First Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List

It is common for fighting game communities to create a tier list for their game as a source of reference and debate regarding the tournament viability of the cast. The Smash scene is no exception to this, and all games in the series have had a tier list posted to SmashBoards. More often than not, the website itself was instrumental to the creation of these lists, mainly through projects organized by the so-called Smash Back Room for each respective game.

Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS finds itself in the unique position of receiving patches, DLC characters and stages for more than a year after release, with two more characters still forthcoming. As a result of this, it made sense to hold off on tier list discussion until a period of relative stability came along. The current patch (1.1.3) left the majority of the cast relatively untouched and had Genesis 3 as a major showcase, so we chose this build as a foundation. With the recent launch of the 4BR, we were in a good position for the official tier list project to finally get underway.

The 4BR acknowledges that tier lists are often controversial and won't be perfect at the first iteration, if ever. We do, however, strive to study the game to the best of our ability and give a sincere opinion on the current state of affairs. As such, a tier list can be an important benchmark to look back on as the game progresses.

To illustrate this, compare the first and last tier lists for Brawl. Over the nearly 5 years separating the two, we saw the fall of top tier threats like King Dedede, R.O.B. and Mr. Game & Watch, the rise of supposed mid tiers like Captain Olimar and Zero Suit Samus and the blatant early misjudgment of Zelda's potential. Despite these major shifts, the majority of the cast did not end up that far from where they initially started.

Our community has pushed Smash 4 hard from day one, and we have more resources at our disposal than ever before, be it complete frame data, tutorials, or tournament footage. It will be interesting to see how this affects our accuracy in rating the cast, something only time will tell. All that being said, we are proud to present you the first official tier list for Smash Bros. for Wii U!

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group. They had to assume play under the 1.1.3 patch with no custom moves allowed, while Miis had to be considered with their 1111 moveset only, in accordance with tournament reality at the biggest events. The 4BR at this moment has no official stance or recommendation on ruleset matters.

We agreed to let voting run until after Genesis 3, which would hopefully provide us with insights into especially the more recent additions to the cast, most notably Cloud. During the voting process, there was a separate topic for reasoning and discussion. We also asked a small group of non-members to submit a vote, in order to involve more people at the forefront of the metagame. We ended up with 53 votes, of which 34 were American and 19 were international.

These are the people who submitted a vote:

Spoiler: List of Voters

@AeroLink_the_SoulMaster (AeroLink)
@Alphicans
@Amazing Ampharos
@Ambrose (My Smash Corner)
@ASC | Red Ryu
@Camalange
@CHOMPY
@CYVE
@Dabuz
@DtJ XeroXen
@D1
@earth_tyt (Earth)
@False
@Fox Is Openly Deceptive
@gsmVoiD (VoiD)
@istudying
@John123456
@Katakiri
@k9.
@Liberation
Marc
@Meru.
@Mister Eric
@Mr-R
@Myran
@NAKAT
@NickRiddle
@nietono
@qb9b
@Ranai
@Raziek
@Rayquaza07
@Remzi (VABengal)
@rintarosu10 (RIN)
@san.
@Seagull Joe
@Shaya
@Slice~ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Spinosaurus
@SS_and_TH (Komorikiri)
@TA~Mav
@The calm tyrant... (Tyrant)
@TheReflexWonder
@Thinkaman
@Trela
@UltimateRazer (GrimTurtle)
@vyQ (Beefy Smash Doods)
@Xiivi
@Xzax Kasrani
@Zan-
@Zigsta
@---
@-6WX-

Spoiler: Breakdown by region

USA
Atlantic North: 12
Midwest: 8
Pacific West: 7
Southwest: 4
Atlantic South: 3

International
Europe: 8
Japan: 6
Canada: 3
Australia: 2

Note that we will not release individual votes, but any voter is free to share his own vote with the public. The most notable abstainee was @TSM ZeRo, who felt it was still too early for a tier list.

Results

@Shaya processed the votes and found these average placements, standard deviations and gaps between average placements for the cast:

Spoiler: Raw voting data

Character | Average Placement | Standard Deviation | Gap
Sheik | 20.0 | 0.0 | 0.0
Zero Suit Samus | 19.46 | 0.708 | 0.538
Rosalina | 18.77 | 0.87 | 0.687
Ryu | 17.95 | 1.103 | 0.82
Pikachu | 17.86 | 1.065 | 0.099
Sonic | 17.83 | 1.269 | 0.021
Fox | 17.52 | 1.146 | 0.313
Mario | 17.51 | 1.108 | 0.014
Diddy Kong | 17.43 | 0.998 | 0.082
Meta Knight | 17.12 | 1.489 | 0.307
Villager | 16.52 | 1.614 | 0.597
Cloud | 16.5 | 1.657 | 0.023
Ness | 16.39 | 1.502 | 0.11
Captain Falcon | 15.16 | 1.767 | 1.228
Yoshi | 15.15 | 1.893 | 0.013
Luigi | 14.27 | 1.996 | 0.881
Dark Pit | 13.89 | 2.138 | 0.381
Pit | 13.88 | 2.308 | 0.006
Peach | 13.75 | 2.115 | 0.133
R.O.B. | 13.63 | 2.221 | 0.12
Wario | 13.56 | 1.898 | 0.067
Toon Link | 13.2 | 2.416 | 0.357
Lucario | 12.92 | 2.224 | 0.285
Olimar | 12.47 | 2.452 | 0.454
Greninja | 12.25 | 2.633 | 0.215
Ike | 12.12 | 2.425 | 0.126
Donkey Kong | 11.8 | 2.252 | 0.325
Mega Man | 11.41 | 2.159 | 0.386
Pac-Man | 11.29 | 2.278 | 0.124
Bowser | 10.81 | 2.66 | 0.477
Robin | 10.17 | 2.722 | 0.642
Roy | 9.29 | 3.209 | 0.883
Kirby | 9.1 | 3.388 | 0.183
Bowser Jr. | 8.93 | 2.671 | 0.176
Mr. Game & Watch | 8.72 | 2.47 | 0.21
Lucas | 8.65 | 2.993 | 0.071
Mewtwo | 8.35 | 2.666 | 0.297
Falco | 8.12 | 3.026 | 0.232
Wii Fit Trainer | 8.08 | 2.674 | 0.037
Shulk | 7.75 | 2.926 | 0.325
Marth | 7.72 | 2.237 | 0.038
Link | 7.47 | 2.474 | 0.249
Duck Hunt Dog | 7.18 | 3.11 | 0.283
Little Mac | 7.18 | 2.633 | 0.009
Dr. Mario | 7.14 | 2.437 | 0.033
King Dedede | 6.04 | 2.721 | 1.107
Lucina | 5.59 | 2.547 | 0.447
Mii Brawler | 5.01 | 2.952 | 0.584
Charizard | 4.79 | 2.255 | 0.218
Palutena | 4.78 | 2.199 | 0.008
Samus | 4.12 | 1.942 | 0.656
Mii Gunner | 3.6 | 2.153 | 0.525
Mii Swordsman | 3.32 | 2.054 | 0.282
Ganondorf | 3.23 | 1.675 | 0.082
Jigglypuff | 2.79 | 2.035 | 0.448
Zelda | 1.96 | 1.259 | 0.828

A standard deviation of (close to) 0 means that voters generally placed the character close to the mean, while a higher standard deviation means that the character had a larger range of placements. Most standard deviations are over 1, indicating that we are far from a consensus.

We considered all gaps over .50 as tier separation points and those above .75 for a change in label (Top, High, etc.). However, we decided against single character tiers and the C tier occupying a "High Mid" label with just two characters. Finally, we split F tier into two based on the largest difference within that group of 14 characters.

Official 4BR Smash for Wii U Tier List v1.0 (1.1.3 patch)

Top
S:

High
A:
B:

Middle
C:
D:
E:

Low
F:
G:

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

Text version:

S: Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, Rosalina & Luma
A: Ryu, Pikachu, Sonic, Fox, Mario, Diddy Kong, Meta Knight
B: Villager, Cloud, Ness
C: Captain Falcon, Yoshi
D: Luigi, Dark Pit, Pit, Peach, R.O.B., Wario, Toon Link, Lucario
E: Captain Olimar, Greninja, Ike, Donkey Kong, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Bowser, Robin
F: Roy, Kirby, Bowser Jr., Mr. Game & Watch, Lucas, Mewtwo, Falco, Wii Fit Trainer
G: Shulk, Marth, Link, Duck Hunt, Little Mac, Dr. Mario
H: King Dedede, Lucina
I: Mii Brawler, Charizard, Palutena
J: Samus, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordfighter, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Zelda

Graphic version:

Conclusion

The first year of Smash 4 has been an absolute rollercoaster, with players flocking from Bowser to Diddy Kong to Sheik to Luigi to Donkey Kong to Sheik again. With the completion of the cast on the horizon and the nerfs and buffs slowing to a halt, the game can be expected to come to full fruition in 2016. We can't wait to see the Smash 4 tier list evolve over the years as Smashers all over the world rise to the challenge -- and with them, their respective characters.

What do you think of the tier list? Would you have placed any characters differently? Let us know what your thoughts and questions are and we will try to address the most common ones in a followup article, which will also include a more in-depth analysis of the results with statements by 4BR members.

Major thanks go out to @Shaya for processing the votes, @Zigsta and @Liberation for helping with the release and @Xiivi, @Shaya, and @Camalange for collecting outside votes and various odds and ends. Finally, a shoutout to all the voters for their time and input. I was proud to spearhead this project and receive help from so many dedicated people.

 

Except they're not? You can't space properly for both the combo and for safety.

You can dodge before Roy can grab, but that also requires Roy to space absurdly close. Roy's poor dash attack and dash grab make it difficult to punish or pressure somebody who simply rolls away, before or after Nair hits the shield, never mind the fact that Roy's grab game isn't that damaging either. Nair > grab is way more effective on Pit because it's just as safe (maybe I'm a frame off but it still forces people to dodge or get grabbed) and he has better chasing options plus a better grab game.

Marth's much harder to challenge because his is f5 or so and he can afford to whiff an aerial offstage, while Roy's is f12 and he can't due to his physics.

Marth can with his floatiness and Dancing Blade, but Roy really can't enough to matter. Both of their Uspecials have rather poor hitbox placement that doesn't protect their heads at all and as such are easily gimped from above, so they're both, but especially Roy, Dair bait.

To me it seems more like you're ignoring what every other character can do... I'm sure Roy struggles to gimp another Roy but he still has a bad recovery.

They do well, at rinky-dink tournaments where they're often the only decent players there. Their results beyond a local level is underwhelming... Even Palutena and Link have better regional and national results. Pretty sure Shulk does too.

that depends on roy's percent. High percent, of course, you space for safety, and that can still catch people with falling Uair or Nair. Low percent, you just space for the combo as usual.

Not all chars can dodge before his grab. His dash attack is meh, I agree, it's mostly just an okay kill move. But his dash attack really isn't bad. It's not as good as Falcon's, but it's certainly not bad. Roy's grab game by itself is mid or mid-low level, but his grab combos in particular are higher. As I said before, Roy has high damaging combos on the majority of the cast with DI. Against some, his Fthrow can even set up kills, like against marth and lucina for example.

Marth's is faster, but Roy's has super armor on the startup, which is the only reason why it's also a combo breaker.

Dancing blade does not help as a mix up at all. It's almost completely useless besides basic recovering without the threat of an edgeguard. They can both recover high and low, but marth can recover lower and roy can recover higher with his increased horizontal movement. With his fastfalling, recovering high isn't a bad option due to the fact that he can quickly land and keep fighting.

I'm not. I use a wide variety of characters, just Roy, Ike, Pikachu, Corrin, and Toon Link for tournament and more seriously competitive matches.

Also, roy really doesn't struggle at edgeguarding pretty much everybody. The same goes for the rest of the FE characters. Their edgeguarding game isn't the best, but it's certainly not the worst either.

That's really not true...Roy/Roy mains place better than you think at those bigger tournaments. You just don't really care enough about Roy to look into his placings, I'm guessing.

 

that depends on roy's percent. High percent, of course, you space for safety, and that can still catch people with falling Uair or Nair. Low percent, you just space for the combo as usual.

Not all chars can dodge before his grab. His dash attack is meh, I agree, it's mostly just an okay kill move. But his dash attack really isn't bad. It's not as good as Falcon's, but it's certainly not bad. Roy's grab game by itself is mid or mid-low level, but his grab combos in particular are higher. As I said before, Roy has high damaging combos on the majority of the cast with DI. Against some, his Fthrow can even set up kills, like against marth and lucina for example.

Marth's is faster, but Roy's has super armor on the startup, which is the only reason why it's also a combo breaker.

Dancing blade does not help as a mix up at all. It's almost completely useless besides basic recovering without the threat of an edgeguard. They can both recover high and low, but marth can recover lower and roy can recover higher with his increased horizontal movement. With his fastfalling, recovering high isn't a bad option due to the fact that he can quickly land and keep fighting.

I'm not. I use a wide variety of characters, just Roy, Ike, Pikachu, Corrin, and Toon Link for tournament and more seriously competitive matches.

Also, roy really doesn't struggle at edgeguarding pretty much everybody. The same goes for the rest of the FE characters. Their edgeguarding game isn't the best, but it's certainly not the worst either.

That's really not true...Roy/Roy mains place better than you think at those bigger tournaments. You just don't really care enough about Roy to look into his placings, I'm guessing.

See, I find it hard to believe anything you say when you're throwing out blatant misinformation like the armor on Blazer. The armor doesn't exist in the air, and the first hitbox is f9. That's not a good combo breaker at all.

Bayo should be the only character that can't roll away from the grab due to the mechanics of Bat Within.

Roy's most damaging throw combos are quite risky as they involve Blazer and are easy to DI out of. His most damaging true combos don't have very good ranges to even perform them and still aren't that special. Even Pit has low % combos that do upwards of 25%.

Yeeeeah no I've seen plenty of great Marths use Dancing Blade to aid their recovery. You're still insisting otherwise?

I know about Roy's placings and they're definitely not mid tier. Palutena's looking more mid tier then Roy is.

 

Not nearly accurate enough. Can probably make one now that the last update has been put in (1.1.6) and all the characters are in. 1.1.6 is most likely the last update and nerf/buff.

 

The patches aren't gonna stop. Like it'll be a long time until we can make an actual tier list.

 

Mega Man bottom middle tier....... nah more like top tier.

 

See, I find it hard to believe anything you say when you're throwing out blatant misinformation like the armor on Blazer. The armor doesn't exist in the air, and the first hitbox is f9. That's not a good combo breaker at all.

Bayo should be the only character that can't roll away from the grab due to the mechanics of Bat Within.

Roy's most damaging throw combos are quite risky as they involve Blazer and are easy to DI out of. His most damaging true combos don't have very good ranges to even perform them and still aren't that special. Even Pit has low % combos that do upwards of 25%.

Yeeeeah no I've seen plenty of great Marths use Dancing Blade to aid their recovery. You're still insisting otherwise?

I know about Roy's placings and they're definitely not mid tier. Palutena's looking more mid tier then Roy is.

I know it doesn't exist in the air, but there are combos on the ground that some chars can do, and I even said it's his worst option.

That depends on shield size as well, and speed of rolls.

Roy's Dthrow -> Uspecial is his least damaging combo, it's just that he can use it at later percents. For example, his Dthrow - Jab - Double Edge Dance Multihit option does way more damage.

No I meant specifically mix-ups. Not plain recovery.

No. She's not. She's got about 1 person doing well, and roy has about 5.

 

I know it doesn't exist in the air, but there are combos on the ground that some chars can do, and I even said it's his worst option.

That depends on shield size as well, and speed of rolls.

Roy's Dthrow -> Uspecial is his least damaging combo, it's just that he can use it at later percents. For example, his Dthrow - Jab - Double Edge Dance Multihit option does way more damage.

No I meant specifically mix-ups. Not plain recovery.

No. She's not. She's got about 1 person doing well, and roy has about 5.

Lol D-Throw -> USpecial is really bad and isn't even a true combo

 

I know it doesn't exist in the air, but there are combos on the ground that some chars can do, and I even said it's his worst option.

That depends on shield size as well, and speed of rolls.

Roy's Dthrow -> Uspecial is his least damaging combo, it's just that he can use it at later percents. For example, his Dthrow - Jab - Double Edge Dance Multihit option does way more damage.

No I meant specifically mix-ups. Not plain recovery.

No. She's not. She's got about 1 person doing well, and roy has about 5.

Whenever Roy hits the ground he's subjected to lag, 2 or 5 depending on how it happens. That pushes the armor on Blazer back to f6 at best, and does nothing about grabs while losing hard to shield. It's terrible at breaking combos.

This is strictly about frame data if the opponent is in range. Shield size and roll speed don't mean anything when all but one character can spotdodge out.

If we're talking about super situational combos Pit can do Dthrow > Dair > Dair > Uair for 36%, which is a percent more then Roy could do if every hit was the strong hitbox somehow. I doubt it would even work if you did. Actually I doubt it's completely true since the combo counter is garbage... Pit's combo is true with the right percent ranges. Been tested against humans with SDI.

Being able to be unpredictable with your recovery when it's not 99% safe already is a pretty important aspect of it.

Ninjalink and Iceninja have, if I remember correctly, placed well at regional tournaments multiple times. Nobody's done anything significant with Roy.

 

Whenever Roy hits the ground he's subjected to lag, 2 or 5 depending on how it happens. That pushes the armor on Blazer back to f6 at best, and does nothing about grabs while losing hard to shield. It's terrible at breaking combos.

This is strictly about frame data if the opponent is in range. Shield size and roll speed don't mean anything when all but one character can spotdodge out.

If we're talking about super situational combos Pit can do Dthrow > Dair > Dair > Uair for 36%, which is a percent more then Roy could do if every hit was the strong hitbox somehow. I doubt it would even work if you did. Actually I doubt it's completely true since the combo counter is garbage... Pit's combo is true with the right percent ranges. Been tested against humans with SDI.

Being able to be unpredictable with your recovery when it's not 99% safe already is a pretty important aspect of it.

Ninjalink and Iceninja have, if I remember correctly, placed well at regional tournaments multiple times. Nobody's done anything significant with Roy.

Ok, I'm actually done this time.

All I want to quickly cover is the combo.

Roy does the same amount of damage or more (if he includes the Nair to lead into the grab easily) in more situations. Roy's Dthrow combo is definitely not super situational. Don't get me wrong, the Pits are better than Roy. It is a true combo, just not against chars like jiggs, who still takes a lot of damage from Fthrow combos anyway.

 

All I want to quickly cover is the combo.

Roy does the same amount of damage or more (if he includes the Nair to lead into the grab easily) in more situations. Roy's Dthrow combo is definitely not super situational. Don't get me wrong, the Pits are better than Roy. It is a true combo, just not against chars like jiggs, who still takes a lot of damage from Fthrow combos anyway.

The problem is that he doesn't. Even with his best players most combos are simple two hit ones that end up dealing poor damage because his aerials aren't even well-tuned before you account for the backwards hitboxes. Like, the weak hit of Marth's Uair does more then Roy's strong hit. That's just laughably bad.

The point isn't that the Pits are better, it's that I can pick almost any character in the roster and find equal or better combos then what Roy has. Just comparing raw anything to Roy makes him look like a bottom 10 character. Every single good aspect of Roy is counteracted by some other difference completely and utterly.

 

Ok so... can another one be made for 1.1.5. So we can see bayo in her own tier or something for memes sake? Then make one for 1.1.6 and then get it over with?


Oh and place sonic a bit higher for the Momocon placing.
Seriously though this thing is out dated

 

This really needs an update lol

 

This really needs an update lol

Two big majors are coming up between now and August. Might as well wait until they're done before updates are made rofl

Plus there's still the chance of updates, and we've seen how heavily tweaks can influence a character and their overall standing.

 

An update should come out after the summer season of smash

 

Shouldn't we, like, update this?
I'm just saying, we have Corrin, Bayonetta, and 3 patches to sift through with this, so...

 

Two big majors are coming up between now and August. Might as well wait until they're done before updates are made rofl

Plus there's still the chance of updates, and we've seen how heavily tweaks can influence a character and their overall standing.

Oh. That makes sense. Forget what I just said.

 

Is Zelda really that bad? Zelda has some potential unlike the Mii sword fighter, which i think should be the worst character in the game. With that being said though this is my opinion.

 

There are just so many problems with this tier list (so many).

 

I agree with zero. It's too early for a tier list, especially when we don't have all the characters

me too

 

I think that this tier list just reflects the metagame, not the options/ abilities of the characters when played well.

 

I don't understand everything about competitive smash and stuff but why do people say I'm bad if I use little mac if he's low on the tier list, but if I win with him they'll call him O.P.? I don't understand can someone please explain?

 

Is anyone aware of a Tier list refresh for 1.1.6 at all?

 

I don't understand everything about competitive smash and stuff but why do people say I'm bad if I use little mac if he's low on the tier list, but if I win with him they'll call him O.P.? I don't understand can someone please explain?

People will complain about anything, lmao.

If you're winning with Mac consistently you're probably way better then whoever you're fighting.

 

I don't understand everything about competitive smash and stuff but why do people say I'm bad if I use little mac if he's low on the tier list, but if I win with him they'll call him O.P.? I don't understand can someone please explain?

A lot of people tend to claim things they don't understand as OP, Little Mac is a powerhouse, he strength is technically OP but what he lacks because of that strength is his aerials and aerial mobility. Because of this he can be very easily exploited if you know how to do it properly.

People will complain about anything, lmao.
If you're winning with Mac consistently you're probably way better then whoever you're fighting.

LancerStaff is right here, it sounds like whoever your playing doesn't fully understand how to play against Mac and resorts to johning about how he is OP. A tier list is put there for a reason and Mac is fairly low but that is just due to his weaknesses being very easily exploitable. That being said it doesn't mean low tier characters can't be played well, an example within my local scene, in our top 5 players we have a Falco, a Bowser, a Robin, a Ganon and a Yoshi. This hasn't changed for like 6 months now and all these characters are considered low middle to low tier with the exception of Yoshi who by the official tier list (Although out of date I don't think Yoshi has moved much) is a high middle tier.

 

Whenever Roy hits the ground he's subjected to lag, 2 or 5 depending on how it happens. That pushes the armor on Blazer back to f6 at best, and does nothing about grabs while losing hard to shield. It's terrible at breaking combos.

This is strictly about frame data if the opponent is in range. Shield size and roll speed don't mean anything when all but one character can spotdodge out.

If we're talking about super situational combos Pit can do Dthrow > Dair > Dair > Uair for 36%, which is a percent more then Roy could do if every hit was the strong hitbox somehow. I doubt it would even work if you did. Actually I doubt it's completely true since the combo counter is garbage... Pit's combo is true with the right percent ranges. Been tested against humans with SDI.

Being able to be unpredictable with your recovery when it's not 99% safe already is a pretty important aspect of it.

Ninjalink and Iceninja have, if I remember correctly, placed well at regional tournaments multiple times. Nobody's done anything significant with Roy.

There are multiple ways Roy can dish out 30 to 40% at low to mid %s when it comes to combos, to think that he only has a few strings is asinine (he has a 52% combo which goes as follows: Uair>Bair>landing Uair> Fair>Fair). He also has some very good and reliable kill confirms. I can still see him being somewhat low on the tier list due to lack of representation, but this character is by no means bad or underwhelming. Yeah, Roy has his flaws, but so does every other char. It's not even like his flaws are crippling or anything lol. He has ways to work around them.

Also his jab is frame 5, as is his Uair. The reason Roy's Uair does less damage than Marth's is because it's supposed to be used as a combo starter, obviously. 9% isn't too shabby in that regard, it's also safe on shield if you space it right.

 

Nowadays, notable changes imo would be)

Cloud is the best, Rosaluma at second.

Marth is up into mid tier, Lucina into low tier along w/ DDD.

 

Nowadays, notable changes imo would be)

Cloud is the best, Rosaluma at second.

Marth is up into mid tier, Lucina into low tier along w/ DDD.

I doubt Cloud is the best. For now I'd say Rosalina is the best, but in the future I can see Ryu being on top. He's already the best when it comes to the characters themselves imo, he just needs the results to prove it.

 

I doubt Cloud is the best. For now I'd say Rosalina is the best, but in the future I can see Ryu being on top. He's already the best when it comes to the characters themselves imo, he just needs the results to prove it.

I don't see how Rosalina can be considered the best character when she doesn't win any majors (unlike Cloud, Sheik, Diddy, Mario etc), and has a matchup so bad that means she cannot be solo viable (Meta Knight).

She also has more struggles than other top tiers, like Shiek and Diddy for example. In particular, Rosalina and Luma dislike disjoints, or more to the point, swords, due to their ability to hit Luma away at a safe range they cannot be punished for. The other top tier characters have less overall struggles. Yeah, Cloud's recovery can be exploited, and Sheik can struggle to KO you, but the counterplay is far less exploitable/existent than it for Rosalina.

She's no doubt top 5 in my eyes, but a strong argument must be made for her being within the top 3.

What you say about Ryu about sums up my thoughts on him. He can be the best character, but needs to show us why he's the best character before we can all agree on it.

 

Are you telling me that Mii swordfighter is better in a tournament than G-dorf?

 

Lmao, I think the only reason anyone who follows competitive Sm4sh would say Rosaluma is best is because of Dabuz. You know; ONE PERSON.

Meanwhile, the army of Clouds heading into EVO with consistent results and high placements cement the case for Cloud to be the best. There is no legitimate argument against a Cloud no. 1 position. His comparative ease to master compared to other top tier characters, ridiculous strength and amazing ability to finish people off early, great projectile, aerials, and especially his range has led to a scene which almost always features a Cloud in top 8. And unlike Rosaluma, normally, it's a different Cloud everytime.

As for Ryu... he COULD based on potential alone. His framedata and power looks very pleasing, but I can't say Ryu has as strong of a case as Cloud or even Rosaluma... because he doesn't even have that one player to take top 3 at every tourney ever.

 

Lmao, I think the only reason anyone who follows competitive Sm4sh would say Rosaluma is best is because of Dabuz. You know; ONE PERSON.

Meanwhile, the army of Clouds heading into EVO with consistent results and high placements cement the case for Cloud to be the best. There is no legitimate argument against a Cloud no. 1 position. His comparative ease to master compared to other top tier characters, ridiculous strength and amazing ability to finish people off early, great projectile, aerials, and especially his range has led to a scene which almost always features a Cloud in top 8. And unlike Rosaluma, normally, it's a different Cloud everytime.

As for Ryu... he COULD based on potential alone. His framedata and power looks very pleasing, but I can't say Ryu has as strong of a case as Cloud or even Rosaluma... because he doesn't even have that one player to take top 3 at every tourney ever.

Can't say i don't agree. No need to be an ass about it though.

 

Can't say i don't agree. No need to be an *** about it though.

But i need to be the Lffn

 

Alright! A new (not really, but it's the first time that I'm seeing it) and official tier list! I wonder where Corrin and Bayonetta (pre-patch and thereafter) would end up?

 

here's hoping we get a v2 of this list, with mii specials.

 

There are multiple ways Roy can dish out 30 to 40% at low to mid %s when it comes to combos, to think that he only has a few strings is asinine (he has a 52% combo which goes as follows: Uair>Bair>landing Uair> Fair>Fair). He also has some very good and reliable kill confirms. I can still see him being somewhat low on the tier list due to lack of representation, but this character is by no means bad or underwhelming. Yeah, Roy has his flaws, but so does every other char. It's not even like his flaws are crippling or anything lol. He has ways to work around them.

Also his jab is frame 5, as is his Uair. The reason Roy's Uair does less damage than Marth's is because it's supposed to be used as a combo starter, obviously. 9% isn't too shabby in that regard, it's also safe on shield if you space it right.

How many of those combos work on living, breathing opponents? I doubt any of them do. Any proof for them like tournament footage? Same with the kill confirms, though those have to be low committal too or they don't mean anything.

Either he plays safe and loses because the opponent's pokes are 2-3x more effective or he risks it all on average combos and gets combo'd waaaay harder then he could ever combo them. How do you work around being garbage?

Uair isn't even that good at comboing, chiefly because of the puny hitboxes. Wouldn't be overpowered at all with damage equal to Marth's, even in a vacuum. 9% in the best case scenario isn't good in any way when most of the time it's only 6%.

 

How many of those combos work on living, breathing opponents? I doubt any of them do. Any proof for them like tournament footage? Same with the kill confirms, though those have to be low committal too or they don't mean anything.

Either he plays safe and loses because the opponent's pokes are 2-3x more effective or he risks it all on average combos and gets combo'd waaaay harder then he could ever combo them. How do you work around being garbage?

Uair isn't even that good at comboing, chiefly because of the puny hitboxes. Wouldn't be overpowered at all with damage equal to Marth's, even in a vacuum. 9% in the best case scenario isn't good in any way when most of the time it's only 6%.

Watch any of Ryo's matches lol. He actually has won games against Dabuz's Rosalina as Roy and uses him in tourney quite a lot. Actually do some research on **** before you trash talk.

Lmao, puny hiboxes? You have to be trolling.

 

Watch any of Ryo's matches lol. He actually has won games against Dabuz's Rosalina as Roy and uses him in tourney quite a lot. Actually do some research on **** before you trash talk.

Lmao, puny hiboxes? You have to be trolling.

I have. There's nothing notable there, nothing that makes up for the combined cost of it's unsafeness and Roy's fragility. Lots of 'em are still easily DIable.

When it comes to jumping at somebody it's pretty poor since it leaves his bottom half exposed and has very little horizontal range. It's garbage at catching people above him because it's both pathetically weak and difficult to land. Marth or Corrin's are hard to land (doesn't stay out long, can't be spammed AKA whiffing means the opponent is landing) but are very powerful to make up for it, whereas something like Pit's is absurdly disjointed and stays out forever but doesn't really kill. Roy's is as hard to land as Marth's and even the strong hit is weaker then Pit's. Unless it was literally Sheik's Fair otherwise the trade-off of sucking as a normal Uair otherwise ain't worth it.

 

I have. There's nothing notable there, nothing that makes up for the combined cost of it's unsafeness and Roy's fragility. Lots of 'em are still easily DIable.

When it comes to jumping at somebody it's pretty poor since it leaves his bottom half exposed and has very little horizontal range. It's garbage at catching people above him because it's both pathetically weak and difficult to land. Marth or Corrin's are hard to land (doesn't stay out long, can't be spammed AKA whiffing means the opponent is landing) but are very powerful to make up for it, whereas something like Pit's is absurdly disjointed and stays out forever but doesn't really kill. Roy's is as hard to land as Marth's and even the strong hit is weaker then Pit's. Unless it was literally Sheik's Fair otherwise the trade-off of sucking as a normal Uair otherwise ain't worth it.

Oh look someone bashing one person's character and at the same time praising their own.

 

Captain Falcon needs to be lower on the Tier IMO. Don't get me wrong, I am a Captain Falcon main, and do you think I like him lower on the Tier? of course not! .
but I DO feel captain Falcon is quite lacking in everything that made him viable in Vanilla SSB4. His meta game post patch is simply not up to par, as his combos are to predictable, and moves have far to many lag frames, and even worse recovery than in Brawl. take Brawl Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost and compare it to SSB4 Captain Falcon's for example. 4 Falcon's air speed is actually slower than it was in Brawl. I think that people have bad memories of how good C. Falcon was in vanilla SSB4 and still try to put him higher on the tier and what not, but he is almost non existant in high competetive matches and below average performances. I have no intensions of riffing on someones play styles or any of that, this is my opinions and observations only.

 

Oh look someone bashing one person's character and at the same time praising their own.

probably one of the best things I have ever read XD
good job!