Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Rocketpowerchill]

i was wondering if people prefer to sdi with analog or cstick
i want to switch to cstick cuz my left thumb doesnt have as good control

also when you are diing away in a combo are you also asdiing or are you just sdiing, does asdi along wiht sdi help more in a combo

im overwhelmed by how quick i need to be to have good di, and theres little stuff like sdiing jabs -> airdodge that i see veterans doing that i cudnt imagine
how do you know youre getting hit and diing accordingly in such small stuff, i really need to understand this concept cuz im mind****ed again

also how does ccing at higher percents play a role in surviving smashes and stuff, and will that guarantee a ground tech.

i just need to understand surviving and posistioning myself better so i can learn to work at it lol ty

 

[Bones0]

i was wondering if people prefer to sdi with analog or cstick

You can't SDI with the C-stick.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I thought SDI was with C-stick and normal DI with the analog stick?

Or am I mixing up Melee and Brawl now?

 

[rokimomi]

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/

 

[Tero.]

I thought SDI was with C-stick and normal DI with the analog stick?

Or am I mixing up Melee and Brawl now?

You can only input ASDI with the C Stick.
SDI inputs are with the analog stick during hitlag, regular DI inputs are after hitlag

 

[Bones0]

You can only input ASDI with the C Stick.

I think this is what you meant and you just typed it weird:
The C-stick only controls ASDI.

Just clarifying so people know you can indeed ASDI with the control stick.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

wow i feel like the worst person ever roflll
ty bones, that makes sense now, clearly i didnt read that stuff right
but it makes my life so much easier now
the only question is do people always asdi when they smashdi, i mean if you are gonna combo di, wud you want to input in the cstick as well?

also you can input multiple di inputs after you sdi right? so how do you di powerful throws like peach fthrow?
or can you only input one regular di input
i had to learn sometime so thanks

 

[Tero.]

I think this is what you meant and you just typed it weird:
The C-stick only controls ASDI.

Just clarifying so people know you can indeed ASDI with the control stick.

Yes ofc. Sorry for phrasing it bad!

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Can anyone link me to Fox on Fox cg info?

 

[Popopidopop]

I can tell you what Leffen does, and he's the best at it. Up until around 40percent it's unescapable and after that if u DI nothing u can shine out just like u can on a marth who doesn't pivot. If they do any direction keep going until like 60 then utilt into bair edgeguard gg. So starting to uptilt at 40might be needed if the guy you are facing knows how to shine out and and is good at it. Hope that was helpful. U should defntly learn it for fd cp in dittos.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

I can tell you what Leffen does, and he's the best at it. Up until around 40percent it's unescapable and after that if u DI nothing u can shine out just like u can on a marth who doesn't pivot. If they do any direction keep going until like 60 then utilt into bair edgeguard gg. So starting to uptilt at 40might be needed if the guy you are facing knows how to shine out and and is good at it. Hope that was helpful. U should defntly learn it for fd cp in dittos.

Thank you that helped a lot! I was mostly wondering about the shine out percents, and if fox needed to pivot grab like Marth/utilt etc. So you pretty much covered all the points.

Also, does this work on Falco?

 

[Bones0]

wow i feel like the worst person ever roflll
ty bones, that makes sense now, clearly i didnt read that stuff right
but it makes my life so much easier now
the only question is do people always asdi when they smashdi, i mean if you are gonna combo di, wud you want to input in the cstick as well?

also you can input multiple di inputs after you sdi right? so how do you di powerful throws like peach fthrow?
or can you only input one regular di input
i had to learn sometime so thanks

The only way you're going to SDI without ASDI is to smash the control stick during hitlag and release it before the last frame of hitlag (which is when the input for ASDI is read). What usually happens is you SDI, ASDI, and trajectory DI all in the same direction because you smashed the stick during hitlag and kept it pressed in that same direction. If you roll the stick to a different direction during hitlag, you will get another SDI input. If you roll it exactly on the last frame of hitlag you will only affect your ASDI and trajectory DI.

You cannot do multiple DI or ASDI inputs. The only DI you can do multiple times is SDI.

Throws don't have hitlag (except for Jigglypuff's fthrow) so SDI and ASDI don't occur. The only thing you can influence from throws is your trajectory.

 

[BTmoney]

Thank you that helped a lot! I was mostly wondering about the shine out percents, and if fox needed to pivot grab like Marth/utilt etc. So you pretty much covered all the points.

Also, does this work on Falco?

IIRC Fox true-chaingrabs himself to 65 and Falco to 75. Someone correct me. But it's a pretty deadly CG (even if you don't max it out) since it combos in to usmash (which can combo into itself or other moves) and bair

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

IIRC Fox true-chaingrabs himself to 65 and Falco to 75. Someone correct me. But it's a pretty deadly CG (even if you don't max it out) since it combos in to usmash (which can combo into itself or other moves) and bair

Wow wtf 60-75% + positional advantage from 0. That's the most broken thing I've ever seen lmao. Time to abuse that shiz.

 

[omgwtfToph]

You should give me a shoutout for being right next time a Fox SHDLs when you are commentating.

you get negative shoutouts for consistently making terrible posts. sorry

 

[BTmoney]

u guys r so mean

 

[4 Aces]

Anyone know any details about the amsah tech? I seem to get it a lot and rather consistently too. I just don't really know exactly the physics and mechanics that go into it; all I do is hold down and away when I think I'm gonna get hit and then hit the Tech button of choice at some point of time afterwards.

I don't even really mean to do it either...I just do.

Also, can you amsah tech in any direction? I usually see it as a tech roll away. Can you tech roll towards or just tech in place?

Ummm, nvm. Idk why I thought that. I did my best to test it in Training Mode, and the hitlag seemed identical regardless of whether I hit an invincibile opponent or not. The only way I could think to test it was to slow the game to 1/4th speed and go to Mushroom Kingdom II. I used two Wavebird receivers on the same frequency to knee perfectly in sync, and I kneed a Birdo (which feels like kneeing a normal opponent) and a third CPU at the same time. I would have just used 4 CPUs but apparently there is team attack preventing human-controlled CPUs from hitting other CPUs. Not super scientific, but it certainly seemed like both Falcons were landing on the same frame.


What you learned today was to never trust Smash wikis. None of those are an actual description of parrying. The "shield counter" they talk about is referring to powershielding, and I'm pretty sure the 2-frame window is for projectiles, not physical attacks, and you can't attack out of shield release from a projectile PS. A parry is essentially using the invincibility frames that take place during the beginning of his shield animation to block an attack and then JCing before the invincibility ends. You can't JC once Yoshi's shield is fully up, which I believe is frame 8, but you are actually still invincible and incapable of JCing on frame 7. I could be wrong about some details, but that's at least close enough that you should get the idea.

Why is it that you can't attack out of shield release after powershielding a projectile, whereas you CAN attack/move out of shield release after powershielding a regular attack? Just curious.

 

[Bones0]

you get negative shoutouts for consistently making terrible posts. sorry

Anyone know any details about the amsah tech? I seem to get it a lot and rather consistently too. I just don't really know exactly the physics and mechanics that go into it; all I do is hold down and away when I think I'm gonna get hit and then hit the Tech button of choice at some point of time afterwards.

I don't even really mean to do it either...I just do.

Also, can you amsah tech in any direction? I usually see it as a tech roll away. Can you tech roll towards or just tech in place?


Why is it that you can't attack out of shield release after powershielding a projectile, whereas you CAN attack/move out of shield release after powershielding a regular attack? Just curious.

Magus made a video about it; read the description.

tl;dw - Hold perpendicular to the move's default trajectory, hold down on the C-stick to ASDI into the ground, and tech before you get hit. You can't input techs during hitlag, and there aren't any frames between hitlag and hitting the ground when you DI into it.

The purpose of the tech roll is to kill off your momentum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if momentum is entirely time-based or if tech rolling against your momentum will make it decay more by the time your roll finishes than if you roll with the momentum. Intuitively, I want to say it doesn't matter, but then I think about situations where you TIP and start walking or running towards your opponent while you still have momentum and there is definitely a noticeable drag. If I had to guess, I'd say tech rolling reduces how far your momentum will make you go by a single techroll distance, but it doesn't reduce the time you have momentum for.

As far as the actual tech rolls themselves, the only difference between Fox's forward and backward tech rolls is that you can visually notice Fox techrolling backwards ~3 frames sooner than if you techroll forwards (because Magus said so). That's irrelevant for survival ground techs though since you're going to end up at the ledge due to momentum anyway. I'm actually curious about whether you can FF onto the ledge to make sure you grab it if you still slide off after the tech roll. Most people just hold shield, and M2K does his cool little buffer spotdodge with Sheik.


@ shield release question
Because Sakurai is a troll? *shrug*

I think they just decided to treat PSing projectiles totally different. Maybe they originally planned on negating all shield stun for any PS, but they thought it might be too powerful vs. physical attacks. Even though it'd be hard, powershieldgrab would be hella lame. In fact, being hard would make it even worse because it'd be so inconsistent. Anyone know how PSing works in 64? I think looking back at 64's mechanics gives you a pretty good insight on how they saw things going into Melee's development. Side note: unless you know something I don't, you can't move out of shield release after PSing. All you can do are A-attacks.

 

[4 Aces]

Magus made a video about it; read the description.

tl;dw - Hold perpendicular to the move's default trajectory, hold down on the C-stick to ASDI into the ground, and tech before you get hit. You can't input techs during hitlag, and there aren't any frames between hitlag and hitting the ground when you DI into it.

The purpose of the tech roll is to kill off your momentum. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if momentum is entirely time-based or if tech rolling against your momentum will make it decay more by the time your roll finishes than if you roll with the momentum. Intuitively, I want to say it doesn't matter, but then I think about situations where you TIP and start walking or running towards your opponent while you still have momentum and there is definitely a noticeable drag. If I had to guess, I'd say tech rolling reduces how far your momentum will make you go by a single techroll distance, but it doesn't reduce the time you have momentum for.

As far as the actual tech rolls themselves, the only difference between Fox's forward and backward tech rolls is that you can visually notice Fox techrolling backwards ~3 frames sooner than if you techroll forwards (because Magus said so). That's irrelevant for survival ground techs though since you're going to end up at the ledge due to momentum anyway. I'm actually curious about whether you can FF onto the ledge to make sure you grab it if you still slide off after the tech roll. Most people just hold shield, and M2K does his cool little buffer spotdodge with Sheik.


@ shield release question
Because Sakurai is a troll? *shrug*

I think they just decided to treat PSing projectiles totally different. Maybe they originally planned on negating all shield stun for any PS, but they thought it might be too powerful vs. physical attacks. Even though it'd be hard, powershieldgrab would be hella lame. In fact, being hard would make it even worse because it'd be so inconsistent. Anyone know how PSing works in 64? I think looking back at 64's mechanics gives you a pretty good insight on how they saw things going into Melee's development. Side note: unless you know something I don't, you can't move out of shield release after PSing. All you can do are A-attacks.

Oh wow. I had forgotten about that video.
Do you have to ASDI with the C-Stick? Cuz the instances that I do pull it off, I'm just holding the control stick down and away. Guess what I'm really trying to ask is how important it is to get the input for ASDI downward.

As far as momentum goes, I too, am curious about all that goes into it. When you amsah tech in place, after getting hit hard with something like Marth's F-smash I think you just keep getting pushed away by the momentum right? The whole thing is still unusual to me -- All I know is that 1) I can do it intuitively 2) I'm just glad I didn't get sent flying to my death. lol

@shield release
Interesting...so I can't even use B moves out of power shield. Weird. #trollsakurai
Can you grab out of shield release? Well...nevermind. In that case, may as well just hold shield and press A for a standard shield grab.

 

[Bones0]

Oh wow. I had forgotten about that video.
Do you have to ASDI with the C-Stick? Cuz the instances that I do pull it off, I'm just holding the control stick down and away. Guess what I'm really trying to ask is how important it is to get the input for ASDI downward.

As far as momentum goes, I too, am curious about all that goes into it. When you amsah tech in place, after getting hit hard with something like Marth's F-smash I think you just keep getting pushed away by the momentum right? The whole thing is still unusual to me -- All I know is that 1) I can do it intuitively 2) I'm just glad I didn't get sent flying to my death. lol

@shield release
Interesting...so I can't even use B moves out of power shield. Weird. #trollsakurai
Can you grab out of shield release? Well...nevermind. In that case, may as well just hold shield and press A for a standard shield grab.

You don't have to do anything. lol ASDIing down is definitely better than ASDIing down and away though, but I'm sure you knew that. Idk how big of a difference it makes, but I have a feeling it could fairly often make the difference between you being close enough to the ground to tech once you're sent flying and not being close enough.

Fun momentum video.

I actually don't think you can grab out of shield release (whether you PS a physical attack or not). If you feel like testing it, go play a CPU Falcon since they love to Falcon Punch and Raptor Boost, pause after you shield to make sure you PSed the attack, then hold A or Z to see if you grab. I'm guessing the input will simply have no effect.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

this is just something ive been wondering, if you ever want to shine out at the lowest possible percent, what di do you use or is it no di, there are times where i shine out early as ****, but i feel it shud never happen cuz the person i was playing had trouble workin it at low percents

also what would happen if falcon saved his momentum after a magus tech, and copped a bunny hood

and does shine instantly stop all that japanese **** momentum

 

[4 Aces]

Question 1) For Drill --> grabs, I usually do it by drilling then L-cancelling then holding L and then pressing A. Sometimes when I do this the shield pops up for a very brief second. More or less shield grabbing.

Was wondering if it is more optimal to simply just hit Z (after L-canceling with L) and avoid the shield popping up. Sometimes I feel like because of the shield, it's slowing my grabs down and I'm missing drill grabs when I shouldn't be.

Also, what's the relevant counters to drill --> grabs that an opponent can punish me with? Are there times when shining would avoid said punishes? So shining comes out frame 1, whereas grab comes out frame 7. How much relevance is there between the two? Is there a punish that punishes drill --> grab but not drill --> shine?

Question 2) Against gay Sheiks that only want to sit by the edge and needle camp me and only want me to approach, so they can grab backthrow --> gimp. What do I do? Can I out-camp her with my lasers? And if they're also adept at that Shino Stall/M2K ledge planking ****...wat do? Just be patient and find a way to short hop --> grab the ledge before they can get it?

Question 3) Why do you want to DI downward Peach's initial down Smash? And I'm guessing only at low percent? Because I know I have a bad habit of holding down when I get hit with Down Smash (like a scrub), and super dying. It gets pretty bad.
#scrublife

this is just something ive been wondering, if you ever want to shine out at the lowest possible percent, what di do you use or is it no di, there are times where i shine out early as ****, but i feel it shud never happen cuz the person i was playing had trouble workin it at low percents

also what would happen if falcon saved his momentum after a magus tech, and copped a bunny hood

and does shine instantly stop all that japanese **** momentum

It does stop your horizontal momentum, if for example, you're running and then jump forward/backwards.

If you're talking about shining after you get hit to stop horizontal momentum, then no. It doesn't do jack. It was a myth a long time ago though. Like, '07 or so. lol I actually used to do it all the time after getting hit to try to stop momentum.

 

[Bones0]

this is just something ive been wondering, if you ever want to shine out at the lowest possible percent, what di do you use or is it no di, there are times where i shine out early as ****, but i feel it shud never happen cuz the person i was playing had trouble workin it at low percents

also what would happen if falcon saved his momentum after a magus tech, and copped a bunny hood

and does shine instantly stop all that japanese **** momentum

Read (then bow down to Magus).

Question 1) For Drill --> grabs, I usually do it by drilling then L-cancelling then holding L and then pressing A. Sometimes when I do this the shield pops up for a very brief second. More or less shield grabbing.

Was wondering if it is more optimal to simply just hit Z (after L-canceling with L) and avoid the shield popping up. Sometimes I feel like because of the shield, it's slowing my grabs down and I'm missing drill grabs when I shouldn't be.

Also, what's the relevant counters to drill --> grabs that an opponent can punish me with? Are there times when shining would avoid said punishes? So shining comes out frame 1, whereas grab comes out frame 7. How much relevance is there between the two? Is there a punish that punishes drill --> grab but not drill --> shine?

Question 2) Against gay Sheiks that only want to sit by the edge and needle camp me and only want me to approach, so they can grab backthrow --> gimp. What do I do? Can I out-camp her with my lasers? And if they're also adept at that Shino Stall/M2K ledge planking ****...wat do? Just be patient and find a way to short hop --> grab the ledge before they can get it?

Question 3) Why do you want to DI downward Peach's initial down Smash? And I'm guessing only at low percent? Because I know I have a bad habit of holding down when I get hit with Down Smash (like a scrub), and super dying. It gets pretty bad.
#scrublife


It does stop your horizontal momentum, if for example, you're running and then jump forward/backwards.

If you're talking about shining after you get hit to stop horizontal momentum, then no. It doesn't do jack. It was a myth a long time ago though. Like, '07 or so. lol I actually used to do it all the time after getting hit to try to stop momentum.

1. You can shield grab with L+A just as fast as Z. To test, simply pause, hold L+A, then unpause and you should see your character grab without any shield. If you do the drill like you described and see your shield pop up, it means you were less than frame perfect with the grab input. However, this would also be the case if you let go of L and pressed A. You just wouldn't have a flashing shield to indicate you dropped a few frames. I'd say the worst part about committing to holding shield for drill grabs is you may realize the opponent shielded and want to shine instead, but if you get into the habit of holding the trigger, you won't have that option. I would just press Z since there is no timing benefit to shielding, but I guess it's also possible that holding the trigger could potentially protect you from the opponent SDIing away and jabbing if he happens to hit your shield for the 1-2 frames before you start your grab.

tl;dr - The difference is negligible.

As far as what the opponent can do vs. drill-grab that they can't do vs. drill-shine, it depends on the character, how you hit the dair, how imperfect your timing is, etc.

2. I just wait. Even when I played M2K with Falco (which is worse since Falco's FH is less equipped to steal ledges over shino stalls and he's just generally slower), I just stayed close to the ledge, shielded intelligently (don't get ledgedash grabbed), and he will have to make a move eventually. If they are really stubborn and never leave the ledge, then idk the best way to steal honestly. Most people just seem to find an opening, DD in, and WD FF onto the ledge.

3. I didn't see anyone suggest DIing down vs. Peach's dsmash... lol You can try to hold down and tech roll out, but you'd have to be super pro or something. I just SDI up asap (but I get wrecked by Peach dsmash all the time, so what do I know).

Shine doesn't stop your momentum even if you jump into. Doing grounded shines is the only way I know of that using shine can actually stop your momentum sooner.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

Read (then bow down to Magus).

thats crazy lol
can you explain what happened to me on stadium, i got hit vertically at a percent (with di i cud have survived)
but it seemed like i use my double jump and i just got swept into the blast zone
kinda like at high percents diing off the shyguys straight into a blast zone

also why dont people crouch cancel a strong hit and grounded shine before they go off stage, sometimes when im doing a double shine or waveshine and im hit in between i cc the hit and shine to stop my momentum, wudnt that be the best way to survive?

 

[Bones0]

thats crazy lol
can you explain what happened to me on stadium, i got hit vertically at a percent (with di i cud have survived)
but it seemed like i use my double jump and i just got swept into the blast zone
kinda like at high percents diing off the shyguys straight into a blast zone

also why dont people crouch cancel a strong hit and grounded shine before they go off stage, sometimes when im doing a double shine or waveshine and im hit in between i cc the hit and shine to stop my momentum, wudnt that be the best way to survive?

It sounds like you got shined after you were knocked down which sends you into that floaty state. I have heard that you can indeed jump during that and go flying off the top. Can't say for sure based on your description.

You can't grounded shine if you were hit by a strong move because strong moves send you into the air, and we just established that shines don't stop your horizontal momentum anyway...

 

[4 Aces]

Read (then bow down to Magus).

1. You can shield grab with L+A just as fast as Z. To test, simply pause, hold L+A, then unpause and you should see your character grab without any shield. If you do the drill like you described and see your shield pop up, it means you were less than frame perfect with the grab input. However, this would also be the case if you let go of L and pressed A. You just wouldn't have a flashing shield to indicate you dropped a few frames. I'd say the worst part about committing to holding shield for drill grabs is you may realize the opponent shielded and want to shine instead, but if you get into the habit of holding the trigger, you won't have that option. I would just press Z since there is no timing benefit to shielding, but I guess it's also possible that holding the trigger could potentially protect you from the opponent SDIing away and jabbing if he happens to hit your shield for the 1-2 frames before you start your grab.

tl;dr - The difference is negligible.

As far as what the opponent can do vs. drill-grab that they can't do vs. drill-shine, it depends on the character, how you hit the dair, how imperfect your timing is, etc.

2. I just wait. Even when I played M2K with Falco (which is worse since Falco's FH is less equipped to steal ledges over shino stalls and he's just generally slower), I just stayed close to the ledge, shielded intelligently (don't get ledgedash grabbed), and he will have to make a move eventually. If they are really stubborn and never leave the ledge, then idk the best way to steal honestly. Most people just seem to find an opening, DD in, and WD FF onto the ledge.

3. I didn't see anyone suggest DIing down vs. Peach's dsmash... lol You can try to hold down and tech roll out, but you'd have to be super pro or something. I just SDI up asap (but I get wrecked by Peach dsmash all the time, so what do I know).

Shine doesn't stop your momentum even if you jump into. Doing grounded shines is the only way I know of that using shine can actually stop your momentum sooner.

1) Duly noted

2) KK. When wavedashing to grab ledges, is it always better to fast fall? I've never actually paid attention/realized I ought to do it.

3) Meh...I swear I saw it a few pages back when I was browsing.

Edit: K, found the posts

you can cc -> shield/shine vs her d-smash at low percents, but it's not worth the risk

Always CC the first hit of the dsmash when she uses it to edgeguard, this is obvious but many people don't do it.

^^^^

It seems I was mistaken; they said cc Peach's downsmash. I read cc as equivalent of DI'ing downward (since I don't really know the percent as to when CC'ing stops against Peach -- I just figured it'd sweep me off the ground). Even then...it definitely looks unsafe...(which unknown acknowledges)

I don't understand juka's post though. How would you CC the first hit of downsmash if you're being edgeguarded? You'd be in the air when coming back more often than not, no?

Doesn't grounded shines still carry you a good distance forward? There was one that you run into shine, which carries you forward a bit. And then there was one where you run and shine close to the edge and it slides you waaay outward offstage (kinda weird stuff lol).

Or are you talking dash --> jump cancel shines?

 

[ArcNatural]

Ok I can think of a few reasons for the confusion with Peach's downsmash.

1. If you're quick you can Shield DI Peach's downsmash down and toward Peach and make wavedash OOS to shine combo much easier. Only recommended with bloody close to full shield. I would much rather do this than what Unknown is saying, which I'm guessing is you just take a bunch of damage for the possibility of waveshining her. Maybe at 0% you don't get knockdown or you can do a standing tech.

2. Ijuka is talking about when you say firefox/illusion over Peach so if this is the stage:

__________O__ X (O being Peach, X being fox) then you firefox/illusion over.

You end up like this:

__________XO__

If Peach downsmashes you and you don't hold anything, you'll take one hit of the downsmash and be sent off the stage again, to the right. However, a solid trick is if you tap down right when she downsmashes you, you'll take two hits of the downsmash, but the second hit will send you to the left, not the right. Making it much easier to recover. This situation comes up way more in Falcon vs Peach imo, but you should understand it now.

And you should always fastfall when grabbing edges. It's not nearly as important with fox/falco as they are so small and fast, but other characters like Marth/Falcon/Sheik it can make edgeguard timings for invincibility better.

 

[4 Aces]

Ok I can think of a few reasons for the confusion with Peach's downsmash.

1. If you're quick you can Shield DI Peach's downsmash down and toward Peach and make wavedash OOS to shine combo much easier. Only recommended with bloody close to full shield. I would much rather do this than what Unknown is saying, which I'm guessing is you just take a bunch of damage for the possibility of waveshining her. Maybe at 0% you don't get knockdown or you can do a standing tech.

2. Ijuka is talking about when you say firefox/illusion over Peach so if this is the stage:

__________O__ X (O being Peach, X being fox) then you firefox/illusion over.

You end up like this:

__________XO__

If Peach downsmashes you and you don't hold anything, you'll take one hit of the downsmash and be sent off the stage again, to the right. However, a solid trick is if you tap down right when she downsmashes you, you'll take two hits of the downsmash, but the second hit will send you to the left, not the right. Making it much easier to recover. This situation comes up way more in Falcon vs Peach imo, but you should understand it now.

And you should always fastfall when grabbing edges. It's not nearly as important with fox/falco as they are so small and fast, but other characters like Marth/Falcon/Sheik it can make edgeguard timings for invincibility better.

Ah, I see. This clears things up a bit. Does it matter which direction Peach is facing?

 

[ShroudedOne]

No, it does not.

 

[Bones0]

No, it does not.

Finally, a question ShroudedOne can answer.

2) KK. When wavedashing to grab ledges, is it always better to fast fall? I've never actually paid attention/realized I ought to do it.

For Falco (I'm sure Fox is similar, if not identical), FFing onto the ledge is 6 frames faster than simply WDing on regularly. I'm actually still getting used to it with spacies myself (I do it with Marth all the time), but it's definitely worth applying. It can help a lot vs. Sheik in particular. When she does that straight up recovery where you ledgestand and want to get back on the ledge, FFing to the ledge will make you much more able to grab it before her. I'm sure you could also see how grabbing the ledge 6 frames sooner is crucial to beating shino stalls. Just tap down right before you slide off from your WD and release the stick to neutral asap so you don't FF past the ledge.

 

[Engo]

Fox boards lately.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm here for the simple things, Bones.

You mentioned the floaty state that one enters after being hit by Falco shine while knocked down, and when I was practicing today, it seemed like the reason that happened was more because the opponent was knocked down, and not due to shine being stale (which seems to be "myth" about why that happens). Which I found interesting.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'm here for the simple things, Bones.

You mentioned the floaty state that one enters after being hit by Falco shine while knocked down, and when I was practicing today, it seemed like the reason that happened was more because the opponent was knocked down, and not due to shine being stale (which seems to be "myth" about why that happens). Which I found interesting.

I didn't think this was a myth. I thought it's been tested. Someone correct if wrong, but I think after you've shined 2-3 times if you don't un-stale the move if you shine them when they are knocked down they will always be in the float animation. Which is why this always tends to happen if you get some sick combo to kill, then immediately go to town on their next stock.

 

[Dark Hart]

I though it was mix of stale and percent? People always tend to go floaty from my experience after 3-4 shines at about 40%

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

how do you tech foxs shine, do you asdi it into the ground? and how do you predict a shine anyways, other than stopping a thunders and i see people tech it near the ledge preventing them from being off stage
right now im working on looking to make sure i do all the stuff i need to survive and learn to stop opponents combos and save myself lol
defensisve play is so hard

 

[BTmoney]

how do you tech foxs shine, do you asdi it into the ground? and how do you predict a shine anyways, other than stopping a thunders and i see people tech it near the ledge preventing them from being off stage
right now im working on looking to make sure i do all the stuff i need to survive and learn to stop opponents combos and save myself lol
defensisve play is so hard

As far as I know it's sort of an option select thing, but I'd like to know the answer to this too

 

[Bones0]

I'm here for the simple things, Bones.

You mentioned the floaty state that one enters after being hit by Falco shine while knocked down, and when I was practicing today, it seemed like the reason that happened was more because the opponent was knocked down, and not due to shine being stale (which seems to be "myth" about why that happens). Which I found interesting.

The shine has to be staled at least once iirc. So like, if Falco respawns with a fresh stock (nothing staled), dairs a Fox at tumble percent, and shines him from a missed tech, he won't go into the floaty state. Idk if that's right for sure, but either way shine staling is relevant to floaty states. That's easily seen by just waveshine a Fox on FD without using any other attacks. I think after 4-5 he just goes into the floaty state. Staling can be hard to be exact with because each stale slot has a different multiplier so shine-dair-shine is less likely to send them floating than a shine-shine.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I see. So it must be the "7% rule" or something that I see Kirbykaze post about often. I'm assuming it's something like "moves that deal 7% or less send opponents into the floaty state when they're hit while lying on the ground." I see it happen with spacie dash attacks also, for example.

That's only a guess though; I would need someone to confirm.

 

[Bones0]

I see. So it must be the "7% rule" or something that I see Kirbykaze post about often. I'm assuming it's something like "moves that deal 7% or less send opponents into the floaty state when they're hit while lying on the ground." I see it happen with spacie dash attacks also, for example.

That's only a guess though; I would need someone to confirm.

I think it is KB based. You have moves so weak that the person gets reset, moves so strong they send the opponent into tumble, and then a handful of medium strength attacks where they get sent into the floaty state. Not sure though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The 7% rule:

During a knockdown, if you hit the OTGed foe with an attack that will lift someone off the ground and put them into an airborne state (we'll use Sheik's f-tilt for reference since it starts at 7%) then one of two things will happen.

If the attack does 7% or more (Sheik's fresh f-tilt for instance) then the opponent gets lifted up and put into the stunned state wherein they are incapacitated until the aforementioned stun elapses.

Conversely, if the attack does 6% or less (Sheik's staled f-tilted), then something different happens. The OTGed foe will still be launched at the same trajectory but will not have any stun inflicted upon them. They will be free to action. This often results in seemingly awkward hit trajectories because they have some measure of air control immediately.

This is why SDI up and ASDI up are used to escape jab resets by fast fallers. Their gravity modifier prevents them from being lifted off the ground by jabs, forcing the wake up behaviours. But SDIing up increases the KB enough to lift the character off the ground, resulting in a 0 stun state where you can do... stuff... to get away from the scary Sheik, Falcon, Fox, Mario, etc. Which is a neat little tidbit.

As or against Falco you probably have seen Falco's shine launch an opponent that missed the tech on your dair with no stun, usually late into a dair-shine chain. That's probably the 7% rule at work. It's also common with Fox's dash attack, Sheik's f-tilt, and some of the low tiers' when you get grounded from u-tilt and they keep doing it.