flieskiller
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2013
- Messages
- 426
G&W main here, I want to improve the metagame of this character and give the info I find to other people who want to try this low tier, and these are some info I compiled and some things I discovered about him (or things found on the forum and dig up for G&W especially).
My comp is bad, which means my Dolphin emulator is glitchy and there are some visual bugs in the pictures.
Summary (those in bold are important):
• Ledge Grab Distance
• ECB tricks on various stages
• Special attacks information (including up-b horizontal distance)
• Aerial attacks, time for hitboxes
• Throw animation info.
• Access with a single jump to the platforms on Dreamland
• Edgeguard options
• Techs to practice (see ledge cancel aerial)
• Things to never do
Let's start with an important point for new players about G&W:
Only the Fair and Dair can be L-cancelled. Some people think the turtle can, some think the parachute can, but only the 2 mentionned.
This point aside, let's move the the more advanced stuff I explored about this character.
To begin with, one of the best things about Mr. Game and Watch (excluding attacks):
His Ledge grab distance.
To compensate the bad shield, horrible sidestep dodge, bad roll dodge and 4 frames item grab, he has the best ledge grab of the game. If he sweetspots the ledge, he can't be hit by anything (Bowser flames might be the only exception!).
Images with example in the spoiler:
ECB (Environment Collision Box) on Game & Watch
All characters, if their ECB goes above a surface, then their ECB hits the ground beneath, they will land without any lag, giving the player the option to do any actions 4 frames after, which is faster than a wavedash. More info with lots of examples here
About Game & Watch, there are 2 actions that can use this to quickly land on a platform:
• 1st frame of B-air (the turtle)
• 18th frame of his 2nd jump. He tilts forward, which can be used for lagless landing.
Because of the tiny amount the ECB lowers, not a lot of possibilities is offered for G&W (he can't do anything on the basic stage of Pokémon Stadium). However, there are still multiple places that can be used with these 2 actions. I've compiled some places that can be used in stages used competitively.
-Any ledges
drop, total frame 23, jump back. (just practice and jump until the timing is there. Can be used to shield drop, then return back and grab shielding opponent expecting an aerial)
-Battlefield
after jump, frame 17 b-air. Can also do the same thing from 1st platform to highest because they have the same distance as the ground and 1st platform.
-Yoshi Story
first to second platform, run off the ledge, frame 12 double jump
after jump, frame 14 b-air from this specific place (in spoiler, purple G&W)
![]()
-Fountain of Dreams
to middle platform: after jump, frame 9 , second jump
-Dreamland
first to second platform, run off the ledge, frame 9 jump, frame 17 b-air
Special attacks information:
neutral B (Chef, throw BACON!):
Taken from hitboxes and frame data page:
1st sausage release: 18
Pan hits: 18-21
Window for next B hit: 20-34
HOWEVER: If a Bacon is released at frame 20 or 21, the same hitbox on the pan will stay active until the next bacon is thrown instead of just a few frames, which means a character will get hit if he gets close of the pan before the next bacon pops out. However, the hitbox of the pan staying there is the same, not a new one at the same place, so a character that gets hit by the pan won't get hit by it again! So you must delay your bacon to create a new hitbox or stop throwing bacon.
Up-b (Fireman):
It can be used out of chain grab against Sheik, though it is difficult because the hitbox is on the upper body of G&W. Not recommended on FD.
The point I actually want to say here about this up-b, you can angle this to a very good horizontal distance, but the timing is tight.
I'm sure a lot of people don't know about this, especially because it must be done very quickly. Some might have noticed they could angle it a little, but it can be tilted a lot, comparable to Mario's up-b.
To achieve max horizontal distance, you must still be on the trampolinewhen moving left or right, which is a 2 frame window before you start moving up. You can continue at later to input the left or right on the control stick, but the horizontal distance will be way less farther. Images inside the spoiler (I can't do a video).
down-b (Bucket):
The bucket doesn't absorb on his head, so it's a thing to know against Falco especially, you might receive his laser on your nose thinking you will absorb it.
Bucket attack hits starting at frame 2 in front of G&W, totally disjointed.
Throw animation info:
Uthrow and Bthrow uses the same animation, Dthrow and Fthrow uses the other animation. Learn by heart those two pairs to mix the opponent. For instance, if you grab a spacie at low percent close to the ledge but behind the ledge, Uthrow is used for chain grab, so you can b-throw, and the same animation will be used, but the opponent will be sent outside the stage, especially if his DI was toward the ledge, thinking it was an Uthrow. He will be sent very low, so you can go edgeguard with a Fair or two and KO him early.
Aerial attacks, time for hitboxes
in frames:
u-air: 8
f-air: 11
b-air: 11
d-air: 13
n-air: 21
d-air has a 2 frames hitbox when hitting the ground.
b-air has a 1 frame hitbox when hitting the ground, even if the hitbox of the turtle is finished, so it can be a surprise hit against an opponent that stop his shield at the wrong time.
single jump to the platforms on Dreamland:
To any G&W players checking movement possibilities, Dreamland has platforms too high to reach with a single jump. It's because the ECB of the later part of the animation of the jump is going too low for G&W to land. However, by doing a u-air, n-air or d-air, you can still land on the platform with 1 jump (and doing a ledge cancel too! More about ledge cancel below). With this, you can still keep your 2nd jump to recover if your tech chase on the platform goes bad.
Edgeguard options against opponent sweetspotting the ledge:
After a ledge cancel on the edge of the stage, if you look toward the stage: there is 14 frames before G&W goes low enough to grab the ledge (at 15th frame), so jump before this frame window.
best (hit covering the edge):
• d-tilt
• d-air
• d-smash. It's better than the usable category, but there are better options in gereral.
• n-air, but you leave the stage, so the followup aren't existant compared to others if the opponent is at low percentage.
usable (hit right above the edge, surely miss on sweetspot recovery)
• b-air, the part close of G&W. Can combine with a ledge cancel to d-air meteor attack to kill the opponent.
• f-tilt
Note: F-smash is great against a recovering Falcon from above, it goes far, great knockback and lingering hitbox.
Techs to practice:
• Ledge Cancel aerial attacks: With his aerial mobility, below average falling speed and laggy aerials when landing, his is one of the biggest candidate to use Ledge cancel! After an air attack, land, and with the momentum, go off the ledge. You will return lag-free in the air, ready to do another aerial or go do other things.
To practice this in a condensed way, there are some few possibilities:
-On any ledges, do a Fair, ledge cancel, jump and move back, do another aerial, ledge cancel on the other side of the ledge, and repeat with both sides.
-On battlefield, go below the first platform. Jump with an u-air. Ledge cancel, jump immediatly with another u-air. Go to the highest platform, ledge cancel again and finally jump and do a n-air/f-air.
-On the ledge of the stage, to cover both options of spacies (Illusion or up-b). D-air on the ledge, ledge cancel then jump forward and f-air where they would up-b and charge their fire, then fast fall sweet spot recover with up-b.
Note: You can't ledge cancel his Bacon (neutral B), he will stick on the platform and doesn't fall off it.
• Multiple jabs, without entering the Rapid Jab state (with flashing lights and stuff). The timings are:
frame 3-16, enter rapid jab (BAD)
frame 17, nothing
frame 18+, single jab
• d-throw to n-air. You have a limited amount of time to jump and do a n-air. You can do other aerials, but n-air is the simplest, hits above you if the d-throw goes high (like against a Peach at 90%+)
The amount of frames is relative to the character and percentage he is (it might be just %)? Some quick tests shown me a Marth at 90% is 7 frames, a Peach at 50% is 5 frames etc. If the percentage of the opponent is too low, the n-air won't come up in time (like a Peach at 25%), so you should use a full hop f-air instead.
To see if you hit fast enough, you can go in training mode and check the combo counter when doing the throw to aerial (or use 20XX with the timer as combo timer option).
• Against a spacie, when he is around 5-6%, d-tilt to grab/JC grab. You won't have time to grab if the spacie is at 0% and he gets hit by d-tilt.
• Clank dash attack against smash attacks.
Against multiple smash attacks (Marth f-smash is hard to clank because of how it can hits G&W arm, multiple hits smashes are dangerous etc.), you can clank your dash attack against the opponent. Your attack being the weakest, you recover the fastest from it, so you can use a d-tilt or a grab as followup/punish
• Learn the u-tilt hitbox.
G&W Can act at the same time as the flag disappear, so you can use the 2nd half to have a quick followup right after.
Things to never do:
• Sidestep roll (L/R + down). He has the worst in the game, just don't.
• Try to catch a turnip thrown at you when you're on the ground. His 4 frames to grab an item combined with below average item detection box makes it almost impossible to grab one. You're better to catch it in the air if you really want to.
• Full shield if the shield isn't fully charged. After any attacks, it goes too small to block anything around G&W. Learning to use light shield is extremely important. Moving the shield isn't good compared to a lot of other characters, but it can decide between get shield-stabbed and blocking with this character.
• Bucket against a spacie if he isn't at the opposite side of the stage. The huge lag will make you get punished if they're not far. If you want to fill your bucket, you can run away to bait some lasers, then turn around and bucket them.
• Dash cancel grab. He will stop moving and use the slower grab. Use a Jump Cancel grab instead If you want a good grab.
My comp is bad, which means my Dolphin emulator is glitchy and there are some visual bugs in the pictures.
Summary (those in bold are important):
• Ledge Grab Distance
• ECB tricks on various stages
• Special attacks information (including up-b horizontal distance)
• Aerial attacks, time for hitboxes
• Throw animation info.
• Access with a single jump to the platforms on Dreamland
• Edgeguard options
• Techs to practice (see ledge cancel aerial)
• Things to never do
Let's start with an important point for new players about G&W:
Only the Fair and Dair can be L-cancelled. Some people think the turtle can, some think the parachute can, but only the 2 mentionned.
This point aside, let's move the the more advanced stuff I explored about this character.
To begin with, one of the best things about Mr. Game and Watch (excluding attacks):
His Ledge grab distance.
To compensate the bad shield, horrible sidestep dodge, bad roll dodge and 4 frames item grab, he has the best ledge grab of the game. If he sweetspots the ledge, he can't be hit by anything (Bowser flames might be the only exception!).
Images with example in the spoiler:
First, what makes a character grab the ledge? There are 2 Ledge Grab Box (LGB) that are above all characters. Depends of the direction the character is looking, one of them is active to grab the ledge. In some situations, like during Link and Captain Falcon's up-b for instance, both boxes are active (so you can grab the ledge from behind). This doesn't work for G&W though! Can't grab from behind with his up-b.
![]()
In this picture, the two boxes inside the yellow circle are what they're used to grab the ledge. There is Fox next to him to compare how higher and larger it is, even if G&W is a smaller character.
picture without the circle
![]()
And G&W/Fox overlapping for easier comparison
![]()
To grab the ledge (like a wavedash to edge hog for instance), it's like for fast falling: the moment you reach the apex of the jump, you can start to fast fall, grab ledge.
I'll show an example of real sweetspotting the ledge. I grab the ledge, then fast fall 35 frames and moving left. The distance only G&W can recover from there
![]()
After that, I up-b, reaching max height. As seen in the picture below, the frame before grabbing the ledge, the LGB touches the red side of FD, which means he will grab it.
![]()
With pictures without Develop visuals activated. It looks very far.
![]()
And G&W shown to grab the ledge with invulnerability the next frame.
![]()
In this picture, the two boxes inside the yellow circle are what they're used to grab the ledge. There is Fox next to him to compare how higher and larger it is, even if G&W is a smaller character.
picture without the circle
And G&W/Fox overlapping for easier comparison
To grab the ledge (like a wavedash to edge hog for instance), it's like for fast falling: the moment you reach the apex of the jump, you can start to fast fall, grab ledge.
I'll show an example of real sweetspotting the ledge. I grab the ledge, then fast fall 35 frames and moving left. The distance only G&W can recover from there
After that, I up-b, reaching max height. As seen in the picture below, the frame before grabbing the ledge, the LGB touches the red side of FD, which means he will grab it.
With pictures without Develop visuals activated. It looks very far.
And G&W shown to grab the ledge with invulnerability the next frame.
ECB (Environment Collision Box) on Game & Watch
All characters, if their ECB goes above a surface, then their ECB hits the ground beneath, they will land without any lag, giving the player the option to do any actions 4 frames after, which is faster than a wavedash. More info with lots of examples here
About Game & Watch, there are 2 actions that can use this to quickly land on a platform:
• 1st frame of B-air (the turtle)
• 18th frame of his 2nd jump. He tilts forward, which can be used for lagless landing.
Because of the tiny amount the ECB lowers, not a lot of possibilities is offered for G&W (he can't do anything on the basic stage of Pokémon Stadium). However, there are still multiple places that can be used with these 2 actions. I've compiled some places that can be used in stages used competitively.
-Any ledges
drop, total frame 23, jump back. (just practice and jump until the timing is there. Can be used to shield drop, then return back and grab shielding opponent expecting an aerial)
-Battlefield
after jump, frame 17 b-air. Can also do the same thing from 1st platform to highest because they have the same distance as the ground and 1st platform.
-Yoshi Story
first to second platform, run off the ledge, frame 12 double jump
after jump, frame 14 b-air from this specific place (in spoiler, purple G&W)
to middle platform: after jump, frame 9 , second jump
-Dreamland
first to second platform, run off the ledge, frame 9 jump, frame 17 b-air
Special attacks information:
neutral B (Chef, throw BACON!):
Taken from hitboxes and frame data page:
1st sausage release: 18
Pan hits: 18-21
Window for next B hit: 20-34
HOWEVER: If a Bacon is released at frame 20 or 21, the same hitbox on the pan will stay active until the next bacon is thrown instead of just a few frames, which means a character will get hit if he gets close of the pan before the next bacon pops out. However, the hitbox of the pan staying there is the same, not a new one at the same place, so a character that gets hit by the pan won't get hit by it again! So you must delay your bacon to create a new hitbox or stop throwing bacon.
Up-b (Fireman):
It can be used out of chain grab against Sheik, though it is difficult because the hitbox is on the upper body of G&W. Not recommended on FD.
The point I actually want to say here about this up-b, you can angle this to a very good horizontal distance, but the timing is tight.
I'm sure a lot of people don't know about this, especially because it must be done very quickly. Some might have noticed they could angle it a little, but it can be tilted a lot, comparable to Mario's up-b.
To achieve max horizontal distance, you must still be on the trampolinewhen moving left or right, which is a 2 frame window before you start moving up. You can continue at later to input the left or right on the control stick, but the horizontal distance will be way less farther. Images inside the spoiler (I can't do a video).
Here, I have my two G&W next to each other. They both have the same control except the "right" move, so only one of them will move right during the up-b, the other will go the highest possible.
![]()
Both roll to be on the same spot, so the comparison will be more clear
![]()
Now, they're on the same spot both at the 1st frame out of roll. My glitchy Dolphin shows they are at the exact same place.
![]()
Now, up-b. They moved a little but it's no big deal
![]()
Now, as a comparison of final distance
![]()
The difference is pretty big. It looks more impressive in-game though. With this horizontal distance, you can go from the ledge of Battlefield to the platform directly, which is another option great option for him. Another picture with the LGB shown to show the extra horizontal space covered for recovering
![]()
Both roll to be on the same spot, so the comparison will be more clear
Now, they're on the same spot both at the 1st frame out of roll. My glitchy Dolphin shows they are at the exact same place.
Now, up-b. They moved a little but it's no big deal
Now, as a comparison of final distance
The difference is pretty big. It looks more impressive in-game though. With this horizontal distance, you can go from the ledge of Battlefield to the platform directly, which is another option great option for him. Another picture with the LGB shown to show the extra horizontal space covered for recovering
down-b (Bucket):
The bucket doesn't absorb on his head, so it's a thing to know against Falco especially, you might receive his laser on your nose thinking you will absorb it.
Bucket attack hits starting at frame 2 in front of G&W, totally disjointed.
Throw animation info:
Uthrow and Bthrow uses the same animation, Dthrow and Fthrow uses the other animation. Learn by heart those two pairs to mix the opponent. For instance, if you grab a spacie at low percent close to the ledge but behind the ledge, Uthrow is used for chain grab, so you can b-throw, and the same animation will be used, but the opponent will be sent outside the stage, especially if his DI was toward the ledge, thinking it was an Uthrow. He will be sent very low, so you can go edgeguard with a Fair or two and KO him early.
Aerial attacks, time for hitboxes
in frames:
u-air: 8
f-air: 11
b-air: 11
d-air: 13
n-air: 21
d-air has a 2 frames hitbox when hitting the ground.
b-air has a 1 frame hitbox when hitting the ground, even if the hitbox of the turtle is finished, so it can be a surprise hit against an opponent that stop his shield at the wrong time.
single jump to the platforms on Dreamland:
To any G&W players checking movement possibilities, Dreamland has platforms too high to reach with a single jump. It's because the ECB of the later part of the animation of the jump is going too low for G&W to land. However, by doing a u-air, n-air or d-air, you can still land on the platform with 1 jump (and doing a ledge cancel too! More about ledge cancel below). With this, you can still keep your 2nd jump to recover if your tech chase on the platform goes bad.
Edgeguard options against opponent sweetspotting the ledge:
After a ledge cancel on the edge of the stage, if you look toward the stage: there is 14 frames before G&W goes low enough to grab the ledge (at 15th frame), so jump before this frame window.
best (hit covering the edge):
• d-tilt
• d-air
• d-smash. It's better than the usable category, but there are better options in gereral.
• n-air, but you leave the stage, so the followup aren't existant compared to others if the opponent is at low percentage.
usable (hit right above the edge, surely miss on sweetspot recovery)
• b-air, the part close of G&W. Can combine with a ledge cancel to d-air meteor attack to kill the opponent.
• f-tilt
Note: F-smash is great against a recovering Falcon from above, it goes far, great knockback and lingering hitbox.
Techs to practice:
• Ledge Cancel aerial attacks: With his aerial mobility, below average falling speed and laggy aerials when landing, his is one of the biggest candidate to use Ledge cancel! After an air attack, land, and with the momentum, go off the ledge. You will return lag-free in the air, ready to do another aerial or go do other things.
To practice this in a condensed way, there are some few possibilities:
-On any ledges, do a Fair, ledge cancel, jump and move back, do another aerial, ledge cancel on the other side of the ledge, and repeat with both sides.
-On battlefield, go below the first platform. Jump with an u-air. Ledge cancel, jump immediatly with another u-air. Go to the highest platform, ledge cancel again and finally jump and do a n-air/f-air.
-On the ledge of the stage, to cover both options of spacies (Illusion or up-b). D-air on the ledge, ledge cancel then jump forward and f-air where they would up-b and charge their fire, then fast fall sweet spot recover with up-b.
Note: You can't ledge cancel his Bacon (neutral B), he will stick on the platform and doesn't fall off it.
• Multiple jabs, without entering the Rapid Jab state (with flashing lights and stuff). The timings are:
frame 3-16, enter rapid jab (BAD)
frame 17, nothing
frame 18+, single jab
• d-throw to n-air. You have a limited amount of time to jump and do a n-air. You can do other aerials, but n-air is the simplest, hits above you if the d-throw goes high (like against a Peach at 90%+)
The amount of frames is relative to the character and percentage he is (it might be just %)? Some quick tests shown me a Marth at 90% is 7 frames, a Peach at 50% is 5 frames etc. If the percentage of the opponent is too low, the n-air won't come up in time (like a Peach at 25%), so you should use a full hop f-air instead.
To see if you hit fast enough, you can go in training mode and check the combo counter when doing the throw to aerial (or use 20XX with the timer as combo timer option).
• Against a spacie, when he is around 5-6%, d-tilt to grab/JC grab. You won't have time to grab if the spacie is at 0% and he gets hit by d-tilt.
• Clank dash attack against smash attacks.
Against multiple smash attacks (Marth f-smash is hard to clank because of how it can hits G&W arm, multiple hits smashes are dangerous etc.), you can clank your dash attack against the opponent. Your attack being the weakest, you recover the fastest from it, so you can use a d-tilt or a grab as followup/punish
• Learn the u-tilt hitbox.
G&W Can act at the same time as the flag disappear, so you can use the 2nd half to have a quick followup right after.
Things to never do:
• Sidestep roll (L/R + down). He has the worst in the game, just don't.
• Try to catch a turnip thrown at you when you're on the ground. His 4 frames to grab an item combined with below average item detection box makes it almost impossible to grab one. You're better to catch it in the air if you really want to.
• Full shield if the shield isn't fully charged. After any attacks, it goes too small to block anything around G&W. Learning to use light shield is extremely important. Moving the shield isn't good compared to a lot of other characters, but it can decide between get shield-stabbed and blocking with this character.
• Bucket against a spacie if he isn't at the opposite side of the stage. The huge lag will make you get punished if they're not far. If you want to fill your bucket, you can run away to bait some lasers, then turn around and bucket them.
• Dash cancel grab. He will stop moving and use the slower grab. Use a Jump Cancel grab instead If you want a good grab.
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