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Game and Watch Matchup Export: Falco

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Aug 6, 2008
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Even if you miss the tech on a cg -> spike (onstage), I believe you can still stand up, roll, or attack before falco can try jabbing you off the ground if he attempts this at all.

I would actually consider battlefield, final destination, and smashville as your top three bans. Battlefield or smashville being a higher priority over final destination. Yes, G&W probably benefits from platform play, but they really expand falco's spots to land on the stage and ease his recovery. Its sort of hard to explain.

Final destination is a double edge sword. Falco sucks in the air and wants to get to the ground as quickly as possible to use superior defensive options. If Falco ever gets send high up into the air, but still close to the stage, Falco can mix-up his recovery on smashville or battlefield by using his 2nd jump and phantasm and getting to a platform. Despite some lag, its usually small enough to get himself directly onto the stage and into a better position to fight back.

On final destination, Falco loses this mix-up option in his recovery. If falco ever tried to phantasm deep and up high on FD, he would get punished in the serious landing lag and helpless animation when falling, obvious. And, falco cannot directly challenge G&W's aerials when spaced and not only this, but G&W can space his moves to hit falco and eat through an airdodge attempt.

In short, FD makes recovery difficult for falco and makes it a long process of getting back to the stage itself and into a fighting position. Once falco gets to a platform on SV or BF (unless you are fast enough to hit him which can be difficult if you are covering the wrong options when he uses it), then falco is relatively safe and its much easier to work getting on the stage than from the ledge.

To me, you are bound to play on BF, SV, or FD the first round. If falco wins on say BF, by round three you could try banning SV since rules say you cannot go back to the stage you won on. This way, FD is the better stage out of them all I say.

Although, I am not sure how much G&W relies upon platform play though. But this is just my thoughts and I hate going to FD as Falco against most characters for that lack of recovery options.

Does G&W have any sort of option to hit falco for using his rapid jab? G&W can get out by using UpB, but I think it doesn't help much. You get sent in the air which is a bad spot. If you come down the keyblade, you get ruined for landing lag. If you drift towards the ledge, you are still in a bad spot for getting back on stage. Although, falco cannot really challenge G&W on the ledge very much, so its a safe get away point with bad hopes of getting back on stage though. I dunno really.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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I think platforms are THE thing with GW. I don't think he can pull it off without them. They are just too good.
And about the jab, unless I can read well in advance and ready my SDI, I just retreat. There is almost nothing we can do about it. And key doesn't suffer from landing lag after if you slowfall during the correct spot. G&W is very good at landing as you always have to worry about the key, he still has his jump and so on. I'd say if you get chaingrabbed by Falco a lot, then you really are in such a bad position you really need to outplay them to win, Falcos defensive options are just too good at such lead.
That's why I also suggest getting a lead and crouching near the ledge. Falco can't laser you. Falco can't sideB you as you are near the ledge and Falco sucks at approaching.
And either I am bad at spacing or something but Falcos bair seems to always at least trade with most of our aerials, mostly fair.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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The only problem with FD would be getting you off stage. We get shut down so hard there..

And LzR, most Falcos (at least that I play) know the distance
Of phantasm and can reliably do it into a jab or a grab.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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If they phantasm you can easily react to it and kill them for it. If they are far away, what else could they do? It's easy to react to it if you know it's their only option. When they get closer, they can't phantasm anymore, but still have to get close to you.
 

SFA Smiley

The SFA King
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If they phantasm you can easily react to it and kill them for it. If they are far away, what else could they do? It's easy to react to it if you know it's their only option. When they get closer, they can't phantasm anymore, but still have to get close to you.
Honestly I have a hard time punishing that move even when I know its coming =/

probably because I don't account for the startup of the move.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
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I guess that's where my years of Falco experience comes in. If you can expect it it's damn easy to react to. You can see as Falco jumps, which is like 6 frames? Then he does sideB which is like 15 frames or so. You got over 20 frames to react. When Falco jumps at long range in that position, immediately shield, if he doesn't sideB, nothing happens, if he does, free punish.
 
Joined
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The only problem with FD would be getting you off stage. We get shut down so hard there..

And LzR, most Falcos (at least that I play) know the distance
Of phantasm and can reliably do it into a jab or a grab.
I honestly do not understand why FD gets you shut down any worse than say smashville or battlefield. The only difference between SV, BF, or FD in neutral would be if you somehow used the platforms to approach or lure in falco to get closer.

Say falco is on the ground. Playing against falco in this position is the same on FD as it is in BF and SV if no platforms are used. Even if you use the platforms, G&W is still relatively shut down, but it just adds another element to the game of options for both you and for a falco to shut down.

Anyway, its probably all down to opinion in the end for such stage selection.
And key doesn't suffer from landing lag after if you slowfall during the correct spot. G&W is very good at landing as you always have to worry about the key, he still has his jump and so on.

That's why I also suggest getting a lead and crouching near the ledge. Falco can't laser you. Falco can't sideB you as you are near the ledge and Falco sucks at approaching.
And either I am bad at spacing or something but Falcos bair seems to always at least trade with most of our aerials, mostly fair.
I do know for certain that Bair will hit G&W out of his dair if he manages to come in from either the left or the right. Which Falco can wait for G&W to do something and then retaliate in either G&Ws cooldown lag by staying close. The only thing Falco cannot really do is stay close to G&W and cover the potential for G&W to simply back off. As soon as G&W backs off away from Falco, then if falco attempts to get close to G&W in the air, he'll be outspaced by G&Ws aerials. Although, this is not such a bad thing since you get cornered on the edge.

Also, I am a bit confused on why crouching and expecting a falco to phantasm keeps getting brought up. Phantasm is only one thing Falco could ever do. If you are crouching, then you are immobile and an easy target for baiting. Falco has plenty of mix-ups as well to win those confrontations. Say he runs up and dashes at you. He can either SH airdodge behind you (or pull back and land in front againt), shield, dodge in place, roll behind you, roll backwards, stop out of your range, or dash attack. Its impossible for G&W to cover all these options and any one of them solicites a bait for G&W. Even if you do not fall for it, you might simply get grabbed or dash attacked anyway. And there are even more options than this once you add in walking, retreating, lasers, phantasm, etc. There are so many ways to safely bait a G&W and only risking an attack every once in awhile when you let your guard down.

Some attempts at crouching should probably be used, but a strategy revolved around crouch camping will only lead to more problems for you since Falco is still clearly in the advantage.
 

-LzR-

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I do not mean crouch camping in the world of crouching like a moron. Just crouch to beat their laser game to make them come to you. Why would that be so bad?
 
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Well, if you looked through this thread you'd see a ton of references to lasers -> G&W responds by crouching -> falco responses with phantasm. It just seemed a bit much without bring up the idea that falco will just respond by baiting you by getting closer.
 

MEOW1337KITTEH

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I honestly do not understand why FD gets you shut down any worse than say smashville or battlefield. The only difference between SV, BF, or FD in neutral would be if you somehow used the platforms to approach or lure in falco to get closer.

Say falco is on the ground. Playing against falco in this position is the same on FD as it is in BF and SV if no platforms are used. Even if you use the platforms, G&W is still relatively shut down, but it just adds another element to the game of options for both you and for a falco to shut down.

Anyway, its probably all down to opinion in the end for such stage selection.
The platforms help us with the main problem of GnW: Approaching.



I do know for certain that Bair will hit G&W out of his dair if he manages to come in from either the left or the right. Which Falco can wait for G&W to do something and then retaliate in either G&Ws cooldown lag by staying close. The only thing Falco cannot really do is stay close to G&W and cover the potential for G&W to simply back off. As soon as G&W backs off away from Falco, then if falco attempts to get close to G&W in the air, he'll be outspaced by G&Ws aerials. Although, this is not such a bad thing since you get cornered on the edge.

Also, I am a bit confused on why crouching and expecting a falco to phantasm keeps getting brought up. Phantasm is only one thing Falco could ever do. If you are crouching, then you are immobile and an easy target for baiting. Falco has plenty of mix-ups as well to win those confrontations. Say he runs up and dashes at you. He can either SH airdodge behind you (or pull back and land in front againt), shield, dodge in place, roll behind you, roll backwards, stop out of your range, or dash attack. Its impossible for G&W to cover all these options and any one of them solicites a bait for G&W. Even if you do not fall for it, you might simply get grabbed or dash attacked anyway. And there are even more options than this once you add in walking, retreating, lasers, phantasm, etc. There are so many ways to safely bait a G&W and only risking an attack every once in awhile when you let your guard down.

Some attempts at crouching should probably be used, but a strategy revolved around crouch camping will only lead to more problems for you since Falco is still clearly in the advantage.
What we are saying is crouching limits your options. You are not renowned for having great approaching options. I'll fix the op to clarify.
 

-LzR-

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Well, if you looked through this thread you'd see a ton of references to lasers -> G&W responds by crouching -> falco responses with phantasm. It just seemed a bit much without bring up the idea that falco will just respond by baiting you by getting closer.
Falco getting closer is exactly the purpose of this. GW is terrible at dancing around the lasers with his slow, overcommiting moves. Of course we don't crouch until he is at jab range.
 

Dexident

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phantasm makes up the majority of my kills on falco. If you can get a good read with u-air on that you can guarantee yourself a U-smash. This is why I like FD because as Xeylode said, it limits their options heavily.

Everyone seeds platforms as the redemption of GW but they can be used by other characters just as well for different reasons. Admittedly I should play more battlefield before I believe that for sure.

But phantasm is probably the move that they need to be most careful using.
 

-LzR-

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A good Falco won't be so easy to kill off a phantasm though. But a bad one, it's so easy you don't even have to try.
 
Y

Yodery

Guest
Bucket a laser and while Falco's running after you, short hop nair.
 
Y

Yodery

Guest
No, I'm just pretending like I know what I'm talking about, don't mind me.
 

Shadow the Past

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What sort of situations do you like to use dtilt in? The only one I can ever think of is edgeguarding, or from a followup from dair.
 

Damittom

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Nope all the time. Idk about specifics in this matchup but in general dtilt is our best ground move. I personally use it as a spacing tool, shield pressure (spaced), or jab to dtilt for a way to make space. It can also be used to catch landings and punish laggy moves. Imo its our third best move

:phone:
 

-LzR-

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You should do that if you have a considerable stocklead. Otherwise he is just gonna hang out below you, wait for a dair and then bair you from the side. There isn't really anything for you to gain for hanging out in the platform except give him more time to figure out your patterns to get that bair in. Of course it's amazing early on to avoid the cg. If you really want to hit you, you can easily get dairs, bairs and stuff in and even if you get grabbed, he got some damage on the way too. Or if the Falco plays it patient and you get hit with lasers to like 30%, it's always better this way than getting chaingrabbed past 30% to dair -> followup.
 
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