Foxtrot and Pivot Moves

[Tenki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8x1ErhiwP4&feature=related

As you can see:
Yoshi's Draconic Reverse.
Traits:
- Neutral state upon end: any move can be done out of it.
- Possible instant momentum change, at any rate of speed.
- Can be used to do "Draconic Trot", which moves about the same speed as Yoshi's run
- Slide

...wavedash.

Input
(all inputs done before Yoshi's foot 'twitches' - about 5 frames, according to Yoshi boards)
[Jump]-[Double Jump]-[Attack]



___________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioUt7qjfh6Y
Sonic's foxtrot/"dashdance" turnaround:
Traits:
- Initial dash ending: can go into run-based moves (dash attack, dash grab, pivot grab, re-start initial dash, foxtrot slide)
- Performing [forward]-[back] at dashdance speed to start an initial dash causes you to reverse momentum.
- Upon re-starting an initial dash: can go into U-smash, F-smash, reverse D-smash (can only be done out of a turnaround), side-B.
- Foxtrot can be cancelled by Side-B (optional B-reversal and/or shield), jump.
- Can be done to move near Sonic's run speed.
- Distance covered by the trot depends on how long you hold forward - you can cross FD in 3-4 foxtrots at the least, without using the foxtrot slide.
+ trip chance.

...ultraversatile foxtrot.

Input
There are two "parts" to this: The foxtrot itself, and the 'pivot', or turnaround.

Foxtrot: [Tap forward] > [Tap forward]... (each one chains into another)
Foxtrot slide ("surf"/"grind"): [Tap forward]-[Release and tilt anywhere less than half way]

Dashdance Pivot: (quickly) [Tap forward]-[Tap back] (starts foxtrot in the opposite direction)
True Pivot: (at dashdance speed) [Tap forward]-[release+tilt SLIGHTLY backwards]

misc:
F-smash out of Foxtrot: [Foxtrot] > [Tap forward]+[A] (or C-stick)
Foxtrot Stutterstep: [Foxtrot] > [Dashdance pivot]+[C-stick forward as you hit back]
D-smash out of Dashdance Pivot: [Begin a forward-back to pivot] > [C-stick down as controller passes neutral]
"Retreating F-smash"/"Reverse Stutterstep": (From standing position, quickly) [Tap back]-[Tap forward]+[A]
:bumper: Dash pivot cancel [Full dash] > [tap/hold back shortly] > [anything] (can even go straight into full dash in the forward direction

------------
I'm not sure, maybe you people with better technical skill/timing can mess around with this.

I've been trying to work with it for a while. I can't do phanna's true pivot the proper way, so if anyone's interested in how I manage to D-smash (and sometimes, D-tilt) out of foxtrot, I hit [forward]-[back] at dashdance speed, but I hit C-stick down as my control stick passes center (interrupts it so you pull a move out of true pivot lol).

Anyway, I was in aib's chatroom the other day and I said "lol @ Sonic in Melee".
I'll paraphrase part of the chat.
- "haha wtf. he wouldn't even need wavedash"
- "are you kidding? Sonic with wavedash would be crazy! can you imagine moving at Sonic's speed and instantly changing momentum like that?"
- "o-O motion sickness much?"

Just throwing it out there.

 

[Chis]

Sounds like a good idea. There needs to be testing and maybe a video demo of Sonic doing this.

 

[Umby]

Wait, would Sonic's wavedash even be that great? His traction is too good.

 

[Tenki]

he's actually kinda slippery.

He only has good traction doing screech stop out of a full run `.`;

 

[R4ZE]

cant u juust use side-b sheild cancel into smashes anyway?

 

[Tenki]

Yes, but having to do side-B> Shield > wait for shield to go away

is considerably slower and has less surprise impact than moving (forward or backward) and suddenly being in "haha I'm charging a F-smash" state.
-----------
edit:

I found some parts in videos that Rowan/DiasFlac took when I was trying to use it in-game.
These were wifi matches, so due to some input lag, the actual performance of the moves (like the ft dance) or whatever that I was trying to followup with usually missed lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D55byOasvg&feature=related
0:20-0:24 failed attempt>success
2:10-2:15 "dashdance" to start the run > F-air>grab, then I weave out and back with a foxtrot> "pivot" > run. i think I was too caught up in trying to get the rhythm so I did it too early for it to be effective.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1bDV10-6uU&feature=related
1:06 Foxtrot>F-smash: successful prediction lol

possible mindgame to attach to foxtrot F-smash is to go for dash grabs and see if they start spotdodge-punishing you, then going in for a ft fsmash

 

[da K.I.D.]

OMG that was amazing.
i especially liked the ceiling stall when you effed up under the ledge, im not sure i would have thought of that.
yo if we all start doing that id like to see people complain about the range than...lol

i need to get wifi so you can train me on this

 

[Tenki]

lol I was playing against Swoll (Swil?) from TX, who mains Ganondorf/Yoshi.

We both had decent connections, so we were sort of... able to use our offline-style playstyles (movements, but not necessarily reflexes lol). At one point, his Yoshi started pulling run feints and Draconic Reverse (yoshi-wavedash) to bait moves.

I started doing Foxtrot-Dance+cancels.

it was the weirdest match ever.

Sonicdash vs Yoshidash.



But my mindgames and use of movement was cooler/more effective lol ;3

 

[R4ZE]

lol i just think its funny, because bak in the day i remember you telling me to not use ASC so much,,,, LOL...

but holy hell that foxtrot smash was amazing.

I'm noticing some kind of consistancy between different sonic main's playstyles recently.



not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

on 1 hand i think we the sonic boards truly are finding ways to make sonic good, on the other hand... this means that ppl will know how to fight a good sonic

 

[Tenki]

lol i just think its funny, because bak in the day i remember you telling me to not use ASC so much,,,, LOL...

but holy hell that foxtrot smash was amazing.

I'm noticing some kind of consistancy between different sonic main's playstyles recently.



not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing.

on 1 hand i think we the sonic boards truly are finding ways to make sonic good, on the other hand... this means that ppl will know how to fight a good sonic

lol

If you meant the Link fight, he obviously didn't know how to fight Sonic, though. Anyone who does can easily counter ASC approaches. It's still one of Sonic's best damager moves, so I abused it a bit too much. `.`;

Looking back at the vs Link fight, I don't know why I used it so much - there were better choices I could have made =/

When fighting (to win), I assume my opponent already knows how to fight Sonic already, since some of the good players out there have crew members and such that main Sonic. It helps me avoid doing ASC spam like I did against C.Mob.. lol.

If they know how to fight Sonic, then I can at least win and lose knowing that it's not because my opponent didn't know how to fight the character, and because the winner was just more skilled.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Hmmm. I approve of this thread and your findings, Tenki.

*thumbs up*

 

[Tenki]

This is sort of miscellaneous but:
1) Can someone try to tell me if there's a difference in movement speed between run speed when done from:
- Full-tilt walk in one direction > Immediately run the other direction.
- Full-tilt walk in one direction > Release control stick for a split second > Run in the other direction.

I have this feeling that if you try to start a run/foxtrot straight out of holding the opposite direction, you'll run slower than if you start from a neutral position.

I believe it also somewhat carries over into foxtrots and 'foxtrot pivot' / dashdance.

-----------------
and on a funny note, the foxtrot dance can be done to the beat of All Your Base.

 

[Greenstreet]

ok i really cant get this tech down? how do u do it mate?

 

[The Real Inferno]

I was goofing around the other day and stumbled upon this same thing. I made everybody watch the replay and said "Lol wavedash", but I don't see any actual use of this beyond gimmickyness. Plus, you know, tripping.

 

[R4ZE]

isnt this tech similar to what dphanna posted a long time ago? or is it executed differently?

He said you do a fox trot, and then hit down or back or somthing.. at the right time/speed, and then it allowed you to do smashes immidiately

 

[Tenki]

Sort of...

I believe that phanna's version is:
Foxtrot: [tap forward],[tap forward],[tap forward]... etc as normal.
Pivot: (quickly, at "dashdance" speed) [tap forward]-[go neutral+ tilt SLIGHTLY back]

If you do phanna's pivot, you just stop the foxtrot while standing, facing in the opposite direction, which lets you do tilts, smashes, anything, out of it. I can do it fine in slow motion, but I'm not technically good enough to pull it off at normal speed consistently.

In my version, I replace the Pivot input
Pivot: (quickly, at "dashdance" speed) [tap forward]-[tap back]

note: Just added the inputs to a bunch of stuff to the first post.

Also, I need someone to test this...

This is sort of miscellaneous but:
1) Can someone try to tell me if there's a difference in movement speed between run speed when done from:
- Full-tilt walk in one direction > Immediately run the other direction.
- Full-tilt walk in one direction > Release control stick for a split second > Run in the other direction.

I have this feeling that if you try to start a run/foxtrot straight out of holding the opposite direction, you'll run slower than if you start from a neutral position.

 

[IceDX]

U know what we should work on....

we should categorize a list of the diferent sonic style of gameplay that we know so far and give credits to whoever was seen using each of them....

as far as i know sonics styles can be:
reg sonic (basic gameplay) like Mr 3000
Agrro? like the one _X_ uses
Defensive??
Mindgame rush? thats what i like to call my style jej
ASC/Fait based like the one tenki uses

etc. anyone up 4 this make a thread on it jej....
i would do it but im just not good explaining myself i would just end up confusing you all...
just be sure to put me on the credits.....

 

[infomon]

Tenki: I tried some simple tests, I couldn't notice any difference between the two runs, but I was probably doing it wrong :-) So I dunno.

 

[darkNES386]

Are you having problems with the foxtrot>pivotcancel>foxtrot>pivotcancel or with with smash attacks?

 

[R4ZE]

U know what we should work on....

we should categorize a list of the diferent sonic style of gameplay that we know so far and give credits to whoever was seen using each of them....

as far as i know sonics styles can be:
reg sonic (basic gameplay) like Mr 3000
Agrro? like the one _X_ uses
Defensive??
Mindgame rush? thats what i like to call my style jej
ASC/Fait based like the one tenki uses

etc. anyone up 4 this make a thread on it jej....
i would do it but im just not good explaining myself i would just end up confusing you all...
just be sure to put me on the credits.....

some one made a thread about sonic playstyles a while back, a lot of people posted their styles and opinions on styles. its buried sumwhere, and obviously outdated. i would think sonic styles evolve and change, but it depends on the player that determines in what order they change.

I'm starting to see a "general" style between some of the top sonic players.

 

[IceDX]

some one made a thread about sonic playstyles a while back, a lot of people posted their styles and opinions on styles. its buried sumwhere, and obviously outdated. i would think sonic styles evolve and change, but it depends on the player that determines in what order they change.

I'm starting to see a "general" style between some of the top sonic players.

Yes i notice this already but if we had a in depht guide on it it would probably be really helpfull....
like truely see what moves are used in each style, and how, why, etc...

 

[Tenki]

IceDX already cloned his question in the other thread ("how to make Sonic a well rounded character"), I'd like it if the playstyle discussion was there instead.

Are you having problems with the foxtrot>pivotcancel>foxtrot>pivotcancel or with with smash attacks?

who is this question directed to? lol

Tenki: I tried some simple tests, I couldn't notice any difference between the two runs, but I was probably doing it wrong :-) So I dunno.

Hmm..

weird.

I did some tests with walking, then tapping backwards (without and with a delay).

In the tests that I did, it looked like Sonic covered more distance with the tap done from a 'neutral' control stick position.

I noticed this while doing foxtrot pivots as well.

It's not necessarily foxtrot related, but I'm feeling like it's more useful when you wanna punish landings while baiting/making them feel safe as you walk away.

Can anyone confirm this?

 

[da K.I.D.]

phannas method was:
foxtrot, than do a dashdance to face the other way, than stop and do another foxtrot in the direction you are now facing. your control stick moves similar to.
>--><-<--<>->

 

[Tenki]

phanna's pivot, if you're awesome enough to to throw it into this, would make foxtrot really.. good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c

he does F-tilt and D-tilt out of it, too ;__;

I've done true pivot in slow-motion, and it's cool because you really can do anything out of it -__-;

the foxtrot dance i do is usually

>--><--<>--><--<>--.. etc

 

[Greenstreet]

i think the question was directed at me.
coz i still cant do this.
the thing i want to be able to do is the sonic link is the first post.

i'll try wat u have said there^ tenki. here goes nothing.

also i tested out the running thing u were after on a giant map with a ladder as my starting point (starting dash animation not included) and the results were so close it was probly my stopwatching abilities. did it in 1/4, 1/2, 2/3 and 1x so yer

 

[da K.I.D.]

i still cant really wrap my head around it but i have something

 

[Greenstreet]

hey tenki do u have a better way of explaining hey this is done? i am running around training mode like a fool here...

 

[da K.I.D.]

junk is madd complicated

 

[Tenki]

hey tenki do u have a better way of explaining hey this is done? i am running around training mode like a fool here...

lol

okay.

I can try.

Foxtrotting is simple enough, so I'm gonna assume you can do that.
Dashdance pivot - basically, quickly [forward]-[back]. If you can't control it, then just try practicing hitting forward and back frantically from standing position until Sonic starts to twitch facing left and right.



here's the thing though, if you wanna link it to another move (smash, dashdance pivot, etc) you have to wait just a bit (his front foot starts to pull back/relax just a bit). Releasing the control stick before you start to input another move helps.

The fastest I've been able to keep the rythm and link dashdances together was the beat to this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

but if you go slower, you should be able to pull it off as long as you remember to let go of the control stick before you input more moves.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ill get back to you tomarrow

 

[da K.I.D.]

but thanks

 

[Greenstreet]

so r u bringing the control stickback to nuetral before the next inpt?

 

[da K.I.D.]

when i do my wack version,yes, yes i do

 

[da K.I.D.]

is that your puppy?

 

[R4ZE]

I finally got a chance to mess aroudn with this stuff.

From your explanation, it sounds different then what i found out. so ill explain what i did.

I pressed forward forward on the directional stick (the faster the better it seemed) almost as if trying to start running in a kirby game. Sonic does that sliding stop that I know you talked about in another thread.

basicly from there if executed at the right time i know you can execute any smash attack.


So in execution its pretty easy . Forward Forward C-stick. (generally the faster you press forward, the better this works.)
Anyway, is this the same thing that you are doing? or is yours better?

EDIT: Alright, i was able to find where you put the input buttons. ANYWAY. this tech is amazing. not sure why i never messed with it before. I think this could be key to making sonic win honestly, it helps his killings moves quite abit.

 

[Greenstreet]

yer i am more concerned about the dance. foxtrot is easy.

errr its not really my puppy but i claim him as my own
me holding him tho (WHOA!!!!!!)

 

[Tenki]

quickly input forward-back then let go of the control stick.

Before you can input another "forward-back" to turn it to face forward, you have to wait a little bit, until Sonic starts to relax his front foot.

Like I said, the fastest that I've been able to pull it off was about the rythm on the drum part for "All your base".

If you do it too fast, the game will start a slow-run (it's basically "full-dash" state, but slower) and you can't instantly pivot out of full-dash.

 

[R4ZE]

so.. did you guys know that if you do a dash dance (rapidly pressing left anf right over and over)

you can actually smash out of it, as long as you are facing left, you cna c-stick right and do fsmash to the right. and opposite works the same, if you cstick left when you are facing right, it will fsmash left.

if you try to cstick right while facing right, it will dash attack.


this dash-dance strat was used a lot in melee because more could be done out of it, and there was no tripping. this is pretty hard to do in brawl too because you have to do it a lot faster to get the same effct.


(FYI, turn tap jump off to make this a lot easier to do)


anyway this could be a realy good thing for sonic if explored more.

 

[Chis]

so.. did you guys know that if you do a dash dance (rapidly pressing left anf right over and over)

you can actually smash out of it, as long as you are facing left, you cna c-stick right and do fsmash to the right. and opposite works the same, if you cstick left when you are facing right, it will fsmash left.

if you try to cstick right while facing right, it will dash attack.


this dash-dance strat was used a lot in melee because more could be done out of it, and there was no tripping. this is pretty hard to do in brawl too because you have to do it a lot faster to get the same effct.


(FYI, turn tap jump off to make this a lot easier to do)


anyway this could be a realy good thing for sonic if explored more.

Agreed. It reminds me of what Ken's Marth use to do. Also what about this?
Dash dance away from your opponent > dash toward them and do on of the following:
* Hyperntic smash
* Stutter step Up/forward smash
dash towards them and cancel the dash with a >B shield cancel shield grab
* Run past them and pivot grab
* DAC.
What do you think?

 

[R4ZE]

what if sakurai pwnz u? (trip)


i guess the reward outweighs the risk?