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Forced Get-up Investigation Team!

SDMagic

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
16
Hey everyone, I've recently discovered something interesting and need help to see just how far it can go. I only have a 3DS on me at the moment so I can't really check exactly how guaranteed this is (How DI affects the whole process).

It's possible to cause a forced get-up without a platform with Toon Link. Just as a disclaimer, I've only had this work at very low percents (0-6 on Mario) but it does work.

So far I've found 2 ways to do this. The first is to jump cancel toss a bomb and immediately footstool them. The bomb puts them in the air so the footstool puts them in an untechable knockdown. From there immediately dair as soon as you can off the footstool. Because the percent is so low, the dair does not spike him and puts him in a jab locked state. A strange side effect of using dair is that the windbox pushes him away. From this point I've found that a dash grab can connect despite the push. This does a cool 20% before the grab connects so a total of 20 + however much you can get off the grab.

The second way is a bit more tricky. You have to throw out the boomerang and footstool the opponent when the boomerang hits coming back. The main reason this is harder is because the boomerang catching animation can interrupt your attempt at footstooling. After the footstool everything works the same as before.

I'm not sure exactly how far this can go. Maybe the pushback from the windbox can push the opponent off a platform and cause a traditional forced getup as well. Maybe there's better followups then grab. Maybe there's a way to continue the lock after the dair. I need your help to explore this!
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
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BRoomer
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Sep 22, 2008
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WinMelee, Australia
Well in case anyone is wondering I can confirm that this is legit. To clarify though, it stops working when Mario is on 6% before the JC bomb throw.

There is one big problem with this though. Both the character being footstooled and Toon have some control over which way the landing windbox pushes them, and if they get pushed off the edge of the stage or platform, they immediately regain control. Toon can move slightly left or right once the Dair connects while the opponent can move left and right after they are footstooled. It might end up being character specific, but with Mario at least, he has more control than Toon does, so he can deliberately drift towards the edge after being footstooled to get himself pushed off the edge. But that's not the worst of it. Characters with high aerial speed or who are floaty or who are just small can actually avoid the Dair altogether. To give you a idea, Toon can actually avoid it (just) by drifting behind the attacking Toon (Mario can't avoid it either way).

As for follow-ups, Dash attack is also possible. It does 8% while the throws do 7%, but then if you tacked on a single pummel for 2%, well yeah. Neither lead into anything else.

But then the potential follow ups will depend on the character you're versing.
For example, against a Bowser, you can do pretty much anything because he doesn't get sent that far away from you due to his weight.
E.g. you can actually land an F-smash on him into f-smash 2, for an inescapable combo that does 41%.
It is worth noting at this point that it will stop working when Bowser is on 9% before the JC throw.
Alternatively you can walk forward slightly and get Bowser in some U-tilts before he can shield.
 

ephOE

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 31, 2015
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117
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Northern Virginia
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Zamiel1i
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If the Dair locks them could you continue the lock with an Arrow? If you could that should put them in enough stun to get in a JC Up Smash or even Utilt if they don't land too far away. As long as there isn't a ledge for the other player to fall off, you can cover both sides of yourself if you're able to reverse the Arrow.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
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Joined
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If the Dair locks them could you continue the lock with an Arrow? If you could that should put them in enough stun to get in a JC Up Smash or even Utilt if they don't land too far away. As long as there isn't a ledge for the other player to fall off, you can cover both sides of yourself if you're able to reverse the Arrow.
In order to re-lock, you need to hit them during their 'flop' animation. By the time Toon is able to act due to the Dair landing lag, it's too late, not to mention the fact that the arrow also takes a while to come out. Link's auto canceled Nair to arrow only barely works to give you an idea, and though I haven't checked it yet, I'd be surprised if the arrow can actually hit before they can shield it; even if it does hit however, that would be while they are in the standing up animation, and so no, we definitely can't get a re-lock out of this.


Edit: A thought just occurred to me. Another set up for this would be Zair to footstool.
 
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SDMagic

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
16
I've thought of something I haven't been able to test because I can't get the computer to roll or spot dodge on command.

Would the boomerang be a light enough hit to continue the lock? If so you may be able to, if they roll or spot dodge an incoming boomerang, punish them with the lock and have the returning boomerang continue the lock while we're recovering from Dair. If it works then medium weight characters such as Mario should be locked long enough to get both parts of the fsmash or utilts in for maximum damage. (Maybe we even have time to add in a third locking hit like dtilt)

The only thing is that we have to push them in the direction of the returning boomerang.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

Smash Detective
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The other moves with locking properties other than low percents Dair are normal arrows, the returning custom 3 boomerang, and on very low percents F-tilt, Nair and D-tilt can also work.
This could make it difficult as you may imagine because the custom 3 boomerang is quite fast. On the other hand, it also means that the opponent doesn't have to spotdodge/roll as the high-speed boomerang goes right through the opponent on hit.

I'll try it with Bowser first just because he'll be closer which will give the boomerang more time.

Ok, so far so good. The custom 3 boomerang up close to instant JC throw is a combo, but then, yeah, the boomerang returns before I can even get the footstool even though it was a smash throw. Incidentally, the returning boomerang actually extends the combo.
Let's just see where this goes.
The footstool after the returning boomerang is still unavoidable, and the rest is the same so long as Bowser was on 5% or less before the initial closer up boomerang hit. And if you convert the Dair into the F-smash, it results in an inescapable 45% combo if you are holding a bomb and smash throw the custom 3 boomerang such that it hits up close when they are on very low percents.
We didn't come away with nothing. Because of the returning boomerang it should be easier to get the footstool. And it also means that now we have yet another way to set this up.
 
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SDMagic

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
16
Great stuff man! I'm glad this was able to turn into something useful. When I found it I thought there's a decent chance it could end up as "combo video" tech but I wanted to get it explored because it seemed like there was some good potential I couldn't drag out myself.

Just as an extra thought, what would happen if we throw the boomerang behind us then set up the lock making sure to move through the opponent so the pushback knocks em into the boomerang? Would the extra distance the boomerang has to go make it stay out long enough to allow us to setup the lock? (or actually, even with the regular boomerang if the timing ends up being right the returning hit could knock the getting up opponent towards us possibly allowing us to combo to Fsmash on characters we weren't able to originally).

Edit: I'm going to be furiously testing the regular boomerang part in about an hour, will post results.

Edit 2: Results! This is a complete mixed bag.
Good news! It works! If you throw the normal boomerang backwards then go for the lock, making sure to push the opponent towards the boomerang the boomerang WILL come back with enough time for you to combo off of the boomerang hit. I managed to get the lock into return boomerang into ftilt (surprisingly enough, training counted the dair as part of the combo counter in this case [It said there was a combo of 3 which means that he didn't have enough time to start restanding]).
Bad news! It doesn't work on Mario! This one's kinda interesting, it's not that the boomerang doesn't have time to hit him, it's that his locked hitbox is too low for the boomerang to connect. I'm going to assume this applies to most characters that have similar flat horizontal hitboxes on the ground (not sure on the exact breaking point though, I know it works on Bowser and DK).
Good news! While I could only get the ftilt out because the DS doesn't have a c-stick and I can't get it to not tilt for the life of me, it looks like Fsmash should work here (not 100% sure though).
Bad news! The boomerang catch animation can interrupt your followup! While i'm not sure if it can be avoided by buffering a smash, many times during my attempts I would end up catching the boomerang and missing the followup.
Good news! This can be a mixup tool! If you throw your boomerang backwards and rush in, normally you can run through them and pivot tilt/smash/throw a bomb/grab. If they do shield/spotdodge your attempt they still have to worry about the boomerang coming back. So one thing you can do is get them with one of these mixups to finish out a stock (backthrow/fsmash/high%ftilt/JCUsmash/bomb into Usmash), then on his next stock after the invincibility you look like you're going to try the same setup again with throwing the boomerang backwards and rushing in, but this time instead of running through them you hit them with the lock. They'll think you're just going to try to run through them again and probably try to grab/jab/tilt you to stop you, which means that the bomb will connect. How many times you need to do the regular cross up to get this to work depends on who you're up against, you'll need to condition some people longer than others to get them to react how you want.
(This section was more my rantings, but this is an example of a practical tourney safe application of this tech.)
 
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