Forever Hopeful (Patch 1.1.5 notes)

[KingDaiGurren]

A man can dream can't he?

Edit: Christmas in March my fellow Star Warriors! (Credit to TimG57867 for sharing the buffs discovered so far)


Kirby
dsmash KBG (early) 109->110

fsmash KBG (early) 100->102
fsmash KBG (late) 67->69

upsmash KBG (early) 103/103/97->104/104/99
upsmash KBG 97->98
upsmash KBG (late) 51->52

hammer KBG (ground, no charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (ground, full charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (air, no charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (air, fully charged) 76->78

hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, head of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, handle of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, head of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, handle of hammer) 76->78

hammer custom 2 KBG (air, uncharged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (air, fully charged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, uncharged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, fully charged) 76->78

 

[TimG57867]

Whether Kirby gets buffed or not, I still can't believe over half the community was convinced that 1.1.4 was the last patch. lol As I and several others said, Sakurai only said they were done with DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT. Simple character tweeking was never explicitly ruled out.

 

[Zethoro]

According to the raw data, Kirby has confirmed changes, apparently.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

 

[Komota]

I was playin some friendlies earlier and noticed that when you eat a character (pressing down after inhale) it does 11 damage instead of 10. Kirby confirmed top tier!

 

[Zethoro]

I was playin some friendlies earlier and noticed that when you eat a character (pressing down after inhale) it does 11 damage instead of 10. Kirby confirmed top tier!

I certainly hope that's not it.

 

[TimG57867]

Indirect buff but it would seem that the matchup has become winnable! Hear that @Triple R ? You've been avenged.

(i.e. Up Air knockback changes make it no longer a true kill combo)

I was playin some friendlies earlier and noticed that when you eat a character (pressing down after inhale) it does 11 damage instead of 10. Kirby confirmed top tier!

If by some cruel work of the lord that's the only change it better make it safer on hit.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

I was playin some friendlies earlier and noticed that when you eat a character (pressing down after inhale) it does 11 damage instead of 10. Kirby confirmed top tier!

 

[Zethoro]

Indirect buff but it would seem that the matchup has become winnable! Hear that @Triple R ? You've been avenged.

(i.e. Up Air knockback changes make it no longer a true kill combo)



If by some cruel work of the lord that's the only change it better make it safer on hit.

Apparently he has a new kill combo off the side because of the new Up Air knockback.
We're still not out of the water.

 

[TimG57867]

Apparently he has a new kill combo off the side because of the new Up Air knockback.
We're still not out of the water.

As long as it doesn't guarantee your demise at 15% I'm good. Honestly, the combo itself wasn't the problem. It's just how early he could do it that was absurd. That said, I did hear about new applications of Up Air so I am definitely gonna keep my ears open now.

 

[Zethoro]

As long as it doesn't guarantee your demise at 15% I'm good. Honestly, the combo itself wasn't the problem. It's just how early he could do it that was absurd. That said, I did hear about new applications of Up Air so I am definitely gonna keep my ears open now.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Shotcalla9/status/709986797653196801/video/1

 

[TimG57867]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Shotcalla9/status/709986797653196801/video/1

Call me nutz, but I was actually afraid of something EVEN WORSE. (Seriously, this game is so wack.) You know it's funny. Pre-patch, camping on the ledge was becoming the new way to fight Meta Knight. Now it seems staying in the center will be the way to go depending how viable it is. kek

EDIT: If Tyrant is credible then there may be light at the end of this new tunnel:

https://twitter.com/NMEtyrant/status/709992810410287109

WHOA. I don't think I've seen this many nerfs in forever. After missing the mark for months, it seems the nerf gun has finally hit its mark!

• Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165
• Fair defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5
• Fair Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5
• Fthrow Angle: 70 -> 72
• Fthrow KBG 65 -> 79
• Dthrow Angle: 80 -> 77
• Dthrow KBG: 75 -> 90
• Needle: Range Decreased
• Weight: 84 -> 81

I am especially loving those throw and weight nerfs. Now Up Throw kills even sooner!

Well, KingDaiGurren , if you want to update the OP it seems some direct buffs are in:

Kirby
dsmash KBG (early) 109->110

fsmash KBG (early) 100->102
fsmash KBG (late) 67->69

upsmash KBG (early) 103/103/97->104/104/99
upsmash KBG 97->98
upsmash KBG (late) 51->52

hammer KBG (ground, no charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (ground, full charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (air, no charge) 76->78
hammer KBG (air, fully charged) 76->78

hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, head of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (air, hit 2, handle of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, head of hammer) 76->78
hammer custom 1 KBG (ground, handle of hammer) 76->78

hammer custom 2 KBG (air, uncharged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (air, fully charged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, uncharged) 76->78
hammer custom 2 KBG (ground, fully charged) 76->78

I seriously hope there's more than that. I mean knockback on kill moves is always appreciated, but I think Kirby hits hard enough as it is, especially with the Up Throw buff. What he really needs is his air game improved and a Final Cutter that can help him control space in neutral better.

But in any case, I suppose this is more incentive to try to avoid staling F-Smash. If fresh, the sweetspot could probably kill real early now.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Damn, how many times they gonna buff his already absurdly powerful smash attacks?
But yea, maybe this is what they have so far, there may be more, hopefully.

 

[Deleted member]

Yess! These buffs look great! :D

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The buffs seem well and good, but there's still one thing that Kirby "desperately" needs, and that's a buff to his air speed.

 

[KingDaiGurren]

The buffs seem well and good, but there's still one thing that Kirby "desperately" needs, and that's a buff to his air speed.

Agreed, at this point I'd be fine if they left knock back etc. alone and just gave him buffs on his frame data and air speed.

Still have no clue as to how hammer should be used though....

 

[FreeGamer]

All these slight KB buffs are exactly what he doesn't need. How about a useful Hammer, faster N-Air, less landing lag for B-Air, or more air speed, Sakurai?

 

[Zethoro]

All these slight KB buffs are exactly what he doesn't need. How about a useful Hammer, faster N-Air, less landing lag for B-Air, or more air speed, Sakurai?

Be grateful we got anything.

 

[FreeGamer]

Grateful for these things that ultimately mean very little? Sure, if you enjoy still getting outranged and outmaneuvered by 3/4 of the cast.

 

[Zethoro]

Grateful for these things that ultimately mean very little? Sure, if you enjoy still getting outranged and outmaneuvered by 3/4 of the cast.

Yes, because we shouldn't expect to be buffed as we're not bottom tiers, and having our smashes KO a couple percent earlier is better than them not getting anything at all.
Not saying I don't desperately want more air speed or anything, but it's unfair to expect or act like we deserve something when Kirby's not even that bad of a character.

 

[FreeGamer]

He's like right on the cusp of being viable/relevant. I'd say some kind of boost to his horrible neutral would push him into that perfect high-ish tier territory. A man can dream, no?

 

[Shadow Keebey]

At this point, a .05 air speed buff would be accepted to make it .85. That's Brawl Kirby's air speed, right?
Granted, .9 would probably be good, but still within the realm of possibility, .85 would probably be more realistic is any buffs were to happen.

Even if these don't really matter, at least they are buffs, instead of nothing, or even worse, nerfs.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main problem with Kirby's air speed is the fact that when you're down to just Final Cutter, it has very little horizontal momentum. And Kirby really doesn't have the recovery versatility that Meta Knight has. Increased air speed would potentially equal less mid-air jumps needed to get back onstage.

 

[Shadow Keebey]

The main problem with Kirby's air speed is the fact that when you're down to just Final Cutter, it has very little horizontal momentum. And Kirby really doesn't have the recovery versatility that Meta Knight has. Increased air speed would potentially equal less mid-air jumps needed to get back onstage.

If only Upper Cutter were legal in tourney settings. Kirby would undoubtedly be considered better.

 

[murdokdracul]

You all seem to be forgetting that Kirby is perfect the way he is.

... But it's still nice to have some buffs as a bonus.

 

[|RK|]

I haven't gotten to check, but have Copy Abilities changed (do we have better range on needles than Sheik now)?

Also does the increased power on smashes make them safer on shield? About to use Usmash like we Mario

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You all seem to be forgetting that Kirby is perfect the way he is.

Not when you have a recovery that's heavily hindered by weak air mobility. Sure, you could use the Glider bonus effect to fix that, but in most competitive matches, equipment and custom specials are off limits.

 

[FreeGamer]

Brawl Kirby was way more perfect.

>just enough air speed
>a Hammer that was actually useful
>delicious stretchy range on aerials and tilts
>the infamous Gonzo Combo
>12%(!) damage and easy followups out of D-Throw
>Dash Attack dealt a reasonable amount of damage for how risky it was
>B-Air didn't have a small eternity of landing lag
>Kirbycide that worked properly
>amazing grab range

etc etc

 

[DblCrest]

Gonzo combo?
Honestly the first time I looked into joining an online smash bros community was when Wii U and pocket smash hit despite playing all the games from the beginning XD So I'm not particularly phrase and term savvy.

I call PK Thunder 2 'Rocket Ness'

 

[KingDaiGurren]

Gonzo combo?
Honestly the first time I looked into joining an online smash bros community was when Wii U and pocket smash hit despite playing all the games from the beginning XD So I'm not particularly phrase and term savvy.


I call PK Thunder 2 'Rocket Ness'

https://youtu.be/g0JsaQJfpOc

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

An airspeed increase would be nice, and less end lag or startup on FC.

He doesn't really need much more.
I know what they essentially are constantly doing is giving him more reward for getting in, which is already good as is, so if they generally stick to that, then what reasonable buffs can their be for when he gets in he does even better then he already does?

Besides the slight run speed increase, what else made it easier to get in?
I guess an Air speed increase seems like the most logical buff.

I do hate that they keep buffing his already horrible hammer. Unless we get some sort of way to break shields easier, it's worthless.

 

[Asdioh]

I haven't gotten to check, but have Copy Abilities changed (do we have better range on needles than Sheik now)?

Also does the increased power on smashes make them safer on shield? About to use Usmash like we Mario

The Needle distance nerf affected Kirby, they have the same range. However, he still has a few less frames of endlag than Sheik does, for some reason.

The "increased power" on smashes is more knockback growth.
The knockback for a move is determined by its damage, base knockback, and knockback growth.

Base knockback is what it sounds like, it affects the minimum distance the move will launch, even at 0%. Ness' Fthrow is an iconic example of this, it has 120 base knockback and 10 knockback growth. It sends people really far at 0%, and at higher percent, it's barely any farther.

Knockback growth is basically how much your opponent's percentage affects your knockback. Cloud's Finishing Touch has knockback growth in the hundreds, which is why you're guaranteed to die after you reach a certain percent, even though it only does 1 damage.

Then there's damage, with Captain Falcon's Knee being a great example. If you sweetspot the knee, it does 19%, if you hit with the weak hit, it does 3%. Interestingly, both hits have the same base knockback/knockback growth, but the huge difference in damage is what makes the strong knee KO at super low percent, and the weak knee never KOs.


So yeah... to answer your question: shieldstun, AKA "safety on shield," has nothing to do with base knockback or knockback growth. You're looking for damage in that case, so no, we didn't gain safety on shield.

 

[|RK|]

The Needle distance nerf affected Kirby, they have the same range. However, he still has a few less frames of endlag than Sheik does, for some reason.

The "increased power" on smashes is more knockback growth.
The knockback for a move is determined by its damage, base knockback, and knockback growth.

Base knockback is what it sounds like, it affects the minimum distance the move will launch, even at 0%. Ness' Fthrow is an iconic example of this, it has 120 base knockback and 10 knockback growth. It sends people really far at 0%, and at higher percent, it's barely any farther.

Knockback growth is basically how much your opponent's percentage affects your knockback. Cloud's Finishing Touch has knockback growth in the hundreds, which is why you're guaranteed to die after you reach a certain percent, even though it only does 1 damage.

Then there's damage, with Captain Falcon's Knee being a great example. If you sweetspot the knee, it does 19%, if you hit with the weak hit, it does 3%. Interestingly, both hits have the same base knockback/knockback growth, but the huge difference in damage is what makes the strong knee KO at super low percent, and the weak knee never KOs.


So yeah... to answer your question: shieldstun, AKA "safety on shield," has nothing to do with base knockback or knockback growth. You're looking for damage in that case, so no, we didn't gain safety on shield.

Thanks! I knew the difference between KBG and BKB, but didn't realize damage was the main factor in safety. Oh well; tipper Usmash is still good.

And it's funny that we have less range but still have better frame data.

Mm... Mewtwo might be a more problematic matchup now. At release, he was super-light, and we could duck FCSB. Then, we couldn't duck it, but we got a kill throw and we both got speed boosts. Now, he's even faster and heavier. Hm. IDK.

 

[TimG57867]

Thanks! I knew the difference between KBG and BKB, but didn't realize damage was the main factor in safety. Oh well; tipper Usmash is still good.

And it's funny that we have less range but still have better frame data.

Mm... Mewtwo might be a more problematic matchup now. At release, he was super-light, and we could duck FCSB. Then, we couldn't duck it, but we got a kill throw and we both got speed boosts. Now, he's even faster and heavier. Hm. IDK.

I don't really think the matchup is gonna change that much from last patch. He was already mad faster than us last round and he's still very light. If anyone's shaping up to be a threat it's . Seriously, just look at those landing lag buffs...

 

[Dessa]

I am seriously thinking about developing a .

 

[KingDaiGurren]

I am seriously thinking about developing a .

Greninja seems like the better pick to me imo

 

[Dessa]

Greninja seems like the better pick to me imo

I have tried mightily and I just cannot get the hang of Greninja. Thankfully, I'm a filthy casual (who finds the comp scene really interesting), so I don't always have to worry about who is most viable in personal play.

That "Survive 10 rounds of Crazy Hand battles with Greninja" will forever vex me though ;-;

 

[Metallinatus]

Well, if we will talk about the better pick among Pokémon, Pikachu and Mewtwo are there for you, not Greninja.
But if you want to go Charizard instead, I don't see why not....

 

[Sc0urg3]

I really wish air speed would increase for Kirby. I think its just more frustrating that Sakurai and his team are willing to make changes to characters' stats (which was thought impossible before) and they haven't really touched Kirby significantly. Like, why does Bowser suddenly get his air speed increased to 1.0? Why can't Kirby have that? Or how about Mewtwo getting even more speed? Would it really break the game if Kirby had those changes?

 

[t!MmY]

Apparently Sakurai thinks all Kirby needs to beat Top Tiers is to hit people with Smash Attacks and Hammers.