Game Over - Return of Ganon! Support Thread of the classic Demon King! - (OP stepping down, thread open for take over)

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So basically what Sakurai sort of did with Ridley, couldn't get him quite right as a playable character, so he made him a boss character that could join you like a cpu team mate with animations like a playable character. Except for Ganon it would be as a controllable Final Smash. I suppose I could see that as a compensation type of thing if Sakurai couldn't get him to work as his own fighter...

And if worse comes to worse, Calamity Ganon could be implemented as a stage hazard, just like with Ridley; if a certain player damages Calamity Ganon enough, he'll join that player's side.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Even if Calamity Ganon were a Stage Hazard, Moblin Ganon is so widely different that it wouldn't be odd to have him playable. I mean, if there's supposed at least two Ganons in canon now, well... this wouldn't even be that odd. Not that "having the same person playable twice despite canon" is an issue. Sheik/Zelda, Link/Young Link, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, Mario/Dr. Mario... and I think that's all the proper examples. Giga Bowser doesn't count since he's not normally playable and is a Smash-only character.

I don't think he works that well as a Final Smash, as Ganon has more than enough tools. He's not lacking in the same way Beast Ganon(TP) is. He's got weapons, magic, etc. Ganondorf isn't lacking due to his body shape and even as a clone, still does a lot.

I do agree he should be sped up, but I do think being a slow but powerful melee fighter works too. He's way too slow in Brawl and 4, to the point of making him hard to win with. Doesn't need to a top tier-like speed, just enough for him to be reasonably mobile. Like Bowser or DK-mobile.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think they'd probably sooner include...

Spoiler: Breath of the Wild Boss spoilers

the blight Ganon's

...as stage hazards than Calamity Ganon, they seem more like stage boss material, assuming Sakurai will bring back Stage bosses again.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even if Calamity Ganon were a Stage Hazard, Moblin Ganon is so widely different that it wouldn't be odd to have him playable. I mean, if there's supposed at least two Ganons in canon now, well... this wouldn't even be that odd. Not that "having the same person playable twice despite canon" is an issue. Sheik/Zelda, Link/Young Link, Samus/Zero Suit Samus, Mario/Dr. Mario... and I think that's all the proper examples. Giga Bowser doesn't count since he's not normally playable and is a Smash-only character.

I don't think he works that well as a Final Smash, as Ganon has more than enough tools. He's not lacking in the same way Beast Ganon(TP) is. He's got weapons, magic, etc. Ganondorf isn't lacking due to his body shape and even as a clone, still does a lot.

Still, you can't ignore the chance of Ganon being a Final Smash fighter, since he's basically more powerful than Ganondorf. Just look at Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario, where they're all given properties that are too powerful for them to be standard fighters; Wario-Man gains damage immunity (outside of off-screen damage and eating explosives) and an insane air game; Giga Mac's attacks deal 2x more damage than Little Mac's attacks; Mega Lucario's aura is always at maximum power.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still, you can't ignore the chance of Ganon being a Final Smash fighter, since he's basically more powerful than Ganondorf. Just look at Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario, where they're all given properties that are too powerful for them to be standard fighters; Wario-Man gains damage immunity (outside of off-screen damage and eating explosives) and an insane air game; Giga Mac's attacks deal 2x more damage than Little Mac's attacks; Mega Lucario's aura is always at maximum power.

The reason they become those is that's the only way you're going to see those forms. Ganon existed before Ganondorf. They're entirely different situations.

Nor is there any reason for Ganon to be a super op giant either(he's not exactly a giant in many games, being only really somewhat large, maybe a little more than Bowser). Even his health isn't really all that high, closer to what Link is at full power. Of course it "could" happen, but there's no good reason for it. He's the only form of Ganondorf that's really capable of being a proper fighter. Just like there's at least 2 forms of Link and Zelda that can fight.

 

[Curious Villager]

The likes of Wario-Man, Mega Lucario, Giga Bowser and Giga Mac are powered up clones though, their designed to be broken and most likely didn't take as long to develop as regular clones. Ganon on the other hand, wouldn't work as well as a powered up clone, which means that he would require a unique moveset instead and time and resources spend developing a unique moveset for what would only be used for a 10 second Final Smash? You might as well make him his own playable character at that point. (plus something screams irony when the main character is less unique and developed than his own Final Smash.)

 

[P.Kay]

As much as I'd love for Ganon to be put into Smash, I don't think the chances of it happening are very high.

If he were to be put in the game, it would have been done already (Brawl or Melee most likely), he doesn't seem to be featured in many Zelda games with a prominent role and seems to only really make cameos (though I could be wrong, I'm not too into the Zelda series). I believe he has great moveset potential. Basing this on the move set (that you can see on the first post of this thread), he is very different from Ganondorf and can stand out. This is similar to Zelda and Shiek.

I hope that he gets put into Smash, he would be really fun!

 

[Curious Villager]

As much as I'd love for Ganon to be put into Smash, I don't think the chances of it happening are very high.

If he were to be put in the game, it would have been done already (Brawl or Melee most likely), he doesn't seem to be featured in many Zelda games with a prominent role and seems to only really make cameos (though I could be wrong, I'm not too into the Zelda series). I believe he has great moveset potential. Basing this on the move set (that you can see on the first post of this thread), he is very different from Ganondorf and can stand out. This is similar to Zelda and Shiek.

I hope that he gets put into Smash, he would be really fun!

I suppose it would depend on wether or not Sakurai would consider A Link Between Worlds to be recent enough to consider much representation for Smash Switch (Spirit Tracks was apparently new enough to warrant a stage, new move and trophies etc)

I agree that Ganon doesn't really have the best of chances and his support was founded (or at least, more vocally) fairly recently if I recall (like around the time A Link Between Worlds came out) so he didn't really have as much time to enjoy much support for Smash as most other Zelda characters did.

Eitherway, I'm happy to hear that you wish to support him anyway, thank you. ^^

 

[Burruni]

Give me a Wizpig, ninty.
Give me some trident and magic clunky bro that'll be a bottom tier and I'll love him all the same.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Give me a Wizpig, ninty.
Give me some trident and magic clunky bro that'll be a bottom tier and I'll love him all the same.

Remind me to mod a trident onto Zelda then.

But yeah, sometimes just having the character is fun enough. I love playing as Brawl Ganondorf regardless of tiers. Hell, Pichu too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Calamity Ganon still counts more for a classic Ganon appearance than Ganondorf if anything. So it's not that only ALBW has any grounding water for Ganon to appear in Smash Bros. (even though I do think it's best for Ganon to be based on that appearance). He's also been present in pretty much all the newer Zelda games that aren't remakes. After Impa, he's making the most steady appearances in the Zelda games outside of Link and Zelda. So am totally down for both to appear in Smash to flesh out the Zelda series further.

After King Dedede, there really haven't been new heavy weight villains. And having both Ganon and King K.Rool would fix that tremendously. I imagine both being heavier than Bowser easily. So having two super heavy weights this time might compensate slightly for all these damn light weights running around.

 

[Curious Villager]

Calamity Ganon still counts more for a classic Ganon appearance than Ganondorf if anything. So it's not that only ALBW has any grounding water for Ganon to appear in Smash Bros. (even though I do think it's best for Ganon to be based on that appearance). He's also been present in pretty much all the newer Zelda games that aren't remakes. After Impa, he's making the most steady appearances in the Zelda games outside of Link and Zelda. So am totally down for both to appear in Smash to flesh out the Zelda series further.

After King Dedede, there really haven't been new heavy weight villains. And having both Ganon and King K.Rool would fix that tremendously. I imagine both being heavier than Bowser easily. So having two super heavy weights this time might compensate slightly for all these damn light weights running around.

If anything, I think Breath of the Wild finally gave Ganon a good Final Smash material in Calamity Ganon, since I recall people having some troubles in coming up for a Final Smash idea for Ganon since he was already kind of treated as an "Ultimate Form" of Ganon and with the appearance of Calamity Ganon and the lore behind it going full on power, it seems like a suitable Final Smash for Ganon to use.

Also yes, I'd like to see more heavyweights in Smash too.

 

[Oddball]

I'd love to see the big blue pig Ganon appear in Smash. I'd actually like him more than Ganondorf.

Here's two random, not very well thought out ideas for possible Final Smashes for the guy.

Dark World: Ganon hold a glowing red Triforce above his head. The background shifts to erupting volcanoes, fire rains from the sky, the screen shakes, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria! Maybe he even gets a glowing power-up during this or all the other play characters shrink of weaken or something.

Dark Sacrifice: Based on his Agahnim appearances in Link to the past. He magically traps whoever the closest opponent is (or maybe even multiples) they go into their fallen on the ground pose and levitate towards him at which point he does his Zap with lightning, drain their life energy thing. Maybe even have them start to flicker away before the screen goes dark, we hear Ganon's laugh, and then they come crashing down from the sky or some such.

Like I said, not very well thought out but maybe somebody can run with it.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I don't like the idea of him simply using some smalltime magic for his attacks like tiny fireballs. He needs some new, powerful magic that makes him scary.

Things like, throwing balls of lightning, or casting gigantic lightning strikes (like Agahnim does). He should make lava erupt from the earth, or make meteors fall from the heavens. Earthquakes, hurricanes, floods. His magic should be calamitous and highly powerful and let everyone know why he is feared.

His Final Smash should be him transforming into Calamity Ganon from Breath of the Wild. He just becomes this massive unspeakable serpentine beast who blows giant flames and lays siege to everything.

 

[Arcadenik]

So... Nintendo remade Metroid II for the 3DS.

It would be interesting if Nintendo remade Zelda II or made a sequel to that game. Link can jump manually again in Breath of the Wild... and Hyrule is so huge again, with many mountains and forests. There is even a maze island too!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The likes of Wario-Man, Mega Lucario, Giga Bowser and Giga Mac are powered up clones though, their designed to be broken and most likely didn't take as long to develop as regular clones. Ganon on the other hand, wouldn't work as well as a powered up clone, which means that he would require a unique moveset instead and time and resources spend developing a unique moveset for what would only be used for a 10 second Final Smash? You might as well make him his own playable character at that point. (plus something screams irony when the main character is less unique and developed than his own Final Smash.)

Well, if Ganondorf ever gets a huge moveset overhaul and ends up utilizing the same kind of moveset as Ganon, then seeing Ganon be a Final Smash fighter would probably make more sense.

 

[Pacack]

I definitely support the Demon King.

 

[Tortilla Noggin]

I definitely support the Demon King.

I must confess, half the time I keep briefly misreading Demon King as "Demon Kong".

I ought to be careful with this, because, knowing how it went for Ganondorf, saying this would probably lead to Ganon getting in as some sort of Donkey Kong semi-clone.

 

[PsychoJosh]

I don't like the idea of "Final Smash fighters" in general. I don't like that you can only play as these completely unique characters for like ten seconds at a time.

I'd rather that all Final Smashes were "minigame"-style or "cinematic" style. Making them simply a larger and more powerful version of a fighter you can only play for a few seconds is just lame and uncreative.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't like the idea of "Final Smash fighters" in general. I don't like that you can only play as these completely unique characters for like ten seconds at a time.

I'd rather that all Final Smashes were "minigame"-style or "cinematic" style. Making them simply a larger and more powerful version of a fighter you can only play for a few seconds is just lame and uncreative.

Amusingly, Super Mushrooms and Poison Mushrooms only last for about 10 seconds as well, but at least you can extend their duration. You don't get anything like that for a Final Smash transformation though, so if Ganon does somehow end up as a Final Smash fighter, at least give the transformation a longer duration; I would say around 20 seconds, but some may find that to be overkill.

 

[DJ3DS]

I'd like to see Ganon in Smash. In particular, I'd like to see him in with particular emphasis on a certain mechanic I think would be really interesting - Fire Keese.

Specifically, I'd like it as his neutral B, and I'd like it to work as follows. Every 30 seconds or so, a fiery bat spawns around Ganon. Up to 3 can spawn at any given time. Pressing B will make the top most one fly at and attack the nearest opponent for 1% damage, minimal stun, and this can be done at any point regardless of whether Ganon is in hitstun or hitlag.

The uses for this move for a skilled player could be really interesting:
- Combo Starter - Rush in after the bat and punish whichever reaction they take
- Combo Breaker - No 0-Death on a Ganon who has saved these up wisely
- Combo Extender - Use the bats to add additional hitstun to the end of attacks that allow you to combo more. You could even use multiple bats dependent on what you want to combo into! For example, a Ganon could do the following dependent on how many Keese he has:

Jab -> Bat -> Tilt, Special
Jab -> Bat -> Bat -> Smash

Really interesting, tactical mechanic. The effects it could have on the flow of the match would be really interesting too.

If you want a parallel to this, the mechanic of Batman's character special in the Injustice games (where he uses mechanical bats) is pretty much this exact mechanic and where I got the inspiration from.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Oh I support Classic Ganon and his massive trident as well, he is another of my most wanted characters since Smash 4.
He's big, even if you make it Bowser-like big, he still has longer arms and a huge trident, theorically he would be able to hit a huge amount of space with just one attack... that could be a bit unbalanced, but I'm sure there is a way to implement him without making him broken.

 

[Deleted member]

I love this idea of the original Ganon (O.G., lol) to be implemented into an actual character rather than just a final smash. However, I think your idea might be a little OP. Potentially this new Ganon could lead to a character stronger than Ganondorf that also has more range. Viewing it from that perspective already sounds OP without even going into the moveset. (Plus, they would need to make a new final smash for Ganondorf, and...honestly, what could that even be, the triforce of ****ing power?!) Don't get me wrong, I support the idea of putting Ganon in the game, but I don't want him to be broken like Cloud. Or Corrin. Or Bayonetta. Or practically all of the ****ing DLC. Cruel.

I'd like to see Ganon in Smash. In particular, I'd like to see him in with particular emphasis on a certain mechanic I think would be really interesting - Fire Keese.

Specifically, I'd like it as his neutral B, and I'd like it to work as follows. Every 30 seconds or so, a fiery bat spawns around Ganon. Up to 3 can spawn at any given time. Pressing B will make the top most one fly at and attack the nearest opponent for 1% damage, minimal stun, and this can be done at any point regardless of whether Ganon is in hitstun or hitlag.

I think 30 seconds is too long. Try to think of all the action that happens in 30 seconds during a match. Maybe 15-20 seconds or even 10 seconds if you think about the little effect it has on the opponent. Cruel.

 

[Curious Villager]

Ganondorf can use his Dark Horse for his Final Smash if it needs to be changed.

I mean, he's used it before in battle in Twilight Princess and his Phantom form used it too in Ocarina of time if that counts.

As for his power, I'd think he'd be the type of character who would have a lot of end lag in his moves, for those who've played A Link Between Worlds and fought Yuga Ganon in that game, the way he thrust's his Trident is about how I'd imagine his charge and end lag animations to be like in Smash. He might need some super armor to compensate for that though, otherwise he'd be a walking punching bag....

Perhaps Ganondorf should probably get back his old Melee stats, while Ganon takes his Smash 4 stats instead.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Considering Beast Ganon(TP) and Moblin Ganon are entirely different, it wouldn't even matter anyway. It could just be FSA Ganon(who is apparently an entirely different one or something) and justify it that way.

Kind of like with Zelda/Sheik, or Samus/Zero Suit Samus.

I honestly don't think the horse fits as well as his current Brawl-style moveset. I think Beast Ganon works perfectly. However, if they use a different version of Ganondorf, then changing his Final Smash feels more logical. Right now, it fits what he does(which to be honest, he steals the plot of TP and gives you an epic battle). In Brawl, he actually was important to the overall main plot(and stole some of the glory from Bowser too!). He also isn't all that cunning in TP, so using one of the Ganon forms that clearly is more physical than tactical makes some sense.

Ganon, imo, feels like he'd word great as a heavy but tactical character. I don't know if they have any intention of giving us a different Ganondorf as is, but his stats do fit his design too. He's not severely fast by any means in TP, being way more physical. While it's true he has a horse, he's also the flattest he's ever been... much like his version of Ganon this time.

Anyway, I feel Ganon works better as a heavy weapons/magic user, almost akin to like an Ike/Zelda fusion of sorts(albeit with way more differences). I do see the point about having Ganon and Ganondorf have more unique stats, as that's the case with the other Zelda series counterparts. Ganon can be faster, as shown in his Puppet variation in WW and he's not terribly slow in OOT either, plus the teleport spam in ALttP and just him in general are hardly slow by design. I mean, more Mario speed, if anything(although to be fair, Donkey Kong and Bowser aren't even that slow either. They're actually pretty mobile, somewhat more than freaking Zelda too. Only Ganondorf in 4 is severely slow to the point of ridiculousness. To be fair, though, his battle style fits and he's basically a tank at times. You can just slowly walk through attacks and kick them right off the screen. Doesn't do enough in competitive play, but it does fit his brutal design in TP).

 

[Curious Villager]

I mean, I'd imagine the horse would probably more or less serve the same purpose as Beast Ganon does. Ganondorf summons it, paralyzes any opponents nearby and then charges through them (Maybe even bring those ghost guys he summoned in that battle in Twilight Princess along with him too to cover a bit more space) But it's an idea if Ganondorf's Final Smash is really one of the main hurdles of holding Ganon back from Smash I suppose. If Sakurai doesn't care than alright.

Overall, I feel like Ganondorf should be a bit faster and lighter (Kind of like how he was in Melee if I recall), I think Twilight Princess was the only time where he was portrayed as more of a slow, heavy hitter. In Wind Waker he had a bit more mobility, being able to jump up high and with quick sword swings and all (and in Ocarina of Time he could pretty much float around entirely but I guess that's something else entirely, he did have that ground punch move though)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The only difference between OOT and TP's versions is one legitimately has a sword and one has more armor. Both are TP additions. They're more or less the same character entirely due to Ganondorf never aging.

Ganondorf in WW is when he purposely bided his time, which also gave him tons of time to think of new strategies and moves. He's nowhere near the same idea, and would make sense as his own separate character.

Only OOT Ganondorf is really that fast, while TP Ganondorf is actually a pretty slow character. The character speeds are pretty accurate. I think going back to OOT Ganondorf for a Melee moveset has some logic to it, but only if another Ganondorf who is still similar to the OOT/TP versions doesn't come out and Link and Zelda gets new redesigns. Also, he's not even that fast in OOT either. All of that is magical flight. He's just somewhat faster than the TP version at best. Ganon is even faster than him.

The only reason he was fast in Melee was due to being a clone. It wasn't all that in-character to begin with till Brawl, which fit his personality better. It's not even the special moves(which only Dark Dive is somewhat illogical at best. He knows how to kick and punch anyway, and having super powerful moves makes sense. Gerudo Dragon was a bit weird, but that was a clone thing that got rectified in Brawl).

WW Ganondorf(also known as Toon Ganondorf to some) is perfect as a dual-wielding agile character more akin to Greninja/Sheik/Zero Suit Samus and would be a bad replacement for regular Ganondorf unless they intentionally wanted to remove the old moveset. Ganondorf is a very popular fighter with his current design(I agree he should be sped up, but maybe just a bit more in his TP design. Like, it doesn't need to be Bowser fast, but a little more so his running isn't slower than molasses in January).

 

[Diddy Kong]

He wasn't fast in Melee at all. More similar in speed to the likes of say, Donkey Kong. He's significantly slower than Captain Falcon, and the physics in Melee where just a lot faster.

I also disagree that Toon Ganondorf should be agile. Cause he's not in Wind Waker. He would just have fast attacks with long range and good strings, making him good at defensive counter play. At least that's how I imagine him.

 

[Curious Villager]

I mean, compared to his Brawl and Smash 4 incarnation, wasn't he the fastest in Melee? I don't quite remember as I haven't really played as much with him though.

 

[PsychoJosh]

As I said earlier, Ganon's powers should revolve around cataclysmic, destructive magic. Lightning, fire, tornadoes, floods, lava, meteors, blizzards! His magic should be inimical to all life.

I was trying to think of a mechanic for him, similar to Dormammu's creation/destruction spells in Marvel vs. Capcom 3. Basically he'd have a move or mechanic called "Omen of Calamity" where he stocks up on magical spells, and he can spend them on a variety of different destructive magic. He'd have moves that cost 3 spells, moves that cost 6, and one move that costs 9 spells.

The opponent must not let him get to 9 spells, or certain doom will befall the land. A 9-spell move basically causes a miniature apocalypse, like causing a volcano to erupt and spew lava everywhere or meteors to fall and bombard the stage. Basically he is a powerful and chaotic fighter who can quickly spiral out of control if the opponent doesn't know exactly what they're doing when they fight him.

Basically whenever Ganon does stuff this should be playing in your head.

 

[Oddball]

I did a bunch of Ganon color choices.
What can I say? Some people like making move sets, I like doing the color thing.

That and I'm really not that good at coming up with moves.

So, if you had to narrow it down to only eight or so, which ones would you most prefer?... or do you just think all my choices suck?

Spoiler

 

[Tortilla Noggin]

I did a bunch of Ganon color choices.
What can I say? Some people like making move sets, I like doing the color thing.

That and I'm really not that good at coming up with moves.

So, if you had to narrow it down to only eight or so, which ones would you most prefer?... or do you just think all my choices suck?

Spoiler

I like all of these, honestly. It's especially nice to see references to Captain N, and the old The Legend of Zelda cartoon series.

Narrowing it down to only eight, if we were to assume that Ganon would indeed make it into Smash Switch, then I feel that some good picks would be (using your own labelling);

Ganon
Ganondorf
Original Zelda
BS Zelda
Puppet Ganon
Red Moblin
Wind Waker Moblin
Link Between Worlds Moblin

These would provide a nice spread of colours and references that they'd be likely to make*, but there are so many good choices that it was tough to narrow it down.

*I don't know if it's the same now, but about a decade ago, they tended towards trying to brush the licensed productions from the 1980s under the rug, in spite of how incredibly effective they were at introducing people to Nintendo's brands regardless of their faithfulness to the source-material (it was something that I somewhat remember being implied when Shout! Factory obtained the license to make DVD box-sets of them). Perhaps nowadays they might view it differently, though, with their recently-revised approach to licensing which is now much more similar to back then.

 

[Curious Villager]

Hey, Smashified just made a trophy for Ganon, go check it out!

 

[Pacack]

Hey, Smashified just made a trophy for Ganon, go check it out!

My only criticism is...why is he purple?

 

[Oddball]

It's not bad, but I don't think it really captures the character well.

 

[Curious Villager]

My only criticism is...why is he purple?

Yeah I'm not sure why they went with purple either.

I suppose his artwork for a Link to the past was kind off a very dark purple or blue-ish colour but still, he was mostly blue...

It's apparently the highest poly model they've made yet, which makes me wonder why they didn't just make a "smashified" render for him instead, but I suppose it's nice to see him in full 3 dimensions.

 

[Krysco]

I fully support the inclusion of Ganon. And Toon Ganondorf. And basically any additional incarnations of the King of Evil. Can never have enough Ganon. Plus, if Ganon or Toon Ganondorf got in, we'd actually have an accurate representation of the character in Smash.

 

[Oddball]

So,if Ganon did get in the game, what kind of stage would you like to see him have?

I'm rather partial to putting him into a level based on the Pyramid of Power from Link to the Past.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So,if Ganon did get in the game, what kind of stage would you like to see him have?

I'm rather partial to putting him into a level based on the Pyramid of Power from Link to the Past.

That or the top of Hyrule Castle in OOT that has fire around it. Maybe it could be added as an alternate palette to regular Hyrule Castle(Smash 64).

 

[NintenRob]

I'd be OK with Ganon, if we were to get another version of an existing character, he would be my first choice. But I'd rather a more unique Ganondorf with a more thought out Ganon Final Smash.

But honestly, I do want to see a classic pig Ganon in the Zelda games alongside Ganondorf, see more of that transformation. My biggest disappointment from botw aside from dungeons, is Ganon got no character.

I like Ganon when he's a manipulative ******* with absolute power and hungers for more Power, and with evil laugh. That's why I generally prefer him in human form, but he was fine in Alttp and his brief appearance in Four Swords Adventure.

With Ganondorf, what design do you want to see in Smash 5? Tp, oot, hw or something new based on botw.