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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

LL87

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
14
What would be the best secondary to counter Marth and Peach on FD? My friend suggested Captain Falcon.
I think fox stands a chance vs both of these characters on FD, but especially vs Peach, whose punish game is insane, no matter which stage you're playing on. If you do not di the throws, her chaingrab goes from 30 to 80 or something.

For marth, you should consider falcon, who does extremely well vs Peach. His punish game is pretty simple, but you have to be careful in the neutral. Or you could go with Sheik : she beats peach (solidly on FD) and marth (I feel it's evenish on this stage, but sheik still wins) cannot be chaingrabed, and is pretty straightforward.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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You should just play fox

Marth is probably the best character in the game on FD, so if you truly want a "counterpick" you're not going to find a winning matchup. If you feel that fox loses badly enough that you can't beat a better opponent on FD (and can't ban it because its 3/5) then sheik/marth are your best two choices.

Again, you should almost definitely just stick to fox, especially vs peach.
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
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I connected a shinegrab on a Falcon. Is that a real thing or extremely specific circumstances?
 

Pr0fessor Flash

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I connected a shinegrab on a Falcon. Is that a real thing or extremely specific circumstances?
It's probably real if you shine the Falcon they can't get out so you can get the grab. It's not that important tbh, maybe you can get it from a running shine.
 

Diana's Safe Landing

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 2, 2014
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Corvallis, OR
you can running shine grab all characters that can be waveshined. Also if they CC your shine you can shinegrab a lot of characters without a running shine. I drill shine grabbed a falcon recently too because he CCd the shine.
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
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How many frames of actionable invincibility do we have after a perfect ledgedash onto a platform on YS or BF?
 

townes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Memphis, TN
I've read through Cunnning's guide and I'm practicing omni's lessons many hours every day. That being said I have a waveshine question. I'm all about the optimal punish every time, but not to the extent of accidentally dropping a punish because the punish I choose is too technically demanding. So I know when characters that are susceptible to waveshine will be killed by usmash, but what do I do at the early and mid percents after I've waveshined someone to the ledge. At first I tried downsmash, but at the early percents and because of where my last waveshine ends, most characters are able to jump back to the ledge with only their DJ and often I'm unable to punish because I'm still in dsmash lag. I've also tried going for the shine gimp to end it, but when my opponent holds down and snaps to the ledge that doesn't work. Recently I've just been opting for usmash to get percent and try to get them as they're coming down. So my question is: what should I do to end my waveshine if the character is not yet usmash killable? Is it something like dsmash character dependent or will shine gimp work on some better than others? And if I force a character to upB onstage, is there ever a situation where I would want to LH bair them or bthrow them back offstage? Thank you fox's.
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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At mid %, you could maybe opt for a N-air, I think it has pretty strong knockback. The F-smash might also work, but I'm not sure about the frame data on if it could connect. A grab is also very beneficial on some characters.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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I say take the dsmash like you did, but then immediately take edge. If you can't take edge, sh bair at their double jump and hope for the best. Sometimes you can't get anything after the dsmash, but more often than not it is the best punish you will get.

Edgeguards are what get you kills. If your combo doesn't convert into an edgeguard, you probably aren't getting a kill.
 

CeLL

Smash Lord
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If a spacie DIs uthrow offstage at lowish-mid percents, what's the best followup? I used to bair them, but recently I've been shine spiking.
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
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For the waveshine question:

Waveshine-->uptilt
waveshine-->fsmash
waveshine-->nair
waveshine-->fthrow

Those are all good alternatives to waveshine upsmash/dsmash in situations where you're not getting what you want out of them. That said, waveshine to upsmash/dsmash are often the best choices. There are too many % dependent and character dependent situations for me to illustrate easily, so you should just brainstorm/experiment, and ask if you have a specific one.

If sheik up-bs and lands on stage, you should *absolutely* be waveshining her all the way across to the other side, then force her off stage in such a way that she can't DJ to the stage without getting hit.
 

Jim Morrison

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Won't be frame-perfect, but what druggedfox said, it's how we pretty much all worked before the 20XX hack pack. Plug in a 2nd controller though, not CPU, it's better at standing still.
 

Jim Morrison

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Since I'm going off to bed I'll only say a few words:

First, vs Falcon you really need to utilize B-air more, wall him out with it. It's very good.

Seoncd: 2nd vid, @ 4:27, you get the chance to U-throw him there. You didn't even bother waiting, you just went for the B-air like he'd be there. If you just wait and look you see him rolling forward and you can U-air it and extend the combo.
8:48 shows the same situation.
I don't know if this is telling of all of your gameplay, but wait more, be more cognizant of what your opponent is doing, look at him more.

Mix up your recovery more as well, your 'jump back and forward B' after getting f-thrown/u-thrown off stage routine got readable very early.

Be faster on the reaction and most definitely don't let opportunities go away for nothing.
7:20, you just caught him and now he had to tech and you see him shielding. Instead of running down, immedeately fall down with a N-air and shine, shine might have caught him as he was slipping off the stage and spiked him. You just gave him free stage and out of shield. You got the punish afterwards though on the F-air so good on you.
At 7:30 he was DEAD. React way faster with the shine there.

Also, not sure about the Yoshis CP, Falcon has a really good time here with easy recovery with platform cancel shenanigans and randall. If there were no bans, you should have taken him to FD, Falcons HATE FD.

and work on your edgeguarding. just wait in front of the ledge and F-smash their recovery. If they have platforms you go up there and B-air them, but the absolute best thing is to just F-smash, it also covers the sweetspot from below.
 
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Pr0fessor Flash

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Fortress | Sveet

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would anyone mind looking at either of these 2 sets i was in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAgTNWnAo9Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laA-honY04I

im Buddy Guysman the blue fox in both sets. would greatly appreciate any feedback. thanks.

edit: also i know my ledgedashes are pitiful and im working on them
Against frizz you made a lot of small mistakes that added up. You were hasty to attack the front of his dash dance. You frequently spotdodge when you think the opponent is coming to grab you, and he got some punishes off it. When tech chasing you often resorted to prediction usmashes, whereas frizz was using reaction to usmash techchase you.

In general it seemed like you were thinking more about where fox is instead where he will be. When you got him locked down you seemed to do really well, your spacing on shield and combo game was pretty good (though you could improve there too). Just as time went on frizz caught onto you and converted that into a win.
 

SSBMLahti

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
1,252
Man, Falco locks me down so hard, especially on Final Destination. How do I avoid lasers and constricted movement while still being able to be unpredictable with my approach? Also, I can't power shield yet which I feel is greatly hindering my game.
 

Youngling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
332
thanks for the help guys. will keep all of what you said in mind.


I CPed to yoshis because sinister plays the lamest falcon and literally only regrab tech chases. he NEVER goes for reads. yoshis let me get off stage as fast as possible while getting tech chased so thats why i go there vs him. usually vs any Falcon i like FD, tho
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
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Jarrettsville, MD
thanks for the help guys. will keep all of what you said in mind.


I CPed to yoshis because sinister plays the lamest falcon and literally only regrab tech chases. he NEVER goes for reads. yoshis let me get off stage as fast as possible while getting tech chased so thats why i go there vs him. usually vs any Falcon i like FD, tho
The difference between getting regrabbed from the center of FD and the center of YS is only going to be 1-2 more throws, which isn't much percent. The entirety of the neutral game and your punish game is going to matter WAY more than extra throw damage here and there, so you honestly should not factor that into your stage selection decision making at all.
 
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Death Arcana

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hey eveyone
im always having trouble getting the l cancel down after a full hop dair or landing with dair on shields
any way to make it a bit easier?
i just don't have the muscle memory down for that one yet

and i couldn't find a critique thread so i hope this is ok to put here
my set against another fox, any tips would be appreciated thank you
im the fox with the RuRi tag
 
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Jim Morrison

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@ Death Arcana Death Arcana :

You missed a lot of punishes after techs. What you often do is just wait for the tech, wait a bit extra and then go in, but you either move too slowly for an instant punish, or wait too short for a read on what they do. Wait longer after they tech, you had the read a few times but kept missing because you covered the initial tech with something which was timed wrong.

You shield too much instead of dodging his attacks. This is most obvious at 6:57. When you saw him use his 2nd jump you could immedeately wavedash OoS and get out of there. Odds are very very big that he will land with an aerial. You can punish this with a grab. Your opponent double jumps a lot in this set and you should look to read that more.

Work on your DI, almost everytime he did an up-throw, you went straight up.

Look at your opponent more. 7:39 should NEVER happen. He charged the F-smash way before you even grabbed the ledge. You can 100% stand up there on reaction. But this was probably tourney nerves. But be aware that this happens and you gotta work on looking at your opponent. 7:48 too, he missed his F-smash, you were too late on the punish. Immediately do a ledgejump N-air to kick him away.

8:37 was good, look at how you got that grab. You just waited for his aerial to land and punish with a grab. You were out of N-air space too, so it would have worked anyway.

Ok let's look at 8:43. You just double jumped and he is grounded, waiting for you. Instinctively he knows you will be desperate to cover yourself with an aerial so he blocks it. Now think about what you could get out of this D-air. He was first up-tilting, so he might look to trade with u-tilt. This would be horrible for you. If he shields... Well it's pretty difficult to get the L-cancel. Good thing you got it, but you could have shined and hit him.
The other option was just empty land -> grab or waveland to escape, if you had the read on his shield.

8:52 You come down with the D-air again. This is where better players would have caught on (2 times in 10 seconds) and dashdance out of the range and grab you out of it.

9:06 You attempted what I'm talking about but it didn't work out. Keep trying and look out for those situations.

9:33 Okay by now you REALLY should have caught on that literally the only thing Staz has been doing is forward smash at the ledge. This knowledge should be getting you free edge every time. A warning for when you start playing better players, you really have to work on your recovery because you're not getting edgeguarded properly and it still works.

9:52 LOL Staz has been doing full hop U-air for 10 seconds straight now. Next time do the waiting thing and grab him for it.

I like how you have the confident read that he will side B to the middle every time now.

10:14 OH **** HE WAS DEAD. I know you saw it and wanted to react to it, but you really didn't have the time to back-air that, so you missed it. Just a full hop N-air would have been the easiest kill. Tournament jitters I think.


Next time, try getting vids vs better players (matches that you lose are much better to critique, because it's hard to tell what you do wrong vs players worse than you).
 

ForgottenLabRat

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
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Lafayette CO
So I figured out a cool little but with fox's shine. When you are dashing and do a shine, you keep some of your momentum. When you do this right on the edge of a platform, you slide off and glide a good distance depending on how close you were to the edge. It is similar to the way ness's down-b is like in PM. Am I the first person to figure out this glitch? It seems like it could be a cool edge guarding tool. I would post a video but I have no way of recording it.
 
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Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
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The thing is you're stuck in your shine, and the only way to get out is using your double jump. It's a bit telegraphed but it might have a niche application I guess.
 

Diana's Safe Landing

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
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186
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Corvallis, OR
So I figured out a cool little but with fox's shine. When you are dashing and do a shine, you keep some of your momentum. When you do this right on the edge of a platform, you slide off and glide a good distance depending on how close you were to the edge. It is similar to the way ness's down-b is like in PM. Am I the first person to figure out this glitch? It seems like it could be a cool edge guarding tool. I would post a video but I have no way of recording it.
You can use it to glide out with a shine and then do a turnaround bair from the shine. It looks stylish but you're hard committing yourself to cover only one option and you're in a pretty bad spot afterwards if you miss.
 

ForgottenLabRat

Smash Journeyman
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Isn't this game is all about the stylins though? Yeah I guess it might not be the most practical edge guarding, but I wanted to see if others would want to know about this cool little trick to throw off their opponent, well thanks for the feed-back.
 
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