Fox Matchup discussion.

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
#1
Currently Discussing

Fox vs Pikachu

Fox vs Fox


I'll put my own opinion on those two tomorrow, don't have too much time right now.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#2
OMG had post typed up and lost it :(

Anyway cliffs:

Fox combos Pika pretty well with fair chains, dair, and usmash finisher.

Be careful using utilt after an aerial against Pika because one mistake can lead to getting gimped.


Against Fox you can low laser him, use shine obviously to neutralize his lasers and gimp gimp gimp.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
#3
Fox vs Pikachu

Match-up Overview
What Fox really wants to do against Pikachu is make full use of the stage. By shifting between running away and aggressively, he has to put the pressure on Pikachu, trying to lead him into making a mistake, thus giving him a chance for a combo opener. Once he gets that chance, he has to capitalize as much as possible from it, because if he messes up, chances are he's going to get hurt. He must never be cornered.

Stages

Hyrule
Slight Disadvantage [45:55]

This is the stage Fox really wants to take Pikachu to. The main platform prevents him from getting gimped at low %s, the tent makes his combos way easier, and the size of the stage allows him to laser camp safely.​

DreamLand

Serious Disadvantage [35:65]

Pikachu's favourite stage is like Hell for Fox. It's just way too easy for him to get a grab and to edgeguard from it, using his ridiculous recovery to go and get Fox wherever he's recovering from. Fox's only hope is to use mid-range lasers to interrupt pika's approaches and then retaliate, or occasionally pressure him from under a platform. What's true for the match-up in general counts double on DreamLand : Don't make a mistake. Don't get hit.

Congo Jungle
?​


I'll complete the post later. I just felt that the discussion had to be started somehow, so I started it.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#5
One thing to note is that Pika pwns Fox in the tent also. I'd actually say more than Fox pwns Pika in there.
They can both 0-death, there's not such a big difference. Of course it might be harder for Fox than for Pikachu, but I don't feel that the difficulty of performing combos/setups shouldn't be taken into account too much. Of course, there are some extreme very situational combos but Fox's wall combos doesn't qualify as one of them.

What should be discussed further is approaches, defense, bnb combos, edgeguarding, recovering, etc.

I'll post about that in a bit.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#8
Pika can upB escape from stuff. If you get grabbed in there as Fox you're pretty screwed.
Pikachu can only use UpB to escape if it's not a legit combo, which isn't hard to avoid with Fox in the **** tent. I think we can all agree they both **** each other up pretty badly there; if either character has an advantage there it's minimal at best.

I personally think the matchup is actually even on Hyrule (and similarly, I think this is the only even matchup)
I'm assuming you mean the only even match-up with Pikachu?
 

SilentSlayers

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
328
#10
I think it's about even as well. I can't say which way it leans, it's better to just say it's extremely close IMO. Maybe a player with extremely skilled DI has an advantage over a Fox as Pikachu since dair, and even things like uair etc. can get really affected by DI. Just something to consider.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
#11
I think Pika vs. Fox on Hyrule is essentially even. On one hand you got Fox's superior stage control primarily due to lasers, which on Hyrule is really important because Fox doesn't really ever have to approach. His ability to combo to into his vertical KO moves in many many situations does a lot to negate Pikachu's recovery advantage. Fox's recovery is actually somewhat better on Hyrule than on other stages, because if you up-B really high you can be tricky enough to survive occasionally. Pikachu's combos are nearly as good but he has to approach to get openings, and I think that makes a big enough difference to make up for Pikachu just being a better character.

Dreamland is clearly a Pikachu advantage since Fox can no longer safely camp (if he camps, he's putting his back right to the edge which is a no-no there. I'm pretty sure if Pikachu tries to approach from above his Dair will at least trade with anything Fox tries to counter with. If Fox ever gets caught he's likely going off the edge and will die like 90% of the time, but Fox still has superb combos that can efficiently kill Pikachu, so I don't think it's any worse than just a disadvantage for Fox.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#13
Pikachu's combos are nearly as good
I think Fox's combos are much much better. Primarily due to his approach. Any of his aerials can start an aerial chain ending in usmash, whereas non tent Pika combos are very situational, and rely on getting an utilt or usmash, which is more difficult than getting an approach.

Pikachu can only use UpB to escape if it's not a legit combo, which isn't hard to avoid with Fox in the **** tent.
It's harder than you think to combo Pikachu and other light characters in there. Can you give an example of a "legit combo" that will always work? I'm curious because maybe I am missing the magic one that always works.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
#14
Start with whatever you want and finish with utilt towards the tent, one hit uair usmash.

Pikachu can also start a combo from most of his attacks, or at least get into a techchase situation / get a grab. At higher % he won't even need to combo anyway, he'll just knock you off and edgeguard...
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#15
Start with whatever you want and finish with utilt towards the tent, one hit uair usmash.
You're talking about as Fox? How does one hit uair usmash combo on a light/floaty?

Pikachu can also start a combo from most of his attacks, or at least get into a techchase situation / get a grab. At higher % he won't even need to combo anyway, he'll just knock you off and edgeguard...
Not to the extent that Fox can though. I agree at high percents he can get into edgeguard situations easily, although Hyrule helps out with that.
 

Mahie

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 18, 2007
Messages
1,067
Location
Lille, France
#16
You're talking about as Fox? How does one hit uair usmash combo on a light/floaty?



Not to the extent that Fox can though. I agree at high percents he can get into edgeguard situations easily, although Hyrule helps out with that.
You have to do the utilt from the floor under the tent, then do your 1H Uair so that you land on the top of the tent, cancel it and upsmash. It's legit. It works around 60~70 I think.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#20
It's harder than you think to combo Pikachu and other light characters in there.
"than you think" makes it sound like you think I don't play Fox or something :p

Can you give an example of a "legit combo" that will always work? I'm curious because maybe I am missing the magic one that always works.
Well, you can chain FThrows/BThrows like usual, as well as the usual BThrow Nair/Fair Usmash finisher. Another combo I like to do starting ~20% is FThrow/Bthrow -> utilt -> bair off green wall -> utilt -> weak aerial out of tent -> USmash (man, describing combos in words sucks).
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#21
Luckily, everyone in the backroom can visualise it (or so i hope).

As long as you don't throw them directly left onto the main stage, huge damage ensues.

Mahie, try to focus discussion a little more on the matchup and bits you want help with.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
#22
Well, you can chain FThrows/BThrows like usual, as well as the usual BThrow Nair/Fair Usmash finisher. Another combo I like to do starting ~20% is FThrow/Bthrow -> utilt -> bair off green wall -> utilt -> weak aerial out of tent -> USmash (man, describing combos in words sucks).
I don't think either of those work from low percents ... MAYBE if you do them perfectly.
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
#23
i think that if played completely seriously, this matchup is really flawed on hyrule.
there are three zones on this stage, the tent, which is good for both (both can just get easy kills there and wait there at high %), the middle segment, which with a fox that utilizes the run and gun method (see sensei :p) is fox favorite, and the left slope, which is totally pika favorite.

i have seen games stop because of a fox just laser camping a pika, which for example will be with high % so it will be really dangerous to approach, and the pika just hanging out on the left side.

both do not want to risk approaching, so how do you decide who is campng, by that excessive camping is not allowed rule.

p.s. does not happen to my pika because i am dumb and will charge in at any situation :D

also, i do agree that this stage is even with a very slight pika advantage. i would say like 52:48 if it was possible.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,343
Location
Sayonara Memories
#24
lol dandan i literally wrote the matchup was 52:48 before thinking 'nah that's dumb' and cutting it out

i don't think we can ever determine something like that, but i see exactly where you're coming from

slight, slight, slight advantage to pika on hyrule, so slight it may as well be labelled even
advantage to pika elsewhere

i don't think congo gives fox any special advantages, though he gets in the barrel easier than most (which should be a non-factor against a good pikachu)
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
#25
i personally think that kongo is easier for pika than dreamland.
no edges to di, and higher platforms make it easier to combo.
i think i already discussed it from the pikachu pov in his matchup thread.
 

King Funk

Int. Croc. Alligator
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
2,972
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
#26
I think I already asked that, but can't we get to the real point of this thread? What should Fox do to win in this matchup?

I got to go to a tournament right now for the whole weekend where I'll set up Smash 64, but I hope people here don't forget the reason we do those matchup threads.
 
Top