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Frame Perfect SH FAir>Shine Shield Pressure

BRUJO~

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HeyGuys. I was messing around with debug mode and frame counter, and I realized that Falco's FAir has a really interesting property: If you input FAir on the first airborne frame and do not fastfall, you can get 3 hits to come out in a single short hop and the 3rd comes out on the frame immediately before Falco lands. This IS a one frame input, if you are even one frame late inputting the fair, only 2 hits will come out.

I thought "that's interesting," but ignored it for a long time because FAir isn't that good anyway. BUT, I was thinking about it today, and I realized that it might be useful for shield pressure. I did some calculations, and here is what I found:

Frame Perfect Shine>SH FAir

*Frame 1 – grounded shine input– (HITBOX on frame 1)

Frame 2-3 – stuck in shine

*Frame 4 – jump input

Frame 5-7 - stuck in jump squat

*Frame 8 – forward air input (first airborne frame)

Frame 9-31 - stuck in forward air (HITBOXES on frames 13, 23, 31)

Frame 32-42 – landing lag (assuming it is l-cancelled)


This is significant for a couple of reasons.
  • So long FAir is unstaled, the 3rd hit is -6 on shield. If you shine on the first possible frame, the only characters that can oos punish the landing lag of 3rd hit FAir are Samus, Fox, Bowser, DK, Mario, Doc, and G&W (all of them with Up B oos except for Fox, who punished with Shine oos). Falco and Marth (with shine oos and dolphin slash oos respectively) can clank with the shine if you both are frame perfect. Puff's rest oos technically will clank with shine as well, but I don't think anyone will complain about clanking with rest.
  • The only window that most characters can punish during shine>fair on shield is between Shine and the first hit of FAir (-8 frame disadvantage). I estimate that no character can punish you oos between the 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd hits of Fair, but I have not actually done the calculations for these. Nair and bair come out 2 frames faster than fair, so they can cut the window after shine to -6, but since they are not multihit moves, there will be an enormous window which Falco can be punished after the hitbox comes out.
  • After 2 or 3 multishines on shield, you will have pushed your opponent far enough away that they are out of range for another shine. Standard Westballz pressure (double shine>wavedash forward>double shine) uses a wavedash to close the gap, but most characters can easily oos punish the wavedash. Using FAir instead of the wavedash is a much less punishable way to close the gap and resume shine pressure and gives you additional hitboxes which help deteriorate their shield faster and can shield poke.
I can also think of a couple reasons you might not want to use this type of shield pressure.
  • Fair will not always have great followups if it shield pokes or catches an oos option. It often will lead to shine, up or forward smash, another aerial, or grab, but depending on percent, opposing character, and DI, follow ups may be difficult or impossible.
  • Once the opponents shield deteriorates, 3 hit fair is almost guaranteed to shield poke. Since the first hit is relatively high on shield and the third is relatively low, it would take some god-like shield angling to block all of the hits. Poking shield is often a good thing, but if you are going for a shield break you will probably need to avoid using fair.
  • If fair is staled, the third hit can be reduced to -7 on shield, making the landing lag punishable by a much larger portion of the cast. However, this should not be to big of a problem because fair is infrequently used, and it is very rare for the move to be staled.
  • This strategy requires incredible precision. There is only a 1 frame window to input the fair, and if you do not shine on the first active frame after landing lag many more characters will be able to punish you oos (i.e. Sheik nair oos, ICs dair oos). However, it requires the same amount of precision as multishining, and we see players that can consistently triple and quadruple shine mid match.
So that's it! I don't know if anyone has discovered this before. I have never heard anyone mention sh 3 hit fair before, let alone using it in the context of shield pressure. What do you all think?
 
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FE_Hector

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I mean, I suppose it could be okay against like Sheik or Captain Falcon, but in all honesty, I'm pretty sure that the fact that the last hit is like -6 on shield AND THEN another 10 or 11 frames of landlag if you L-Cancel... they've got a LOT of time to go and punish you. I haven't done anything to look at it, but just going by my gut, I'm not convinced that their shield stun is long enough that most characters couldn't punish you. IDK, something just feels off.
 

BRUJO~

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I mean, I suppose it could be okay against like Sheik or Captain Falcon, but in all honesty, I'm pretty sure that the fact that the last hit is like -6 on shield AND THEN another 10 or 11 frames of landlag if you L-Cancel... they've got a LOT of time to go and punish you. I haven't done anything to look at it, but just going by my gut, I'm not convinced that their shield stun is long enough that most characters couldn't punish you. IDK, something just feels off.
The only characters that can punish the landing lag are the ones I listed. Other than Fox, Samus, Mario, Doc, Bowser, G&W, and DK, the worst that anyone can do it clank. Of this I am certain. And even if shine clanks, Falco should technically be able to punish any clank with another shine unless its against another space animal.

With that said, there is a window that most characters can punish anyway (as I mentioned in the post) - between the shine and the first hitbox of fair. I am not saying that this shield pressure is unbeatable, because all forms of shield pressure are escapable. It is simply much less punishable than the wavedash that most people use instead. Not perfect, but objectively safer.

Also, being unsafe if you miss an l-cancel is not a reason to discredit a strategy, cause you should just not miss your l cancels. If frame perfect, this is by far Falco's safest aerial on shield.
 
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FE_Hector

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Hmm, alright then. If you say so. To be honest, I don't really like Westballz pressure that much, mostly due to how unsafe it is. I'm almost certain that shine nair, dubshine nair, and plain old shine/dubshine grab are way better options. It's not like breaking their shield is the goal.
 

BRUJO~

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Hmm, alright then. If you say so. To be honest, I don't really like Westballz pressure that much, mostly due to how unsafe it is. I'm almost certain that shine nair, dubshine nair, and plain old shine/dubshine grab are way better options. It's not like breaking their shield is the goal.
Yeah, i agree that westballz pressure is overhyped. People should be punishing it more than they are. Sh>3 hit fair>double shine>grab is technically 100% safe on shield if its not one of the characters I mentioned. It is just hard to get a lot off of Falco's grabs, so I think the risk reward ratio of trying to get a shine or aerial out of shield pressure is in Falco's favor.
 

FE_Hector

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Well, at lower percents, uthrow shine is pretty much guaranteed against fast fallers provided you have the skills to react to their DI. If you turn this into a uthrow shine dair and get a platform techchase, it can be some massive damage. I'll say straight up that it's not easy to do, but it works pretty well if you get it.
 

Riqbic

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Also this is SUPER cool! I am very new to the scene and it is stuff like this that makes me intrigued. The meta just goes so deep and I'm impressed that we are still finding new things. So thanks! Keep it up!
 

BRUJO~

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What are the potential punishments if you miss the frame perfect fair? And I'm assuming you would have to use A instead of C-stick to do this effectively?
Potential punishes would depend on the character you are facing. Most characters would be able to shield grab if you only get two hits of the fair to come out. Some characters have other oos options that they like to use (i.e. Sheik's nair oos, samus' up b oos)

I use c stick. It doesn't really matter which you use to do the input, its just whichever one is easier for you.
 

tauKhan

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The only characters that can punish the landing lag are the ones I listed. Other than Fox, Samus, Mario, Doc, Bowser, G&W, and DK, the worst that anyone can do it clank. Of this I am certain.
Nope, frame 6 options like sheik nair OoS and falco's shine OoS (can't think of any other 6 frame options though) also beat 3rd hit of fair cleanly.

Also the frame breakdown in the op has 4 frame jumpsquat for falco, where it should be 5.
 

FE_Hector

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Nope, frame 6 options like sheik nair OoS and falco's shine OoS (can't think of any other 6 frame options though) also beat 3rd hit of fair cleanly.

Also the frame breakdown in the op has 4 frame jumpsquat for falco, where it should be 5.
So pretty much all top tiers can punish?
 

tauKhan

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Peach and Falcon can't AFAIK. Also for Marth doing an upb OoS is risky. Marth could technically counter OoS between the first and second hit, but it's really hard.

One of the key problems for using fair in this manner is that it loses to ASDI down in many situations.
 

BRUJO~

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Nope, frame 6 options like sheik nair OoS and falco's shine OoS (can't think of any other 6 frame options though) also beat 3rd hit of fair cleanly.

Also the frame breakdown in the op has 4 frame jumpsquat for falco, where it should be 5.
Unless I calculated wrong, sheik's nair comes out on the same frame as falco's shine, right? Since shine has invincibility, it should either clank or win I thought.
 

tauKhan

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Unless I calculated wrong, sheik's nair comes out on the same frame as falco's shine, right? Since shine has invincibility, it should either clank or win I thought.
  • So long FAir is unstaled, the 3rd hit is -6 on shield.
I checked this and 3rd hit of fair is indeed -6 on shield (5 frames of shieldstun and 11 frames of lag). Sheik's nair hits frame 6 (3 frames of jumpsquat and 2 frames of startup before hitbox on the 3rd aerial frame) so the nair hits on the frame before falco can shine.
 

FE_Hector

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There is only a 1 frame window to input the fair, and if you do not shine on the first active frame after landing lag many more characters will be able to punish
It's not like breaking their shield is the goal.
Those two are the main two reasons that I wouldn't use this form of pressure. It barely works on the characters that it works on, requiring two consecutive frame perfect inputs, and it's punishable by almost every top tier character (Peach and Falcon [and ICs?] as the exceptions unless tauKhan is wrong). On top of that, if any of the hits shield poke, you get subpar damage and almost definitely only a single hit. That's really why I don't think this too good of an idea. Unless it's Puff, your goal should never be to break their shield-- just to get it low enough that you can get in a solid hit that'll lead to a solid punish. That's why Westballz loves his pressure so much: if it pokes, he gets a shine, and he's extremely skilled at comboing to ridiculous percents off of a single shine. This fair method... it just seems like you're taking a massive risk for what's likely to be a very low reward against a whopping two or three top-tier characters.

I won't say that this isn't extremely unique pressure, but I think that shine/dubshine nair and shine/dubshine grab are just far better shield pressure options.
 

BRUJO~

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I checked this and 3rd hit of fair is indeed -6 on shield (5 frames of shieldstun and 11 frames of lag). Sheik's nair hits frame 6 (3 frames of jumpsquat and 2 frames of startup before hitbox on the 3rd aerial frame) so the nair hits on the frame before falco can shine.
Oh, you're right. Bummer, I guess this won't be very useful. Do you think sh 3 hit fair would have any other uses? This was the only one I could think of
 

FE_Hector

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I don't think that SH 3-hit fair would have that many uses to be honest... unless you're just going for between-stock style lmao. The biggest use for fair that exists right now is how PPMD uses it: just a great tool to rack up more damage when your opponent is DIing in and you don't have any good edgeguard or kill setups available to you.
 
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C-SAF

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This wont catch a roll though will it? Most characters that this s safe against have bad Oos options anyway and will be looking to roll out any chance they get. This is neat but actually does these bad Oos characters a favour by letting them roll out once they see it. U want to be as low commitment as u can on these characters shields b/c u know they will roll most of the time.
 

Klemes

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Oh, you're right. Bummer, I guess this won't be very useful. Do you think sh 3 hit fair would have any other uses? This was the only one I could think of
sh 3 hit fair I don't know. PP uses fair in a few scenarios however :

u-throw fair at low% on marth (could work on shiek, but he seems to prefer to dair her).

fair to push off-stage after a combo string, when the opponent is more likely to be holding away. You can see him do it several times vs armada's fox at genesis3.

I like to sh fair to hit on platforms on YS (could work on PS and BF). They just never expect it, so it's pretty free for now. Can send off stage at high%, or give a follow up at low%, depending on the DI (rarely optimal, since they didn't see it coming).

Also I did something amazing accidentally once : on YS, I went to shine my friend on the top platform (Marth), then I FH shine>fair'ed him (instead of shine>bair), which killed him off the top. He was at mid%, like 50/60% max. So I wouldn't say this is anything you can do reliably to kill off the top, but it's something, right ?
 

FE_Hector

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One thing I'd like to add for fair uses is that PPMD also likes it when his opponent is DIing in so that he can land multiple hits of it. You'll generally see this before he has legitimate kill options and his chance of getting a successful edgeguard is pretty low. The idea is he'll land 2 or 3 hits of fair and rack up some pretty nice damage so that it'll be easier to KO when his opponent is opened up once more.
 
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