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Fox vs Falco & Falcon crouch cancel %'s

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
I planned on just posting this in the sticky, but I figure this might actually be something I would want to find back later (and maybe other too?) so I'll post it here:

Crouch cancel % vs Falco:

As Fox against Falco:
move - until
Dair - 69%
Weak Dair - 80% <- for PAL
Strong Bair - 60%
Weak Bair - 100% <- this one is useful vs Falco's who use a lot of auto-canceled bairs since the crouch means he cant hit hard
Strong Nair - 70%
Weak Nair - 95%

Up-tilt - 60% <- also important to know when getting in on Falco
Down-tilt - 45%
F-tilt - 115% <- but you get sent away wayyy too far to do anything

Up-B - 17% <- this means at 18% you fall over. This one is also very important when edgeguarding Falco, it opens up a lot more options
Side-B - 75% <- when it was stale I reached 115%, but it'll never be stale so when edgeguarding you can CC the side B till 75
Down-B - 100% <- Below 100% you get knocked to the ground (you tech). Above that you go into the air with CC.

F-smash - 30%
U-smash - 40%
D-smash - 65%

Ledge get-up <100% - always, like up to 200%
Ledge get-up >100% - same
Get-up after missed tech - 90% <- I already posted some data on this once, until 50 you can U-smash/standing grab afterwards, until 70 you can F-smash if he hits with the first hit only, until 90 you dash in grab


As Falco against Fox:

Strong Bair - 62%
Weak Bair - 110%
Strong Nair - 72% <- This one is important, you can start N-airing once he hits 73%
Weak Nair - 110% <- He slides away pretty far, but if you SH N-air in, you're still in range
U-air - 30% <- after that, he gets knocked down, can tech, gets popped up at 50-60% even when CC'd

Up-tilt - 37% <- much lower than I expected, so U-tilt is pretty good, he can tech here, gets popped up at 80
F-tilt - 115%
D-tilt - 52% <- I feel like down-tilt is pretty important, can tech, gets popped up at 95

Side-B - 92% <- much better than Fox's crouch cancel here
Up-B - 63% <- after this, feel free to fire into his ass
Down-B - nothing special

F-smash - 50%
U-smash - 30%
D-smash - 100%

Ledge get-up and normal tech get-up work exactly the same for Falco, also up to 90%.


So here you go, these % are pretty useful to remember their range. Vs Falco, some important things:

Crouching near the ledge when he's on there under 60% is a good option since nothing he can do knocks you down.
Nairing at Falco below 70% is very dangerous since it's just setting yourself up to get shine-combo'd
Up-tilt is pretty good at breaking CC's low% if it's not stale.
When Falco is recovering and you had <15% you can eat the firebird and side B, so just crouch and wait out what he does.
A lot of Falcos like doing a lot of autocancel bair and u-tilts to keep their space. You can eat the autocancel bairs when CC'ing (they will be weak hits) but get pushed a bit back. At low % you can just eat it and down-tilt through him
At low % you really just have to utilize Dair to get in.

I hope this helped you all

----

Addition: as Fox vs. Falcon crouch cancel %'s.

Dair - 30%
Bair - 50%
Nair (2nd hit only) - 80%
Uair (strong hit) - 60%
Uair (weak hit/back part) - 100%
Fair (strong hit) - 30%

Up-tilt - 45%
Down-tilt - over 80%
F-tilt - 80%
Gentleman - 90% before taking first jab

Side-B - 40%
Down-B - 50%

F-smash - 20%
U-smash - Crouch canceling makes the 2nd hit miss.
D-smash - 25%

Ledge get-up <100% - Over 130%
Ledge get-up >100% - over 130%
Get-up after missed tech - 90% for both types of mistech

These are very interesting figures in that we can see that Falcon actually has very good %, so crouch canceling vs him is pretty bad. His aerials especially, don't try to crouch cancel those. Crouching near the ledge to cover his options is sorta ok at low %, but then again you limit yourself in crouch.
One very important thing is you can crouch DURING the gentleman. So if you get hit with the first jab and hit down between the FIRST and SECOND jab you can crouch, if you try to hit down between the second and knee hit, you won't be on time. So anticipate the jab and hit down, the time window is pretty decent. You have quite some time to get a punish afterwards, U-smash or running shine
 
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bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
First of all, thanks for posting this. I feel like Falco (not Sheik) is the matchup you have to be most aware of their CC options because they get so much off of a CC.

I wanted to talk about this one here "Strong Nair - 72% <- This one is important, you can start N-airing once he hits 73%". In practice, do you really see a reason to respect that particular CC that far into a stock? In general, I tend to drill for the first 50 percent. This often discourages Falcos for going for the CC after the first few times, but once I've noticed they stop going for the CC, I'll sometimes nair as early as 30 percent.

The basic tradeoff is that dair is *usually* not as good of an approach option as nair, but you get some security against CC while giving an opportunity to SDI (especially in today's meta). I know the numbers dictate sticking to drill for the first 70ish percent, but given player realities, it seems like an unnecessary burden to me. Was curious to hear what you think on the subject.

Then again I'm aerialing less and less for the first half stock against Falco anyway. <3 running shine on laser startup if you can read it and have your DD spacing right.
 
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Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
I agree, this is from a purely mechanical view that you can start N-airing at that %, but you can often start much earlier since at 70% no one will really go for the crouch cancel. I personally prefer Dair a lot more vs Falco over Nair, but I don't use either much when in neutral (where they can CC). I like it more when coming down from platforms.

One of the most important ones in this dataset is the crouch cancel on getup attack. People have seem to be stealing this **** from Mango and its getting really obnoxious and it feels really good when hitting them down at 91%.
 

SSBMLahti

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
1,252
This is awesome. I honestly don't utilize CC enough and I've realized that knowing where, when and what moves to CC are major components to the game- components that I lack.

Thanks for making me come to this realization :)
 
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King Mob

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
39
Location
Des Plaines, IL
Crouch cancelling is actually very good against Falcon. Nair, jab and rising upair are his best pokes. And they're all cc'able to good percentages. If you've got a good combo game on Falcon, it can get you a ton of mileage.
 

ultimamax

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
19
Location
Chicago
I think some of this data is wrong? When I tested Fox up smashing Falco (unstaled, uncharged) I got that Falco gets knocked down at 23.00-24.99%, and knocked airborn at 46.00-47.99%. What was your procedure?

edit: ikneedata is corroborating my data
 
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