing the ledge. From here, you don't know if they are either going to go straight up and hope that you leave the ledge so they can have it (in this case you stand up and ftilt them offstage before they fall to the ledge), or they will go straight for the ledge, hoping that you will either get off the ledge in time or get hit by her up-B, allowing her to have the ledge. The goal is to time your standup animation so that sheik will be edgehogged if she tries to go for the ledge (much easier when your damage is over 100%, as your standup animation has a much longer duration), and you will be able to hit her back offstage if she tries to up-B straight up and fall to the ledge.

    If Sheik is even closer (any closer and taking the edge wouldn't be beneficial), to the point where the first part of her up-B (before she vanishes) puts her ON the stage, she has 2 basic options. She can up-B straight down to the stage, or she can up-B toward the center of the stage. In this scenario, you don't have to burn your getup move. You should be able to determine whether or not you are in danger of being hit by her up-B. Typically in this situation you will be fine, and you can ledgehop instead of do a getup move. If sheik up-B's straight down, ledgehop grab. If she up-B's toward the center of the stage, ledgedash (ledgehop > waveland) > grab. You should have enough time since you have to pause before you grab Sheik anyway.

    The final catch to edgeguarding shiek, is that sometimes she can land on a lower platform instead of ground level (typically on YS and BF). If you feel that she will go for the platform, just ledgehop (or standup if you think her up-B might hit you) and bair her back offstage. If she is at killing% then feel free to dair or fair instead.



    vs Falcon

    Edgeguarding Falcon is very similar to edgeguarding other Ganons, with a few differences (see vs Ganon for more info; a lot of it applies to Falcon). Again, if you are good with the WF spike, you should use it every time you feel confident you can hit Falcon and make it back. Reverse uair is an excellent edgeguard in this matchup, and thanks to Falcon's weight and fallspeed, usually all you have to do is edgehog for a KO after landing it (personally I love to reverse uair spike and then dair for extra disrespect). The only time the Tipman spike isn't guaranteed to work vs Falcon onstage is when he is recovering from the side, where he up-B's for maximum distance and attempts to fall to the ledge/stage. Here you could use a WF spike or any aerial to keep him offstage (bair is a great choice here). You may have to hit him a few times to kill him if he has good DI, so just be patient and don't commit too early.

    When Falcon is recovering from above/the side, he often has the choice of either landing onstage or taking the ledge. Most Falcons will attempt to mindgame you into thinking that they are going to hold toward the middle of the stage for maximum distance, and if they can get you to move a step or 2 away from the ledge they will retreat at the last second and grab the ledge (after all, grabbing the ledge is safer than allowing your opponent to punish you in your up-B landing lag). The best way to deal with this is not to make any decisions too early. Usually you can fake the Falcon out by walking away from the ledge and wavedashing back, and sometimes all you have to do is stand near the ledge (because a lot of times they have already made up their mind that they are going to try to take the ledge) and bair them back offstage when they get close.

    Just as Ganon uses the wizard's foot spike to help him recover, occasionally a Falcon will use his Falcon kick to recover when he is sent into the high corner of the stage. Although you won't see this used as often since the Falcon kick causes Falcon to lose so much altitude, you must watch out for it. If he uses it too close to the stage, jump out and bair or fair him before the move ends. He won't be coming back. If Falcon tries to up-B onto the stage in hopes of grabbing you with the Falcon dive, space a bair to knock him back offstage and you'll be fine.

    Another great edgeguard on Falcon is dropzone uair. The uair covers a broad range of Falcon's options when he is close to the ledge and about to jump or up-B (Example 1) (Example 2). Other dropzone aerials can be very effective, but they are a tad more situational than the uair.



    vs Fox/Falco

    Any time you knock Fox or Falco offstage they should be dead. Generally you want to stay on the stage unless they up-B too close (spacies that are used to the matchup hardly ever do this). If at any point you know you can hit fox or falco out of their up-B before they take flight, do it immediately. If you are a tad late, it's still possible to cover more than 1 option by fastfalling a fair in front of them; this is very situational and you must be able to cover the option of them trying to up-B over you and grab the ledge (Example). On stage, your best edgeguards are reverse uair, bair, and downward angled ftilt. It is important to note that only the reverse uair will hit sweetspotters (notably frame 16 of the uair shown in the diagram at the top, which has massive priority at the tip of Ganon's toe and will not trade hits with firefox/firebird).

    If they are coming from underneath the stage and you know the up-B will overshoot, bair is a great option for its priority and duration of its hitbox. Make sure to wait until they are just above the stage so they can't tech. You can also fair or even dair them as soon as they land if you know it will kill. Dair at the edge is also an option, especially if you don't have enough time to reverse uair and you're not sure if they up-B will overshoot or not - just be prepared for them to meteor cancel/ledgetech. If you fully space the dair so that only the bottom of Ganon's foot hits the up-B, you shouldn't trade hits, and if you l-cancel you should be able to follow up if they survive. Lots of spacies like to walltech and go straight to up-B; make sure you bair/fair them immediately if they do this. They might also try to sweetspot with a phantasm/illusion after a walltech (rarely), just reverse uair or downward angled ftilt. If they do a normal tech you're back where you started and they have more damage.

    If they are even with the stage (right at ground level), you must be ready for a phantasm/illusion attempt. I've found that the best way to cover this is with reverse uair. Not only will it hit them if they are about to sweetspot, but if they choose to up-B instead, you will have time to punish that as well (downward angled ftilt is great here). If you don't have enough time to turn around, use downward angled ftilt (which at least forces them to sweetspot perfectly). The reverse uair may not always kill (especially on Fox), but if nothing else it should set you up for an easy edgeguard. (Example) Here Linguini executes the reverse uair edgeguard on a sweetspotter perfectly. An immediate dropzone dair followup would have ensured Falco's death (I call this the "ACE guard", for Falco only).

    If they up-B above the stage, additional variables come into play. Depending on their position they may have the option of going for the ledge (downward/diagonally for sweetspot). You should be able to recognize whether this is possible or not immediately, and be able to choose the right edgeguard. If you think they will go for the ledge, you can cover this with downward angled ftilt (you might have to take a half step forward from your usual stance to hit him) or a well timed reverse uair. If you think they are going to come straight at you (it's your job to teach them that this is a big mistake vs Ganon), you can use jab or one of your 3 ftilts (usually down angled), based on their height (note that it is pretty tough to jab the up-B without trading hits). This way, if they choose to go up at all and avoid you, you will have time to punish them as none of these moves have massive cooldown time (unlike a retreating fair, which is still a good option if when you think they will be coming right at you).

    Sometimes spacies will simply side-B onto the stage in hopes that they will hit you, or that you will make a move too soon and won't be able to punish them. This usually happens when they have plenty of room to make it back, but not enough to dj to the edge. Despite the landing lag of the side-b, they can still combo you if you are hit by it, so you do not want to let this happen. It's important that you focus on your opponent so you will know as soon as they make their move. Jab and down angled ftilt are great against illusion/phantasm, as is bair. Reverse uair can also be good as well, but despite the broad range it covers it requires a bit more precision against a move this fast. If you jab or ftilt Fox or Falco out of their side-b, they're basically dead. After a jab you get an easy dair or fair, and after a ftilt or bair you can usually edgehog for the KO.



    vs DK

    Edgeguarding DK isn't always a piece of cake. Luckily, DK has a relatively linear recovery and the vertical distance of his up-B is garbage. DK is a big target and is always vulnerable just before he grabs the ledge. With that said, if you aren't familiar with this matchup you'd be surprised at how quickly DK can gimp Ganon with his up-B or a quick bair, so be very careful when you attempt to edgeguard him offstage. His up-B has a ton of small hitboxes that can often override/trade hits with any attack that isn't spaced properly. Its lack of vertical distance, however, makes Ganon's stomp a great edgeguarding tool for when DK is recovering below the stage (if he is higher than the stage, he can still meteor cancel and survive if he's quick enough). The 2 most important things to remember when using dair to edgeguard DK are 1) if possible, try to dair DK offstage before he gets close enough to tech, and 2) make sure you fully space the dair on his up-B so that the only part of Ganon touching DK is the bottom of his foot. If the dair is not fully spaced and timed correctly, you will be hit by DK's up-B offstage, and he will most likely have the edge.

    Reverse uair, as you would think, is a great edgeguard against DK. One of the best things about using the Tipman spike on DK is how safe it is, as there is no need for you to leave the stage. With regard to both safety and effectiveness, this is Ganon's best overall option. When timed properly the reverse uair should beat DK virtually every time. After you land the hit, DK will up-B ASAP. At this point you have several options. If you see an edgehog opportunity, take it quickly. If you don't have enough time, you can reverse uair spike him again, dair him if you have time and he's below the stage (I prefer this when possible, great way to finish him quickly), or bair him if he is at low/med% and happens to overshoot the ledge.

    It's important to know that DK's up-B has enough horizontal aerial mobility to mindgame you into doing the reverse uair too soon, so that he can grab the ledge. Be patient and wait until he goes to grab the ledge, his up-B doesn't last forever. If you fall for it and jump too soon (and he's not at low%) you can usually hold backwards offstage and still fastfall reverse uair him, which should secure the KO (be ready to jump and up-B immediately to make it back). It's also important to know that it's easier for DK to tech the reverse uair that most other characters, due to the size of his up-B and how he grabs the ledge (Example). Be ready to bair him or reverse uair him again if he manages to pull it off.

    *If at any point DK decides to up-B early, above the stage, fully space a retreating bair or fair to knock him back offstage. Bair is easier to land without trading hits with the up-B, but either way should prevent him from getting by/through you and keep him offstage. If he's coming in fast and you don't have enough time, ftilt will usually suffice.

    Lastly, a few words on the Wizard's Foot spike. As you would think, the WF spike has the potential to absolutely murder DK offstage at any %. The only problem is the difficulty in spacing the WF so that your hitbox actually connects (no matter how good you are with it, it's not 100% reliable). The small hitboxes covering DK's upper half during his up-B are fully capable of beating the WF if you don't hit him in the right spot (your best bet is going for his head, or just in front of his head, aka the center of his up-B), and it's not always easy. If you are able to knock DK offstage at low%, it may be worth going for the WF spike for a quick KO (there are other ways of killing him of course, but this could be your chance to take the stock very quickly). Otherwise, play it safe and reverse uair/bair him back offstage. *In the event that DK is far away from the stage and must jump and up-B for maximum distance in order to survive (recovering from above/the side), the WF spike (before he gets to the ledge) is perfect.



    vs Doc/Mario

    brought to you by Dogysamich

    Edgeguarding a Mario/Doc with Ganon.

    Goal: You're pretty much looking for him to do something completely in your range, and then you go in and blast him for it. If you cant get out and hit him, he probably cant make it to the ledge if you're holding it.

    Worst case scenario: You want to force them to up+b on the stage. Although they'll have their jumps back, the up+b is horribly punishable, preferably sending them back off to start the whole process again.

    -It's not exactly the hardest thing for you to do, as scary as his recovery may look (and to some people, they are somehow terrified of a mario/doc recovery), it's actually just a bunch of lies.


    1) Projectiles (Fireballs/Pills)

    -A vast majority of Mario/Doc players will throw their projectile and come in straight behind it. If it's in your range, you destroy this free. U.air through, b.air through, if you wanna troll you can do a down-b from the stage in a line. Their main objective by throwing projectiles is to either keep you from coming out (in which case they WILL still be going towards the stage), or to make you move*.

    -*If they're looking to make you move, this is what you have to be careful of. At this point and time, smart mario/docs might pull back so that you CANT go hit them. At this point, all you're looking to do is hold the ground and deal with the projectile. (Hold your ground might be keep your position on stage, or keep yourself on the ledge.

    -If you're on the ledge, look for them to throw pills and continue coming in. If you see this, ledgedrop -> dj -> b.air. That's like, the Mario/Doc killer. Or the retard killed atleast. I think I'ma dub this the Dogy slayer. XD


    2) Tornado

    -If it's in range, destroy it. Mario/Doc has absolutely NO reason to do this if you can come hit them.

    -If they do it under the stage to make you move from the ledge, all you have to do is move and then go back. As long as you don't roll or do a >100% getup, you can make it back before they do. (Don't quote me on this cause I don't know ganon like the back of my hand, but i'm pretty sure you could just jump from the like (like, your actual ledge jump), and make it back before Mario/Doc can up+b to the ledge)


    3) Floating back

    -You have to throw a little (read, a VERY little) caution to a Mario/Doc who's just floating back to the stage. At this point, you'll run into two problems, those being~~


    a) Mario/Doc hanging out a variety of aerials. The only one that really would cause you any problem is a d.air, as it eats through your moves if you space incorrectly. Spacing correctly leads to, at worst, a trade. Trades are good for you at this point cause you take like, 4% (OMG OW), and they die. High five, go flash tech and get ready for the next stock.

    b) Cape. Here's the thing about cape, though, it only works if YOU (Ganon) "space correctly". Think about it, it only flips your character around, it doesn't change you momentum, so if you were going to jump through him and he capes, you'll STILL JUMP THROUGH HIM, you'll just be facing backwards.

    tl;dr, if you expect him to cape you when you get out there, jump past him and like, b.air or u.air or something like that.
    4) Up+b

    You don't wanna be off the stage trying to stop this, simply because you're liable to get up+b spiked if you're below the stage. Ledge or stage, those are your two options. If you want style points, you can try a d.air (if you're like, tryin to get back), but i mean, he's gunna meteor.

    yeah, magnet hands, blah blah, but if you're on stage, try to do a SF f.air (not SHFFL, straight SH f.air). Ya know, the one where the hitbox goes below the stage? That's a real safe honesty check on Mario/Doc's sweetspoting.

    If you can't do it, the other fail-safe move is to just hold the **** ledge. Like, holding the ledge slays Doc's recovery, and make Mario beg for walls so he can have false hope and all that. Get the ledge, hold the inv, let em get back, put em back off.

    I mean, you can even style on em and do like, waveland -> turnaround down+b and punt 'em back off.

    That's like, basically what you need to know.

    If all else fails, just go with Plan X. Plan X = reverse u.air. You literally could do it for EVERY situation in this, and well, it sends them down, aaaaaaaaaand down sucks for mario/doc. Sooooooo yeah.

    **Special thanks to Dogy for the writeup.




    vs Luigi

    It's well known that the green plumber can be gimped pretty badly at times, but a good Luigi won't let you get away with it very easily. Luigi has quite a simplistic recovery style once you familiarize yourself with his options. As always, it's important that you pay attention to your opponent so that you know whether he has used his jump or not before you hit him offstage or during his recovery. In addition, it is just as important to be aware of whether or not Luigi has charged his down-B; such information is vital to determining which edgeguard will be the most effective (remember, it's where the down-B ends that counts; the luigi can start the down-B in the air, and as long as most of it (magus?) ends on the ground, it will be "charged" and he will have the ability to use it and gain height/mindgame you while recovering). **If you ever have an opportunity to dair a Luigi (that has already used his jump) when he is away from the stage, seize it immediately; this will ensure a KO.

    A major element of Luigi's recovery is his side-b. Lots of Luigis like to use their side-b first when they are knocked far away from the stage (unless they are hit so hard that they are extremely close to dying off the side, in which case they must jump or die). This way, they simply bring themselves closer to the stage without wasting their jump or down-B (and if they have good survival DI, they can afford to lose some height). They may even use this move 2 or even 3 times on some stages (DL64). It's your job to jump out and fair (range, knockback) or reverse uair (its downward trajectory rapes luigi) Luigi whenever he uses his side-b too close to the stage (bair is OK if you know you will get the KO, but if not, it really just adds some damage and gives Luigi a brand new chance at recovering if he DI's it well). Once you get used to edgeguarding Luigis you will know whether or not you have enough time to hit him (again good luigis won't make this easy - they will try to side-b just close enough so that you are tempted to go out and punish when it may not be safe). It's imperative that you hit Luigi before the side-b animation ends, so that he can't jump out or hit you.

    When Luigi has his down-B charged, his recovery is actually pretty good. Not only can luigi recover from almost dying at the bottom of the screen, but he can also mindgame you into making a decision too early which ultimately leads to his safe recovery. Just like with the side-b, if luigi uses his down-B close to the stage, go out and punch him before the animation ends. Lots of players often go to edgehog luigi (thinking that all he can do is up-B), and as they roll from the ledge, luigi stalls with down-b and safely up-b's to the ledge afterward. As if missing out on a KO opportunity isn't bad enough, luigi also has a lot of fast and effective options from the ledge, so you don't want to make this mistake.

    Luigis also like to use the side-b when they are close in, but not close enough to up-B to the ledge (because of how limited his options are regarding his up-b). By this, I mean they side-B directly into the wall, which slows their fallspeed and puts them just under the ledge so that they can up-B and take it. At this point, if down-b is not an option (if they haven't charged it), wavedash and fastfall to the edge for an easy edgehog. If you think he's going to stall with his down-b, ledgehop uair onto the stage (preferably invincible). If you do this correctly, you put yourself in a safe position as well as cover the option of his up-b. If he DOES down-b, you should have enough time to either get back to ledge or at least stomp his up-b attempt following the tornado. Also, keep in mind that you must ALWAYS be ready for that nasty misfire. I personally can't stand it when Luigi is offstage and gets a random misfire that sends his opponent into orbit. This should never happen. Be ready for that BS and fair him back to Italy.

    If you know that luigi is going to be sweetspotting (or close to it), go for the tipman spike. A well-timed stomp usually does the trick as well, but always be ready for luigi to tech (of course, he can meteor cancel as well, but it's not super easy). If you fully space the stomp you won't trade hits (stomp is really only viable when luigi is close to sweetspotting), and if you L-cancel you will be able to follow up. If he walltechs, stomp or punch him out of his side-b. If he does a normal ledgetech, go for a bair or a reverse uair spike when he uses his up-b.

    Lastly, whenever Luigi is rocoverying from below, invincible ledgedrop uair is golden. It usually takes them by surprise, and there is no way that he can stage spike you or recover. You can also reverse ledgedash (RLD) into a uair, or even RLD and dj uair for more range. It's riskier but not many people expect this.

    **BONUS INFO from Linguini; I've tried this and it works, partially because like I said before, even good luigi's aren't always accostomed to being forced to sweetspot the edge.




    vs Peach

    Reverse uair is still all you need, but you can't tipman spike peach the same way you do other characters. You have to 1) wait until her up-b reaches max height before you contest it (requires brief pause), or 2) use only frame 16 (the last frame of uair hitbox- the tippy toe-- and space it like a SURGEON) of the tipman spike like a baller and beat her up-b. Then grab ledge. It helps if you take an extra 1/4 step away from the ledge, making the hitbox you desire hit like a tipper, both vertically AND horizontally.

    Because of peach's recovery, bair is a slightly worse edgeguarding tool than it usually is (comparatively speaking). Non-lethal bairs give her a ton of recovery options and can even lead to neutral game being reset. Non-lethal uairs uairs are lethal. Lol. With that said, it can still be the best bet sometimes due to its speed and disjoint at Ganon's fist.

    Stomp isn't bad since it forces peach to perform a very fast meteor cancel or die, but stomps have to spaced extremely well. Don't watch Renth vs Moltov and think it's easy. It works best when you read that they will fastfall to the ledge.

    One of the biggest things is not giving her the ledge for free (that sounds retarded but really). Don't let her mindgame you into doing something too soon. Don't get fair'd. Remember, she's either
    1. Going for ledge
    2. Trying to land on stage near the ledge
    3. Attacking you (fair)
    or
    4. Floating completely over you
    5. Airdodge through you

    She's normally going for ledge, but be ready for the airdodge. Know the capabilities of your uair/bair and just be safer than her. When you bait the airdodge, you can grab her (best) or aerial, or anything that could kill given her %. You can even dsmash and kill her with the second hit when you read it. Her aerial movement can be fakey but she has waaaaaay less options than a grounded Ganon so no excuses. Don't over commit, wait until she does.

    When she's up-b'ing back, and you're on ledge, you can ledgehop uair regrab (light a cigar and say "bodayyyyd" when you land that) for the insta-edgehog, or RLD dj uair. Any time you hit her with a uair it's worth it. Then just grab ledge.

    Spacing WF spike vs peach is just too hard, forget it (against good peaches). It can always work if it hits her dress while floating, and it will almost always be beaten during the startup frames of her up-b. It will rarely trade with the open umbrella also. This, and too much risk involved.

    =============================================

    Feel free to comment/ask something.
     
    #1 -ACE-, Feb 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2015
    Bacon233 and TidalWave like this.
  2. Linguini

    Linguini
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    alot of useful **** in here, read most of it but ill finish it tom. thanks alot man.
     
  3. Lordydennek

    Lordydennek
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    Smash Ace

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    Marth, Peach, Spacies, Sheik, mario bros, Samus and the rest. I like all the info on the WF. I didnt know a lot of that stuff!
     
  4. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Another beastly thread made by Ace. =D I'll help too.
     
  5. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Thanks guys. I'll be adding stuff and correcting any mistakes that I find. Feel free to ask any questions or whatever. I already have rough draft writeups (kinda like this one) completed for Sheik, Fox/Falco, Falcon, DK, Marth, and Doc. So if we do some of those next It'll be easier lol
     
  6. *P*L*U*R*

    *P*L*U*R*
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    Dave, why aren't you the best Ganon in the world yet?
     
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  7. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    He chokes. :p Just like me, but yeah, I think the next one should be Marth.
     
  8. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    What? Haven't you heard?

    LOL. Jason's right. I'm still working out the last kinks in my tourney nervousness haha
     
  9. Dr. Hyde

    Dr. Hyde
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    Nice read, any information on when and where the WF hitbox is would be helpful, I want to try and use it to hit the opponent while landing on the stage, I'm pretty sure there's a small hit box on it but it I've spiked some people with it before they got to the ledge with it while landing on the stage.
    I just have no way of seeing the actual hit box of the WF unless it's the purple stuff, lol. I thought I was the only one who loved using the WF for Spikes but I'm glad I'm wrong
     
  10. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    [​IMG]

    The diagram doesn't do that great of a job of highlighting the hitbox, but as far as aiming it, just try to hit your opponent with Ganon's foot. It's not that hard, since you can usually hit them with any part of his lower body and still get the spike.

    As far as using it onstage like you mentioned:
    + it surprises people
    + they can't meteor cancel
    + you never have to leave the stage
    - they can ledge tech and survive since they'd be right next to the stage
    - massive cooldown time (so if you miss or they tech, you get punished)
    - it's hard to hit this consistently on some characters
     
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  11. Bl@ckChris

    Bl@ckChris
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    ah, i was hoping this was what that text/IM was about. lol i was gonna say something about predicting the other ganons WF, but then i read it. sometimes i go out there too late and i just get uair smacked back to the stage lol. i need to work on that when it comes to knowing when i can get there, and when i should be there.

    maybe i should start trying to moonwalk jump out there...jason i wanna see this. some time :p
     
  12. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Well yeah believe it or not, the added moonwalks coupled with the perfect wavelands actually propels Ganon a bit further and gives lets him further off the stage (while keeping his double jump I might add) and allows him to come back a little easier. Kinda hard for me to explain. That's the only accessible situational application moonwalking has for Ganon. I've done a gotten a few reverse tippers that normally would have been a bit harder to do and it shaves off a bit of time. (I.E turning around..running to the legde, turning around then preparing for the tipper spike)
     
  13. Koskinator

    Koskinator
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    another pretty sweet move is like
    stomp > uair off stage
    if they meteor cancel they get hit by the uair neway
    gg
     
  14. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    updated with some marth stuff, this one's not as easy as dittos so feel free to discuss whatever
     
  15. RestInPeace

    RestInPeace
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    Against Marth, you said they will normally Fair your lightshield if possible to put you on the ledge, but the people I play against will Nair, since the first part hits you out of your shield, and the second one will hit you. Then they land on the stage and you're in a bad position in the air.
     
  16. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Thanks for pointing that out RIP. I'll edit that part some. That part of the paragraph was pointing out what happens when you use the lightshield edghog TOO SOON, aka I wouldn't recommend using it if your opponent had his jump and wasn't very far from the stage.

    fixed.

    Edit: Added some Sheik stuff. I'll cool it for a while now so people can read up and ask/talk about any of the 3 characters covered.
     
  17. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    F*** them wack a**, dirty a**, 1942-lookin a** hitboxes.

    That is all. :laugh::laugh:
     
  18. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    How Much things cost in 1942:
    Average Cost of new house $3,770.00
    Average wages per year $1,880.00
    Cost of a gallon of Gas 15 cents
    Average Cost for house rent $35.00 per month
    Bottle Coca Cola 5 cents
    Average Price for a new car $920.00
    Wack a**, dirty a** hitboxes... priceless.

    Edit: I put up some stuff for Falcon. A lot of the edgeguarding tactics discussed in the "vs Ganon" section also applies to Falcon as their recoveries are so similar.
     
  19. Gardevior

    Gardevior
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    Great thread, ACE. Can't wait until you get stuff up for Peach and Doc.
     
  20. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Don't forget that when Falcon or Ganon down b, and they're trying to come from up under the stage; a run off uair is really good for high knock back and severely limiting their options for a safe return.
     
  21. Dr. Hyde

    Dr. Hyde
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    Thanks much, I got a chance to smash some with friends and I enjoyed wrecking Falcon. I kinda had more fun just forward tilting him to death, demeaning and humbling works to hurt them psychologically.

    I loved using the Down+B as a stage edge guard but I'm having a little trouble nailing it on the stage. I got it some times and it was awesome but when I misses I got ledge hop kneed.
    :/
    Kinda drives the point home of hit or die.

    I love the guide keep it up. I lost a few friendlies which I was taking easily because I had too much fun and tried to Down + B Falcos off the side, lol. However Down+B while grounded works very well as an edge guard vs. my friends doing Forward+B with Fox and Falco. If they aren't sure and miss they die but then again I miss I die.

    :/

    I guess I'll get better if I just stop trying these 50/50 edge guards and go for wins but I like style.

    EDIT:
    Not that I can do it but can you moonwalk->full jump -> Down+B? That way you get anyone hugging the stage and can still recover.
     
  22. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Agreed, I talked about dropzone uair against Falcon. It's a bit more situational vs Ganon but still effective in some situations, like the one you described.

    Pretty much this. It happens to me too man, I love getting creative and doing high risk edgeguards it's so fun. Once you get really technical sometimes it's like you can't help but do some flashy extravagant edgeguard lol. When it comes to tournies and MM's you gotta be all business though.

    You can, and I've done it. However I don't see it as something you could rely on, and I couldn't even begin to tell you what situations it works best for.
     
  23. Dr. Hyde

    Dr. Hyde
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    Yeah I'm believing I'll do that more so I can be take more seriously.

    I meant it as a possible edgeguard vs. Marth and pretty much any other character that likes to hug the edge of stages like FD to sweet spot. Again, style not necessarily effective.
     
  24. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    It's funny you mention that Dr. Hyde, because one of the few situations where I've actually purposely used the reverse WF spike was against sweetspotting Marths lol.

    Added some Fox/Falco stuff. Edgeguarding spacies is more complicated than most people make it out to be (especially at top level play), so I expect some discussion!
     
  25. Dr. Hyde

    Dr. Hyde
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    Against Marths did it work? Were they able to tech at all?

    And as for the spacies I like the section, I feel D+B is a good guard against them (I'm not trying to use D+B as much as possible but I just think it would be a good Edge Guard.) If the wait and you anticipated in correctly and they are waiting they start the UP+B and you are now near or sliding off the ledge which is perfect to just UP AIR, I think it's the safest option for an edge guard and to recover.
     
  26. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    I've only used it a few times, and they didn't tech, but they could have most of the time. I never use it in tournament.

    Down-B from the stage is only good if they are at least at med/high% and they illusion just above stage level. If you miss, you die. The WF also has surprisingly little knockback when your opponent DI's it correctly, so if they are at low/med% they can make it back, and you die. Reverse uair, bair, and down-angled ftilt are all more effective and a lot less risky since you can miss and usually not be punished... and you never have to leave the stage.
     
  27. Bl@ckChris

    Bl@ckChris
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    does down angled ftilt hit ganon/falcon if they try to sweetspot at all? i noticed spacies have to do sweetspot perfectly to avoid it, but it seems like ganon and falcon don't really have to do much to stay out of its range.

    am i doing it wrong, or does it have to do with the way their hurtbox is when they roll at the end of the upB?
     
  28. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    I don't think it's guaranteed, neither Ganon nor Falcon can truly sweetspot the edge but I'm still not sure that the ftilt goes low enough. It's a decent choice if you don't have time to turn around and use the tipman spike, though.
     
  29. Doromac

    Doromac
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    Finally got the chance to read up. Good guide. What do you think of using regular uairs instead of Tipman as an edgeguard?
     
  30. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Thanks man. The best thing about a normal uair is that it has a quick hitbox right in front of Ganon (uair's hitbox comes out on frame 6, nair on 7, bair on 10, fair on 14, and dair on 16). It can work as a general way to knock your opponent back offstage, but obviously fair and bair have much more knockback. The tipman spike, on the other hand, hits sweetspotters, is very difficult to tech for most characters, covers a broad range of your opponent's recovery options, and semi-spikes. As far as usefulness in edgeguarding it's pretty hard to compare the two.
     
  31. Doromac

    Doromac
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    Yea. I usually use a uair instead of a fair because it comes out quicker, and I tipman a lot anyways. Thanks man.
     
  32. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Added some stuff for DK.

    Linguini/RockCrock, or Kage/PKM, feel free to point out any changes that think should be made. I haven't played any top-level DK's (partially because there aren't many) but I'm pretty familiar with the matchup and still feel I have a solid grasp on the basics.
     
  33. spider_sense

    spider_sense
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    Just aim the reverse tipper at the little turd that DK has growing out of his head.
     
  34. Magus420

    Magus420
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    The hitboxes get smaller on his arms, the one on his body disappears, and he also loses invincibility on his arms in the later part of the up-b which makes it a lot easier to him out of it then.

    [​IMG]
     
  35. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Thanks Magus, I almost added that it was easier at the latter half of the up-B, but I didn't know exactly why lol. That was much appreciated.
     
  36. Эикельманн [РУС]

    Ей 22. Она красивая, стройная леди.

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  37. Dr. Hyde

    Dr. Hyde
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    Edgeguarding Jiggs is probably the worst thing you can do in the match up.

    Unless it's going to time and they are floating around and stalling in the air I see no reason to edge guard let them come on stage and get a kill.
     
  38. Bl@ckChris

    Bl@ckChris
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    that...might be a little of an overstatement. if its possible to find a bair after a side b or fair of jiggs, then i'd say by all means hit with it. simply going back to the middle of the stage to let her come back is just too easy for her. i'd say going off stage is certainly a bad idea, but building a bair wall at the edge of the stage, including once she takes the edge, seems like a smart way to do it.

    also, if you can come from under her, an uair may be useful. just as long as you don't leave yourself open to get fastfalled into a fair and then maybe...other jiggs stuff.

    as said in the OP...bair is awesome.
     
  39. -ACE-

    -ACE-
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    Gotem City Vigilante

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    Yep.. truth be told, edgeguarding Jiggs isn't that much different than playing her onstage. You'll hardly ever get an opportunity to "gimp" jiggs like you would gimp most other characters; you basically just keep hitting her until she dies lol. If you can read her next move/jump, punish with a bair or uair like chris said. You won't be landing many fairs or dairs on good jiggs players. Try to keep moving and keep her guessing.

    I don't think I could do a solid write up on Jiggs lol, but I plan on covering Doc, Peach, and a few other matchups before I'm done with this.
     
  40. MD.Dude

    MD.Dude
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    if they are returning from an attack then i prefer upair.. Fair if i set up with a grab
     

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