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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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gantrain05

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i don't find it too tough to gimp warios recovery, if you have played him alot, you know what height he can jump off his bike, i'll usually jump out after him, and when he see's this he'll usually jump off his bike, and its a free arial of your choice. it's not easy to do but if you succeed and you hit him with a Bair he's never coming back.
 

Fenrir VII

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i don't find it too tough to gimp warios recovery, if you have played him alot, you know what height he can jump off his bike, i'll usually jump out after him, and when he see's this he'll usually jump off his bike, and its a free arial of your choice. it's not easy to do but if you succeed and you hit him with a Bair he's never coming back.
He usually is able to recover VERY high, though... so aerials won't really reach him. that's usual, anyway

Also, his aerial movement speed and mobility , mixed with his number of jumps REALLY adds to his being hard to hit.

I agree that you can edgeguard him VERY well if you see something coming. Dair and Bair pretty much destroy his recovery... it's just that they're hard to hit if the Wario is cautious about it.
 

Lightning93

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Weegee was the first character to ever completely **** my beginning Fox. : (

About those bike traps though, I don't see them too commonly within Wario players, but I'm sure if they attempt them, they're not fools. Anyways... I wouldn't mind Luigi next at all. My friend has been kind of nice to name his super up-b "the fiery **** of justice." Apparently Weegee just has the skill to **** you for a brief second without ever flashing.
 

SmashBrother2008

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Luigi's attacks seem like thier designed against fox. All the Luigi player needs to do is rapidly press A and hold the analog stick towards you and it will beat out most attacks. Believe me, I've tried it. >:(
 

-Mars-

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He's generally not going to approach with nair, he only uses it to keep you from following up off of a throw or utilt. Fair beats all of his other aerials and nair might beat most of them too(not sure about Weegees bair). OoS usmash will destroy him as well.
 

Toronto Joe

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i played a really good Wario(GI) at my tourney yesterday and won 2-1

although you guys are against ground lasers, they almost always bait Warios into using bike so you got alot of options once hes on that badboy

smash di out of d-air, never stay in range of fsmash

rack up damage with laser, utilt(dont d-air to utilt, just utilt), d-smash works nicely against Wario, just string together combos and play smart

im bad at giving advice, i wish they recorded my matches, i had epic sets with people

EDIT: i ****ing beat a good Marth! YEHS!
 

Lightning93

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Yes most Luigi's will approach with some SHFireballs or some b-airs, or a tornado, maybe F-airs. But that's the thing with Luigi, he has many approaches against Fox, which my friend agrees with. Luigi is not very combo-able, but he can be double shine spiked. The only reason I say double is because it will take probably more than one shine and some edge-hogging to gimp a good Luigi if he knows how to use his tornado and missle moves. For some strange reason beware the coin spike, if you go in for a shine spike and Luigi manages to get even the tiniest up-b (you will know this if you see a coin up on your head)*, this move will manage to somehow stun your recovery for a brief second allowing Luigi to edge-hog your recovery. This hasn't happened to often, but its something to look out for.

* I know most of you guys know this, but I was just trying to be sure to distinguish this up-b from his fiery super up-b.
 

SmashBrother2008

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Sounds like an air-loving luigi should see alot of our own Fairs. With this matchup, you want to beat out as many moves as possible.
 

Toronto Joe

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with Luigi you cant juggle with u-tilt because he can just use an aerial to counter you, the problem is he can juggle you which makes some fox players uncomfortable with the matchup......focus on grabs, avoiding combos and getting him offstage, when he is under the stage and recovers with his down b i like to nair/bair stage spike him and then shine his next recovery, he dies from usmash early and we die from fsmash early so both players can take one another out

its hard to beat out his moves because he has better priority, although fair is a great option vs him

never fall behind in the matchup, jab to up-b will screw you over

just punish luigi, shield alot, and dont get juggled
 

Lightning93

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If you hold down shield while Luigi is trying to do his jab to up-b combo you will shield the moment before he can hit you. Even with perfect timing you can still shield it, I'm pretty sure.

So far, we can't juggle Luigi, but our speed allows us to choose our move that will outbeat his first. We have to be careful when combo-ing and gimping, and it takes us a while to build up the damage we need to kill, but not that long as to be a big disadvantage.

However, Luigi is an awkward fight for Fox, so unless Fox is completely focused and mindset he will become a bit confused and a bit overwhelmed causing him to rely on simple damage builders, which can be easily broken through. Luigi can gimp Fox's recovery as well, as well as kill him fairly easy with a smash or two.

I'm going to have to say 60:40 or 70:30 Luigi's advantage for this matchup, he's hard to kill and he's hard to fight. He's a worse matchup than Wario I think so maybe 65:35? Please, discuss.
 

Zhamy

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That adds up to 110.

Dair is not your friend in this matchup. Unless you are using it to punish lag from a move that Luigi did (unlikely), you probably won't get off a good dair without getting anti-aired in the face. If you do land a dair, Luigi's Nair will put a nice dent in any Utilt combos, so you're left with jab, throw, and Dsmash as your best options.

Yes, you can camp Luigi, but it doesn't matter that much. He can cover his approach with a good SH fireball and follow it up with a tornado or RAR Bair, or punish a bad jump with Dair, bait it out with Nair, etc. etc. Basically, he has tons of options, and Fox doesn't have a reliable way of dealing with them.

Blah blah blah, etc, let's discuss what Fox can do in this matchup.
 

Lightning93

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Blah blah blah, etc, let's discuss what Fox can do in this matchup.
Not much, except for the usual Fox advantages, speed, SHDL for minor damages at times with much spacing, nice gimping game, and up-smash if you can land one. Luigi isn't ridiculously hard to kill, but it does take time.

That adds up to 110.
Lol that's ridiculous match-ups are out of 100 who would ever say something like 65:45? :laugh:

Not me, I would still say this is around 65:35. I've played a couple Luigis in my time, nothing spectacular works that well against him, and it seems an easier match for Luigi to win.
 

NeverKnowsBest

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Not me, I would still say this is around 65:35. I've played a couple Luigis in my time, nothing spectacular works that well against him, and it seems an easier match for Luigi to win.
I agree 100%. Luigi's have been stomping Foxes since Melee, they are just so good against Fox for some reason.
 

Fenrir VII

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Alright, since Zhamy asked... What can Fox do? well, play REALLY differently from normal.

I listed this as one of my least favorite matches. Let me clarify that. I don't think it's Fox's worst or anything... it's just really frustrating to play.

It really is a pain to approach and combo in this match.
As people have mentioned, utilt combos into Luigi's Nair, which is bad... you have a better option, though. Instead of just not utilting, you can utilt x1 or 2 and shield the nair to usmash or grab... whichever you prefer.... I sould say usmash most of the time strictly for the %, but it's your call. Also, just to note, This will usually also hit either an airdodge into the ground or a second jump to avoid it, with proper timing. Luigi's 2nd jump is fairly slow to start up, so the usmash usually will still reach.
So there, you have your D-air utilt combo back. hooray!
Now, other little combos and such that work on other chars just don't fly here... the Nair eats it all up.
This is also a detriment to Luigi, in some form... since he'll always try to Nair out of everything, giving you lots of usmashes, or other attacks from different angles... It's all about the predictability.
however, this is an insta c-c-c-combo breaker for him, so it makes it very tricky for you to go Fox on him and rack up the obscene % you get against other chars.

Another downside... Luigi's utilt combos you very well. You can DI it, but it's pretty tricky to get out of it without at least 30% from 0...it's also got good priority, and it's fast... so yeah. That mixed with his aerials and his tornado really lead to him being able to put damage on you.
To avoid this, shielding approach is amazing. Luigi's range is lacking, so usually, if he hits your shield, he gets an U-smash from you.
Be liberal with your use of usmashes here...It's worth the diminished returns for you to get that % on him... Grabs are also very simple to land, mostly...and you can refill your smashes with a couple grab attacks, too. Lasers are nice as well, so don't be worried about using your Usmashes.

Luigi tornado is a pest. You can beat it with several moves, but generally, it's very hard to predict, fast, and hard to punish when done correctly. Usually, the best response you can have is just to shield the thing.... That's talking about when it's used as an offensive move. I'll deal with recovery later.
Basically, the only real thing you can do here is predict and punish it, get hit and DI it for no followup, or shield and try to punish the lag time. I would suggest learning when he will try for it and punishing it.
Fox's lasers will bait out a tornado... so watch for it and punish with a dair or so.

Every time he jabs you after you're around 40%, shield immediately... an upB will most likely follow it. I realize this could lead to him grabbing you, but he won't have reliable followups here, so I would much rather get grabbed than have a chance of getting killed from the jab, upB.
To repeat, the Jab -> upB is not a true combo. You can shield out of it, and punish the lag afterward.

Luigi can mainly kill you with his Fsmash. If he angles it up, it's MUCH faster to start and stop than normal, so be careful about trying to punish it. it won't have any lag, really, and you'll run into another smash. It will kill you pretty early, too, so it will be his best method of getting that.
dsmash has deceptive range, and Bair is a good zoner too, so be careful

The main thing Fox has in this match over Luigi is the ability to punish and kill. His one main detriment if he is zoning you with SHs or trying to smash you or whatever is his lack of range... so to be able to attack you, Luigi basically has to put himself in your range. Fox can kill him before 100% easily, so you HAVE to keep this in mind.
His Sh is such that he will SH aerial your shield, then attack again, expecting to cover his high landing. Between these, you CAN land an usmash.

With edgeguarding, his aerial movement speed is pretty slow horizontally and vertically, so if he commits off the stage to edgeguard you, you can get around him with proper play. Just be smart about it, and he's a bit too slow to be able to gimp you too well... If he tries the Fair gimp at low %s, DI AWAY and go under him back to the ledge.

When you are edgeguarding him, He has a LOT of options, but they are all fairly slow and punishable.
His main recovery staple is his rising tornado, which is awesome. YOU CAN WEAK NAIR THROUGH IT, though, and he's dead...basically. You have to aim it well and predict decently, but it's not too hard to see it coming... Nair and dair can both beat it and will usually lead to Luigi being in a very bad position. You can also land a shine through it, but I really wouldn't advise trying that every time. It's VERY bad for Fox, should he miss.

Over B is very easy to punish with Nair, Bair, Dair, Fair, or a well timed Shine... He has quite a bit of lag after it, which is perfect for a bair, so watch for him being careless.
upB can be shined, Daired, and Naired. Don't miss the timing, thouygh...because again, a miss puts you in a BAD position.

Just be clever with predicting his moves and have good timing with an edgehog, and you can kill Luigi...

That's really the only thing I can say that's in Fox's favor in this match. You have to take any damage you get as it comes, and then watch for opportunities to kill.
I suppose that's why i hate this match. The Fox player really has to be defensive in this match... doing a lot of attacks out of shield, and just taking what he can get. I don't really think it's anywhere near unwinnable, but it's just not...fun to play. It's pretty nerve-racking, so just keep on top of it. Watch out for his utilt, and realize his range isn't that great, and you are ok in it.

Overall, I say anywhere between or including 6-4 and 7-3 for Luigi.
 

Toronto Joe

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60-40 weegee......70-30 is pushing it a little too far

once you realize what not to do vs him it becomes much easier, just dont treat this like a usual matchup, because weegee forces you to think outside the box
 

M@v

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Updated the front page ^_^

Luigi is brutal....all of his aerials beat all of yours. He owns the air, and their is nothing you can do about it. If it wasnt for a couple of the really bad matchups he has(ex. MK), and the predictable path of his recovery, luigi would be higher on the tier list. Its very hard for fox to gimp him though. Luigi got kill power and priority, but one of his weakness is the lack of range on his kill moves.
 

Toronto Joe

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im asking for a video camera for christmas, i cant explain how to play these matchups but i will show how to if i get it
 

Lightning93

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im asking for a video camera for christmas, i cant explain how to play these matchups but i will show how to if i get it
Dazzle's are cheaper and have better quality! ;)

I really don't need to say anymore, everything was really well covered. But does everyone agree this is a harder match for Fox than it was against Wario? And some people say it's not exactly 70:30, so can we agree 65:35?

Love the weegee pic, just need those summaries lol. It must be a pain to always update them so there's not too much of a rush from me.
 

Fenrir VII

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Oh yeah, it's definitely MUCH harder than Wario... at least for me... I mean, I could just be bad at the match... I go about 40-60 against luigi players, but it always feels in their favor... it's just frustrating.

i'd love for somebody to say how Fox would have an advantage in this match. I'd actually like to know, but yeah. this is among the hardest matches Fox has. I personally find it harder than Zelda, but I'm not imposing any implications of that nature. : )
 

Lightning93

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i'd love for somebody to say how Fox would have an advantage in this match. I'd actually like to know, but yeah. this is among the hardest matches Fox has. I personally find it harder than Zelda, but I'm not imposing any implications of that nature. : )
Lol, you got me there, I have yet to find one. You do really have to think "outside of the box."

The only reason why Luigi isn't harder for us, considering we virtually have no advantages, is because Fox's style isn't completely destroyed.

What we need to do here is arrange these shambles of style into a brand new weegeepiece!

Fox's defensive game is not bad, but being someone of speed and pressure, it's very awkward to be in that position. I feel the same way with Marths, I missed that discussion but I feel awkward there as well because I am forced to defend until I get a chance to retaliate. So, even though it may be against your nature play a defensive game.
 

SmashBrother2008

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I think we've brougt up everything there is to know about Luigi's matchup by now. I say 65:35 Luigi. His biggest saver is his Nair and that is basically what had turned this whole matchup against us.
 

Toronto Joe

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Lucario then Peach sounds good to me.......Mario doesnt really give me that much trouble but if alot of people are having problems i dont mind?

and whats a dazzle?, can i record irl tournie matches with that?
 

Lightning93

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I'm fine with whatever next.

And @ Toronto this is a dazzle:

http://pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/u...azzle+Video+Archiving/Dazzle+DVD+Recorder.htm

There are more expensive ones with higher quality, but these video capture devices are the best way to record gameplay. I use the one for mac, but you need computer connections as well and some extra RCA wires. If you do happen to get one, look on youtube on how to set it up. It'd be a problem to record tourneys in person though, unless there is a computer nearby...
 

gantrain05

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we can discuss peach, she's my main and fox its my tetriary or however you spell that lol, imo fox is just too easy for peach, super gimpable, perfect weight for Dair combos to work, can chaingrab fox into a Ftilt > Utilt, and her autocancelled arials make it hard for fox to punish, and her air/float game makes it hard for fox to even start a Dair combo on her that she can break out of Utilt by simply floating. its not an easy one for fox.
 
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