Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[bearsfan092]

Stupid question that I'm sure everyone else knows the answer to (consider I can't find it anywhere), but how come I can't react to Fox's side-b when I'm edge-guarding? I know Falco's is significantly harder to react to, but with Fox's it just feels like I'm moving my fingers as fast as I can to ledge-hop > b-air but I always miss by half a second. I see tons of really good players getting the edge-guard like it's a piece of cake but it's actually hard for me.

Any tips for working on this?

What I do, and what I think most good players do, is preprocess where the side B is going to happen and then cover those spots. If you were at Battlefield, the spots I'd think are:

1. Top platform
2. Side platform (watch for edge cancel)
3. Someone trying to jank me out and hit me directly
4. Ledge

It sounds like you're struggling the most with 3 and 4. I always start by defending myself and the main stage by being mentally prepared to bair away any side B attempts directly at me. Typically that means I'm facing inward toward the stage threatening a bair or utilt in the perspective of my opponent. I try to hold that mindset until I notice they drop down or upB, and then I wavedash to ledge to either ledgehog (in the case of side B) or ledgehop bair (both cases but more applicble to upB).

The real point of this post is to try to get a mental flowchart that you can recall like the back of your hand and get very comfortable doing it. Hopefully with a few friendlies to try it out, you'll have it down. Just remember that in any fast situation, it's very useful to have a plan so that you spend less time processing what's happening and more brainpower on actually executing.

Anyways my turn to ask for help.

What are some effective ways to punish Falco on retreating dair under the inner lip of a platform? By that, I mean the Falco does a retreating dair and ends up under the inner lip. Obviously you can't do any sort of overhead with the platform (and excessive reliance on overheads is really bad in that MU anyway). I'm trying to brainstorm solutions and I don't really like most of them:

1. Grab the landing. Difficult since the point of a fading aerial is to attack as you leave the danger zone. Requires a read.
2. Running shine. Requires a bit of a read and some pretty tight timing/spacing so as to not get hit by the dair on the run-in.
3. Just respect it and take the small bit of stage they gave to me. This actually is the most logical solution in my eyes, but if this happens in a tournament situation where I'm behind, I might want a more material punish.
4. Take the platform above them and threaten a dropdown aerial. Puts me at risk by placing me over the Falco, which also gives up the slightly advantageous stage position I had.

I'm kinda thinking I should just respect the fact that he's covering himself and just take some of the space he vacated. Thoughts?

 

[powergamer]

Is starting up nair as soon as you leave the ground generally the most optimal use of nair? In other words, aside from times when I want to delay when I throw out nair, should I always be trying to get nair out as soon as possible from when I leave the ground?

 

[Pud'N]

Is starting up nair as soon as you leave the ground generally the most optimal use of nair? In other words, aside from times when I want to delay when I throw out nair, should I always be trying to get nair out as soon as possible from when I leave the ground?

If possible late nair is optimal. If you always approach with early nair then youre just going to get shieldgrabbed unless you are punishing some form of lag. Late nair disables/strongly weakens their OoS options because you have less lag time compared to the shield stun.

Mix it up though, because having the nair hitbox out early is useful as well because it protects you, but i feel like early nair is better as like a beating an approach option

A good example of hard to punish shield pressure that uses both late and early nair would be > Late nair > Shine > Early Nair > Shine

The late nair is hard to punish when shielded in general and the early nair afterwards prevents you from getting shieldgrabbed right after the shine. Obviously shield pressure isnt inescapapble and this is all (and whatever pressure after) is going to have to be spaced an you better be ready to react to a roll or whatever, but this is pretty good

Hope this was helpful for more than what you asked

 

[Pud'N]

Hey what do you guys think is a good stage for practicing lots of movement and techskill? Obvs the neautral stages are practical, but the non legal stages have places that enable more inputs and feel like they help more

Personally i practice on Onett, but what about you guys? Any recommendations?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Hey Fox mains,

I was watching So Much Style Part 2 and I noticed that in the opening sequence, Mango does some wavedash back and then nairs with the momentum from the WD (https://youtu.be/36JUiqRnrXk?t=3s). How can I do this?

 

[SamSun]

As simple as it sounds, haha
You just jump the moment that you're able to after wavedashing, and you carry some of your momentum.
practice until you can feel the exact moment you're able to jump

 

[bearsfan092]

The wavedash back momentum nair is super good by the way. A lot of applications in maintaining a corner position. Cactuar was the first Fox I noticed it with. If you start to lose containment at the corner because they went to the side platform, you can do the wavedash back nair and cover a run off aerial with proper spacing, which in turn forces them to take top platform or else respect the space you covered.

I also used to do this janky thing (again on corner) where I'd dash dance, and on the the dash away I'd wavedash back toward them with a bair. It's definitely more of a gambit built on the idea of them biting on a long dash away and suddenly getting hit by this long hitbox than a real thing, and I don't really advocate its use.

 

[Pάρί]

So I have a few questions I would like someone to answer

How do I shine grab?
How do I shine out of shield?
Is it possible to double shine out of shield? Is it practical?
How do I boost grab?
How do I jump cancel up smash?


How can I improve my neutral game as fox?


And where can I get started on learning frames / understanding then? ( This one isn't a fox question but I just wanted to ask lol )

 

[Pud'N]

So I have a few questions I would like someone to answer

How do I shine grab?
How do I shine out of shield?
Is it possible to double shine out of shield? Is it practical?
How do I boost grab?
How do I jump cancel up smash?


How can I improve my neutral game as fox?


And where can I get started on learning frames / understanding then? ( This one isn't a fox question but I just wanted to ask lol )

Id ask you to from this point on refer to these more basic terminology questions through a bit o independent research, but for this one I'll answer in order.

1. Shine > Jump >Grab (very fast, basically all one motion)
2. Shield > Jump > Shine (stay as close to the ground as you can)
3. Yes you can but it is not very practical. More practical is to shine OoS and then waveland in place/wherever
4. Dash Attack > Grab (all one motion)
5. Run/Shield > Flick Cstick and Control stick up together ( it will feel like its at the same time but the control stick has to go first so u jump)


Fox neutral game is a whole other paragraph. Id suggest looking at a guide on here, studying some videos, or accept this blatant crap advice: Nair more. Shine more. shoot lazers when they are far or floaty. Dash Dance Grab alot. Punish tech reads with grab/usmas.

Basically every character in this game has a hitbox compilation with frames and all as well as Misc. frame data courtesy of SDM, Stratocaster, and Standardtoaster. Stickied on every single character forum.

 

[looking guy]

Hey guys, I have a technical issue here, and it is one of the very few technics I'm yet to be able to perform cosistently with Fox and that is the walk/run off the stage>shine>turnaround inside the shine>up b (firefox) to sweetspot the ledge. What usually happens to me is that I turnaround in the shine but get stuck in it. Any advice?

 

[Pud'N]

Hey guys, I have a technical issue here, and it is one of the very few technics I'm yet to be able to perform cosistently with Fox and that is the walk/run off the stage>shine>turnaround inside the shine>up to sweetspot the ledge. What usually happens to me is that I turnaround in the shine but get stuck in it. Any advice?

Do it slower. Slightly. Because youre also turning around in the shine there is a slight amount more time before you can jump out.
Not uber slow, its still a quick fluid input, but its not as fast as just jumping out

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There is a little bit of lag when turning around, roughly 4 frames IIRC. You are getting nothing because your jump input is occuring during this. If you are using to jump then you want to turn around in the shine, wait a small amount, then press up+b.

 

[looking guy]

but the normal way to do it is doing a semi circle with the stick from down (shine), going to the side (turn around) and up (+b: firefox) .is'n it?

 

[tauKhan]

There is a little bit of lag when turning around, roughly 4 frames IIRC. You are getting nothing because your jump input is occuring during this. If you are using to jump then you want to turn around in the shine, wait a small amount, then press up+b.

It's 3 frames for shine turnaround. Also if you tap jump at an angle that causes both jump and turn in shine (up and slightly away), you get buffered jump after the turn, which guarantees you don't get stuck.

 

[looking guy]

It's 3 frames for shine turnaround. Also if you tap jump at an angle that causes both jump and turn in shine (up and slightly away), you get buffered jump after the turn, which guarantees you don't get stuck.

So could that be the best/easiest way to do it?

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

This I'm just curious but for Up Throw to Shine Up Smash to hit does the opponent have to DI up, is it Frame Perfect or what?

 

[tauKhan]

So could that be the best/easiest way to do it?

Probably yeah, it's very easy. However if the shine hits, you still need to delay the input because of hitlag.

 

[Estwood]

Anyone have advice for the ditto? I'm practicing punishing and the neutral.

 

[bearsfan092]

Some stuff I find helpful for the Fox ditto:

1. Give plenty of respect to the Fox. Fox is fast as hell both in movement and attack speed. Toward center stage I would minimize high commitment attacks (if you aerial definitely overshoot). Once you have advantage in stage position, keep him out with bairs and retreating aerials until your opponent respects that, and then you can move in for the grab. If the neutral position is relatively even, give the Fox space because he can get on top of you pretty fast.

Some people like using the gun if the match devolves into both players respecting each other. Idk how I feel about that yet. Feels like using the gun gives the opportunity for the other Fox to slowly take stage, but there are a fair amount of really high level Foxes that do it so what do I know?

2. Know your punishes and combo starters for this matchup. Anything that can help you line up a grab is amazing, particularly since grabbing in neutral is pretty hard in the ditto, even off of whiffed aerials (high attack speed, shine, etc.). Be proficient at getting jab resets off of running shine, drill shine, low percent nairshine. Get good at drillgrabs especially if they start SDIing drills away.

3. Knowing when to shine. Shine is good at lower percents since it leads into knockdowns and combo starters, but it's not quite as effective off of bairs and nairs at higher percent except to cover your ass off of a whiff or on block. If you connect a nair or bair, resist the urge to shine and instead start chasing. Shining unnecessarily or out of fear really kills your ability to follow up.

4. Work on platform techchasing. You can upthrow into FH uair when tossing someone onto a platform. If they miss the tech or tech in place, the upair hits. If they tech left or right and you miss the upair, you can hit with a dash attack on the follow up or get a regrab. For a simpler punish, and particularly at higher percents, you can just upthrow, see how they land on the platform, and then bair to set up an edgeguard.

5. Stay grounded. Fox has the most options available when on the ground, so work your dash dance game. You'll need all the options you can get.

If you want one interpretation of how to play the ditto, check out how Marths play against Fox. A lot of DD baiting into a grab, followed by a big punish. You can play Fox this way in a lot of matchups, and this one is no exception. Only difference is that you have a lot more approach potential than Marth, so directly turning up the heat is an option to be used judiciously.

Mind you I don't consider myself to be a Fox ditto god, but this is a bunch of stuff I've picked up to try to systematically break it down to make it easier for myself. The results have been positive so far, so hopefully they'll be helpful to you too.

 

[AnEnemyMongoose]

Thanks to those who answered my question earlier.

I have a friend who's curious about Fox and I just told him about the "high learning curve" and "fast reflexes" concept. So it got me thinking: what would you, fellow Fox mains, say is the optimal reaction time that a player should get in order to play Fox efficiently (like, the "Hax" kind of efficiently)?

 

[bearsfan092]

It's not so much about a reaction time in the physiological sense as much as training yourself mentally about the fast situations so you can spend less time thinking and more time doing. If you want a baseline time to play Fox (or really anyone), try to get proficient at punishing someone's aerial in the lag of a successful L cancel.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Came back to the fox boards to see BearsFan running ****.
Its a good day.

 

[bearsfan092]

I do this for you dad

 

[Ya Boy GP]

I would appreciate it if someone could critique this set, I'm not very good against doc, so there's that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7tIDtGA0Uc

 

[Spluvin]

Ledgedashing is so very hard for me. Do anyone of you know the frame data of the perfect ledgedash with fox? Like let go on frame, 1 jump on frame x, trigger on frame y.

 

[Wassabi1320]

Does anyone know what frame you can jump after the up throw to up air puff and peach? I seem to be always missing the up air follow up

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For almost every throw in the game, the length of the throw animation changes based on the weight of the character.

This is a list of data for throws and how their speeds are affected by weight. If unaffected, the throw animations on all characters will be the same. With the throws that are affected, heavier characters will make the animation play through slower while lighter chars will be faster. The more it is slowed down, the greater the total time between when they are released and when the throw ends becomes and will be harder to follow up, and the opposite is true for when it's sped up.

http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/

 

[bearsfan092]

Does anyone know what frame you can jump after the up throw to up air puff and peach? I seem to be always missing the up air follow up

I'm bad at frame data, but hit that up in 20xx with the idle stand color overlay. You won't catch every dead frame, but you'll get a lot of them.

 

[Diana's Safe Landing]

Does anyone know what frame you can jump after the up throw to up air puff and peach? I seem to be always missing the up air follow up

After you upthrow you can buffer shield (just hold R/L) to see the first possible frame that you can start jumping. You can also buffer shield and jump (Hold R/L and c-stick up) which will make you jump on the second possible frame if this helps you see the jump timing better. The timing on puff is very fast due to very little lag after upthrowing her. Practice on 20xx puffs its really important to be able to do this combo on all types of DI.

 

[voorhese]

Looking for some advice! http://www.twitch.tv/iubsmash/b/645711620?t=10h46m57s BE HARSH PLEASE

 

[Ryan1016]

At what weight does drill -> up-smash stop being a true combo?

 

[Arche]

Are there any downsides to double-shining every time you do an aerial while not comboing ?
If the opponent shields, double-shining is only detrimental if he rolls, but anyway I won't have time to react to that fast enough, will I ?
If the opponent gets hit, double-shining will still allow me to get the tech-chase (although maybe not guaranteed, I don't know). If the opponent is wave-shinable, I would need to be really fast to get the follow-up though.
In both cases, double-shining makes it easier to confirm whether you've hit the shield or the opponent.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Matchup matters, for one. You will have no followup on marth who gets hit by your shines. This is probably true for anyone who doesn't fall from shine since you only have so many frames leeway to make it a true combo, and you wont be wavedashing immediately after your 2nd shine to chase them because of reaction time.

If the opponent rolls during your double shine, the 2nd shine should hit them before they move if you are doing it quick enough. Spotdodge would avoid the 2nd shine, but it doesnt move them so they should still be easily pressured.


Double shining should not be used to confirm whether youve hit a person or a shield, a double shine should be used as a conscious mixup to punish someone's action out of shield. It can also be used as at the very edge of the stage to push someone farther than a single shine would, but I dont think thats what we are discussing here. Nair->double shine on someone who is not shielding is simply a waste of a combo, because you probably shouldnt have even done the first shine.

 

[Arche]

Nair->double shine on someone who is not shielding is simply a waste of a combo, because you probably shouldnt have even done the first shine.

I feel like I can't react to hitting a shield or not. Is there enough time between the moment your hit connects with the opponent/shield and the moment you can act after the aerial lag to consistantly confirm whether you hit the opponent or his shield ?
If not, that means trying to react to the hit will get you grabbed sometimes.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is the concept of hit confirming.

The simple answer to your question is yes, though reaction time and observation are a factor.

 

[bearsfan092]

Agh don't be that guy who automatically goes for a shine after aerials.

I lost 1.5 years of time that could have been way more productive with that ****. Take it from sveet. Learn to hit confirm. You should have a rough idea whether something will hit or not before it happens anyway. Especially if you can bait something out.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How can Foxes do aerial shines into DJ aerials (https://youtu.be/mYgopUL8kk8?t=3m14s)

 

[CeLL]

How can Foxes do aerial shines into DJ aerials (https://youtu.be/mYgopUL8kk8?t=3m14s)

Shine -> jump -> aerial. In that particular example he turned around during the shine, which makes you wait like 3 extra frames before you can jump.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Shine -> jump -> aerial. In that particular example he turned around during the shine, which makes you wait like 3 extra frames before you can jump.

But is it DI dependent? I've tried it a bunch and I can never do it.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

But is it DI dependent? I've tried it a bunch and I can never do it.

I think you gotta DI up for it to work, I may be wrong probably though.

Edit When I do the Ditto I sometimes use a Shine Bair to Mix up their DI since they usually try to DI a normal Bair or Up air