Follow Up On Gravy's Pivot Method

[Haku_]

Hello,

I've read a lot and seen a lot of evidence to what effect empty pivots can have on Falcon's movement/control.
I've been able to get pivot actions (grab, jab, jump) consistent.
However, my consistency of doing empty pivots is garbage. Usually resulting in either a short moonwalk or just a short dash in the opposite direction.
My controller is pretty good for doing the "stupid" method of pivots (flicking the control stick and releasing it to neutral) but I would like to substitute that with Gravy's Quarter Circle method (Flick the control stick to start dash then move down to crouch).
The main action I'm trying to accomplish is empty pivot into WD to ledge for a quick ledge grab.

First, should my control stick go all the way until it hits the plastic before moving down?
Second, should I start moving down to crouch before my control stick reaches the notch?
Third, after attempting the pivot should I let go of the control stick to neutral or hold it (in practice only)?
Fourth, the speed which this is done was described by Gravy as "be consistent in speed and not frantic." Should it be as fast as a dashback out of crouch (1 frame window) or a slower more deliberate action?

 

[coilerr]

Why is the flicking method stupid? It works great for me

 

[Haku_]

Why is the flicking method stupid? It works great for me

It's less consistent between controllers was Gravy's reasoning. I could see why he would say that. Also, I think it would be easier to perform in high pressure situations and eliminates the need to worry about your controller if it has an issue of having snapback (which one of mine does.)


So I spent a couple hours in the lab to figure out what I was doing wrong.
I was doing the quarter circle too slowly. Basically you have 2 frames where you want to initiate your opposite dash (turn) then go into crouch.
I would still like to hear how other who use the quarter circle method move their control stick, most specifically my second question in my original post.

 

[tauKhan]

First, should my control stick go all the way until it hits the plastic before moving down?

Here's an input map done by Kadano

Your objective is to move your stick into the smash turn zone for 1 frame (not 2 frames as one of your replies would imply) and then immediately move it out of it for the next frame. I find it easiest to move out of the smash turn zone by angling the turn input as near the bottom corner of the zone as possible, so that you don't need to move your stick lot to get out of the zone. So aim just a tiny bit above bottom corner notch for the turn, and roll down ASAP. For me the input I do feels like I first accelerate my stick straight sideways until it's in the middle. Then since at that point the stick has enough speed sideways already, I start adding downwards force when the stick is in the middle.

 

[Haku_]

Thanks TauKhan!
Your explanation was great! (especially for something as difficult as describing how to move your control stick)

 

[Boost!]

This thread just saved me

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Kadanos chart is pretty great, I can use this to develop my marths movement(which I just picked up)

As the person above said, this thread "saved" me as well

 

[reverie2]

Here's an input map done by Kadano

Your objective is to move your stick into the smash turn zone for 1 frame (not 2 frames as one of your replies would imply) and then immediately move it out of it for the next frame. I find it easiest to move out of the smash turn zone by angling the turn input as near the bottom corner of the zone as possible, so that you don't need to move your stick lot to get out of the zone. So aim just a tiny bit above bottom corner notch for the turn, and roll down ASAP. For me the input I do feels like I first accelerate my stick straight sideways until it's in the middle. Then since at that point the stick has enough speed sideways already, I start adding downwards force when the stick is in the middle.

Does this mean you can only empty pivot when you turn backwards? And just to clarify, it's 1 frame smash turn, 1 frame anything not smash turn and you are guaranteed an empty pivot?

 

[tauKhan]

Does this mean you can only empty pivot when you turn backwards? And just to clarify, it's 1 frame smash turn, 1 frame anything not smash turn and you are guaranteed an empty pivot?

I'm not sure what you're asking, but empty pivot is just a smash turn. To answer the second question, if you move your stick up to the jump zone after, then you'll of course pivot jump, but the other actions (crouch, walk, turn to other direction) aren't possible during turn.

 

[reverie2]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but empty pivot is just a smash turn. To answer the second question, if you move your stick up to the jump zone after, then you'll of course pivot jump, but the other actions (crouch, walk, turn to other direction) aren't possible during turn.

So in 20xx, in develop mode, i pressed start, held stick to smash turn position (all the way horizontal), pressed z to go 1 frame, then released everythign and kept pressing z, but only got turn in place. did i miss something?

 

[tauKhan]

That's empty pivot you're describing.

 

[reverie2]

That's empty pivot you're describing.

Empty pivot is when you move some distance, then turn your face around. I'm only getting just turn around in place (without moving any distance)?

 

[tauKhan]

It's usually done out of dash so that you move first in your dash.

 

[The Shadow]

The bottom right and left part of the octagon gate has to be crossed in the quarter circle motion hence gravys name for it.

You're moonwalking however because empty pivots only have one frame of leeway and you're not doing it fast enough.

 

[tauKhan]

The bottom right and left part of the octagon gate has to be crossed in the quarter circle motion hence gravys name for it.

You're moonwalking however because empty pivots only have one frame of leeway and you're not doing it fast enough.

I wish angled pivot or something along those lines was popular instead, quartercircle makes it sound like you'd need to do larger rotational movement than you actually have to. Just a very tiny bit of rotation is enough if you angle your dash properly.

Guess I should've pushed harder for that when I first posted the method

 

[The Shadow]

Yea, the bridge between the dash and crouch just has to be crossed and it's just easier to do it in a quarter circle motion.

 

[tauKhan]

I'd say it's definitely easier to just angle your input well. Also nothing to do with crouch, you can't even crouch out of turn.