Q&A Gameplay Q&A and General Discussion Thread

[Lavani]

Re: Pac-Man, it's maybe worth noting that hydrants can be countered even when they're just sitting on the ground. For some reason hydrants constantly put out 0% hits, so while it's a minimum strength counter...it's still Corrin's massive, invincible counter, in a situation where an opponent may not expect it.

 

[Gemba Board]

Re: Pac-Man, it's maybe worth noting that hydrants can be countered even when they're just sitting on the ground. For some reason hydrants constantly put out 0% hits, so while it's a minimum strength counter...it's still Corrin's massive, invincible counter, in a situation where an opponent may not expect it.

Wait so I can be standing on it or right next to it and instantly have my counter triggered when I use it?

 

[ARGHETH]

Wait so I can be standing on it or right next to it and instantly have my counter triggered when I use it?

Yep. Try it; it works.

 

[Lavani]

Wait so I can be standing on it or right next to it and instantly have my counter triggered when I use it?

Yep.

Something I hadn't considered or looked into; if the hydrant sprays upward afterward, that could be usable to counter>uair for kills at like 50%

I'm not sure how practical that is or if it even true combos, but it might be worth looking into for the one time the stars align and you get to go for ultimate style points.

 

[gridatttack]

Hmmm, does anyone has an idea on how big is the Hitbox of Dair landing?

I saw it hit an opponent who started jumping towards me and it looked a bit far from what it seems.

Not even the ones like Falco's or Pika are like this IIRC.

 

[Gemba Board]

So yesterday I was fooling around with DL pin jump. You get a knockdown but the jump takes you too high up and the FAF is a wopping 44 frames. I can't seem to find any utility for it. I would always look at the pin jump and think "we didn't get any kick damage, but I bet we could get some sweet okizeme". Anyone else see reset potential here? Sometimes on certain stages, I like to pin to the side wall below the ledge of the stage and pin jump to recover. Or maybe this is what everyone uses to stay safe against characters like sonic who can punish pin kick? What are your thoughts on pin jump?

 

[ARGHETH]

Hmmm, does anyone has an idea on how big is the Hitbox of Dair landing?

I saw it hit an opponent who started jumping towards me and it looked a bit far from what it seems.

Not even the ones like Falco's or Pika are like this IIRC.

It seems like it's about a character length away; slightly larger than Pikachu's.

 

[Skitrel]

Well, fastfalling increases fall speed by 60% (for Corrin, it's 1.65 --> 2.64), so I think it should be FF FH: 22 frames and FF SH: ~15 frames.

I've been looking at this for a while trying to work out why it feels incorrect...

I think the error here is assuming that fallspeed applies to a reduction in the total frames including the rising portion of the airtime. I see a few ways to calculate this, but the core of it is that fastfall shouldn't be applied to the rising part.

Shorthop(half) is 18.5
60% of 18.5 is 11.1

18.5(rising) + 11.1 (fastfalling) = 29.6

That comes out to:
SH - 37
FH - 55
SHFF - 29.6 frames (I assume this rounds to 30frames)
FHFF - 44 frames

I'm fairly confident that these are correct because they correlate with some interesting autocancel numbers Corrin has. To jog people's memories and make it easier for reference here are her aerial autocancels:

Nair autocancel - Frame 50>
Fair Autocancel - Frame 30>
Bair autocancel - Frame 42>
Uair autocancel - Frame 40>
Dair autocancel - Frame 41> (not useful)

It's probably also useful noting FAF numbers alongside as they allow you to throw another move before the autocancel, this allows using the startup autocancel numbers (best being fair frames 1-6).

Nair FaF - Frame 47
Fair FAF - Frame 36
Bair FAF - Frame 42
Uair FAF - Frame 38
Dair FAF - Frame 52

Might as well throw our other aerial here too:

Dragon Lunge FAF - 42

I think the interesting numbers here to take into mind are Dragon Lunge FAF compared to FHFF, Bair and Uair autocancels also compared to FHFF, and that all aerials will give Corrin landing lag if performed with a SHFF except fair. This suggests to me that a Corrin SH spacing in the neutral should probably be using fair and not nair when Corrins do not know if they might whiff.

I'd be interested in other takes on looking at things in this manner. I know 13frames of landing lag isn't a lot, but it's telegraphed and opponents can time around the telegraphing pretty well. I've seen Falcon and Sonic notably punishing Corrins that aren't using their autocancels by dashgrabbing as they land.

Autocancelling fair with SHFF on shield could also allow a Corrin to hit shield, land and follow up with a IP with as little as 4 frames of hard landing lag.

 

[ARGHETH]

I've been looking at this for a while trying to work out why it feels incorrect...

I think the error here is assuming that fallspeed applies to a reduction in the total frames including the rising portion of the airtime. I see a few ways to calculate this, but the core of it is that fastfall shouldn't be applied to the rising part.

Right, total frames. Whoops.

 

[Skitrel]

Right, total frames. Whoops.

Don't worry about it. I'm not 100% on whether my method is correct either. It assumes that we rise at the same speed that we fall which could be incorrect.

By the looks of it we can be off by 2-5 frames in a lot of cases while still hitting FAF windows. So the variance in slightly different methods may not matter at this point.

Fair>IP>FKick does a massive 26.5 shield damage. That's a shield break if performed immediately after an fsmash (without tipper) for a total of 42 damage (shields have 42hp) It's also a very high amount of pressure to put on shield if performed after a bair on shield, the total there would be 38damage.

 

[Gemba Board]

Anyone know if ledge trump > ledge jump > rising DL is true or not? I won a few matches in tournament doing this and it seems true but Idk if anyone tried airdodging. When you do it, they are trumped into the air exactly where tipper DL would hit. I've killed from a trumped tipper from as low as 68%. I currently don't have my console with me to test this myself.

In case it's not true, it would be great for us to force an airdodge from that position. From here, we can cover the regrab with a well spaced fsmash. I feel like the DL isn't true though so the fsmash might be what seals the deal.

(Edit: woot, first 100 posts)

 

[Skitrel]

Anyone know if ledge trump > ledge jump > rising DL is true or not? I won a few matches in tournament doing this and it seems true but Idk if anyone tried airdodging. When you do it, they are trumped into the air exactly where tipper DL would hit. I've killed from a trumped tipper from as low as 68%. I currently don't have my console with me to test this myself.

In case it's not true, it would be great for us to force an airdodge from that position. From here, we can cover the regrab with a well spaced fsmash. I feel like the DL isn't true though so the fsmash might be what seals the deal.

(Edit: woot, first 100 posts)

Pretty sure it's not Gemba. You're doing ledge jump which is super laggy and not quick enough. Typical ledge trump combos have you release the ledge, jump, then input move. We've got trump>bair from this method but the timing is going to take practice. Fortunately this is one of those things you can practice in training mode pretty easily by trumping the CPU.

The trick to getting more time is this - Ledge grab gives 20frames of lag. Trump occurs on frame 21 when their ledgegrab lag ends. You want to initiate trump on the earliest frame of their ledge grab (frame 1) so that your 20 frames of ledgegrab lag ends sooner. If you trump at the end of their ledgegrab lag 10-20 then you're not going to get the combo and shouldn't try, you should getup and edgeguard.

The timing for Corrin's trump combo is so tight I don't particularly recommend it. It's easier to trump someone then cover the options they have after the trump. They must either recover onto stage or recover back to ledge without invincibility. Juggle them or IP their regrab for the kill.

 

[MegaFatcat100]

Here's a quick question, when I charge side smash and the charging hitbox comes out, people always manage to DI out of it, is there anything I can do to prevent this aside from not charging it as long?

 

[Lavani]

Adding on to what Skitrel said, different characters are trumped at different angles. I encouraged Zelda mains to look into this for ledge trump>sweetspot bair a year ago but I don't think they ever made a list. So even if it is ever real, it'd be character specific.

Here's a quick question, when I charge side smash and the charging hitbox comes out, people always manage to DI out of it, is there anything I can do to prevent this aside from not charging it as long?

Not charging as long is really the only option. It's meant to be easy to escape, otherwise it'd be easy full charged fsmashes.

 

[Skitrel]

Actually, Lavani brings up a good point. Trump>Bair does work better on some characters compared to others, now that I think about it I've also seen trump>uair work where bair wouldn't work.

Might be worthwhile testing this ourselves. At the very least I know trump>bair is easy to perform on Dedede and Bowser as I go for it vs them all the time as they're targets I'd like to take of the side blastzones sooner rather than later. They have a habit of surviving to high percents and become serious threats with single hits. DK I'm not sure of as I don't risk him turning around edgeguard situations as it gives him easy and terrifyingly painful grabs not to mention a scary dunk game.

Rest of the cast I have no real idea about. The smaller the target the more likely I am to not try and simply to trust juggles to end them.

Would you happen to know whether it's hardcoded for each character that they're trumped at specific angles or whether it's an angle that's set by their fallspeed/weight?

 

[Lavani]

Would you happen to know whether it's hardcoded for each character that they're trumped at specific angles or whether it's an angle that's set by their fallspeed/weight?

Hardcoded, there's no rhyme or reason to them.

 

[Skitrel]

Hardcoded, there's no rhyme or reason to them.

That's... Interesting.

Things like this always pique my interest a little because when they're done that way there is a reason for it. The devs don't willy-nilly just do stuff, they're aware of a whole bunch of clashes or issues that we're not aware of on top of having a different design perspective internally.

I wonder what their reasoning is. It's interesting that it would be hardcoded AND different for each character, that would indicate a character specific reason for each one.

The most obvious one that springs to mind would be that it's basd on horizontal aerial speed of the characters. Giving different characters a different angle based on how quick they are at returning to stage. If this theory is correct then the faster aerial speed characters would be sent out at a more flat angle whereas the slow aerial speed characters should go to a higher angle. This would ensure that the player who performs the ledge trump can actually perform their getup before the opposing player has DId or jumped back to the stage. I think this makes even more sense from a design standpoint as I don't think any characters can jump/DI past a trumping character to backair them.

This would also indicate that trumping as a mechanic from on stage was most certainly an action they intended for players to be performing as opposed to just being a natural outcome of various mechanics coming together.

Obviously just guessing. Another logical reason isn't readily springing to mind though.

 

[Lavani]

You'd think, but it really seems like they just rolled dice. Fox ejects super high, Falco ejects less high, Dedede Pikachu and Villager all eject low, etc.

Air grab releases are all unique too and vary a lot in both distance and height, but they don't correlate with ledge trump angles.

 

[Skitrel]

You'd think, but it really seems like they just rolled dice. Fox ejects super high, Falco ejects less high, Dedede Pikachu and Villager all eject low, etc.

Air grab releases are all unique too and vary a lot in both distance and height, but they don't correlate with ledge trump angles.

Well that's extra intriguing.

I wonder... Do footstools work during the 10frames of aerial release lag? 2v1 doubles aerial release>footstool>jab reset>grab strikes me as a setup unless they've also hardcoded against that working. I'm going a bit offtopic for Corrin there though.... But there are certainly ways for Corrin to abuse pin and grab with doubles partners.

I've got nothing. I assume they know what they're doing and after spending 8hours everyday in offices for years talking about and developing mechanics they know the extent of their effects in great detail. Whatever the reason for it is just going over the community's head right now.

I can't see an obvious pattern there though. You've got me. Perhaps it truly is random as an anti-cheese implementation for group gameplay so casual play isn't obviously predictable. Keeping 4players+ "fun" while also not hurting competitive play will have been part of their design goals, so it stands to reason some mechanical decisions will be aimed specifically at casual play. Hardcoded cool down on regrabs strikes me as an example of them using hardcoding elsewhere to avoid "cheese".

 

[Planty]

DK I'm not sure of as I don't risk him turning around edgeguard situations as it gives him easy and terrifyingly painful grabs not to mention a scary dunk game.

There really isn't a worse character at escaping the ledge than DK. Don't risk a ledge trump; stay on stage and cover his options by reaction.

 

[Empyrean]

Speaking of ledge options, what options do you guys use to safely get back on stage with Corrin whenever you're on the ledge? I don't know if it's a personal struggle (very likely, might be cuz of my melee falco roots) or character-related but I have a really hard time getting off the ledge vs players who reactively punish my options. I've pretty much lost an entire stock and got sent to losers bracket because the opponent (wario) trapped me on the ledge so effectively.

Afaik our options from the ledge are:
-ledge getup
-ledge roll
-ledge jump (followed by any aerial, fastest being at frame 6+)
-ledge getup-attack
-drop down > hop > DL to pin the stage
-drop down > hop > nair/fair to return onstage
-drop down > hop > airdodge back onstage (no landing lag, can even DL, dair or nair after the airdodge)

Any other options that you guys can think of? The characters that are good at ledgeguarding will typically cover many of these options at once, and i feel so severely limited whenever I'm facing them on the ledge. Ledge jump and the last one feel like the 2 safest options, but can easily become telegraphed and ledge jump in particular is still a horribly disadvantageous situation, although at least we have more control.

Now I know that we don't suffer on the ledge as bad as DK does (ledge is likely his worst matchup, poor thing) but I figured it'd be a good topic to discuss.

 

[Skitrel]

Don't forget lagless getup:

I've been using this quite a lot recently.

Instant getup>grab
Instant getup>counter
Instant getup>IP>kickthrough

You're also missing one other option I'm quite a fan of. Drop off the ledge, upB, hold down to cause it to travel past the ledge a bit (hitting them upwards or hitting their shield), regrab the ledge, buffer getup option.

By doing this you take a chance at hitting them off the ledge before getting up while remaining safe. There aren't really many characters with OOS options that hit below the edge quicker than the 20 frames of lag you get from the ledgegrab. This also has the added effect of causing most opponents to TRY to do an oos option against the regrab which should miss. Do not recommend in the matchups where they've got out of shield options that go low enough, like tipper sideB.

Drop>Hop>counter (works well against spaced fsmash attempts)
Drop>uair>hop>normalgetup (Somewhat unsafe and situational)

ledgejump>counter (lands on stage similar to instantgetup without the strict frame timing)

 

[Flawlessh]

honestly, we cant say what is are safest option, since every option is unsafe if the opponent reads us or depending on where there positioned.

like if there right on the ledge or farther away, what i chose to do will be different. it also depends on which character the opponent is using. (if they have bad aerials, ill tend to jump more for example)

 

[MegaFatcat100]

Got another good one (maybe). While playing For Glory, I killed a doctor mario with down throw at 124, but I tried to do the same thing with up throw at the same percents and it failed to kill. I thought up throw was the kill throw, does down throw kill better with rage? Is that even a thing?

 

[Lavani]

Dthrow kills earlier with bad DI, or rage+no DI. Uthrow always kills earlier with proper DI.

 

[Skitrel]

Dthrow kills earlier with bad DI, or rage+no DI. Uthrow always kills earlier with proper DI.

To expand on this... There are situations where you can cause opponents to DI incorrectly. If you get a grab on an opponent performing a normal getup they will usually DI towards the stage expecting fthrow to put them offstage again. This is the most opportune time to trick people into a poor DI choice using dthrow. There is absolutely NO way that at 100%-150% an opponent is going to DI away from the stage when you've grabbed them in that situation which is the only "good DI" you can do vs dthrow.

That's the situation where you folks should be using dthrow instead of uthrow. It's a practically guaranteed DI trap.

 

[gridatttack]

Any tips on diddy?

I swear, I hate diddy even more than I hate Sonic.

Any MU experience you guys can share?

I lost at the first major here to a mediocre diddy... taking 9th where I could have gotten 5th...

I don't see how I am supposed to approach diddy, as all my attempts got punished with diddy's supperior gameplay,

Perhaps is that I suck at this MU, but still, any ideas or tips are welcome.

 

[Nah]

This was posted in the CCI thread a little bit ago, thought I might bring it here:

Flow chart on how to DI Bayonetta's Up B -> Side B -> Up B -> Up air (WIP): pic.twitter.com/oj7WquljCa

— JJROCKETS (@JJROCKETS) April 6, 2016

It's apparently a guideline on how to DI/SDI Bayonetta combos (or the bread and butter one at least). Is probably worth looking into since Bayo is becoming a major metagame force and all and I take it the majority of people still haven't labbed DIing Bayo combos (otherwise there wouldn't be massive amounts of complaints about her combos)......or to see if this even works at all. The test character was Diddy so some adjustments would need to be made for other characters.

 

[atreyujames]

This was posted in the CCI thread a little bit ago, thought I might bring it here:

Flow chart on how to DI Bayonetta's Up B -> Side B -> Up B -> Up air (WIP): pic.twitter.com/oj7WquljCa

— JJROCKETS (@JJROCKETS) April 6, 2016

It's apparently a guideline on how to DI/SDI Bayonetta combos (or the bread and butter one at least). Is probably worth looking into since Bayo is becoming a major metagame force and all and I take it the majority of people still haven't labbed DIing Bayo combos (otherwise there wouldn't be massive amounts of complaints about her combos)......or to see if this even works at all. The test character was Diddy so some adjustments would need to be made for other characters.

Funny thing is, Beefy Smash Dudes JUST uploaded a video about that exact same topic and more

 

[Flawlessh]

Any tips on diddy?

I don't see how I am supposed to approach diddy, as all my attempts got punished with diddy's supperior gameplay,

Perhaps is that I suck at this MU, but still, any ideas or tips are welcome.

Don't approach diddy, or anyone. One of the good things about corrin is her exceptional range, take advantage of that by sitting still and having people approach you.

 

[gridatttack]

Don't approach diddy, or anyone. One of the good things about corrin is her exceptional range, take advantage of that by sitting still and having people approach you.

I normally do that, but I ask the approach because this diddy was like that too.

He just stayed there, waiting for me to approach... not even bananas. it was weird.

 

[Flawlessh]

I normally do that, but I ask the approach because this diddy was like that too.

He just stayed there, waiting for me to approach... not even bananas. it was weird.

i guess what i would do in that situation is also play the waiting game. but if you feel like you have to approach, just space fair in a way that if u do hit his shield, you are able to jump away before he can grab. then if he approaches you on your double jump just side-b a platform.

if diddy happens to be camping under a platform, try to space your side-b so the hitbox goes under the platform but you will "teleport" and stick up above the platform. that way you can put pressure on him while having a safe option of retreating

i also dont believe diddy can punish our side-b if he hit his shield and kick immediately in the opposite direction of him. (if he has a banana, he might be able to throw it at us) what i mean by this is try to kick so your distance isnt cut short by the ledge. i dont believe diddy is fast enough to punish with a dash attack or grab.

 

[LordShade67]

Snip

Optimally spaced, Diddy can only punish our retreating kick with a Super Glide Toss.

Speaking of moves that can punish our retreating kick, add Mewtwo's Dash Attack and Thoron to the list.

 

[Gemba Board]

I feel like corrin approaching with raw fairs and nairs and such is like barely okay. Corrin "approaching" should actually be when you close the distance and stop right outside your opponents attack range. Here, you can maintain that space with sh fair and sh nair (you don't even need to be hitting. As long as if they were to throw out a button like ftilt, our ranged aerials could whiff punish.) what you want is to maintain this range while your opponent's back is to the ledge.

The only time I like to actually approach with a raw attack is with RAR sh bair. It's ridiculous how safe it is on shield and its worth spamming in situations where you won't get punished for it but if it hits, it's a stock. That, and IP kicktoward(pinned) and kickaway(blocked) against players and characters who cannot punish it.

 

[Planty]

I normally do that, but I ask the approach because this diddy was like that too.

He just stayed there, waiting for me to approach... not even bananas. it was weird.

Smash players have a tendency to love pushing buttons if they're safe buttons. You don't always need a hitbox out if it doesn't accomplish anything. It's generally better to move to a better position, usually by walking, and then waiting for an overextension of some sort. Corrin in particular benefits from this.



What do the people on this thread think Corrin's archetype is? When she first came out, there wasn't much agreement to this, but it's been a while now. I personally would describe her as a turtle. She has the options to successfully counterpoke, whiff-punish, and stuff out just about anything if you play your cards right, a bit like Ryu (but Ryu's not a turtle). Stuff like run away -> IP the other way is really stupid in so many matchups and Corrin has the reach to punish very easily in a midrange footsies war. Stuff like Bair lets you move away while getting a hitbox out to protect you. Calling Corrin a turtle character just makes so much sense.

 

[atreyujames]

What do the people on this thread think Corrin's archetype is? When she first came out, there wasn't much agreement to this, but it's been a while now. I personally would describe her as a turtle. She has the options to successfully counterpoke, whiff-punish, and stuff out just about anything if you play your cards right, a bit like Ryu (but Ryu's not a turtle). Stuff like run away -> IP the other way is really stupid in so many matchups and Corrin has the reach to punish very easily in a midrange footsies war. Stuff like Bair lets you move away while getting a hitbox out to protect you. Calling Corrin a turtle character just makes so much sense.

I wouldn't call Corrin a turtle style character at all. We have easy ways to continue our combos and juggles in an advantageous position and with a lack of a good projectile it is hard for us to force approaches. Compared to truely effective turtling characters like Villager, Wii-fit trainer, Robin and DuckHunt, we obviously don't fit the bill very well. I would call us more of a Defensive Spacing style. We don't have many great approaches, but defensively we can space out opponents very well with Insta-pin, SH Nair, Spaced Bairs, Mini Dragon Balls, etc. It can make it very hard to approach us and we can be in a good position to punish if they try and fail.

 

[Planty]

I wouldn't call Corrin a turtle style character at all. We have easy ways to continue our combos and juggles in an advantageous position and with a lack of a good projectile it is hard for us to force approaches. Compared to truely effective turtling characters like Villager, Wii-fit trainer, Robin and DuckHunt, we obviously don't fit the bill very well. I would call us more of a Defensive Spacing style. We don't have many great approaches, but defensively we can space out opponents very well with Insta-pin, SH Nair, Spaced Bairs, Mini Dragon Balls, etc. It can make it very hard to approach us and we can be in a good position to punish if they try and fail.

Play styles generally refer to what's happening in neutral. You could have a good advantage and still be a turtle. Regardless, "defensive spacer" is just a rewording of turtle. It's semantics. What matters more is being able to identify a character's optimal play style to be able to exploit it. I currently feel that Corrin thrives off of patience.

 

[Skitrel]

I'm not inclined to say a turtle either. I'd describe her as a pressure character, but not through actually taking actions, through presence.

Corrin merely has to move into threat range of an opponent and wait. All opponents are forced into acting once she does this. They have two options, acting aggressively or retreating. If they act aggressively Corrin has all the tools she needs to stuff their approach, she just has to accurately guess when their approach will be and not be baited into acting first by mistake. The fast characters bait her best, such as Fox and Falcon, they then go on to punish her action.

If the opponent retreats instead of acting aggressively then she simply continues walking forwards to place the opponent in her threat range. When they get to the edge of the stage they must either break neutral by retreating above her, which she can predict, go aggressive, or go through her.

Once an opponent takes an action Corrin has all the tools to deal with them, she simple needs to be correct about when they're going to take their action. If she's incorrect she loses ground and loses pressure, this shifts momentum towards the opponent until she can reset to applying pressure.

Opponents are constantly thinking "is fsmash in range", "I have to space to avoid IP", "keep shielding don't roll or release vs sideB".

These thoughts consistently running through the opponents mind afford her great control of fights.

She does very well applying pressure, she does very poorly when not in a controlling position to apply pressure. Once out of the neutral she can in fact crumble under sheer rushdown too. Even a character like Jigglypuff can cause her massive problems if it breaks her neutral aggressively.

I can see why the idea of turtle is being thrown out there. But my mind has always viewed turtling as characters that give control to opponents in favour of doing chip-damage bit by bit over a long time period. That's not really Corrin's thing, Corrin takes control and then keeps it through steadily applied pressure. She should build herself a zone of control and constantly push it into the opponent pressuring them to act.

The rushdown quick combo characters are a problem for her in the early percents, but once they've taken 40% their advantage disappears as the knockback Corrin then does makes it the same as other fighters. If she takes first stock in a 2 stock meta she then goes on to continue to cause a problem for rushdowns while she has rage to keep them at a healthy range away from her. High percents are a big benefit in some matchups to keeping opponents outside her space.

I think I went off on a bit of a ramble there. But you get the idea.

For Diddy I've found fair>pp>dtilt and fair>pp>utilt useful for extra spacing dependent on whether they're a dash grabber out of shield or a shorthop aerial out of shield player. Both setup for continued play while stuffing out punishes, although well timed sideB from Diddy punishes it. Mixing up between other options and spacing makes it a nightmare for him to read. Big fan of close range crossup pins to kick off the ledge too, Diddy doesn't edgeguard us too hard as long as we have platforms to play with. In fact nobody does.

 

[JediLink]

I've been struggling with the Sonic matchup. Dragon Fang Shot seems useless because it has so much lag. Raw smashes and Side Bs are easy as hell for Sonic to punish so that's a bad idea. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get close enough to be able to hit him, or how to force him to approach without putting myself at a disadvantage. I find myself just holding shield a lot which doesn't really get me anywhere. I guess I could counter his spindashes but I feel like that would be way too easy to bait. There are no tournament videos of this matchups that I know of. I have no idea what to do. Please help?

 

[gridatttack]

Against Sonic, I play really defensive. They simply love to spindash to you, and when they hit your shield they jump.

Sometimes it's possible to hit them with Uair after this. I try to keep them in the air. Also, they love to land with the AC Dair, so it might be possible to intercept them, or be there to grab them or something.

Other than that, dunno. Haven't had much experience in that MU, but they can punish a missed DL kick. So I try to use it when I can land on the ledge.

As always, Sonic is an annoying character to face against.