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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
Vs falco. You're doing pretty good !
-Watch your spacing on replays : you want to pressure falco with your positioning, not retreating as far as you do and threaten him with DD to not let him laser too much.
-Work on your nair-shine approach, a lot of your approaches are a bit sketchy.
-Your use of drill is good, but you could take it further by doing drill-shine > techchase (grab, usmash, nair at high%), or drill-grab.
-You're good at catching his jumps, keep doing it, it's a huge thing vs spacies !
-On the other hand, don't jump as often/easily yourself, you could get punished so hard for these. Full-hop approaches (nair, drill, bair...) are fine, just don't spam them, and please, don't DJ and fall back down on him ! Apply this simple rule : if you ever DJ in neutral, it's to retreat to platforms.
-Also when you're pressured you jump OoS way too much. Roll away will get you out of trouble almost every time. Don't roll in, it's super easy to punish. Training Shine OoS would be a good idea, and against unsafe stuff, don't be afraid to shield-grab, or even usmash OoS to make a statement.
-Your WD OoS are good, keep going and they'll get super quick to punish more stuff and handle lasers better.
-Your techs and DI are okay, but some flubs got you killed by fsmash quite a few times. Beware the "No DI" on strong moves like falco fsmash, marth tipper etc. I'm sure your defense/survival will get better as you play.

Stuff you could do vs falco :
-More grabs. It's not easy to grab a falco, but you can destroy him with uthrow-usmash > more usmash/uair/regrab > till you can bair him offstage, and practice the chaingrab : it's easy, stupid broken.
-bair walls. Espescially when he's cornered, spam bairs on falco. Your better frame data gives you the edge in shuffl battles, So if he tries to jump out of your bair pressure you'll catch him and knock him offstage easily.
-shinespike him !
 

7dogguy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
61
Location
WV
3DS FC
2466-2487-7066
Vs falco. You're doing pretty good !
-Watch your spacing on replays : you want to pressure falco with your positioning, not retreating as far as you do and threaten him with DD to not let him laser too much.
-Work on your nair-shine approach, a lot of your approaches are a bit sketchy.
-Your use of drill is good, but you could take it further by doing drill-shine > techchase (grab, usmash, nair at high%), or drill-grab.
-You're good at catching his jumps, keep doing it, it's a huge thing vs spacies !
-On the other hand, don't jump as often/easily yourself, you could get punished so hard for these. Full-hop approaches (nair, drill, bair...) are fine, just don't spam them, and please, don't DJ and fall back down on him ! Apply this simple rule : if you ever DJ in neutral, it's to retreat to platforms.
-Also when you're pressured you jump OoS way too much. Roll away will get you out of trouble almost every time. Don't roll in, it's super easy to punish. Training Shine OoS would be a good idea, and against unsafe stuff, don't be afraid to shield-grab, or even usmash OoS to make a statement.
-Your WD OoS are good, keep going and they'll get super quick to punish more stuff and handle lasers better.
-Your techs and DI are okay, but some flubs got you killed by fsmash quite a few times. Beware the "No DI" on strong moves like falco fsmash, marth tipper etc. I'm sure your defense/survival will get better as you play.

Stuff you could do vs falco :
-More grabs. It's not easy to grab a falco, but you can destroy him with uthrow-usmash > more usmash/uair/regrab > till you can bair him offstage, and practice the chaingrab : it's easy, stupid broken.
-bair walls. Espescially when he's cornered, spam bairs on falco. Your better frame data gives you the edge in shuffl battles, So if he tries to jump out of your bair pressure you'll catch him and knock him offstage easily.
-shinespike him !
this helps a lot thanks i have one more personal question i get really scared to SS Falco because of his side B clipping me a lot when should i go for it?
 

Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
this helps a lot thanks i have one more personal question i get really scared to SS Falco because of his side B clipping me a lot when should i go for it?
Cover his side b recovery with bairs. Spacies will side b at a few different heights : platform, ground level (even though it's terrible) and ledge. Grab ledge and ledgehop-bair. Time it well and you'll get that invincible bair, which means no worries about getting dunked by phantasm.
Whenever he has to do a recovery below the ledge, he'll have no option but to up b : and that's when you should be ready to drop for your free SS. Often, you'll sense falco will up b even though he's above the ledge (after you've punished his side b a few times), but to go out and SS him, it IS a solid read, which is not what you should aim for in general. So yeah go SS everytime you know he'll have to up b below the ledge, like when you caught his DJ.
One classic fox gimp would be : knock falco offstage at low% > catch his panic DJ-side b with bair/nair > drop to SS him since without his DJ he's pretty much defenseless.
 

Berble

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
131
Location
Marin, CA
Does anyone know the specifics of how to slight di'ing Sheik's dthrow to make it ambiguous where you'll land? I've only ever seen Ice do it consistently, and it looks amazing
 

flerbmcgurb

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
9

I'm tired of seeing so many threads asking questions that have been answered over and over again, and are obvious to the average smasher. I figure this will stop at least some of those from popping up.




Post asking anything you want about Fox that you're not sure about or just don't know. I will answer your question within the day, and if anyone else wants to answer before I can, go for it, and false information given will be corrected.


Also it wouldn't hurt to check this thread, or others before asking but, it really won't matter much.

Ask away.
Ive been working on my fox alot and im having problems with multi shines i can do almost every other tech there is at this point but in can only do two shines in a row, any help?
 

TheFlipside

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Messages
9
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
So I've been trying to figure out how to moving around the stage SHFFL Nairing while moving forward and backward and I can't figure it out. Anyone have any tips? I can to SHFFL Dair across the stage just fine. I just can't figure how to time it so that I'm moving and doing a Nair instead of putting out a fair or bair because I'm moving the analog stick in one of those directions.
 
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theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
1st: Falco - I think you should use dair more sparingly because would counter hit you off your dairs really often. I think spaced away from shine OoS nair and bairs are your best friends. I would like to see running shine mixed into your approaches more. Falco likes to shine OoS, bair, roll most often out of shield so I like to hit the shield with a nair or bair and just dash away to wait and react to hit him when he wiffs. If he rolls he gets hit if comes to me and if he rolls away you can just get on his ass and be close enough so he doesn't laser. Speaking of lasers, he put you in shield really often which ended up netting him a bunch of shield stabs so use your shield more sparingly by going to platforms. When falco full hops or is on a platform just stay out of range of dair under 40 percent and cc his bair outside that range. If you are over 40 you just have to respect dair and bair because both just have too much priority and punish potential

Samus: I think the samus was bad and let you get away with way too much. Nair is really weird in this match up and it is not that good unless you nair her when she tries to missile or when she is scared to cc a full hop bair. I think making samus wiff and running shine or wd OoS to push are your main hard approaches. I also like full hopping over and doing a super late pair to immediate shield because she wants to dsmash. I think nair can be good to bait out up b out of shield. So you do a nair to immediate partial light shield and samus instictively upb's so you can then punish that end lag. I like to play nuetral by floating right outside of wd forward ftilt, so that she gets nervous and throws out an unsafe hitbox
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
So I've been trying to figure out how to moving around the stage SHFFL Nairing while moving forward and backward and I can't figure it out. Anyone have any tips? I can to SHFFL Dair across the stage just fine. I just can't figure how to time it so that I'm moving and doing a Nair instead of putting out a fair or bair because I'm moving the analog stick in one of those directions.
It is mostly a finesse thing. you have to jump and make press a when the control stick is in the neutral position. Then you you immediately move the control stick in the direction you want to drift. Do it without the fastfall first then add it once you can get the drift you want.

How should I deal with an extremely offensive Ness on Battlefield? Only matchup I struggle with.
Honestly there probably isn't much more to this match up than face away and uptilt and bair his approaches. If you want to approach you can nair Ness when he goes airborne and your nair should beat him if he is facing forward especially. I would challenge Ness's bair with my own bair most of the time though.

this helps a lot thanks i have one more personal question i get really scared to SS Falco because of his side B clipping me a lot when should i go for it?
There are couple great times to shine spike Falco but I wouldn't try it all the time because if he side b's you can accidentally put yourself in a bad position because even if it doesn't hit you, falco now has center stage and you are off stage or on the ledge.

Back throw at low percents near the ledge so the back throw throws him off stage is a di mix- up. If he di's in he is dead because you can just run off immediate shine for a kill. It can be a nice tool to use if you notice him Di'ing the same

B throw at other percents are kind of odd. If you notice before that he likes to double jump backwards then side b to the ledge you can just follow him out for a shine. He can side b earlier though so it is definitely a read. I like going for this when I am at high percent and about to die anyway.

Other than that I sometimes face off stage as Falco is coming down to set up his recovery and I like to just watch him. If he up bs I simply go out and shine. If he side b's for the ledge or on the stage I like to down angled ftilt to catch him and then do a simple shine spike. If I notice him side b at platform height you need to immediate dash away full hop bair to cover the platform or you need to grab ledge because everyone and their mother can shorten.
 
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Arytek

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 11, 2016
Messages
1
I can't find anything on it, and haven't seen top players utilize it (at least from what I've noticed). As fox, I found out that if you fast fall as soon as you possibly can on a full jump and do a nair immediately afterward, you'll be able to get out a quick, short lasting hitbox right around where the center of a shield is (in height).

Does this have any realistic use, such as against certain mu's? It's the fastest landing option out of a full jump from what I know. It also doesn't hit high on shields, and crouch canceling it seems much more difficult than typical falling nairs, and definitely more difficult to react to. Any info about it?
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
I can't find anything on it, and haven't seen top players utilize it (at least from what I've noticed). As fox, I found out that if you fast fall as soon as you possibly can on a full jump and do a nair immediately afterward, you'll be able to get out a quick, short lasting hitbox right around where the center of a shield is (in height).

Does this have any realistic use, such as against certain mu's? It's the fastest landing option out of a full jump from what I know. It also doesn't hit high on shields, and crouch canceling it seems much more difficult than typical falling nairs, and definitely more difficult to react to. Any info about it?
Well late aerials are super well known and top players will use them very often but they will also mix up their aerial placement. Really late aerials on shield are considered safe on shield so in general you do not want to hit high on the shield because you can be grabbed. Also late aerials to immediate shield can be difficult to punish with a cc counter hit. Also you can hit the shield lower than about mid way down the shield. You can place your aerial right at the bottom of their shield if you have good timing
 
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bearsfan092

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 1, 2012
Messages
402
Anyone know at what percents it's viable to upthrow upair platform tech chase against Falcon (upthrow to falling upair on platform to cover miss tech or tech in place)? I seem to be able to do it on some of the mid percents, but there's a certain point earlier where it feels like the throw animation is taking too long for me to really follow up relative to when I'm putting him on the platform.
 

Gr33ns

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
10
Location
Seattle, WA
Anyone know at what percents it's viable to upthrow upair platform tech chase against Falcon (upthrow to falling upair on platform to cover miss tech or tech in place)? I seem to be able to do it on some of the mid percents, but there's a certain point earlier where it feels like the throw animation is taking too long for me to really follow up relative to when I'm putting him on the platform.
0%. Stop using falling up air and do instant up air instead...
 

KingNinja

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Messages
22
Location
Thomasville, NC
What are the main things you need to practice and how do I practice them during solo practice. Please help I'm looking for any help. P.S. I have 20xx
 

Comet7

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
1,027
Location
Somewhere over the rainbow
NNID
Comet7
What are the main things you need to practice and how do I practice them during solo practice. Please help I'm looking for any help. P.S. I have 20xx
shield pressure: multishines, shine grabs, late aerials, spacing out of shield grab range, etc. invincible ledge dashes. shine out of shield. chaingrabs. throw followups on marth and sheik at low %. l cancel against ice climbers. shortens. lasering around the stage. canceling run with crouch. waveshines. pc drop and moonwalk if you want, not that useful. shine spiking spacies out of up b. firefox stall. shai drops and other platform movement.

edit: teching at the edge. set a motion bomb at the edge and firefox into it and see if you can tech it.

and the most important tech: invisible shine.
 
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theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Anyone know at what percents it's viable to upthrow upair platform tech chase against Falcon (upthrow to falling upair on platform to cover miss tech or tech in place)? I seem to be able to do it on some of the mid percents, but there's a certain point earlier where it feels like the throw animation is taking too long for me to really follow up relative to when I'm putting him on the platform.
Not sure exactly percent ranges but the earlier percents you just need to get the timing to hit a rising up air on his tech option. Not too difficult because all you have to do is repeat the practice enough til you can do it consistently. I think it is the easiest of the uthrow tech chases. At mid percent things get tricky because people are very good at di'ing and teching in various ways. Basically falling upair is going to be best because then you can catch their dj, and upair hits tech in place/missed tech. If they tech away you wavedash shine and if the tech in you can uptilt.
 

airstrikee

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
Messages
3
Just two questions about fox's drill.
1. Is it better to not fast fall the drill to get more hits?
2. Is it better to use the A button instead of the c-stick when drilling? I ask this question because I read somewhere that mango and lucky use the A button instead of the c-stick

Thanks
 

AscendantAquila

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
64
1. You generally want to fastfall the drill most times you use, although you can use a non-fastfell drill to poke shields that have been worn down a bit.

2. You can use c-stick if you are quick enough with your fingers because regardless of using x or y, hitting the c-stick down is relatively easy if you can do other things like SHDL since you can just flick down from the jump button straight to down on the c-stick. Plus it is also easier to drift during the drill if you don't use down+a although there are probably people out there who can do it just fine.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Just two questions about fox's drill.
1. Is it better to not fast fall the drill to get more hits?
2. Is it better to use the A button instead of the c-stick when drilling? I ask this question because I read somewhere that mango and lucky use the A button instead of the c-stick
1. Yes you almost always want to ff your drill but you want to mix-up when you do your fast fall to mess up their OoS option because dair is technically never safe on shield even if it can be quite difficult to punish
2. Rising drill is easier with the A button imo. I do all my aerials with A except specific drifts and situations, but it doesn't really matter much.



my friend is a fox main and I main ic's. A lot of matches we play he will go to one side of the stage and standing lazer, and I think it's an awful idea. More times than not it turns into a grab for me, and I keep telling him that. I've told him that SHL and SHDL are much better options, but he doesn't care and tells me he can't SHDL. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this is a terrible option more times than not, that's why I'm here lol. I was hoping someone could enlighten either my friend or myself. Thanks guys, hope this isn't a terrible question.
Yeah that is frankly a terrible idea. SHL/SHDL or don't laser. At his level he probably shouldn't worry about lasering at all
 
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L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
Can anyone critique/give me advice about this match? (Time is embedded in the video player/link) Much appreciated!
 
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theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
Can anyone critique/give me advice about this match? (Time is embedded in the video player/link) Much appreciated!
So I think offesnsively you were doing the right things, for you had good mixups and reads.

Most of the problems came from an unrefined punish game. I never saw you pick up a big punish off of a grab. Go back and practice the chaingrab and upair platform tech chase.

Next I think your OoS game is a pretty big hole in your tech skill. You don't seem to be very comfortable with Wd OoS or Shine OoS to escape pressure. Especially laser pressure. You would be in your shield way to long.

Match up wise I felt like you were not really playing the percents. You seemed to be ignoring cc and it got you in trouble pretty often. I think a nice addition in your fox falco play would be to add running shine. Then he has to be worried and possibly shield anytime you just run at him, and he certaintly does not want to cc running shine.
 

L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
So I think offesnsively you were doing the right things, for you had good mixups and reads.

Most of the problems came from an unrefined punish game. I never saw you pick up a big punish off of a grab. Go back and practice the chaingrab and upair platform tech chase.

Next I think your OoS game is a pretty big hole in your tech skill. You don't seem to be very comfortable with Wd OoS or Shine OoS to escape pressure. Especially laser pressure. You would be in your shield way to long.

Match up wise I felt like you were not really playing the percents. You seemed to be ignoring cc and it got you in trouble pretty often. I think a nice addition in your fox falco play would be to add running shine. Then he has to be worried and possibly shield anytime you just run at him, and he certaintly does not want to cc running shine.
Thanks for the tips! You were pretty spot on about the things that I want to practice but struggle to lol.

Yeah until recently I used control stick to jump cancel grab so I always felt like my grab game was really weak. I also feel like higher level players will usually be moving around and not staying in shield for too long, so I have to set up for my grabs with drill->grab mixups, getting behind my opponents who don't have good OoS, or conditioning my opponents to shield and stay in position a lot. My alternative to grabbing as part of my punish game was to go for a lot of knockdowns and reads so my punish game definitely needs a lot of work.

I'm also very "shaky" with my OoS game. I can shine OoS decently against 20XX CPUs with shield pressure, but against people I usually mess up the shine OoS and so I mix up rolls and my roll timings to not risk getting comboed off missed shine OoS. I hold my shield because most Falcos won't do the whole late aerial->shine->fade back aerial string. Especially in my area, most Falcos will just do a mid-height aerial->shine->waveshine (which should be punishable I think) or they'll mix up and guess/bait with f-smash after their aerial. I think shine OoS is definitely something I should practice if I want to play at a higher level.

I thought Falco would get sent into tumble by dash attack at 40% even with CC :( Now I know lol

I've actually been thinking about running shine lately, but I'm trying to implement it more in my play.
 
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Parks

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Messages
37
i was wondering if you should shffl dair and bair most of the time or not shffl them most of the time
 

dlai226

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
12
Location
MDVA
Fox vs. Falco match up

What counters double laser from the edge? I feel like I always try to time a move in between or just shield the lasers but I seem to get rekt either way.
 

~Twitch~

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
Messages
4,106
Location
cullowhee, nc western carolina university
Yeah. In general against samus you need to be really comfortable dealing with crouch cancelling because cc D smash is a killer. Don't go for uthrow uair try throwing directionally forward or backwards...offensively speaking it's good to abuse dash dance and staying close to them because your movement is better than theirs.

Against Icies you should just be really careful. They're gonna try to wobble you lol. Once you have that in mind, it's helpful to go for anything that will disrupt an Icies player sync with their nana like a running shine. Dairs and fh bairs are your friend in both matchups. Hope this helps!
 

Comet7

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 2, 2013
Messages
1,027
Location
Somewhere over the rainbow
NNID
Comet7
How can I dash -> immediate up smash? Is it crouch in dash then up smash or do I jump cancel the dash -> upsmash?
jump cancel is the fastest and can be done out of dash. crouch can't be done from dash.
Fox vs. Falco match up

What counters double laser from the edge? I feel like I always try to time a move in between or just shield the lasers but I seem to get rekt either way.
jump and bair / nair as he's coming up. you could powershield too, but that's harder.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
i was wondering if you should shffl dair and bair most of the time or not shffl them most of the time
This is a complicated question because the answer is usually. Not fast falling can give you more time in the air to drift horizontally, so there are complicated spacing tricks you can do with that to zone or bait a punishable OoS option from your opponent. Most of the time you want to ff your aerials though.

What counters double laser from the edge?
Another trick is to just shield next the ledge and hit him if he lasers.
 

9-BiT

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2011
Messages
32
Location
portland
Hi I have two matches starting at 1:11:40, I was wondering if I could get a critique. The good and the bad. I haven't ever seen myself play before so I don't really know what my strengths and weaknesses are.

From watching it myself I know that my up smash punishes need work, I had a couple hard reads that I messed up because I accidentally dash attacked.

Thanks!
 

RyseEX

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 1, 2015
Messages
29
When your against spacies and you are in a position to do multiple up airs is it better to do up airs while ascending or descending. Because descending ones allow you to jump again quicker. While rising ones are quicker
 

{Lemons}

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 28, 2015
Messages
22
Hi I have two matches starting at 1:11:40, I was wondering if I could get a critique. The good and the bad. I haven't ever seen myself play before so I don't really know what my strengths and weaknesses are.

From watching it myself I know that my up smash punishes need work, I had a couple hard reads that I messed up because I accidentally dash attacked.

Thanks!
You should try to be more aware of what your opponent is doing. There were quite a few times where you just kinda let the sheik hit you instead of shielding or dashing out of the way and punishing. Aggression is one thing, blind aggression is another.
 

theMagnumDragon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
36
Location
Bethlehem, Pa
When your against spacies and you are in a position to do multiple up airs is it better to do up airs while ascending or descending. Because descending ones allow you to jump again quicker. While rising ones are quicker
The depend on percentage and DI. Low percent you usualy have to ascending and at mid percents you cand do descending on platforms for the most part. You have the right idea though about how they function differently so just experiment
 
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