Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[stabbedbyanipple]

Hey guys, new to the forums. This is my first post.

I had a few questions about ledge invulnerability. I used to main falcon and as I started familiarizing myself with 20GX tech, I realized that my fingers weren't as slow as I originally thought and started playng some fox. I know with falcon you can either fastfall from ledge and regrab while still remaining invulnerable or you can hax dash. I also know that with falcon you can regrab ledge after 30 frames and the cliffgrab animation lasts 7 frames.

Just want to know the options fox has for maintaining ledge invulnerability and the frame data behind them. I've been doing one where I fastfall and immediately jump with the control stick and then firefox and I'm decently consistent with it but I'm not sure if it's the best option

There are at least 3 ways I know of to invincible ledge stall

Firefox ledgestall (Most used variation and sounds like it's the one you do. I've heard the optimal way is to press diagonally away, between the 45 degree notch and 0 degree notch, when doing your up b. Doing it that way allows you to drop from the ledge and up B with one angle without having to rotate the joystick at all)

Shine firefox ledgestall (Second most common, my preferred variation because imo it's the easiest to do and carries 0 risk of killing yourself off a missed input)

side b ledge stall (No one does this as their go to. By far harder than the first two and you die 100% if you mess up but it looks cool lol)

If you're at no risk of getting hit from your opponent (i.e. they're respecting your ledge dash space and keeping out of the distance), ledge hop fast fall regrab is a fast and extremely easy way to refresh invincibility without risking a difficult input (press back, immediately double jump and then fast fall back to the ledge).

Edit:

I play against a Peach that loves to FC Fair, land, and then jab right away. What's the best punish for this? I was thinking Nair, but I haven't tried it yet. If so, when is the best time to do it? If you guys have any other solutions I'd love to hear them.

After CC percent, you can nair into her after the fair and at worst you'll trade with jabs

If you run up and shield the jabs (NOT the fair lol), you can punish out of shield

If you have room, you can a little out of her jab range after the FC fair and bait her into something more unsafe like dash attack

Similar to the last point, if you take to the air through fullhops/platforms, she'll be forced to catch you with aerials which require her to extend much more

Remember, although you CAN challenge her pressure directly, outmaneuvering her plays much more into Fox's character strengths and peach's inherit weaknesses.

 

[BRUJO~]

Hey guys, new to the forums. This is my first post.

I had a few questions about ledge invulnerability. I used to main falcon and as I started familiarizing myself with 20GX tech, I realized that my fingers weren't as slow as I originally thought and started playng some fox. I know with falcon you can either fastfall from ledge and regrab while still remaining invulnerable or you can hax dash. I also know that with falcon you can regrab ledge after 30 frames and the cliffgrab animation lasts 7 frames.

Just want to know the options fox has for maintaining ledge invulnerability and the frame data behind them. I've been doing one where I fastfall and immediately jump with the control stick and then firefox and I'm decently consistent with it but I'm not sure if it's the best option

Firefox ledgestall is completely invulnerable, but you need to be pretty frame perfect. You press back off the ledge then immediately up b. You don't need to jump or anything. I don't know about frame data, but you just press back on the first frame you cam drop off the ledge then up b as quickly as you can

 

[Squirrell]

I have a friend who plays Marth and, as a Puff main, that's hell to begin with. So of course normally I'd go to my secondary, Sheik, since she's supposed to be a hard counter? It's his favorite matchup. He practically begs me to play Sheik and he bodies me every time I do. So I've been playing Fox into his Marth instead, and it's been helping me do a lot better.

My problem now is that he's adjusted his playstyle to just countering any approach with jabs, and there's not much I can think of to do about it. It's frustrating because I thought Marth's jab was supposed to be bad. Lol. The only reliable thing I've figured out is full-hopping over him with Bair, but now every time he sees me full-hop he just throws out a Utilt. I can laser camp him, but it almost never fails that he can find a way in with his stupid sword and I can hardly do anything about it.

So, how do I beat a hyper-defensive Marth in neutral if I can't laser camp him reliably?

 

[Schill]

Thanks for the help up there guys^^.

Another quick question though. I can't multishine. I know it's really only practical for shield pressure but in addition to that, anything where I only have a few frames to go from button to button with the same finger. Getting better with shine grabs since that requires the jump with my thumb followed by the JC grab with my index finger but for example, I can't SHDL.

Can't think of another example right now but should I worry about getting my finger speed up for stuff like multishines and SHDL or just focus on other things for the time being?

 

[theMagnumDragon]

Hey guys, new to the forums. This is my first post.

I had a few questions about ledge invulnerability. I used to main falcon and as I started familiarizing myself with 20GX tech, I realized that my fingers weren't as slow as I originally thought and started playng some fox. I know with falcon you can either fastfall from ledge and regrab while still remaining invulnerable or you can hax dash. I also know that with falcon you can regrab ledge after 30 frames and the cliffgrab animation lasts 7 frames.

Just want to know the options fox has for maintaining ledge invulnerability and the frame data behind them. I've been doing one where I fastfall and immediately jump with the control stick and then firefox and I'm decently consistent with it but I'm not sure if it's the best option

The firestall is the overall safest method and it is frame perfect and you can't use a shine to make it easier if you want that perfection, but many foxes will just drop down and sweet spot the ledge again to refresh since most players are not willing to challenge Fox down in that position. I think there is some merit for doing a higher ledge refresh like PPMD does with Falco. He does it around the 1 min mark. Basically he double jumps from the ledge drifts back as he goes up and drifts in as he comes back down. Can be tough for the opponent to deal with because you are threatening illusion the whole time.

So, in conclusion, work on the frame perfect up b firestall, but you can usually get away with sweet spotting double jump. Experiment with unorthodox methods!

 

[Comet7]

the only thing that's hard about the firestall is that you have to let go of the edge on the first possible frame. i'm pretty sure this is frame 8 since fox's ledge grab animation is 7 frames long. you have some leniency with the firestall. actually like to shine while doing the stall just because i can.

 

[Mywhy]

You can do firefox ledgestall(either back on the stick then upB or back on cstick then upb) or shine>firefox ledgestall(downB>upB). The firefox ledgestall, while a bit harder, is one frame faster. Fastfall>jump>up-b is very unsafe because you lose a lot of your invulnerable frames during the fastfall and jump.

 

[TrevR]

I just got back from a relatively large local (56 melee entrants) and I did 2-2. It was pretty fine for me, much better than I did when I started. I had to play this Falcon, who normally I should beat, but he kept dthrowing me and then tech chasing, and it got me. Now, obviously I have to work on not getting grabbed, but what can I really do when a Falcon (or Sheik) has me with grabs/tech chases/reads?

 

[BRUJO~]

I just got back from a relatively large local (56 melee entrants) and I did 2-2. It was pretty fine for me, much better than I did when I started. I had to play this Falcon, who normally I should beat, but he kept dthrowing me and then tech chasing, and it got me. Now, obviously I have to work on not getting grabbed, but what can I really do when a Falcon (or Sheik) has me with grabs/tech chases/reads?

If you miss the tech and they try to jab reset you, you can SDI the jab upwards and jump out before they grab you. other than that, just buffer spot dodge (hold c-stick down and L/R) and hope they are not perfect, which most people are not every time.

 

[TrevR]

Can someone who's done something similar to this give me any small tips for practice?

 

[BRUJO~]

I tend to post a decent bit in this thread, and I'm hoping to soon make it so that I'm no longer asking things but helping others with their play. I'm about to start real practice for this game. I've got a schedule made, covering tech/movement practice, combo-ing, and MU studying. A solo session will take 44 minutes, and I'll do it as often as I can (probably more than once every two days). Can someone who's done something similar to this give me any small tips for practice?

Don't get distracted. If you are practicing ledge dashes, practice them for 10 minutes un-interupted.
Practice the important stuff. Short hopping every time, fast falling on the first frame, nair/bair as late as possible, shine on the forst frame after landing. Focus your practice on the tech that is most pertinent to actual gameplay.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I have trouble with playing against Roy on Yoshi's Story, do you guys have any advice for Roy?

 

[TrevR]

I have trouble with playing against Roy on Yoshi's Story, do you guys have any advice for Roy?

Don't get hit

 

[bearsfan092]

This is a dumb question for as long as I've been playing. What's the proper way to DI Fox backthrow shine? It just hasn't come up much for whatever reason

 

[~Twitch~]

This is a dumb question for as long as I've been playing. What's the proper way to DI Fox backthrow shine? It just hasn't come up much for whatever reason

The thing about back throw (I assume near the edge) is that there's just a lot of nuance that happens during this exchange.

You can mix up DI to confuse the opponent but if you're di'ing down then be prepared to recover low but you also don't have to worry about being shine spiked really in this position, if you DI in or up you can double jump away or do high phantasm shenanigans with shortens and all that stuff. Shine stalling is also an option here to test your opponents patience and give yourself time to think.

When recovering low in this situation I usually try and use my double jump to hug the stage so I can get a tech jump -> illusion on stage when they shine my recovery.

I would try reacting differently to when each person back throws you because there's just so many different things that can happen during this situation. I don't really think there is a best way to handle it either, just try to be creative and flexible.

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I normally recover low like the person said above me.

 

[bearsfan092]

Awesome. Thanks for the info Twitch. Hope to see you do some work in 2016

 

[MokeyMokey]

The post match interview from Leffen after the money match vs SFAT left me confused. He talks about how SFAT can't even hit drill to grab and that drill to grab is part of the "hard stuff" on par with invincible ledgedash and shine-gimp on firefox.

When I search for drill to grab I only find the usual shffl aerial to shine-grab. Is that what he meant? Why does he say it's part of the hard stuff?
I mean even shffl dair to grab doesn't even sound hard to do and tbh it doesn't even sound like a good and safe option to me.

Why drill to grab?? lol

 

[bearsfan092]

The post match interview from Leffen after the money match vs SFAT left me confused. He talks about how SFAT can't even hit drill to grab and that drill to grab is part of the "hard stuff" on par with invincible ledgedash and shine-gimp on firefox.

When I search for drill to grab I only find the usual shffl aerial to shine-grab. Is that what he meant? Why does he say it's part of the hard stuff?
I mean even shffl dair to grab doesn't even sound hard to do and tbh it doesn't even sound like a good and safe option to me.

Why drill to grab?? lol

Mechanically not very hard, but it's got some Street Fighter-like timing to it. Resident frame nerd taukhan (I say that lovingly ) wrote about it at http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-806#post-19729555

 

[Comet7]

is waveland faster than NIL on the top platforms at battlefield, yoshi's, and dreamland?

 

[MokeyMokey]

Mechanically not very hard, but it's got some Street Fighter-like timing to it. Resident frame nerd taukhan (I say that lovingly ) wrote about it at http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-806#post-19729555

Thanks a lot!

 

[Comet7]

I have trouble with playing against Roy on Yoshi's Story, do you guys have any advice for Roy?

roy has a hard time getting hits because he's a slower marth in neutral. you can cc pretty much everything except ded and down tilt after mid %. his up throw followups are pretty meh since it has a launch angle of 96% which means you can DI so he can't ever f smash you at kill % out of it but i forget what the optimal DI is for that. once you get to mid-high % he pretty much has no good options out of up throw and will probably try to tech chase you. try not to let him get an f smash. if he throws you off stage, you actually have a decent chance of coming back if you can reach platforms since roy's platform coverage is pretty meh. the scariest thing he can do until really high % is jump up there and grab you which takes a while. if you don't, then cry for getting hit. you can probably tech about everything he can do if you ride up a wall but idk about that. don't try to gimp him unless you're able to do an invincible nair. shine can probably do it too, but i haven't experimented with that.

 

[Schill]

Just wondering, I've been trying to pick up falco as well and I want to know if the fox and falco lede dashes are the smae exact inputs on the same exact frames. I would check myself but I don't have 20xx

 

[Kadano]

Just wondering, I've been trying to pick up falco as well and I want to know if the fox and falco lede dashes are the smae exact inputs on the same exact frames. I would check myself but I don't have 20xx

Falco has to air dodge one frame later basically.

 

[Chainz]

Lately my movement around the stage has been pretty bad, I feel like I'm pressing my inputs too fast, causing me to whiff or get "stuck".

But im not too sure if I have to slow it down a bit, or if theres something else I'm missing?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Lately my movement around the stage has been pretty bad, I feel like I'm pressing my inputs too fast, causing me to whiff or get "stuck".

But im not too sure if I have to slow it down a bit, or if theres something else I'm missing?

Two things could be happening here:

1) Your joystick is getting too loose, which is making your inputs less firm. Try this experiment, grab your controller by the handles and shake it lightly. If you can hear/see your control stick moving about a lot on its own then it's quite loose. If this is the case, my advice to you is never carry around your controller unprotected in a backpack (get some kind of box/case to hold it in so the joystick doesn't touch anything), and don't ever leave your controller upside down with the joystick touching the ground. Those two things wear out a joystick quickly

2) You're just getting in your own head. Actually a very common thing to happen. In this case: take a few breaths, don't think about any perceived flaws in your movement (focus on your breath), and practice moving around while FEELING the inputs your hands are making. Naturally your movement will smooth out on it's own.

 

[Pάρί]

Can someone give me the basics of the peach mu?

Can you give me some videos to watch for the mu?

 

[TrevR]

Can someone give me the basics of the peach mu?

Can you give me some videos to watch for the mu?

You have to be smart playing against Peach. She's like a wall. You don't want to run up to her all willy nilly or you will get destroyed. My preferred method of getting her is to DD with some WDs added to the mix, then when she tries to attack, space just out of it then go in for a kill. Uthrow uair works wonders, but waveshine usmash is ****ing amazing. Other than that, try not to get hit.

Also, use vods.co for matches. Go to the melee section, then you can put in Fox v Peach. You should probably watch any of the gods' Fox's play against Armada or MacD.

 

[Comet7]

if you go to dreamland against peach, laser as much as possible. she can't do much about it since lasers > turnips and she's slow.

 

[Scervo]

I was just curious what the logic behind using run-up-shield against falco is. I see mango do this a ton but it seems like falco is one of the characters with the most tools for dealing with shield (westballz pressure, grab, shffl shines, shinegrab) so I dont really understand the logic behind it being used against falco rather than other characters. Am I missing something? Seems like it would work better against anyone that ISNT falco (or another fox).

 

[Bijan]

I was just curious what the logic behind using run-up-shield against falco is. I see mango do this a ton but it seems like falco is one of the characters with the most tools for dealing with shield (westballz pressure, grab, shffl shines, shinegrab) so I dont really understand the logic behind it being used against falco rather than other characters. Am I missing something? Seems like it would work better against anyone that ISNT falco (or another fox).

What run-up shield is doing against a Falco is taking the pressure to them. Falco needs to keep his distance on Fox and keep him on lockdown. Basically the Falco has to always be applying pressure. But if a Fox gets real up close then the pressure is on the Falco because that is really the key in the Fox Falco matchup. The Fox has to get in close and put pressure on the Falco and run up shield is a great way to get close without being too heavily punished.

 

[Bijan]

Also, does anyone have any good Fox solo drills to practice? I've put together a very successful daily practice regimen (although I can't say I uphold the "daily" part of that very well lol). But I want to know if any of you guys have any good solo drills that you have practiced on your own that have helped your game out a lot?

 

[Bijan]

I was just curious what the logic behind using run-up-shield against falco is. I see mango do this a ton but it seems like falco is one of the characters with the most tools for dealing with shield (westballz pressure, grab, shffl shines, shinegrab) so I dont really understand the logic behind it being used against falco rather than other characters. Am I missing something? Seems like it would work better against anyone that ISNT falco (or another fox).

And also, Fox's out of shield options>Falco's shield pressure.

 

[Bijan]

This is a dumb question for as long as I've been playing. What's the proper way to DI Fox backthrow shine? It just hasn't come up much for whatever reason

I found I can't usually hit it if my opponent DIs out. They can get out of the hitstun very easy that way. Whenever they have no DI or DI in I always hit it. The best thing I would say to do is DI out on the b-throw and then don't be predictible with your recovery. The amount of times I've caught my friend with the shinespike just becuase he dosen't know how to deal with the back throw is insane.

 

[ThatLittleFatGirl]

This has definitely been asked before but i don't want to search through 813 pages...lol.

I am wondering what the best way to practice solo is. I've seen myself improve a lot playing against actual people but sometimes I don't have that opportunity. Anything from stages to movement and etc. Any advice for an upcoming fox main would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks!

 

[tauKhan]

Mechanically not very hard, but it's got some Street Fighter-like timing to it. Resident frame nerd taukhan (I say that lovingly ) wrote about it at http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-advice-questions-topic.98202/page-806#post-19729555

MokeyMokey I just found out that because the formula I used to calculate stun had a different interpretation of "hitstun", the hitstun of drill is 1 frame less than I thought in the linked post. So drill grab needs to be done frame perfect to true combo (it's +7 on hit), and has only 2 frame window to beat spot dodge, which is very hard with a move like drill. Also ASDI behind -> shine beats drill turn grab.

Making drill grab a consistent option vs opponent who knows how to counter it is probably very hard. To get an idea of how hard it is, you can try to combo drill -> utilt on bowser in training mode, which is equally tight as drill grab on fox vs spot dodge.

 

[Bijan]

This has definitely been asked before but i don't want to search through 813 pages...lol.

I am wondering what the best way to practice solo is. I've seen myself improve a lot playing against actual people but sometimes I don't have that opportunity. Anything from stages to movement and etc. Any advice for an upcoming fox main would be greatly appreciated as well. Thanks!

What I do is get in a game by myself, no cpu. And I just practice moving around the stage. I practice various things like reps of drill shines, reps of waveshines, reps of multishines, reps of SHDLs, and just various tech skill things. That is really the only thing you can do to practice alone, just practice tech skill, because the cpus are no help at all. Also I play a lot of Netplay. As much hate as it gets I think Netplay is a great way to play with others when you don't have anyone available in person. The minor lag you get from Netplay is barely noticible as long as you have a decent PC, decent internet, and make sure to play only with people in your area.

 

[SSBMLahti]

Is grounded shine out of shield a 1 frame input?

 

[tauKhan]

Is grounded shine out of shield a 1 frame input?

No, it's impossible. For lowest possible shine, you ofc need to shine ASAP after the jump takes off. Frame 6 is the earliest you can do a grounded jump after fastest shine OoS, so it's practically "grounded" in many situations, but it's not difficult to dj before you land if you hit someone for example.

 

[dlai226]

Very noob question: How do people go from the grabbing the ledge to side platform/waveland on side platform?

Other noob question: What should I be doing in the Luigi match up? I'm not having trouble per se but I'd like to be more consistent or at least have a gameplan in mind.