Q&A Game Play Advice and General Discussion

[NotAnAdmin]

Hey there.
So I've been playing sm4sh since its release but I don't feel like I can got any better.
I keep asking people how to get better at smash and they say that i should watch tourney videos like S@X, yet every time i watch those i don't seem to learn anything (even tho some of them are pretty hype).
So, how can a guy who prefers to learn by playing in game learn from those videos?

Are you watching them or are you analyzing them? There are a couple things to look for when watching a match.

-Spacing: Pointing out good and bad spacing on both sides of a situation is always good. When you see it done right it gives you a reference in your play
-General Neutral Game Scenarios: This shows the way you should behave in the neutral and what to do when you make an opening or an opening is found in your play
-Strategies on reading your opponent: Some players develop good ways to read their opponents that can be seen in a replay
-General knowledge: You learn things about your own mains and characters that you didn't know. For instance, some people don't know that Falco's fair has a hitbox that comes out if he hits the ground in the middle of his fair, it comes out frame 1. Knowing about this can help you to watch out for whenever a sneaky Falco main tries to catch you with it and you can punish.

It's just pointing out good or bad things done in a match and taking note.

 

[Heart of Ice]

Hi guys! I am currently having problems beating my friend when he uses blaster+illusion spam Falco (embarrassing, right?). I am a Diddy main and he primarily uses his blaster until I'm close enough and then uses illusion to get away (followed by copious amounts of rolls, but that could be punished if I could just get close enough!). I have tried to bait out the illusion (which leads to getting shot several more times), but he won't do it until I'm close enough to be unable to punish. I have used monkey flip on a handful of occasions which DOES stop the illusion, but it doesn't stop a blaster shot or punishes if the monkey flip misses. The monkey flip kick can eat through a blaster shot, but doesn't beat illusion or any additional shots, also monkey flip kick has punishable lag.

It's hard to approach a projectile that has such high hitstun and eats shields alive when I use dash to shield. Not to mention any time I go for an aerial approach I end up eating a smash attack. It's a problem on all stages, but FD (It's a good thing there are so many amirite!?) is easily the worst. Punishing rolls is one thing, but this is madness!!!

I also use Robin, which is obviously a nightmare match-up for me, because it's kind of hard to wall out someone who has no intention or need of approaching. The illusion strategy is especially difficult with Robin because Robin has the slowest ground speed in the game and only modest air speed, so I have no clue how to punish this outside of a Thoron (which could be reflected) that I will never be able to charge up.

Also, any general tips that apply to all characters are greatly appreciated! Thanks!

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Just jump over/roll through them, and wait him out. Not only are his lasers slow but the range is also pretty mediocre as well. Compared to Melee/Brawl Falco this iteration of the blaster is the worst.
Falco's blaster has some of the most horrible endlag when used on the ground (which is probably the only time it hits because Falco's blaster is pretty ****e).

Anyways if you must approach:
Wait outside of Falco's phantasm range. The attack doesn't have a full hitbox and even if he uses phantasms at shorthop height the lag is just long enough to punish him or pressure with a projectile of your own, if you've got Diddy go for a banana peel throw or a peanut shot. Space him out and anticipate the phantasm. Another tip about phantasm, the hitbox moves behind Falco, so you can easily throw out a Diddy forward special or any other move that lingers for a while and it will clink or outright beat the phantasm, this is only if you react though.

This is a test of your spacing and patience, don't rush in and make Falco approach you. Falco's biggest vice is not having a strong approach tool outside of bair, tilts and fair to an extent.

 

[Heart of Ice]

Just jump over/roll through them, and wait him out. Not only are his lasers slow but the range is also pretty mediocre as well. Compared to Melee/Brawl Falco this iteration of the blaster is the worst.
Falco's blaster has some of the most horrible endlag when used on the ground (which is probably the only time it hits because Falco's blaster is pretty ****e).

Anyways if you must approach:
Wait outside of Falco's phantasm range. The attack doesn't have a full hitbox and even if he uses phantasms at shorthop height the lag is just long enough to punish him or pressure with a projectile of your own, if you've got Diddy go for a banana peel throw or a peanut shot. Space him out and anticipate the phantasm. Another tip about phantasm, the hitbox moves behind Falco, so you can easily throw out a Diddy forward special or any other move that lingers for a while and it will clink or outright beat the phantasm, this is only if you react though.

This is a test of your spacing and patience, don't rush in and make Falco approach you. Falco's biggest vice is not having a strong approach tool outside of bair, tilts and fair to an extent.

I wish I could just stay out of his range, but Falco's laser cover about 80% of the 3DS Final Destination (I checked). He usually just camps near the ledge, but he only has to move a little bit forward and then I am in range and have lost stage control.

I have tried my best to anticipate the phantasm as stated in the OP, but he won't do it until I'm too close to punish (ex. pivot grab, SH aerial, Monkey Flip). If I do decide to just stay out of the phantasm range I just get peppered with blaster shots and ultimately gain nothing.

Peanut shots have very low priority and get trumped by most projectiles in the game and that includes Mario's fireballs. The blaster shots would eat right through any peanuts that were shot at him and even if he wasn't shooting, he would probably be able to reflect a slow moving, predictable projectile.

His smash attacks actually do a pretty good job covering high aerial approaches. I am frequently intercepted by a smash attack, so those are a bit risky and predictable. Speaking of aerials, I can't even do a short hop to perform an aerial without being blasted by that gun.

Rolling into people is usually a bad idea. I usually use a grab or Diddy's F/D-tilt to punish those that try. So.... I can't see that working with Falco.

There has to be something I'm overlooking. Ledge d***ing? I guess he can't shoot me if I'm on the ledge, but I also have very few options myself. Then it would all be up to patience, I guess? That sounds REALLY boring, but I can't think of anything else. Any other ideas?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Like before just try to stay out of phantasm's range. This part is very important, do not get too close.
Dodge/shield the lasers and wait him out, not only are the lasers slow but the lag is awful. I didn't particularly mean for you to roll into him, but for you to time your rolls to dodge the lasers if need be. Simply jumping over the lasers is a good option but remember to not get too close. An opportunity will present itself eventually but you've got to react quickly.
For your use of projectiles, I also meant for a specific scenario of you baiting out the phantasm or another attack or the Falco tries to move in. If the Falco tries to attack you or do just about anything that requires
him to put the blaster away, you've got a solid 59 frames to do something. If you've already got the banana ready you can intercept him or pressure him to get the upper hand.

I would suggest waiting him out but the if there is a need to for you to get close refer to the tips above.
Waiting him out may be very lame, but sometimes being lame is the best option. Sorry for not explaning so well before.

 

[JoeRogan]

Hello everyone, I have searched the forums for my number one question but I have found nothing. My apologies if there is something I missed. My questions are a back to basics kind of thing but very important. I am hoping to ask these things so that I can fix any bad habits quickly before I try to become better at the game.

First, When you are playing Smash are you looking at your character? Your opponents character? Or just staring in the middle of the screen between them sort of using your peripheral to see both.

Second, I see all these high combo strings in competitive game play. Are they executing these moves the split second the animation has ended for an attack or jump to keep doing the next? (Frame perfect some one would say) or are they doing what's known as "Buffering" in other games where they do inputs as their animation for attacking is close to being done but not there yet? It's a bit hard to explain what I mean but I figured I would try. This is my first post here and I have been playing the smash series for quite a long time and am just now looking to get competitive. Thank you in advance and I apologize for any spelling errors.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Hello guys,

I recently started playing sm4sh seriously,I am currently trying to master the mechanic of the game (SH, PP...) which is developping slowly but surely .
But during the game, I don't know how to process all the informations to make the best move, to read... In neutral I just throw moves randomly and hope it connects or succeed. Do anyone have any tips to start thinking during the game ?

Thank you in advance
ISoul

 

[Jaxas]

Hello everyone, I have searched the forums for my number one question but I have found nothing. My apologies if there is something I missed. My questions are a back to basics kind of thing but very important. I am hoping to ask these things so that I can fix any bad habits quickly before I try to become better at the game.

First, When you are playing Smash are you looking at your character? Your opponents character? Or just staring in the middle of the screen between them sort of using your peripheral to see both.

Second, I see all these high combo strings in competitive game play. Are they executing these moves the split second the animation has ended for an attack or jump to keep doing the next? (Frame perfect some one would say) or are they doing what's known as "Buffering" in other games where they do inputs as their animation for attacking is close to being done but not there yet? It's a bit hard to explain what I mean but I figured I would try. This is my first post here and I have been playing the smash series for quite a long time and am just now looking to get competitive. Thank you in advance and I apologize for any spelling errors.

Alright, so first up you want to spend the vast majority of the time watching your opponent's character.
The idea is that you should know your character's frame data/movement speed/etc well enough to not have to watch them and still know what they're doing (since you're controlling them) - of course you still pay attention out of your peripheral vision to make sure but that's the goal. This allows you to focus on your opponent, which lets you react better, notice habits/etc better, things like that.
One time you should probably watch your character (or switch back and forth) is while you're recovering, but even then you want your focus to be mostly on your opponent.

As for the strings, Smash 4 does have a buffering system but depending on the string it's a mix of both. Smash 4's buffer system is a bit... odd, in that it only allows you to buffer 1 direction + 1 button input, and the input sent is based off of a priority list (I believe it's Grab/Zair > Dodge > Attack > Special > Jump? I'm not sure though, I just know that Jump is at the bottom and that's why if you try and jump+attack on the same frame while recovering you die...). Also, the Buffer Window is 9 Frames (+ "Frame 0", or the current frame), or ~1/6th of a second.

What this means is that if Captain Falcon could (maybe he can? Idk) do Dthrow -> Bair as a true combo (we'll say for the example that you have to be Frame-Perfect to land it), you controls are
(Land a Grab) -> (Dthrow)->(Pivot)->(Jump)->(Bair).

During the Dthrow you could buffer the Pivot (and I *believe* the jump as well), but you'd have to buffer the Bair input during your JumpSquat frames rather than being able to potentially do so during the Dthrow.


But so yeah, tl;dr:

• Watch your opponent 99% of the time
• You can buffer, but it's a bit different than in some (most?) other games

Hope it helped!

 

[ぱみゅ]

Unless you play Robin, then you must pay attention to your tomes, swords, and your opponent /nitpick

 

[Zeke8877]

so me and my friend want to start to play doubles and we want to do the team meta and robin anyone have some advice for us. thanks!

 

[dhif24]

Hi, I played in my first tournament yesterday and have a couple questions:

how can I get better? I dont have good internet at my place so I can't play online, I play with my friends alot but its way different than tournament play (my friends like to camp and play defensively which is fine but it seems in tournaments that this style doesn't work, you have to be good at approaching) is playing against computers good practice? I read somewhere level 8s are better training than 9s

So I lost both sets and both matches

Match1 I played a sonic as luigi, I always like this matchup because I can usually space with fireballs and punish the spin dash approaches with grabs into combos etc. is this matchup in luigi's favor? He ended up gimping me off stage with the spring

Match2 I played a sub par cloud (should of won this no excuses) I was up 2 stocks in the first match and had him up to about 60% then he came back and killed me pretty early with a limit break on the edge - kind of frustrated with this matchup since I've never played cloud before, I play luigi and falcon and afterwards I was thinking falcon would possibly be the better matchup here??

So it was fun but definitely didn't play to potential, any advice? thx

 

[BlueX]

Hi, I played in my first tournament yesterday and have a couple questions:

how can I get better? I dont have good internet at my place so I can't play online, I play with my friends alot but its way different than tournament play (my friends like to camp and play defensively which is fine but it seems in tournaments that this style doesn't work, you have to be good at approaching) is playing against computers good practice? I read somewhere level 8s are better training than 9s

So I lost both sets and both matches

Match1 I played a sonic as luigi, I always like this matchup because I can usually space with fireballs and punish the spin dash approaches with grabs into combos etc. is this matchup in luigi's favor? He ended up gimping me off stage with the spring

Match2 I played a sub par cloud (should of won this no excuses) I was up 2 stocks in the first match and had him up to about 60% then he came back and killed me pretty early with a limit break on the edge - kind of frustrated with this matchup since I've never played cloud before, I play luigi and falcon and afterwards I was thinking falcon would possibly be the better matchup here??

So it was fun but definitely didn't play to potential, any advice? thx

Practicing with CPUs is good but it is best to practice with lvl. 3 CPUs or lvl. 7 sometimes. Often what you can do is to set the stocks to 99 and train with a level 3 or 7 CPU or go to training mode where you get more options on training. You can also practice your short hops and Auto lag cancel with short hops. Learning the mechanics and fundamentals of Smash 4 is also very important as well. Reading your opponent is very important as you have to pay close attention to what your opponent is going to do... try to see if they are doing a certain strategy or pattern everytime.

Learning your character is necessary too if you want to improve. There are the character boards here that will help you to get a better understanding of your main like combos, match ups, tech, etc.

http://smashboards.com/forums/wii-u-3ds-character-discussion.291/

 

[Koiba]

'Ello~


I've been wondering on how I can improve my edgegaurding and gimping ability


I've realized that my ability to do some magic offstage is actually almost non-existent heh

It's either that I don't do it at all or I accidentally go too deep and they recover over me


I know that learning your opponent's patterns are a big thing but even then I still don't have the guts to do it. Even though I know my character can go the the bottom of Battlefield and still make it back to the ledge in one piece

And whenever I do try it I go too deep or they counterattack with an aerial that has a disjoint or something like that


So help would really be appreciated~

 

[Sonicninja115]

'Ello~


I've been wondering on how I can improve my edgegaurding and gimping ability


I've realized that my ability to do some magic offstage is actually almost non-existent heh

It's either that I don't do it at all or I accidentally go too deep and they recover over me


I know that learning your opponent's patterns are a big thing but even then I still don't have the guts to do it. Even though I know my character can go the the bottom of Battlefield and still make it back to the ledge in one piece

And whenever I do try it I go too deep or they counterattack with an aerial that has a disjoint or something like that


So help would really be appreciated~

Well, as Rosa, you have the ability to catch Luma on a ledge and Jab. You can also try to Dair them as they grab the ledge (the hitbox goes below, making it easier to hit them) or Dtilt

Pit has arrows and Bair, as well as Dair for ledge guarding.

Someone else will have to give you more fundamental advice.

 

[FALCON (///_V)]

Hey guys I'm looking for a new secondary that can deal with players that are heavily defensive. I struggle the most again little mac, ryu, and mario. I main falcon and I can do weLloyd against any other character but I struggle fighting these players that play non approachable. Any suggestions would be appreciated

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Get a campy character like Mega man or pac man. That way hey have to approach you.

 

[Drevis2]

Whenever I fight a newer player who hasn't gained very much skill yet, while I usually win, (except on FG where lag messes me up even more) the matches tend to be much closer than they should be, and the opponents hit me with attacks I really shouldn't get hit by. How do I stop this? I think the problem is, is that my mind is expecting the player to do what better players of the same character do. But of course the player does otherwise, it's like the attacks a lesser skilled player uses is randomly thought of. I'm not prepared for it. But this worries me, I can't go to tournaments losing to players who don't know what a "pivot" is. Imagine ZeRo losing to scrubby players, it would probably be weird, right? I really need to stop having so much trouble with this, what do I do? I will say however that some newer players I do better with, basically the ones that don't have any weird techniques, like a lot of rolling, charging smash attacks when far away, using certain moves MUCH more than they should (EX: Tink's dair, ZSS's dair, Sonic's side B, and almost any type of projectile) The players with non-weird playstyles I can beat easier, but the ones who do, do these things, I don't know what to do about them. Anybody have any advice?

 

[LozNerd]

I would just go in not expecting anything from them. Try and use the beginning of a match to find their habits. Take it like playing a character you have never played before, what would you do then? Feel them out, right?

 

[Drevis2]

I would just go in not expecting anything from them. Try and use the beginning of a match to find their habits. Take it like playing a character you have never played before, what would you do then? Feel them out, right?

Thanks for the advice, while it somewhat helped, I find myself having trouble doing this. when I try this, I still get hit by some attacks like yoshi's ground pound, even when it'sobvious. Even when I come across an opponent that JUST spams Ftilt or neutral B, I have trouble against them. My mind has trouble fighting against these even when I know what they are gonna do. Your tip helps, but I have trouble executing it in my brain.

 

[Drewthedude64]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ads-and-punishes-easier.426688/#post-20643769

 

[HoSmash4]

You play defensive and shield their unsafe punish moves And punish.

 

[Awoo~]

Has any significant testing been done on how this functions?

Specifically I'm looking for a few things. For how many frames can you interrupt a grab after it has initiated? Is it the same for every character or is it different for tethers vs other grabs?

I feel like understanding the fundamental frame data to this mechanic could be valuable however I can't seem to find anything on it beyond the fact that know quick moves interrupt grabs during their animation.

My assumption is that there is some sort of animation that engages and doesn't fully interrupt the opponent animation for a few frames thus allowing a jab or other hurtbox soon to engage to get out before the grab is completely engaged but data would be lovely! It would be nice to know whether there are certain moves are in fact quick enough to cancel grabs even after a grab has started and what they are.

Cheers.

 

[Drevis2]

Here is a list of things that give me trouble:

- Lots of rolling
- Using moves at unpreditable times
- Using weird moves at innaporpriate times.
- Airdodging randomly/Wierdly/more than you should.
- Spamming moves
- Spamming projectiles
- Using smash attacks at bad times and charging them while away from me.
- Not using moves at times they should
- spamming Ftilt

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I believe most characters have different timeframes for when the grab comes out. If you hit their hurt box with an attack before the grab comes out it will interrupt the grab.

For tethers the grab usually doesn't come out until a few frames later ( I think). The biggest things that affect tethers is their cool down frames after the grab has ended.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, the gist of interrupting a grab is to hit the grabber before the grab is completed, so it can be during the startup or the very first frame of the grab (more frames and the grabbed one would have their animations interrupted).

 

[Awoo~]

Yeah, the gist of interrupting a grab is to hit the grabber before the grab is completed, so it can be during the startup or the very first frame of the grab (more frames and the grabbed one would have their animations interrupted).

Yeah, I figured that's generally how it works. But I'm assuming nobody has done thorough testing on the exact figures?

I would be very interested to know the exact frame that a grab animation takes over and stops an opponent's own animation, I'd like to devise a test for it but I'm not wholly certain what the best approach would be. I think knowing the exact frame could lead to developing better safe gameplay versus opponents when you know they're fishing for a grab.

 

[Yuenku]

In general, what are some efficient ways of punishing players who are really good at spot dodging (Shield+Down), and following up with a smash attack?

My brother is so irritatingly good at at it with Fox and CFalcon, although I've found some success at using air attacks. Still, I'd love to have more diversity.

 

[Pazx]

Yeah, I figured that's generally how it works. But I'm assuming nobody has done thorough testing on the exact figures?

I would be very interested to know the exact frame that a grab animation takes over and stops an opponent's own animation, I'd like to devise a test for it but I'm not wholly certain what the best approach would be. I think knowing the exact frame could lead to developing better safe gameplay versus opponents when you know they're fishing for a grab.

You can find each character's frame data for their grab in many places, I personally use http://kuroganehammer.com/

The phenomenon you have described as "grab interruption" occurs when Character A's grab box overlaps Character B's hurtbox on the same frame that Character B's attack hitbox overlaps Character A's hurtbox. If Character A has a frame 6 grab, the grab will lose to any frame 5 attacks (meaning CharA gets hit) and win against any frame 7 or more attacks (meaning CharB gets grabbed). If the attack used comes out on the same frame as the grab, frame 6 in this instance, Character A will receive full damage and knockback (?) from the attack whilst Character B will receive 3% damage and slide backwards in an animation similar (maybe identical?) to a grab release.

Edit: you can test this yourself in 1/4 Press L speed training mode, start a frame 6 move (Sonic ftilt) or a frame 7 move (Sonic utilt) and a frame 6 grab (Also Sonic + most but not all non-tether characters) to see the difference.

 

[Awoo~]

You can find each character's frame data for their grab in many places, I personally use http://kuroganehammer.com/

The phenomenon you have described as "grab interruption" occurs when Character A's grab box overlaps Character B's hurtbox on the same frame that Character B's attack hitbox overlaps Character A's hurtbox. If Character A has a frame 6 grab, the grab will lose to any frame 5 attacks (meaning CharA gets hit) and win against any frame 7 or more attacks (meaning CharB gets grabbed). If the attack used comes out on the same frame as the grab, frame 6 in this instance, Character A will receive full damage and knockback (?) from the attack whilst Character B will receive 3% damage and slide backwards in an animation similar (maybe identical?) to a grab release.

Edit: you can test this yourself in 1/4 Press L speed training mode, start a frame 6 move (Sonic ftilt) or a frame 7 move (Sonic utilt) and a frame 6 grab (Also Sonic + most but not all non-tether characters) to see the difference.

Cool, thank you. Here's hoping this is the EXACT mechanic, I'll do some playing with this in mind.

Have any thoughts on what's occurring here?

https://gfycat.com/HastyUntriedBonobo

EDIT: On second thoughts, a 40MB gif file is probably not a good thing to embed.

 

[NickRiddle]

Cool, thank you. Here's hoping this is the EXACT mechanic, I'll do some playing with this in mind.

Have any thoughts on what's occurring here?

https://gfycat.com/HastyUntriedBonobo

EDIT: On second thoughts, a 40MB gif file is probably not a good thing to embed.

The Arc Thunder made the grab awkward, and when Robin pummeled, the game realized that MK was nowhere near so he fell out.
MK also could have mashed because Robin's pummel is terrible.

 

[iDaire]

I've been finding myself coming back to this thread on a somewhat monthly basis because I always find myself presented with more issues in terms of my gameplay or even outside of that. I'd appreciate the help if you guys could lend any. So, I've been playing tournaments and I've been finding myself presented with many issues:

• I don't win any. I knew that it wouldn't be easy to win tournaments and that I should keep going to improve. I have been improving and I can tell there is a difference in me before my first tournament and me now, after having play approximately 12 tournaments. But, if I have been improving, why is it that I still haven't won a single tournament or placed in top ten at least? It's plausible that it's because I've been going to the same tournaments as IQHQ Vinnie and DA Jtails, but other than that, there's not really much indiciation that I'm improving, since I can barely ever move my ranking above 20. Is this problem solved by continuously going to tournaments? If we're going to claim that I'm improving each tournament, than the problem also is the fact that these people are improving at the same rate I am, or probably faster. How do I over come that then?

• Tournament Anxiety. I go to these tournaments and perform significantly worse than I do at home. I've been going to tournaments for a while now, so why is it that I can't get past my tournament anxiety? Omni made a video about this, but it didn't help that much. Any tips?

• Is it wrong to accept help from someone that you want to beat, or rather, someone that you aim to beat? I kid you guys not, there are a list of competitive players that I aim to beat at some time in my competitive career. I know these people know more than me in this game, so would it be wrong to accept help from someone that you want to beat in the near future? Does doing so not solidify your position as worse than this person in terms of skil? Generally speaking, students only learn from teachers because they don't know what the content themselves.

• When I run into a bad matchup in the tournaments, should I just confront it head-on, or switch my character? If I play ZSS, and the enemy picks Kirby after I pick ZSS, is it a bad thing if I change my character to someone else to handle this matchup? What do I do if the opponent changes their character to someone else to again counter what I changed my character to? These are stupid questions to have, but it's going to happen someday.

• Rank #2067. You won't run into many people who care about rank that much, but that's why I exist. I'm a player stuck only being able to play tournaments in New York, and even then, I don't know how much I'm improving or if I'm improving at all. My question is, how far will I be able to go if I'm just a player in my state? If I can't go to events like EVO or Super Smash Con, how far can I really go in terms of my competitive career?

In terms of gameplay, there are separate issues:

• To be a better player, it is required that you have both significant technical skill and mindgames. Technical skill is something that can be blindly improved without much thought process required at all, since it's just muscle memory. But then, what about mindgames? There is no way to have the best mindgames, but there are ways to improve it. I don't have much people to practice with since my friends don't play Sm4sh to the extent that I do (and are worse than me as a result) and I have terrible connection. I need to be able to practice mindgames and become better at them. Are there any tips for this?

• Also, I don't have the best neutral game out there. The objective of neutral is to try to go into advanatage whilst also staying outside of disadvantage, but there's never any indicator as for when you are in any of these three phases. Stage control also factors into it, so that doesn't help me figure out where I am. When would I know that I'm in neutral, disadvantage, or advantage?

• This is a nitpick, but the concept of "safe on shield" doesn't sink for me. There are no moves that can't be punished. So, what's with this safe on shield concept? Are you telling me that there are certain moves in this game that if the opponent were to block or dodge, I would still be able to maintain my stage control and not be punished? Every move can be punished in some way, so how do I know at what intervals when I can toss out which move and expect not to be grabbed? As an example, my Toon Link against a Kirby. While I could toss projectiles at Kirby, the enemy could just walk up and block all of them and if I try to grab Kirby as an action to counter it, the opponent could either react to me running up and grabbing and punish it, or they could just simply duck. It is then that my main strategy has become forsaken due to the fact that the enemy has ways to get around them. Is this just a bad matchup for Toon Link or am I not playing the neutral correctly?

• I need help competitively, but you don't see people like ZeRo or Dabuz asking for help on this thread. I don't have anything against this thread or the people in it, but is there some other resource that these people are relying on that I'm not?

Thanks for reading this far.

 

[Daxter]

Little Macs. I need not say any more. The butt of everyone else's jokes is the pain in my butt. He's invincible as far as I'm concerned.

Also, and more importantly, what can I do to avoid being upset? For Glory is my only means of practice, but I only have a 5% win rate after 5000 games, and almost every time I lose, someone uploads a bullying replay of it. And with a win rate like that, do you think I ought to sell the game? I try, I try, I REALLY do try my best, but everyone online beats me, and all they have to do is use Zelda's Side-B or Little Mac's F-Smash. I feel like a hopeless cause.

 

[Cheeks]

Little Macs. I need not say any more. The butt of everyone else's jokes is the pain in my butt. He's invincible as far as I'm concerned.

Also, and more importantly, what can I do to avoid being upset? For Glory is my only means of practice, but I only have a 5% win rate after 5000 games, and almost every time I lose, someone uploads a bullying replay of it. And with a win rate like that, do you think I ought to sell the game? I try, I try, I REALLY do try my best, but everyone online beats me, and all they have to do is use Zelda's Side-B or Little Mac's F-Smash. I feel like a hopeless cause.

Daxter, since you are on smashboards why don't you start a thread asking for a member to coach you? It looks like you play wario and robin. I main Wario plus my brother mains Robin we could definitely help you out. I got thousands of games with wario and i think my win rate is around 50-55%. My brother keeps about a 65% rate with Robin. Im only an average level player but im sure me and brother could help you out with those particular characters

 

[Nah]

I unfortunately only have answers for some of these so someone else is gonna have to answer the rest but.....

Is it wrong to accept help from someone that you want to beat, or rather, someone that you aim to beat? I kid you guys not, there are a list of competitive players that I aim to beat at some time in my competitive career. I know these people know more than me in this game, so would it be wrong to accept help from someone that you want to beat in the near future? Does doing so not solidify your position as worse than this person in terms of skill? Generally speaking, students only learn from teachers because they don't know what the content themselves.

When I run into a bad matchup in the tournaments, should I just confront it head-on, or switch my character? If I play ZSS, and the enemy picks Kirby after I pick ZSS, is it a bad thing if I change my character to someone else to handle this matchup? What do I do if the opponent changes their character to someone else to again counter what I changed my character to? These are stupid questions to have, but it's going to happen someday.

There isn't anything wrong with either of these things. I your goal is keep getting better and better, you should use whatever means possible to improve yourself. Playing with and asking advice from players better than you is a pretty normal thing, regardless of whether or not you want to take them down one day. And yeah, you do have to accept that you are indeed worse than someone else if you ever want to improve, otherwise you never will. You just have to keep in mind that admitting that someone is more skilled than you right now doesn't mean it'll always be that way/that you'll never get better.

Counterpicking is a fairly common practice afaik and something you shouldn't be afraid to do. But what you really also want to do is get MU experience in your bad MUs, both for your main and your secondaries/pockets/counterpicks, so when you are forced into a bad MU you know how to deal with it better and can potentially win it.

You wanna do both basically.

Tournaments usually have a console set aside for people to play friendlies on, right? That's probably the best way for you to get the MU experience you need if online/friends at home aren't good enough options.

Also, I don't have the best neutral game out there. The objective of neutral is to try to go into advanatage whilst also staying outside of disadvantage, but there's never any indicator as for when you are in any of these three phases. Stage control also factors into it, so that doesn't help me figure out where I am. When would I know that I'm in neutral, disadvantage, or advantage?

Generally you're in advantage when the opponent is offstage, in the air above you/you have a juggle situation set up, you've landed a combo starter/are in the middle of comboing them, etc. You're in disadvantage when those things are happening to you. There's more to advantage/disadvantage than that, those are just some examples I can think of. Sometimes it's a lot less obvious than that too. Emblem Lord wrote some thing on the 3 states of gameplay (mainly focused on neutral) some time ago here, so give that a read and see if it helps any.

This is a nitpick, but the concept of "safe on shield" doesn't sink for me. There are no moves that can't be punished. So, what's with this safe on shield concept? Are you telling me that there are certain moves in this game that if the opponent were to block or dodge, I would still be able to maintain my stage control and not be punished? Every move can be punished in some way, so how do I know at what intervals when I can toss out which move and expect not to be grabbed? As an example, my Toon Link against a Kirby. While I could toss projectiles at Kirby, the enemy could just walk up and block all of them and if I try to grab Kirby as an action to counter it, the opponent could either react to me running up and grabbing and punish it, or they could just simply duck. It is then that my main strategy has become forsaken due to the fact that the enemy has ways to get around them. Is this just a bad matchup for Toon Link or am I not playing the neutral correctly?

Safe on shield really is a thing, it just doesn't happen as often or as consistently as people might think. Doesn't help that a lot of stuff is unsafe in general in Smash 4. Usually what's implied is that the move in question that's hitting the shield is perfectly spaced and they hit the ground the frame after the move makes contact and/or they hit the autocancel window. In some cases the shieldshield stun and shield drop frames last long enough that the attacker has enough time to get out of their landing lag and begin to input another action before the defender can input an action. Sometimes you're also just simply too far away to punish.

Thing is though, powershielding basically makes nothing safe on shield, and some characters have OoS options fast enough to punish usually safe moves, like UpB.

I need help competitively, but you don't see people like ZeRo or Dabuz asking for help on this thread. I don't have anything against this thread or the people in it, but is there some other resource that these people are relying on that I'm not?
Thanks for reading this far.

Uh, well, that'd probably be because they're some of the best players in the world and I really doubt that anyone here'd be able to answer whatever kinds of questions top level players might have.

What do they do to get so good though? You'd have to ask them, cuz **** if I know

Little Macs. I need not say any more. The butt of everyone else's jokes is the pain in my butt. He's invincible as far as I'm concerned.

Also, and more importantly, what can I do to avoid being upset? For Glory is my only means of practice, but I only have a 5% win rate after 5000 games, and almost every time I lose, someone uploads a bullying replay of it. And with a win rate like that, do you think I ought to sell the game? I try, I try, I REALLY do try my best, but everyone online beats me, and all they have to do is use Zelda's Side-B or Little Mac's F-Smash. I feel like a hopeless cause.

Yeah....thing with Mac is that he benefits from the way FG is far more than anyone in the game. Final Destination/Omegas are far and away his best stage, and while I think that people tend to greatly overexagerrate what the online input lag can do to you, it really only helps Mac since his frame data is so ****ing good already and it's very difficult to consistently powershield most things in online play. I feel like playing Mac offline with a stage list larger than FD/Omegas would be significantly better.

.....so don't feel bad about it is what I'm trying to say I guess.

One thing I have to ask though Daxter.......have you ever tried to arrange matches with people on here (and I mean here, not Anther's Ladder) for the purpose of getting feedback and advice on your play? I have made the offer to you before to play you in order to help you, and I'm sure many other people on this site would be willing to do the same.

 

[Daxter]

One thing I have to ask though Daxter.......have you ever tried to arrange matches with people on here (and I mean here, not Anther's Ladder) for the purpose of getting feedback and advice on your play? I have made the offer to you before to play you in order to help you, and I'm sure many other people on this site would be willing to do the same.

I always try to, but I end up forgetting and it always falls through. That and most people only use the Wii U version.

For Glory is much easier to set up than Anther's Ladder or matches here, and I'm a litttttle less likely to be curbstomped in the Shadow Realm. The last time I tried to get advice from someone on CrazyHand Reddit, I had to quit Smash for weeks because I felt so idiotic for being crushed by a Mii Swordfighter again and again.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Quick question. If I am dashing will shield come up slower when compared to walking? I play DK, I am hearing this happens with him, is it only him, is it just some characters or is this universal across the entire roster? Thanks.

 

[NickRiddle]

Quick question. If I am dashing will shield come up slower when compared to walking? I play DK, I am hearing this happens with him, is it only him, is it just some characters or is this universal across the entire roster? Thanks.

You cannot shield during a dash, only a run.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Ok another quick question, seeing as I'm a layman.

If I'm in the middle of a run, does shield come up slower compared to walking and then shielding?

 

[Pazx]

Ok another quick question, seeing as I'm a layman.

If I'm in the middle of a run, does shield come up slower compared to walking and then shielding?

Shields come up on frame 1 whether you are walking or running, but you can't shield when you're dashing (the start of your run).

 

[RomanceDawn]

Shields come up on frame 1 whether you are walking or running, but you can't shield when you're dashing (the start of your run).

Aha! Thank you! And you explained it while taking into account the last couple posts thanks!

Makes a lot of sense now. Sometimes when I'm reasonably close to a projectile user I dash towards them and predict the attack trying to power shield only to get hit. Now I completely understand way.