Game & Watch Moveset Discussion [Tilts]

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#1
Now let's see if we can get some activity up here!
I've decided to do this thread to help us all improve at least a bit. We talk about one move I semi randomly select at a time and discuss literally everything we know about the move. I'm sure we will all learn something new or improve upon old knowledge. Stuff like followups, traps, mixups, tricks or whatever or just general uses. ANYTHING! We can't have too much information and everyone is allowed to say what they have to say, doesn't matter if you aren't very good, because we will correct you in case something is wrong. Let's have some discussion here!

I will later update OP with a spoiler tag for each move, containing the information of the move we have collected with our discussions. Frame data and such could also be included. I want a great database for GW and I believe we can do it. If you feel like it, give each move a rating from 1-9 (for the glory of judgement) so we can simply say how good each move generally is.
Any suggestions and stuff are welcome here, if this thread doesn't live up to it's expectations, I will be very sad :c

Let's start with something simple... Tilts.
Moves will be discussed in groups instead of individually. Thanks TC.

[collapse=Tilts]
Jab:
"Insert picture of hitbox here"
Frame data:
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-3 Startup
• 4-6 Hitbox out
• 7-15 Cooldown

Jab flurry:
• 15-16 Hitbox out
• 17-22
• 23-24 Hitbox out
• 25-30
• 31-32 Hitbox out
• ... (hits every 7 frames)

Frame Summary
Duration: 15
Hits on frame: 4
Hitbox duration: 3
Cooldown: 9
Shieldstun: 1
Shield advantage: -10
Shield drop advantage: -3

Jab flurry:
Cooldown: 9

Hit Advantages:
+1: Diddy, Shiek, Metaknight, Fox, Falco, Wolf, C. Falcon, Squirtle
+2: Mario, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Link, Ganon, Samus, ZSS, IC, Kirby, Olimar, Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario, Ike, Lucas, Sonic
+3: Luigi, DK, Zelda, Toon Link, Pit, Ivysaur, Marth, Ness, G&W, Snake
+4: Dedede, Jigglypuff

This move is great when you need something fast. It's nice to have at least one option for a quick attack to throw out at times, disrupting most things the opponent might try to do. I use this move as an occasional follow-up to dthrow, though be cautioned that it's easily escapable. Another great use is to randomly throw it out there for some damage. You can continue to hold it if they stay in the pump or let them go.
Utilt:
"insert picture of hitbox here"
Framedata:
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-12 Startup
• 13-21 Hitbox out
• 22-29 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 29
Hits on frame: 13
Hitbox duration: 9
Cooldown: 8
Shield stun: 2
Shield advantage: -14
Shield drop advantage: -7
I rarely use this move. It might be because of personal reasons or that I think it's just too risky. The startup is miserable and the follow up isn't anything more impressive then simply short-hop nair off the ground. Idk. I could see arguments for/against use this. I recall Vinnie loved using this.
Ftilt:
"insert picture of hitbox here"
Framedata:
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-9 Startup
• 10-15 Hitbox out
• 16-35 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 35
Hits on frame: 10
Hitbox duration: 6
Cooldown: 20
Shield stun: 4
Shield advantage: -24
Shield drop advantage: -17

There are two important things to note about this move. The ending lag is horrendous and the startup time (hits on frame 10) is shorter than any of your smashes (hits on 15-18). Because of the first, I would recommend against using this move. Fsmash/Dsmash are much safer options. The short startup time is the only reason I'd consider using this. When you need something to come out sooner than an Fsmash/Dsmash, use Ftilt. It takes some understanding, and a great deal of practice missing with the smashes, to realize when the tilt will hit. Again, I use this rarely.
Dtilt:
"insert picture of hitbox here"
Framedata:
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-5 Startup
• 6-15 Hitbox out
• 16-25 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 25
Hits on frame: 6
Hitbox duration: 10
Cooldown: 10
Shield stun: 2
Shield advantage: -17
Shield drop advantage: -10

Easily the best attack out of the four list. This move not only offers us an infinite (use against walls) but it's a great zoning tool with high priority. We all know how great our bair is right? Super hard to beat. Well, dtilt does the trick. It's that good. A well time dtilt can put a halt to most moves in the game as well as many projectiles (like against TL). If you want to test the power of dtilt, try playing a match where you main focus is to use dtilt more than any other move combined. Spam the crap out of it!
[/collapse]

I used the framedata from Mr Escalators thread so credit to him. Though I think the thread is quite old and though I trust it, I'd still like to recheck it. I just don't know how to. Anyone?
Also I would like to use this kind of a format for this as you can see from the collapse. What do you think?
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
1,072
Location
Tucson, AZ
NNID
daniel7001
#2
When we start a discussion lets get hitbubbles, frame data, and if
It changes our hurtbox show that as well.

Would putting what stages are good for what moves be good here or should we start a stage discussion thread as well?
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
1,072
Location
Tucson, AZ
NNID
daniel7001
#4
Alright then, lets get this on the road. Dtilt is a great move to shut down approaches (which almost never happens for us :/)

It can punish moves that have a higher range than our grab, and can be used to hit out of a missed tech off of the dthrow.

It is a good edgeguarding move, and the trajectory can cause some good gimps, especially on stages like YI:B

The move data would be good to put on the op for what move we discuss. Frame data and hitboxes at least.
 

PentaSalia

Smash Master
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
4,506
Location
New York
NNID
PentaSalad
#5
Down Tilt
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-5 Startup
• 6-15 Hitbox out
• 16-25 Cooldown

Dtilt is G&W's only reliable grounded move. If used properly it can be used in a variety of situations. I'm not really good at explaining stuff but you really just have to just know your spacing with dtilt. Not only does it have it's uses to keep your opponent away but it's great at setting up frame traps, especially offstage. Wish I could give good examples but I could really only show someone loool.

An easy example is a snake trying to recover. If you know he's going to airdodge and he's not anywhere near death percent, dtilt will send him back offstage in any angle where he's forced to cypher in front of you for some good damage or even a gimp. Also when DDD is recovering he's always going to float near the ledge before actually snapping on to it. Dtilt will catch him floating understage and send him back out there, forcing him to upb. It can even hit marth out of his recovery if they space it wrong. Abuse the hitboxes and know its spacing bascially.

Though don't just mindlessly throw it out there because it is very punishable if they predict it and shield it lol.


I LOVE DTILT :smash:
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#6
Shield advantage: -17
Shield drop advantage: -10

Dtilt is a cool move. I think it's easily our best ground move. Without it we would have a hard time doing anything grounded. I has a surprisingly big antiair hitbox. It doesn't do much damage though, but the trajectory helps a lot. It's useful after smashes or aerials to bait the opponent into it.
It's not safe on shield though unless perfectly spaced or against a character without amazing OoS options. Aka Meta Knight will always punish it on shield but Wario won't be doing that.
That's all I can think of. I think it's still a bit overrated move.

Anyone got suggestions or anything for this thread? Seems kinda dead here.
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
1,072
Location
Tucson, AZ
NNID
daniel7001
#7
Pictures! And also adding in thoughts of theorycraft to have contemplated over is always good.

Example: how does dtilt do against people below? Can it ever hit below like dair?
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
735
Location
Portsmouth, OH
3DS FC
3711-8167-5215
#11
Assuming there's no tech, D-tilt is guaranteed out of Dthrow on everyone (unless I'm horribly mistaken) if they land in front of you, or if you can turn around fast enough to get the dtilt out. Good option on heavier classes who can roll out of your dsmash or if you want to keep your dsmash fresh.

Can stop some reckless approaches, i.e. dashing in for a grab, as well as have a reasonable anti-air option.

If the opponent has bad aerial options (i.e. not marth) you can space this correctly on the ledge to where your opponent either has to roll onto the stage from the ledge or jump over your dtilt, both leaving you in a good area to punish (unless they just stand up and powershield or something, which will probably just knock them back off to the ledge again). Just space it to where the lip of the manhole is hanging off the ledge.

I could be horribly wrong on all of this so please correct any mistakes I made lol
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
505
Location
Plover, WI
#12
D-tilt is the move i use when i'm scared to go in hard. it can combo into itself at low percents if it's just a super heavy weight. on PS1 it wall infinates against the tree on the fire transformation. I agree it is out best ground move. it's probly out safest ground move with some range on it and not to mention it's ridiculous hitboxes, it's probly the one move i rely on against olimar.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
#13
Even though it has like nonexistent cooldown, I don't like spamming this move while the opponent is on the ground. I try to just use it once at a time so I can condition people to spotdodge so I just land tipper Down Smash easier. If you use it in succession, people are just more apt to back off. I tend to kill with Down Smash far more than the other two.l because of basic conditioning like this.

Obviously this is more useful against opponents who stay grounded more.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#14
Do we have anything else? Or should we move onto another move? Any suggestions what and how I put stuff in the OP?
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
1,072
Location
Tucson, AZ
NNID
daniel7001
#16
I believe priority is based on damage on the ground, unless it is transcendent.

But yeah, frama data, hitboxes, damage, and then interpret what we said and put that up there.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#17
Priority only exists on the ground. I think it's 8% something so it clanks with almost anything. Shame our moves are kinda slow so most characters can easily beat it.
I will try to update the OP soon, but I cannot do it today.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
#18
You should consider looking at moves in groups vs individually. There's only so much you can say about one move and the longer you drag out projects like this on a character board that's relatively inactive, the more likely the project will die before achieving it's primary goal.

You should do:

Tilts
Smashes
Specials
Aerials
Other

Or something like that.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#19
That is a good point. Let's move on to "tilts" then. Talk about all the tilts.
Outside of Dtilt our tilts kinda suck. Can't bother to say more atm.
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
950
Location
Muskegon, MI
3DS FC
4742-5811-9326
#20
F tilt suxs

There I helped ;)

Really tho almost everytime you f tilt f-smash is a better option

Up tilt is good but situational and hard to find a use for but it strings into itself at low percents and can kill upwards of like 150. Its good move but doesn't work well on :gw:

:phone:
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#21
That's exactly what I think. Our Uptilt isn't good for us. Another character could benefit a lot more. We can just nair instead.
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
735
Location
Portsmouth, OH
3DS FC
3711-8167-5215
#23
Ftilt is useless. Fsmash comes out literally the same frame and does more knockback, has a longer hitbox, and is generally more threatening.

Utilt is high-risk low-reward. Its one of those moves I only use on accident.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
#24
If you FF a Nair at the right time, you can land Up Tilt at like any percent. Nair will pop them up ever so slightly, autocancel and give enough hitstun to make it land. I land it moreso using that method than by itself. More useful at KO percents.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
514
Location
Halifax, N.S.
3DS FC
2208-4906-7922
NNID
Aedrenaline
#25
I'm doing it wrong, I use uptilt allll the time. xD Utilt, utilt, nair, nair, upB!

I also use Fair like it's going out of style.

Hmmmmm...
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2011
Messages
1,072
Location
Tucson, AZ
NNID
daniel7001
#26
I never use UpB as an offensive move. It knocks them in an awkward place. I prefer to keep juggling instead.

I use ftilt all the time, the lingering hitbox is really helpful, and it can be a good mixup (if they predict the dtilt and spotdodge). I also use ftilt to gimp, fsmash's knockback lets them get back easily (if sourspotted) while the ftilt hits in a strange direction. Dtilt can be a bit too fast, and is much more predictable.
 

ZTD | TECHnology

Developing New TECHnology
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
15,817
Location
Ferndale, MI
#27
Fire (Up-B) is awesome for offensive gambits. It's not just an escape tool or recovery. The windboxes are awesome.

Like seriously, what other move is going to not only completely throw off the spacing of a SH aerial approach AND punish them BECAUSE of the absurd vertical acceleration caused by YOUR move? And even if you mis space yourself and don't hit them with Fire itself, they're still in the air..ABOVE you. NO ONE wants to be in that position against a good :gw:.

Tl;dr Abuse windboxes. Up B is ****.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
#31
Oh now the discussion turned into upB. Don't worry, it's perfectly fine to me. I like upB as a combo finisher myself. The basic nair -> nair -> upB is very reliable and puts the opponent in a quite bad position. Especially if you can dair below to immediately to keep juggling. They will be too scared to airdodge thanks to our smashes and nair covers most of things. And Bair is still **** no matter what those theorycrafters say.
 

Soda&watch

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
4
#36
I like dtilt for edgeguarding, then follow up with a fair if possible but what do I know? I'm not as experienced as you.

:phone:
 

Gardex

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 29, 2007
Messages
1,521
Location
Gjøvik/Trondheim, Norway
3DS FC
2707-1617-4394
NNID
Gardex
#38
Utilt has its fair share of uses. Against certain chars like Wario, it does a fair job of beating aerial approaches. Oh, but you may say, nair is such a better choice? Well, at low percentages, utilt kind of combos into itself, and you can THEN follow up with a nair string. Gives you a nice extra amount of damage.
Against some characters like Snake, which are hard to get in the air in the first place, utilt also is a nice way of popping them up when you're very close to them(nice way of beating spotdodges).
Hitting with utilt vs Snake and 0% should result in the snake taking like 40%
Also something I've started to do: Utilt out of dthrow. That **** works really well against lightweights.
Dthrow, utilt, utilt, nair, nair, up b. Amazing stuff

Ftilt also has its niche uses. Ftilt is basically the middle ground between dtilt and fsmash. Slower than dtilt, but does slightly more damage. Faster than fsmash, but does less damage.
Sometimes, when fsmash isn't quick enough, it can be smarter to go for ftilt instead of dtilt. The move is also rarely used, and looks kinda awkward, so it's normal to catch your opponents offguard with it.

Kills at higher percentages as well.
 
Top Bottom