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Data Game & Watch Hitboxes and Frame Data

standardtoaster

Tubacabra
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
9,253
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
Credit to SuperDoodleMan for most of the frame data.
Credit to Jihnsius for the Judgement Mechanics Study.
"Hitbox System" format, method, and organization developed by Stratocaster.
All animated GIF's are at 1/3rd game speed.

Jab

Total: 17
Hit: 4-6
IASA: 16
Window for next blast: 3-16
__________

Rapid Jab

Total: 13
Hit: 5-7
__________

Forward Tilt

Total: 44
Hit: 13-30
IASA: 42
__________

Down Tilt

Total: 29
Hit: 6-13
IASA: 26
__________

Up Tilt

Total: 29
Hit: 9-29
__________

Dash Attack

Total: 37
Hit: 6-29
__________

Forward Smash

Total: 44
Charge Frame: 8
Hit: 13-33
IASA: 42
__________

Up Smash

Total: 44
Charge Frame: 18
Hit: 24-28
Head (but not nose) invincible: 24-28
IASA: 40
__________

Down Smash

Total: 34
Charge Frame: 8
Hit: 15-19
__________

Neutral Air

Total: 44
Hit: 20-29
Auto cancel: <2
Landlag: 15
L canceled: CAN’T
__________

Up Air

Total: 39
Hit: 7-16, 21-22
Auto cancel: <6
Landlag: 18
L canceled: CAN’T
__________

Back Air

Total: 39
Hit: 10-21
Auto cancel: <9
Landlag: 18
L canceled: CAN’T
Landing hit hits on frame 1
__________

Down Air

Total: 49
Hit: 12-38
Auto cancel: <5
Ground hit hits on first 2 frames
Landlag: 20
L canceled: 10
__________

Forward Air

Total: 44
Hit: 10-32
Auto cancel: <2
Landlag: 25
L canceled: 12
__________

Grab

Total: 30
Grab: 7-8
__________

Running Grab

Total: 40
Grab: 11-12
__________

Chef

1st sausage release: 18
Pan hits: 18-21
Window for next B hit: 20-34
B hit sets to frame 3
Last frame: 49
A Sausage lasts 80 frames or until it
lands.
__________

Judgement

X is hammer 1-8.

9 hammer (hitbox is smaller than 1-8)
Total: 49
Hit: 16-29

The first hammer in a match cannot be a 1 or 2.
The second hammer in a match cannot be a 2.
Any number the hammer displays cannot be obtained again until after 2 more hammers.
A death (fall or SD) will reset the rules currently applied to #3.
So long as the forward B animation starts, it will count as the next number. In other words: If you input forward B on frame 1 and are hit on frame 2, it'll still count as the number coming out.
Probabilities known of so far:
1/7 chance to see a nine on first throw.
1/7 chance to see it on the second throw if it was not on the first.
1/7 chance to see it on the third throw if it was not on the first or second.
1/7 chance to see it on the fourth throw if it was not on the second or third.
0 chance to see it on any throw if it's been seen in the past two throws.
__________

Oil Panic

Total (minimum): 49
Starts absorbing: 5
If you keep holding, it loops
from frames 5-37. When you release,
it keeps up until the loop runs out.

When it stops "catching", 12 frames
of lag

When a projectile is caught, 25
frames of invincibility, then the
loop starts again


Hit: 2-37
__________

Fire

Total: 39
Hit: 1-37
Landlag: 40
Landfallspeciallag: 6
__________

Ledge stand <100%

Total: 34
Invincible: 1-30
__________

Ledge stand 100%>

Total: 59
Invincible: 1-55
__________

Ledge roll <100%

Total: 49
Invincible: 1-27
__________

Ledge roll 100%>

Total: 79
Invincible: 1-56
__________

Ledge attack <100%

Total: 55
Invulnerable: 1-39
Hit: 42-47
__________

Ledge attack 100%>

Total: 69
Invulnerable: 1-53
Hit: 55-59
__________

Ledge jump <100%

Total: 37
Invulnerable: 1-12
Soonest FF: 44
__________

Ledge jump 100%>

Total: 47
Invincible: 1-17
Soonest FF: 49
__________

Air Dodge
Total: 49
Invulnerable: 4-29
__________

Spot Dodge
Total: 32
Invulnerable: 2-12
__________

Roll Dodge
Total: 35
Invulnerable: 4-19
__________

Landing lag: 4

Dash becomes run at frame 9
Turn-jump Threshold: 20
Run turnaround: 29
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
Thank you, sir. :3

also: look at that goddamn nair. It's beautiful.

edit^2: this should be stickied
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
His bair is pretty sassy. But it can't be l-canceled. G&W is truly a terrible, enfeebling character. <3
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
Dair said:
Ground hit hits on first 2 frames
Is this the spike from right when it starts up? Cause that thing is fast as hell and I've always felt like it was about 3 frames, if it does start in 2 frames I was pretty close. (:
 

j00t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
2,194
Location
North AL
Thank you for the thread. I shall study this until my ears bleed.

Please sticky.
 

j00t

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
2,194
Location
North AL
My thoughts so far:

Jab is amazing (although I knew this before the frame data :p)
fmash and dair aren't as big as I thought they were
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
Is this the spike from right when it starts up? Cause that thing is fast as hell and I've always felt like it was about 3 frames, if it does start in 2 frames I was pretty close. (:
'ground hit' refers to the hitbox created when G&W lands on the stage from a dair. iirc the dair only meteors on the first three frames of the active hitbox. I know I've read that somewhere but I don't know where or whether or not it was accurate information. :/
 

smasher32

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2003
Messages
279
Location
New York
That down-tilt has some insane range for a floor platform.

If this guy could L-cancel, he would be so much better :(
 

Walt

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
894
Location
Concord, CA
I honestly feel like his weight is a bigger probably than his move lag, sometimes dying to fox usmash at 60%ish is horrible. I feel like his shield is a bigger problem too. He can't even aim his shield off his body, I have to light shield 90% of the time then WD OoS dtilt.
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
If G&W could l-cancel his back air, it'd be pretty fearsome. Though, the combination of his bad shield and weight is his most vexing problem imho.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,403
the two shines, rest, and g&w's upb are the only 1 frame moves in the game.
if only g&w's upb was actually good, then its speed could be used :V
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
I'm not saying one cannot <___< It just takes a lot of effort to get there.
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
2,097
Location
Mahopac, NY
I know this is bumping but I have a quick Q: if G&W's upB and a spacee's shine come out at the same time, do they "clink" or does upB overpower the shine cuz it's stronger?


Shine beats it because they are invincible where as Game and Watch's up b is not.



No wonder I always miss 9 hammers, I didn't even know the hitbox is smaller. Up tilt has no end lag, pretty awesome, andtThe sweetspot on the downsmash looks surprisingly big....
 

DualCats

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 24, 2009
Messages
502
For strictly finishing, yes imo. But some of them can combo with weird DI, 3 is pretty easy to hit out of and 8 can be predicted also.
 

Sorto

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
409
Hey quick question. What is game & watches frame advantage (well disadvantage most likely)for foward air/down air on shield (I am thinking something like -3 ish)? And if spaced poorly, like within an opponents grab range, could jab be used to avoid the shield grab punish (non-tethered grabs) assuming both attacks are done frame perfectly?
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
2,097
Location
Mahopac, NY
Hitting on the last possible frame before you land:

Forward: -3

If you space it perfectly and jab, it should come out the same frame as most characters frame 7 grabs (assuming frame perfect shield grab as well).

You have a safer window Fairing their shield and Up-Bing onto a platform, as that is an option too.


D-air: -2.

Although the ground hit will give them a subtle amount more shield stun too, this move is safer on shields.
 

Sorto

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
409
If G&Ws jab comes out the same frame as the opponents grab, does that mean the game and watch would be grabbed or not (assuming he mispaced and is within the opponents grab range)? I believe in Brawl the opponent would armor through the attack and get a grab (from my knowledge that is how Brawl registers a tie between grab and attack). As far as I know melee doesn't have that mechanic, but wasn't sure how it would register. Because just judging by the brawl mechanic that trade would be terrible.

I know the Up-b allows for a mix-up/safe option if the opponent goes for a quick out of shield punish. However if the opponent reads the Up-b wouldn't game and watch be setting himself up for a really big punish? Or is there a way to quickly/safely cancel the lag?

Or does it become if YOU MISPACED you are in a 50/50 avoiding damage situation?

I am trying to compare to fox/falco/sheik/possibly marth who I feel can get away safe often on shield even if they are not at perfect spacing.
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
2,097
Location
Mahopac, NY
Grabs have priority over normal attacks assuming the attackers hurtbox is in range of the grab. If you Fair>jab at point blank range the grab will win, if you space the Fair>Grab further away the jab will win.

I guess the Up B is punishable but, if you land on the top platform of Dreamland or Battlefield you should be safe even if they do read it.


By the way are you the same Sorto from StonyBrook that played Ice Climbers?
 

Sorto

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
409
Thanks for the info. I mainly asked cause this weekend I was playing a little bit of g&w at no johns in some friendlies/crews and felt like when I mispaced my l-cancelled fairs I found it very hard to avoid being shield grabbed by character's with decent grabs.

And yeah that's me. I am not at Stony anymore though. I graduated/moved. And I am totally sorry, your tag doesn't really ring a bell, but I assume we played/met before? Do I know you by real name perhaps or something?
 

phish-it

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
2,097
Location
Mahopac, NY
Nah you won't know me, I didn't go to StonyBrook but I was there a year and a half ago and we played a couple matches in that game lounge area. Only reason I mention it is because John, (I don't even know what tag he used here) used to talk about the Epic Stonybrook Power Rankings and about You, Remy and himself were the top 3 or something.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
GAW is such a linear boring character

His aerial mobility, grabs, options vs crouch at 0%, big attacks, and paper thin defenses make you think he can be really aggressive though so everyone has a good word form him

Ducking is MVP vs Falcon and dumb Sheiks
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Really? I always thought G&W was such an interesting and fun character with all those big WLs and the ability to potentially edgecancel all of his aerials. He's like a less slidy Luigi with more aerial speed but slidier aerial landings. The only thing I find boring about him is that half the time, he's aiming for a setup into grab, but I guess that's no different than half the cast, huh? :ohwell:
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Edgecancels are cute but he doesn't have the right character build to make it really abusable as a primary strategy IMO. Namely, he just can't play in the air the way that Falcon or whatever can because he's not a FFer and hangs around there too long (thus forfeiting stage presence and telegraphing where he can fade). Edgecancels need a super threatening aerial to cancel to be effective (stomp, Ganon fair, etc) but he lacks one. And when all's side and done, he can't base his shield pressure off move spam the way that Fox & Falcon can so the utility of edgecancel as a shield pressure option doesn't really work either.

He's just kind of a simple character with nothing really going for him aside from good hitboxes and good grab combos. And it's not enough to offset everything working against him.

Between his fragility, lacking l-cancels on a bunch of potentially really useful moves (oh I wish his bair and uair could be l-canceled), Falco's existence as a whole, and various other shortcomings and you have... a bad character. He gives the illusion of being deep but he's not. Not really. His most interesting things have to do with how he manages his stances during movement and his body contortions in various poses he has but those aren't enough to base a whole character or style off of sadly.
 
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